mudcat.org: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


Unaccompanied Trad Groups

GUEST,Pat Coburn 05 Apr 10 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,PhilB 05 Apr 10 - 04:50 AM
Dave Hanson 05 Apr 10 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,oldnickilby 05 Apr 10 - 05:34 AM
tijuanatime 05 Apr 10 - 05:42 AM
Acorn4 05 Apr 10 - 06:09 AM
Acorn4 05 Apr 10 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Erich 05 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Liz 05 Apr 10 - 06:47 AM
tijuanatime 05 Apr 10 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 05 Apr 10 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Erich 05 Apr 10 - 10:12 AM
Nick 05 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM
Dave Hanson 05 Apr 10 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Erich 05 Apr 10 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 05 Apr 10 - 01:00 PM
Surreysinger 05 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM
Tootler 05 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 05 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM
Valmai Goodyear 05 Apr 10 - 03:03 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Apr 10 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,Jim Redfern 05 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 05 Apr 10 - 04:17 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Apr 10 - 06:03 PM
Valmai Goodyear 06 Apr 10 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,Hesk 06 Apr 10 - 05:19 AM
Howard Jones 06 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM
MikeL2 06 Apr 10 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 06 Apr 10 - 06:03 AM
The Borchester Echo 06 Apr 10 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,padgett 06 Apr 10 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Hesk 06 Apr 10 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 07:14 AM
Ruth Archer 06 Apr 10 - 07:43 AM
tijuanatime 06 Apr 10 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 08:34 AM
MikeL2 06 Apr 10 - 09:30 AM
Ruth Archer 06 Apr 10 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 06 Apr 10 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 11:19 AM
Ruth Archer 06 Apr 10 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 11:43 AM
Ruth Archer 06 Apr 10 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,CS 06 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Pat Coburn
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:40 AM

What has happened to this genre?There just don't seem to be any to challenge CBS and this isn't healthy.Any recommendations?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,PhilB
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:50 AM

The Claque

www.wildgoose.co.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:34 AM

Ever heard of The Wilson Family and The Copper Family ?

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,oldnickilby
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:34 AM

There are lots of us singing in this manner, its just that we dont have pushy agents and most of us like singing for the sheer pleasure it gives, not the cash.
We have our own "Second Saturday"sing that regularly gets in excess of 20 singers (sorry invitation only as it is at our home)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: tijuanatime
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:42 AM

Hex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:09 AM

The "Young-uns" would seem to fit the bill aptly here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:10 AM

...oh, and of course our local outfit "GU4"!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM

Yes , Hex of course, and Pennyroyl, Ninepenny Marl. Just visit UK-folkfestivals and avoid the main stages.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Liz
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:47 AM

I agree with Dave, the Wilsons were the best thing we saw in 2009


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: tijuanatime
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 09:08 AM

Notts Alliace and Craig Morgan Robson .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 09:11 AM

God save me from 'Unaccompanied Trad Groups'! In my opinion a few 'Unaccompanied Trad Groups' ('folk choirs') from the 60s and 70s have a lot to answer for. Dirgey harmonising and sickeningly hearty, unmelodic bellowing spring to mind.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:12 AM

@ Shimrod:

talking about Young Tradition, Watersons, Folly Bridge, Songwainers, etc. ????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Nick
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

Do Hissyfit and Two Black Sheep and a Stallion count?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:38 AM

I'd never heard of Hex but I listened to ' White Cockade ' from them, very very good.

Ah, Craig Morgan Robson, say no more, I've been in love with Carolyn Robson since I first heard her on a Kathryn Tickell CD.

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:58 AM

Another "girlie group"
The Witches of Elswick - wow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 01:00 PM

'Guest Erich',

'No names, no pack drill' as they say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM

Guest Erich - Sadly I think the Witches disbanded some while ago. Shimrod - dirgey CBS and the Wilsons certainly ain't!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM

Shimrod
You have no soul IMHO! The Watersons have been at the top of the tree for nigh on 50 years and deservedly so. Are English Tapestry's contrived harmonies more your taste?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM

Take no notice of Shimrod. He regularly complains about people harmonising in choruses and also about people joining in with the refrains in ballads. In fact I get the distinct impression he doesn't really like people joining in at all when he is singing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

I must say that I'm rather dismayed that YOU believe that I "have no soul", Mr Gardham! As an admirer of your scholarship I'm a bit nonplussed!

