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Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst

Related threads:
Lyr Req: Holst 2nd Suite in F (19)
Lyr Req: I Vow To Thee, My Country (4)


Joe Offer 06 Aug 99 - 02:11 PM
Peter T. 06 Aug 99 - 03:24 PM
Elsie Wollaston, University of B.C. Library 06 Aug 99 - 03:29 PM
Joe Offer 06 Aug 99 - 03:47 PM
Peter T. 06 Aug 99 - 04:21 PM
Joe Offer 07 Aug 99 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,alex elliot 29 Jul 00 - 06:42 PM
Snuffy 29 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM
Gervase 29 Jul 00 - 07:10 PM
Lanfranc 29 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 00 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Sheila 29 Jul 00 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Sheila 29 Jul 00 - 08:03 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 00 - 08:23 PM
Mary in Kentucky 29 Jul 00 - 08:38 PM
Mary in Kentucky 29 Jul 00 - 08:53 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 00 - 09:05 PM
Mary in Kentucky 29 Jul 00 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,Sheila 29 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM
Mary in Kentucky 29 Jul 00 - 10:05 PM
GUEST,Sheila 29 Jul 00 - 11:35 PM
alison 30 Jul 00 - 12:48 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Jul 00 - 02:13 AM
alison 30 Jul 00 - 02:19 AM
alison 30 Jul 00 - 02:42 AM
Mary in Kentucky 30 Jul 00 - 10:13 AM
Barbara 30 Jul 00 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Sheila 30 Jul 00 - 12:11 PM
Liz the Squeak 30 Jul 00 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,Burke 30 Jul 00 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,Sheila 30 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM
alison 31 Jul 00 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,Fingers 01 Aug 00 - 04:43 PM
alison 01 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 17 Sep 01 - 10:34 PM
Anglo 18 Sep 01 - 01:56 AM
IanC 18 Sep 01 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,johnashw 07 Sep 06 - 12:22 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Sep 06 - 12:34 AM
Mooh 07 Sep 06 - 11:51 AM
Ringer 07 Sep 06 - 12:41 PM
Mo the caller 07 Sep 06 - 12:50 PM
Malcolm Douglas 07 Sep 06 - 09:46 PM
Liz the Squeak 08 Sep 06 - 12:59 AM
masato sakurai 08 Sep 06 - 02:02 AM
The Walrus 08 Sep 06 - 02:18 AM
Bunnahabhain 08 Sep 06 - 04:28 AM
Ringer 08 Sep 06 - 06:21 AM
Malcolm Douglas 08 Sep 06 - 05:02 PM
Malcolm Douglas 08 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM
Ringer 11 Sep 06 - 09:05 AM
Desert Dancer 12 Sep 06 - 01:07 AM
Desert Dancer 12 Sep 06 - 01:31 AM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Sep 06 - 09:42 AM
John E 31 Dec 07 - 11:32 PM
masato sakurai 01 Jan 08 - 07:26 AM
Malcolm Douglas 01 Jan 08 - 08:01 AM
Surreysinger 01 Jan 08 - 02:07 PM
John E 05 Jan 08 - 07:28 PM
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Subject: Hymn by Holst
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 02:11 PM

I suppose I could find it with half an hour of research, but does anybody know the hymn that has a tune from Holst's "the Planets"? I think it was sung at Princess Diana's funeral. I keep meaning to learn it, but I keep forgetting the name of the darn thing. Can anybody help?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:24 PM

Joe, the hymn is called "I Vow To Thee My Country", but I can only remember bits of the words. I think the words came first, and were set to the music (which was independent). I could be wrong. This is a very old mental file card.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Elsie Wollaston, University of B.C. Library
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:29 PM

While I'm posting this from a reference desk in a biomedical library, so can't give Joe the lyrics he needs, the title of the hymn is "I Vow To Thee, My Country". It was sung at both Diana's wedding and her funeral. Hope this is some help.


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Subject: Lyr Add: I VOW TO THEE, MY COUNTRY
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:47 PM

Thanks - that's a start. I think there's another hymn to the same tune, though, with lyrics on a theme other than patriotism. Am I wrong?
Click here to get to the tune.
-Joe Offer-

I Vow to Thee, My Country


I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love:
the love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
that lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
the love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
the love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
we may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
and soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
and her ways are ways of gentleness and all her paths are peace.

