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Why shout 'MacIntire'?

DigiTrad:
OLD DUN COW


Related threads:
Lyr Add: The Old Dun Cow Caught Fire (H Champion) (14)
(origins) Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!) (46)
Lyr/Chords Req: The Old Dun Cow (11)
Lyr Req: MacIntyre? / The Old Dun Cow Caught Fire (3)
Old Dun Cow- Looking for a recording of this (26)
Lyr Req: Old Dun Cow (34)
(origins) Origin: Old Dun Cow (32)
Lyr/Chords Req: The Old Dun Cow (7)
Chords Req: Old Dun Cow (5)
(origins) Lyr Add: When The Old Dun Cow Caught Fire (10)
Lyr Req: The Old Dung Cow? / Old Dun Cow (7)
Tune Req: Old Dun Cow (15)
Chords Req: Old Dun Cow (9)
Lyr/Chords Req: Burning of the Old Dun Cow (19)
Lyr Req: Old Dun Cow, other verses (7)
Recordings of 'Black & Tans' and 'Old Dun Cow' (21)


GUEST 28 Aug 21 - 06:22 AM
Vic Smith 26 Aug 21 - 02:14 PM
Tattie Bogle 24 Aug 21 - 06:31 PM
Johnny J 23 Aug 21 - 06:32 PM
leeneia 23 Aug 21 - 06:08 PM
Richard Mellish 23 Aug 21 - 02:43 PM
The Sandman 23 Aug 21 - 12:20 PM
leeneia 23 Aug 21 - 11:35 AM
Mr Red 18 Dec 15 - 03:54 AM
GUEST,Grishka 17 Dec 15 - 07:03 PM
Abby Sale 17 Dec 15 - 06:00 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 15 - 05:29 PM
The Sandman 17 Dec 15 - 05:04 PM
The Sandman 17 Dec 15 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Hollowfox at work 17 Dec 15 - 04:26 PM
Lighter 17 Dec 15 - 04:16 PM
The Sandman 17 Dec 15 - 12:09 PM
Tattie Bogle 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM
Lighter 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM
Lighter 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 15 - 08:32 AM
Mr Red 17 Dec 15 - 06:56 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 15 - 06:07 AM
The Sandman 16 Dec 15 - 06:59 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Dec 15 - 04:43 PM
The Sandman 15 Dec 15 - 04:37 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 15 - 04:11 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 15 - 04:09 PM
The Sandman 15 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 15 - 03:15 PM
The Sandman 15 Dec 15 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Jim Ward 15 Dec 15 - 06:47 AM
Tattie Bogle 15 Dec 15 - 05:22 AM
JHW 15 Dec 15 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Thorne 14 Dec 15 - 06:24 PM
The Sandman 14 Dec 15 - 05:44 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM
GUEST 14 Dec 15 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Add to confusion 20 Nov 15 - 11:28 AM
The Sandman 14 Sep 12 - 08:47 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 12 - 07:31 PM
Bugsy 12 Sep 12 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Sep 12 - 10:30 AM
The Sandman 10 Sep 12 - 09:19 PM
The Sandman 10 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 Sep 12 - 12:01 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Sep 12 - 06:45 AM
YorkshireYankee 29 Jul 12 - 11:19 PM
Nigel Parsons 29 Jul 12 - 12:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 21 - 06:22 AM

Free Toast sure and Our Souls in another song...


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Aug 21 - 02:14 PM

As well as the more famous shout of MacIntyre, it some places it was obligatory to make another interjection - so that after the line: -
...Mopping up the whisky on the floor.

You would hear the words Slip, slop, slip.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 06:31 PM

Gosh, I'm surprised that this has generated quite so many posts, some of a learned, even academic nature, others purely facetious. Me, a simple soul, I have never questioned it, just bellowed "MacIntyre" at the right moment, along with anyone else in the room who has heard the song before!
A bit like shouting "free toast" in Rolling Home, after that line about "let the toasts go free".


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 06:32 PM

Ach, an old pal "Ben" used to sing this all the time at Edinburgh Folk Club in the eighties.
I never realised the McIntyre meaning until now.
;-)


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 06:08 PM

That's funny. When I brought this thread up, it had only two posts on it. Now it's longer.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 02:43 PM

> it occurred to me later that MacIntire is (or is purported to be) cockney rhyming slang for 'fire.'