Bearing in mind that I've been careful not to mention any names, it's surely all a matter of taste(?) As someone who has steeped himself in English Traditional song, for at least 40 years, I happen to think that the tradition is mainly a solo one, in which words and melody are paramount. In my opinion it doesn't lend itself well to a group treatment - especially one involving harmonies - which, to my ear at least,tend to 'fill in' all the delightful twists, turns and intervals in the melodies. All my favourite performances over the years have been solo ones.

Again, in my opinion, the 'folk choirs' have introduced some supremely irritating affectations and mannerisms into the Revival - i.e. dirgey choruses, 'hearty' bellowing etc. If I have to sit through another endless, dirgey chorus with lots of pra ... sorry, people, 'harmonising', I swear I'll stand up and scream at the top of my voice - AAAAARRRGH!!!! - and, perhaps, even run amok with a machete (probably not, though, as I'm not given to impromptu acts of violence).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:03 PM

Here's an interesting article in 'Musical Traditions' about the Millen familiy of Kent - scroll down to find it. Like the Coppers, they have a current family tradition of singing in harmony and the article briefly explores its origins. It mentions the Batt Brothers of Kent, too, who also sang in harmony.

I heartily endorse the recommendation of The Claque. Here they are on YouTube at Cheltenham Folk Festival 2009. The sound is not very good quality, but it gives an idea of their distinctive style.

Valmai (Lewes)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:36 PM

Ah, Shimrod, perhaps it is a bit shallow to accuse someone you don't know of having no soul on the basis of one statement. If harmony singing, the solitary example given above excepted, was not part of the older tradition there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that it should not be a new tradition brought in from other genres. Actually it was very much part of the town scene in earlier centuries. They used to call the songs they sang glees and they were often shorter (e.g., Coppers' Spring Glee). All of the harmony groups mentioned above bring a great deal of pleasure to a wide number of people, me included. Surely you can't fault, for instance, The Voice Squad?

Here's a little anecdote that might interest you. I have 2 sons in their 30s. At no point in their upbringing did we thrust folk music down their throats. They went through all the usual phases, heavy metal etc., and both have a healthy interest in a wide range of music today. High up amongst their favourite artistes are the Watersons. In fact a very favourite track is 'The Earsdon Calling-on Song', which to some might sound rather dirgy.

I too, as you must know, have steeped myself in traditional song for the last 45 years, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying and appreciating relatively new traditions, or even current music, in fact music from any genre.

You have obviously indulged in this tradition of using pseudonyms, taking a leaf out of the CBer's book no doubt! I do accept that it is an ancient tradition and I have done it myself on occasions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Jim Redfern
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM

Amen to The Claque,Valmai.They are exciting,wild and unusual with off the beaten track songs and harmonies that bend like rainbows and always gold at the end.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM

Shimrod, I might add it was the inspiration of the Watersons' singing that caused me c1965 to record all my family's songs and go out into the East Riding with a tape recorder and record the sort of songs they were singing from the people who could still remember them. I don't ever recall Fred Jordan or Walter Pardon criticising what the Watersons were doing with the songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:17 PM

It's not the Watersons themselves that I object to - as it happens I recall enjoying their early 'Frost and Fire' recording for Topic very much (not so keen, perhaps, on their later work - matter of taste again). It's the EFFECT that their stuff (and that of some of their contemporaries) seems to have had on many of those who sought to emulate them. In some circles, what is to my ear, a somewhat grotesque parody of these groups is almost de rigeur - and seems to me to have moved the Tradition rather a long way from the singing of such luminaries as Fred Jordan and Walter Pardon!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:03 PM

So? There are still very many solo singers, the groups simply add to the variety, nay even add extra dimensions. They in no way are trying to emulate the singers of the past, they are taking the material to a new dimension and I might add to new audiences, as are those who use instruments and modern technology. If we don't do this we are simply saying the music is nothing but a museum piece. Anyone is entitled to treat the music in this way, but tradition is about evolution, not stagnation.