Words: Cecil Spring-Rice (1859-1918), written January 12, 1918.

Music: THAXTED. Gustav Holst (1874-1934). The Planets, composed in 1914-16,
and first performed in September 1918. It is an arrangement of the the _Jupiter_
section of his orchestral suite.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 04:21 PM

Are you suggesting that hymns to Britain are mere patriotism, and not expressions of religious fervour (check out verse 2!)!?
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 99 - 04:34 AM

her ways are ways of gentleness and all her paths are peace
I'm glad you chided me into taking a closer look at that second verse, Peter. It's really powerful.
Still, not meaning in any way to disparage partiotism, I'm wondering if there's another hymn sung to that tune.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,alex elliot
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 06:42 PM

I've searched for other lyrics to this tune to no avail. However, given that Holst, like so many other British composers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, he often borrowed his tunes from existing folk traditions, so it is very likely that somewhere there are others words to this melody, perhaps a church hymn perhaps not. Alex Elliot.

Converted from all uppercase. --JoeClone, 21-Jan-02.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM

I can't find any other words to the Holst tune, but there is another tune for "I vow ...". It's by Ralph Vaugha-Williams, and is called ABINGER - not nearly so well known. Holst's tune was copyrighted 1921, RVW's in 1931.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:10 PM

Holst's tune is stunning though - little wonder it's up in the top five requests on Desert Island Discs; although sadly it tends to be the crusty old right-wingers who go for it.
Nevertheless, this is one old leftie who loves the hymn.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Lanfranc
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM

Holst was reputed not to have appreciated the words that were added to his tune. Perhaps he, like me, found the first and second verses contradictory.

Perhaps we should just sing the second verse.

"Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:30 PM

Holst wrote the tune for Christina Rossetti's "In the Bleak Midwinter." He also did the modern arrangement for "On This Day Earth Shall Ring," although the tune originally came from the 1582 Finnish hymnal, Piae Cantiones.
As for "I Vow To Thee My Country," I have to say that it beats the hell out of "The Star-Spangled Banner." Charlotte Church did a wonderful recording of "Vow to Thee." I doubt she could do the same with "Banner."
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:54 PM

Joe, could you tell who wrote the beautiful words that were read, and which came up on your "click here" at the funeral? Thank you. Sheila


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 08:03 PM

Sorry-that was poorly worded. The words that were read at the funeral, I meant.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 08:23 PM

Hi, Sheila - the British Government still has the order of service for Diana's funeral here (click). It appears to be a transcript of every word sung or spoken at the service - but the words in question are not attributed.
Actually, when I posted the link I posted above, it played the tune by Holst. I guess that part of the Web page is gone now.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 08:38 PM

Hi Joe, this has been one of my favorites since I heard it at Diana's funeral. I make a practice of reading the hymnals when I attend a service at different churches. (Today I read the Baptist hymnal at a funeral.) I've always loved everything Ralph Vaughan Williams had anything to do with, and it seems that he harmonized many of the hymns in the Anglican hymnal, many of them from old English folk tunes. (See the Star of the County Down Thread.) I can't remember if he did I Vow to Thee My Country, but I think he and Holst were contemporaries, and it seems that Holst also liked the old folk music. Anyway, I couldn't hear a tune at your link, but I did find the tune at Catholic Book of Worship III - Hymn Tunes - 555-580 Praise and Thanksgiving under the name O God Beyond All Praising and the tune name Thaxted.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 08:53 PM

Hi Sheila, I found lots of references to the words when I typed the first line in a google.com search. However, I only saw where they were by anon and unknown. Boy, they sure wrote some good stuff.

Mary


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Subject: Lyr Add: O GOD BEYOND ALL PRAISING
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 09:05 PM

Ah, Mary, I'm forever in your debt. I forgot about the hymnals I left in the car. I found it, and it's quite nice.
-Joe Offer, who also pages through hymnals during services-
O GOD BEYOND ALL PRAISING
(text: Michael Perry, 1982; tune: THAXTED - Gustav Holst)

O God beyond all praising, We worship you today.
And sing the love amazing That songs cannot repay.
For we can only wonder At every gift you send.
At blessings without number And mercies without end.
We lift our hearts before you And wait upon your word.
We honor and adore you, Our great and mighty Lord.