Suggested and disproved earlier in this thread.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 12:20 PM

Macintyre?


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 11:35 AM

Mudcatter Gayle sang this at the singaround, and it occurred to me later that MacIntire is (or is purported to be) cockney rhyming slang for 'fire.'

I thought MacIntire was spelled with a capital E.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 03:54 AM

(:-)


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 07:03 PM

Here is a couple of snippets from "The Era", London, dating the song precisely, and also allowing a glimpse on the show business of that time, not any less tough than today:
Saturday, 30 September 1893
Advertisements & Notices
When the Old Dun Cow Caught Fire, Chorus by C. B. and H. Villiers, Verses by A. E. Ellis, Music by Geo. Le Brun, should be a good Song, shouldn't it? MR CHARLES BIGNELL is Singing the above Song Nightie at THE LONDON PAVILION and ROYAL, HOLBORN. Lawyers' Letters invited. Agents, Didcott and Co.

Saturday, 07 October 1893
WHEN THE OLD DUN COW CAUGHIT FIRE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE ERA. Sir,-Will you kindly allow me space respecting the above song? Mr Charles Bignell, in your last issue, extensively advertised same as being his property, which somewhat amuses me, considering I am the author and composer of same. I thought of the idea of The Pub on Fire on Aug. 29th, then I wrote the chorus, and took it up to Mr Bignell; but not feeling disposed (in a monetary view) to await his time bv taking two or three days to write the verses up, I went and sold the song to Mr Harry Champion the same night, and this gentleman sang the song at Greenwich on Sept. 7th. Trusting you will insert this in justice to Mr Champion, who holds my assignment, I am, faithfully yours,
HARRY WINCOTT. 19, Longville-road, Newington

Saturday, 21 October 1893
WHEN THE OLD DUN COW CAUGHT FIRE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE ERA. Sir,-I regret having to trouble you again, but Mr Ellis, by his letter in your last issue, seems to imagine that I was alluding to his integrity when giving my explanation of the above. This is not so, as I am perfectly aware that when Mr Bignell commissioned him to write the song up he was ignorant of the fact that he would be writing up verses to my idea and chorus; and, as far as going to say he can prove that Mr George Le Brunn composed the music to their work, this I don't dispute, because I know that Mr Le Brunn did do so. Mr Fred. Eplett has since written another melody, which makes No. 5 who have had a finger in the pie, but I don't wish to insinuate that either Messrs Le Brunn, Eplett, or Ellis would intentionally wrong me. As Mr Ellis knows, music hall song writers are not paid exorbitant prices for their wares, and when an author strikes upon something original, it is not pleasant to lose the advantages from it. I have witnesses both in and out of the profession to prove that I wrote this chorus, and submitted it to Mr Bignell, who took a great fancy to it. I didn't care to take two or three days to write the verses up, hence my selling same to Mr Champion. In conclusion I might add that I was told the idea of this song would be written up, but I did not think the words of my chorus would be included. Trusting I have now fully explained miself to all concerned, I am, Sir, yours faithfully
HARRY WINCOTT. 19, Longville-road, Newington
(Not a full explanation to my taste. Who exactly wrote the verses sung by Champion?)


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 06:00 PM

See John Orford & Jim Ward above. Both correct.

Wincott was a very popular music hall song writer and wrote many for the hugely popular singer, Harry Champion. Since it was recorded by Harry in 1911 we can presume Harry wrote it specifically for Harry and likely Harry'd been performing it for years.

I have the recording on a Champion CD. It it sung very much faster than we ever hear it today and is somewhat longer. It isn't hard to believe that some ancestor Copper (Bob's father?) actually heard Champion sing it and came away with what he remembered. Or else some other singer in the area did and so taught it to Copper, Folk Processing.

As above, it's originally "somebody said to M." in the words on Harry Champion; Cockney Bill of London Town; WindyRidge CD; 1911 & 2001. I like it.

AIR, it's "old stale beer" but changing it to the beer of the day or some brand the singer doesn't like seems reasonable.

I can't help but imagine that Wincott based it (loosely) on some local newspaper article of a pub fire (a tragedy anywhere, nearly as sad as Deportee).


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 05:29 PM

On the Harry Champion recording could the "when I was just like this" be a polite replacement for something else that rhymes with "miss" ?

Is the tune used now like that, or more like the Coppers' version?