Personally I'm not in favour of arranged harmonies or choirs singing folk song, but I'm prepared to accept that we wouldn't have the song 'Three Score and Ten' in the folk repertoire if Filey Fisherman's Choir hadn't taken it up. I quite like some of these large shanty groups and I do like some stuff choirs sing but I agree with you it doesn't suit folk song IMO. I personally love harmony singing and I love the unarranged natural harmonies of most of the groups mentioned. The sugar-sweet girly stuff is not my taste but that's just personal preference. I can still appreciate what they are trying to do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 04:48 AM

Tabbush Sisters

Notts Alliance


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Hesk
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:19 AM

Shimrod must have an awful time of it being driven to distraction on such a regular basis. How embarrassing for performers to feel the sheer hate emanating from him, at times like this.
It rather confirms my view that there is a lot of intolerance out there.
A longtime ago I decided to listen and try to enjoy all performances, regardless, especially if they are being provided for no reward. I am a little more critical if I have paid to see artists, but that is the beauty of festivals, you can vote with your feet without offending anyone, by going to the bar!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM

I think it's unwise to be dogmatic about "the tradition", as if it were uniform and unchanging. It may be true that most singers sang solo and unaccompanied, but there were exceptions, such as Bob Roberts who sang with melodeon. Harmony singing may not have been common, but it certainly existed - the Coppers and the Millens are probably the tip of a lost iceberg. Harmony singing and fuguing are certainly part of the Sheffield Carols tradition.

Folk singers did not exist in an isolated bubble, cut off from other influences. They were exposed to the popular music of the day, as well as religious music, which included harmonised arrangements of the type found in West Gallery music and the Sacred Harp in the US. Many folk musicians had some formal musical training, in church bands and choirs or perhaps the military, and some could read music. Also, don't forget that brass bands and concertina bands were an important element of many working-class communities. I suspect that a great many traditional singers and musicians were better musically educated than many present-day folkies. It would be surprising if some of these influences didn't affect the way some performed their more traditional songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: MikeL2
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:45 AM

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Hesk - PM
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:19 AM

Hi hesk

I agree with you entirely. I cannot understand why so many people are so died-in-the-wool ungrateful if the music being watched/heard is not of their particular choosing.

Like everybody I have my own particular likes and dislikes but I am always prepared to watch other people with different ones.

As you say it is particularly obtuse if the performers are unpaid and doing their best.

Performers need support, not churlish indifference or worse still outright objection by a ( thankfully ) minority of people.

The real worry for me is that in my experience most of the moaners do not actually play or perform themselves.

Cheers

MikeL2


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:03 AM

"Shimrod must have an awful time of it being driven to distraction on such a regular basis. How embarrassing for performers to feel the sheer hate emanating from him, at times like this."

Hang on! Who said anything about "sheer hate"? Irritation, perhaps (but then I am an irascible old git). Nevertheless, I'm entitled to my opinion - even if it happens to be contrary to that of other people (what are you, 'Hesk' - some sort of 'heresy hunter'?).

MikeL2 informs us that "Performers need support". Yes, I don't deny it - but they also need honest criticism - otherwise they don't develop. What some of them may want (but don't necessarily need) is slavish adulation - as happens in the infantile world of popular music. One of the things that attracts me to the folk world is that it tends to me to be a bit more grown up than that.

And, ML2 I am a (modest) performer myself and I've always valued honest criticism - I've occasionally been criticised by other performers who I greatly admire - and always ended up the better for it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:20 AM

most of the moaners do not actually play or perform themselves

Sweeping and contradictory.

There are those who certainly play competently though not in public performance because they do not feel they are adequately rehearsed, or have sufficiently honed performance skills.

Which has precious little to do with "unaccompanied trad groups" which the OP somewhat improbably believes to be thin on the ground when actually you can't step without falling over them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:45 AM

"sheer hate emanating from him,"

Rant mode on:

My tolerance for knee-jerk hysterics "rape, murder, fire!" at the slightest expression of a personal opinion that isn't total fawning sycophancy on this board, is becoming exceedingly low.
I get absolutely sick of hearing people being personally attacked and bitched at simply for saying they don't dig a type of music. Do get a grip folks it's a board for discussing folk music, this means that hopefully, a *variety* of opinions will be aired!
Also, do give performers the credit of not having such desperately fragile egos that they are going to "burst into tears" if they happen upon a lone critical comment on a folk discussion board. It's terribly patronising. They're big grown-up people, not ickle kiddies.
Making a great big deal out of it, can only be embarrassing.