Then hear, O gracious Savior, Accept the love we bring.
That we who know your favor May serve you as our king.
And whether our tomorrows Be filled with good or ill,
We'll triumph through our sorrows And rise to bless you still.
To marvel at your beauty And glory in your ways,
And make a joyful duty Our sacrifice of praise.

©1982, Hope Publishing Co.

Aw, I think I'll leave it an instrumental. The tune seems more inspiring than the words.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 09:33 PM

Hello again Joe, I like this version at The Classical Midi Connection. (I usually don't link directly to a midi, but it's 4. Jupiter, the Bringer of Jollity-sequenced by Jack Deckard...and it helps to fast forward about 3 1/2 minutes to get to the good part. Incidentally, I never appreciated any of Holst's stuff until I heard this at Diana's funeral. I was always a pre 1850 snob, and even though many young band students kept telling me about the modern stuff, I never really paid any attention.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM

Mary, that is a beautiful site for hymns, but when I tried to listen to some more, I lost it. What is the URL? Many thanks. Sheila


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Subject: Hymn Links
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 10:05 PM

...hmmmmmm..Sheila, do you mean this one at the link above? http://members.aol.com/diosg2/555-580.htm

Acutally, there are much better sites for hymns.

The Cyber Hymnal http://www.tch.simplenet.com/

Catholic Contemporary Hymns http://members.tripod.com/~kcrowell/christian.htm

Hymnsite http://www.hymnsite.com/

Southern Harmony http://www.ccel.org/s/southern_harmony/sharm/sharm/

Then of course, I like to just search using The Midi Search Engine http://www.musicrobot.com/

Mary


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:35 PM

Mary, thank you! You've got me singing away. Lucky folk in Kentucky to have you! Thank you, as always, Joe. Sincerely, Sheila


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: alison
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 12:48 AM

I heard a great Holst piece recently (classical radio station).... and can only vaguely remember the title which I think was "St Paul's suite" which he wrote for an orchestra at a girl's school... it is basically a collection of folk tunes.. sounded lovely

thaxted / I vow to Thee/ Jupiter is a fabulous piece, as is the tune Joe mentioned for "In the bleak Midwinter"...

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 02:13 AM

Yes, Holst stole the tune - it was Thaxted before it was Jupiter. Thaxted is a village in Essex, not far from Dunmow (the Dunmow Flitch song/story) and Saffron Walden, which, oddly enough are also hymn tunes, although Dunmow is not done very often now....

I like the tunes, but I really don't like R V Williams' habit of giving everything an English name. Star of the county down became Kingsfold - another little village, this one near Redhill. Funny how Shitterton, Piddlehinton, Elk's Crotch and Intercourse never seem to get tunes named for them.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: alison
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 02:19 AM

Looked it up.. it was St Paul Suite written in 1913 for the String Orchestra of the girls at St Paul's School, Hammersmith, London, where Holst was musical director. (according to the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music).

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: alison
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 02:42 AM

Found a site with some pretty bad Holst MIDIs... but it gives you the idea

you'll need to scroll away down the page to find the MIDIs... check out the 2nd suite in F (Fantasia on the Dargason) this is part of the St Paul suite.. and is basically "the Irish washerwoman" and "greensleeves"

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:13 AM

Thanks Alison. That brought back memories. It seems that here in the US most high school band directors are exposed to the band arrangement for the 2nd Suite in F when they are in college. Then they like to try it out on their high school bands when they become teachers. (High school is kids about 14 or 15 years old to 18 years old.) When I was in HS (many years ago), I played first clarinet, and the band director threw this one at us to sight read. I tried to play the Irish Washerwoman while he directed the baritones in Greensleeves. Needless to say, it was a disaster, but pretty.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Barbara
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 11:29 AM

He also wrote the Christmas/Advent Hymn "Personet Hodie", didn't he?
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 12:11 PM

Good morning. If it's not too far off this thread, how do these hymns get their names: eg, "Thaxted," "Dix," etc.? Sheila


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 07:34 PM

A lot of them are names of Welsh and English villages and towns - guess the composer/plagerist likes the sound of them. At least one I know of was named for the town it was written in. Vaughn Williams plageruised a lot of Irish tunes and gave them English names because a) the Irish gaelic was to him, unpronouncable and b) because when he was composing and collecting, Ireland was still a land deeply troubled. To have anything to do with Ireland or Irish things was not considered politically correct.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Burke
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 08:03 PM

Mostly the composers or arrangers give the tune a name. In English hymn singing the old practice was for words & music to be written & even published separately. The hymn writers (ie poets) like Newton or Watts would write words & possibly suggest an existing tune to be used. The pairing was not fixed & anyone could write another tune or use a different existing tune of the same meter with the words.