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 05:04 PM

"somebody shouted back inside..." was it the actress TO the bishop


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 04:54 PM

"somebody shouted back inside..." was it the actress and the bishop


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Hollowfox at work
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 04:26 PM

Some years ago I heard (was it Tony Barrand and John Roberts?) sing "somebody shouted back inside..." This made excellent sense to me.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 04:16 PM

Nobody has shown that "MacIntire" meant "fire" to anybody until after the song was repopularized by the Coppers.

To say that "MacIntire" means "fire" seems to be rationalizing after the fact. Particularly since Wincott himself clearly needed another name or word to rhyme with "fire."


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 12:09 PM

well it could be interpreted as rhyming slang mcintyre equals fire.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM

Bring on "the sharks they played melodeons".
Not the only part of that song that gets messed about!

As for certain actions done during "Wild Mountain Thyme" in some quarters......a panting sheepdog, Lassie, And so on......

And the more recent song to have odd interjections introduced into it is Keith Marsden's "Funeral Song" - when it gets to the line about "they had to send for extra chairs", people start piling up all the chairs in the room, more each time the chorus comes around, until there is a very unsteady monument of them! How disrespectful! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that - pending sheet music from the 1890s, which may not be discoverable - the original question has been reasonably answered.

They presumably shout "MacIntire" because of the folk process (in this case, mishearing).

It has the advantage of making sense, which no other explanation seems to.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that - pending sheet music from the 1890s, which may not be discoverable - the original question has been reasonably answered.

They presumably shout "MacIntire" because of the folk process (in this case, mishearing).

It has the advantage of making sense, which no other explanation seems to.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 08:32 AM

Back to your [appropriately named?] Black Cuntry with you, Mr Sanguinary-tinted!


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 06:56 AM

Nurse, Nurse, he needs the medication, quick.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 06:07 AM

To what? We're talking about The Spinners -- not you just for once, Dick. Not like you to be so anally egocentric!


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 06:59 PM

funny actions?I plead not guilty.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 04:43 PM

I thought at the time Peter Brough & Archie Andrews -- based on US Charlie McCarthy Show I think -- a very odd thing to do on radio.    But at least there were two voices, even tho one knew it was just one man putting on two voices; and even if one couldn't see the puppet one could appreciate the humour of the dialogue. Not really quite the same thing as doing funny actions -- visual gags -- for laughs on the wireless, eh Dick?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:37 PM

why not,after all wot abaht the wireless ventriloquist
Peter Brough (26 February 1916 – 3 June 1999)[1] was an English radio ventriloquist who became a well-known name to audiences in the 1950s. He is associated with the puppet Archie Andrews.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:11 PM

... and anyhow that was a radio broadcast. They wouldn't have done visual gags on the radio, would they?


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:09 PM

'Recorded off air from an edition of "My Kind of Folk", broadcast in 1968'

it sez below that video, Dick -- very early in Spinners' career. The finger-popping, eye-shading &c silliness, which I have myself seen them perpetrate, obviously came later. I fear your Not Guilty verdict somewhat premature.

Regards
≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWLMRiHhyQk The Spinners, they get blamed for everything, not guilty.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:15 PM

At least The Old Dun Cow is a comic song, so doesn't come to too much harm with a bit of (although imo insufferably irritating) flippancy, which might just perhaps have been a tiny bit amusing the first 900 times, but stretched as it has been to ∞...

Whereas I think that what has been done to Pleasant & Delightful, with all the finger-popping, looking in opposite directions, & other such fatuous histrionics to ruin a beautiful song ···

Yuk! The very thought of it makes me want to throw up -- & fantasise about finding out the original perpetrator and kicking him severely in the testicles. Did somebody say it was The Spinners? Even if they didn't originate it, they proliferated it; and should be bloody-well ashamed: a real blot on an otherwise deservedly admired and respected group.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 01:09 PM

How disgraceful, people enjoying themselves shouting out, and its all the fault. of the Coppers, the people processing Folk Music and they never asked permission, perhaps we should have a seance and contact Wincott and see what he thinks.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Jim Ward
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 06:47 AM

The original lyrics as recorded by Harry Champion for the Columbia Graphophone Company in December 1911 clearly state "somebody said to MacIntyre" so MacIntyre was told by somebody not to "let 'em in".
Back in the early days of folk clubs, around 1960, HMV issued a compilation LP called "A Jug of Punch". One of the tracks on this LP was "When the Old Dun Cow Caught Fire" sung by Bob and Ron Copper (with banjo accompaniment!!). They had learned the song from Bob's father Jim Copper and somewhere along the line their chorus had become "somebody SHOUTED MacIntyre" As recordings of folk songs were pretty rare at this time every song on this LP was soon done to death in the folk clubs and the tradition of the audience shouting out MacIntire soon established.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:22 AM

Not so well known in some quarters. I've mainly heard it dahn sahf where everyone knows it and everyone shouts Macintyre. So when someone did sing it up here, I was the only eejit who shouted Macintyre....but the rest soon caught on, and by the end of the song, everyone was doing it! You can't stop the force of nature among folkies!