Rant mode off.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:52 AM

Holmevalley Tradition and probably now John Cocking and Will Noble

No doubt the Noble Family (Will/Cuthbert/Lydia and Pippa before long)

T'Owd Chyvers newly formed, The Keelers, Young 'uns mentioned already as was GU4

Three Score and Ten,

The Sheffield Carollers in many pubs at Christmas
duos like Webber/ fentiman

Plenty going on!

Watersons and Derek and Dorothy Elliot [Yorkshire Relish] with Parky and Nadine and Melody early inspirations!! and Swan Arcade

CBS, Tams and Coope

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Hesk
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:00 AM

Perhaps "sheer hate" was unfortunate, try "barely concealed disapproval".
Guest CS seems to be defeating his own argument, if he is asking for a variety of opinions, as he doesn't seem to be able to tolerate mine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:05 AM

It's a discussion board for discussions about FOLK MUSIC, where a variety of opinions about FOLK MUSIC - rather than personal comments about other posters - is hopefully to be desired. Ask Joe Offer if you don't believe me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:14 AM

PS Hesk, my rant there was general, and not directed at you personally. Not trying to start an argument here. I've just found myself frustrated of late at what I see as an unhelpful (and even oppressive) tendency on this board. I'll leave this poor thread to get itself back to topic now... :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:43 AM

[OT]

"Also, do give performers the credit of not having such desperately fragile egos that they are going to "burst into tears" if they happen upon a lone critical comment on a folk discussion board. It's terribly patronising. They're big grown-up people, not ickle kiddies."

Depends on the performer. For some it will roll off their backs; others find the endless samey barrage of sneering and abuse they receive on certain folk message boards dispiriting and upsetting. I know, because they've told me. It's not an intrinsically more informed or appropriate stance for you, Crowsister, to decide that these people ought to be able to take a bit of criticism and abuse because of the career they've chosen, than it is for others to defend them. Especially as, in the folk world, the boundaries between the artists and the paying public are not nearly so strongly delineated as they are in many genres. These people are not some remote "artists" shifting "product" - they are real people. We have a pint with them, we might put them up after a gig. They (and their families, and their partners, and their kids) might be our friends.

[/OT]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: tijuanatime
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:27 AM

......., meanwhile, in response to the OP:

Muldoon's Picnic


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:34 AM

"than it is for others to defend them"

Defending someone's work is one thing, personal attack directed at an individual for expressing a critical opinion about either an artist's work or a particular style or technique, is another thing. The folk world is clearly quite unique though as you say, it's very close-knit and everyone seems to be close friends with or related to someone else! I've not got used to that degree of familial intimacy yet, especially on an arts related internet forum. But I will give your points some thought..

I still feel people shouldn't be personally attacked for expressing their opinions, though for my own part it would make much more interesting (and less confrontational) reading if posters made an effort to express their more critical comments in a considered or thoughtful fashion, rather than as bald statements of objective fact.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: MikeL2
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 09:30 AM

hi shimrod

I think we are together on this.!!

I realise that constructive criticism and at the right time ( not as the performer is on stage )is healthy.

I was really responding to remarks made here and in earlier threads about some members of folk audiences showing obvious signs of discontent at some performers, especially if they are not playing what they see as "their music".

I have seen it happen in the clubs around here on many occasions. It is not clever and it certainly is not constructive.

I too have been criticised by other performers but in a helpful way with recommendations how to improve.

cheers

MikeL2


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 09:37 AM

"Defending someone's work is one thing, personal attack directed at an individual for expressing a critical opinion about either an artist's work or a particular style or technique, is another thing."

Well..it kind of depends what form the original "criticism" took, doesn't it? If someone, for example, said that another artist's music made them want to throw up, is their own music then fair game for harsh (but open and honest) criticism?

I rather think it is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 09:43 AM

I'm with you, CS.

If you go back to my original post, I deliberately didn't personalise it and tried to concentrate on a particular style which I am not very fond of rather than specific performers. In subsequent posts I perhaps went a bit over the top with irony and 'dramatic exaggeration' - but that's just my sense of humour.

And, it bears repeating, there's a big difference between personal attacks and genuine criticism.

'Borchester Echo' expresses some of my frustrations very neatly: "[ML2's opinion that, "most of the moaners do not actually play or perform themselves"] has precious little to do with "unaccompanied trad groups" which the OP somewhat improbably believes to be thin on the ground when actually you can't step without falling over them."

It's probably the all-pervasiveness of the bellowing, dirgey harmony groups, and their influence, that irritates me the most - I could probably cope with the odd one or two.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:03 AM

"is their own music then fair game for harsh (but open and honest) criticism?
I rather think it is."

But your example is not relevant to what I've said.

I was objecting to *personal attack* based on the expression of a critical comment of *music*. In this instance we have Shimrod being accused of "emanating sheer hatred" towards poor hapless harmony groups (to be fair to the poster who made that comment, he has retracted it, but it was that post which prompted mine in response).

Discussing music -IMO- includes being able to criticise an artists work - or a style of presentation or a technique and so-on. You may see no difference between personally attacking an individual and criticising the music they make, but I do. As do the moderators of this board, which was the point I raised above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:19 AM

"If someone, for example, said that another artist's music made them want to throw up, is their own music then fair game for harsh (but open and honest) criticism?"

PS, I think that any artists music is 'fair game' for criticism, whether or not they have expressed a rough dismissal of another's work. Anything in the public arena is fair game as far as I'm concerned. But that's the point I've been making all along. You disagree for the reasons you've stated. We differ. But as said, I'll think about the points you've made.

Also as said however, I'd much prefer to see considered and thoughtful critical posts than bald statements.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:30 AM

"Anything in the public arena is fair game as far as I'm concerned."

But in Mudcat World, it often seems that only the output of people with the temerity to gain a media profile or acceptance within the folk mainstream is regarded as fair game, whereas anything produced within the little circle of regular Mudcat contributors, largely amateur and attracting small-scale audiences, becomes a rather embarrassing exercise in mutual masturbation, regardless of quality.

IMHO, of course.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:43 AM

Well, I agree that amateur enthusiasts support one another enthusiastically. And that could be seen as too much sometimes. But IMO you're not comparing like with like.

I'm sure you praise the kids at school for doing well when they write a really good story, but a Phd. student will expect a stricter assessment of their work than that a twelve year old might be expected to receive (I don't know what age you teach, I'm just trying to illustrate a point)

I like to cook, and if I host a dinner party I'd hope the guests won't be comparing my amateur offerings to something someone like Heston would conjure up. They'll be comparing what I cook, to what our mutual friends cook.

Same diff between a singaround filled with amateurs at your local boozer, and an album produced by a professional artist who might be headlining major festivals and be up for a national award or something.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:08 PM

While I see your point, I am describing an almost diametrically-opposed phenomenon. I have occasionally observed at Mudcat a desire to tear down anyone who achieves success, which seems to be linked to a churlish, resentful, "we're just as good/better than they are, if only we had the breaks/the publicist/the agent/the desire to be successful" attitude. It's utterly self-delusional, but it seems to keep the perpetrators happy.

Case in point from an earlier post on this thread:

"There are lots of us singing in this manner, its just that we dont have pushy agents and most of us like singing for the sheer pleasure it gives, not the cash."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:09 PM

Actually there is quite a lot of criticism of 'standards' - and I agree with *some* of what Jim Carroll says about folk clubs where there are paying audiences for example. And Borchester Echo tends to express similar views.

I feel amateur clubs (be they water-colourists showing at the local library, home bakers making cakes for the fete, or folkies having a singaround in the upstairs function room of a pub) aught not to be compared to, or judged by the same standards as, professional artists, chefs, or musicians.

I know others feel differently about that. But that's my take.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM

"I have occasionally observed at Mudcat a desire to tear down anyone who achieves success, which seems to be linked to a churlish, resentful, "we're just as good/better than they are, if only we had the breaks/the publicist/the agent/the desire to be successful" attitude."

Fair point.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 28 November 12:17 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.