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: JHW
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:03 AM

'somebody said mcintyre is not going to stop people shouting out mcintyre...they have been shouting it out since at least 1965'
cf the shouting out of 'fine girl you are' or 'our souls' in the relevant songs.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Thorne
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 06:24 PM

It was written by Harry Wincott, but I'm not sure if any of his lyrics survive -- love to see 'em if the have!

From a quick search it looks like Champion's lyrics and song recordings are the earliest, hard to say.
http://monologues.co.uk/musichall/Songs-W/When-Dun-Cow-Caught-Fire.htm

Wincott may have written the song for Champion to perform - http://www.harrywincott.co.uk/songs.htm


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:44 PM

an example of a popsong being folk processed and possibly becoming traditional, people seem to enjoy shouting macintyre.
somebody said mcintyre is not going to stop people shouting out mcintyre or mac entire, thay have been shouting it out since at least 1965.


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM

For the record ---

"When the Old Dun Cow Caught Fire is a music hall song written by Harry Wincott in 1893"

'Mainly Norfolk' website

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:10 PM

Check out the original recording, where he clearly sings,

"Don't let 'em in 'till its all mopped up,
Somebody said to McIntyre..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPxW62EkPvk
Song starts at 2:57


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Add to confusion
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 11:28 AM

Just stumbled across this old thread looking for something entirely different (thanks Google).
Though I originally heard this as McIntyre, I have also heard it sung as "somebody shouted back inside, so we all got..." Possibly got corrupted to McIntyre???


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 08:47 PM

barry..who..do u mean bary mc entire


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 07:31 PM

did anyone just think to ask Barry ?


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:34 AM

I've always sung it using the words a la Harry Champion listed below

Someone 'said' to MacIntyre.

Seems to make more sense

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 10:30 AM

You're definitely onto something, Schweik, but Mac was probably a dog, not a Scotsman. Don't they use the word 'entire' that way at dog shows?


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:19 PM

obviously this naked scotsman who was on fire had not been gelded or circumsised, thus the reference to entire, or in full possesion of all his equipment


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM

why not shout macentire,
perhaps it was a code to the others that there was a naked man presumably scottish who needed to be covered with a blanket because he was on fire and naked.
im sure its mac entire rather than macintyre , because it makes more sense.
so a naked scotsman who had caught fire, needed to be covered with a blanket.
true or false


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:01 PM

The Trumpton Fire Chief, IIRC, isn't given a name. perhaps he was McIntyre?

Oh, no ~~ checking back, he was called Captain Flack. Oh well -- it was just an idea.


It was on a quiz show recently (probably 'Pointless') to name the fire crew. Captain Flack was the lowest score. But one team got it wrong by naming 'Hugh'


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 06:45 AM

Re 'Public Domain' ~~ Of course 'Trumpton', from which BBC Children's programme come the men whose names are used by Nigel, isn't in the public domain. But I don't imagine anyone is going to sue him over his adoption of 'Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grubb'. Trumpton was, after all, a fire station, and these were firemen...

The Trumpton Fire Chief, IIRC, isn't given a name. perhaps he was McIntyre?

Oh, no ~~ checking back, he was called Captain Flack. Oh well -- it was just an idea.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:19 PM

Thanks, Nigel. Will report back when I do... (won't be right away, though; all the folk clubs 'round here don't meet in August).


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 12:24 PM

MGoH:
Alternatives are acceptable. I take it you'd put two notes on '-ful'?

As I said, I consider it Public Domain, so the 'folk process' can come into play.

But ...
Anyone adding verses, please post them here!


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Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM

Nice one, Nigel. Especially the chorus.

If I sang it I might be inclined to sing
"In colourful black and white"

instead of

"In monochrome (that's black & white)"


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