Tune composers or arrangers would publish their music & give a verse or 2 of a hymn that fit & may have been the words they had in mind when composing. Any hymn of the same meter could be put with the tune.

This practice means the tunes themselves need a name to help distingish them from each other. I've sung with some folks who use word only hymn books (Lloyds). Sometimes a hymn will be called & you just have to pick up the tune by listening, but at other times the number of the hymn is given then the name of the tune to be used will also be given. Names could reflect the words being set, a place where the composer lived or was working at the time, a Biblical location, a theological concept, a friend, you name it.

Look at the Southern Harmony in the message above. It was published more as a tune than a word book, although it does give more words than some other tune books. The title on the pages give the tune names with the words being less important. The earliest indexes might not even have had a first line index! Some examples on the home page: Coronation was written as a setting for All hail the Power of Jesus Name. The title reflects the chorus - And Crown him Lord of all. Sweet Rivers really is the first words of the hymn. Pisgah is a Biblical Location. The book only provides one verse but there are 4 in the Sacred Harp so maybe Walker thought his singers would know the rest of the words. Resignation is a folk hymn that has different words and different harmonies in the Sacred Harp & goes by the name Irwinton, no idea where the name inspirations came from. New Britain is the tune we usually refer to as Amazing Grace but was published in other contemporary books with different names and words. I think Green Fields is from the existing folk (fiddle?) tune that it's based on. Captain Kidd certainly is.

One thing that can get confusing is that a tune name might be used for more than one tune by different writers. I noticed Southern Harmony has 2 Christian Soldier's (different words), 2 Come, ye disconsolate's (same words), 2 Nashville's (no.1 has much better words in Sacred Harp).

Another place to see examples of tune names is the Sacred Harp index (sorry no music)

BTW. Another effect of the word/tune pairings being optional is that in modern hymnals though the pairings are set in the book, the words you know are not necessarily with the tune you know or vice versa.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM

Dear Liz and Burke, V-E-R-R-R-Y interesting! Thanks a lot. Sheila


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: alison
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 02:47 AM

Barbara... yes he did.. it's at that links site, we sang it at school as "god is love, His the care"

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,Fingers
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 04:43 PM

Liz The Squeak wrote "To have anything to do with Ireland or Irish things was not considered politically correct"

Then how do you account for "Slane"? Many of the place names attached to tunes were where there were first recorded by the collectors, hence "Monksgate" for "Our Captain Cried..", "Kingsfold" for "Dives & Lazarus".

I just know this is going to put some noses out but not every great tune with an Irish name or lyrics came out of Ireland. With the Irish visiting England as mercenaries, sailors,navigators, nurses, programmers for 800+ years (and for a few hundred before that as saints and scholars)it would be surprising if they didn't take a few songs and tunes home and file off the serial numbers.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: alison
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM

Slane (Be thou my vision) is a fantastic Irish tune

as are:-

Durrow, (can't rmember the hymn name)
Clonmacnoise (Christ be in me,.... part of St Pat's breastplate)
Moville (Christ is the world's redeemer)

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:34 PM

I am refreshing this because somebody was asking about it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Anglo
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:56 AM

I just came across this refreshed thread. Liz the Squeak wrote "Yes, Holst stole the tune - it was Thaxted before it was Jupiter."

Certainly Holst harmonized and arranged many English folk tunes - there's a section of his arrangements (and one of RVW's) in English Coubty Songs" but I've always understood that Thaxted was his. Some wag wrote to the effect that it was the only real tune he ever wrote, and even then he didn't finish it. (In Jupiter, it doesn't get the final resolution, but goes off into the little motifs that get passed around from instrument to instrument).

So where does your info come from, Liz?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: IanC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:36 AM

LTS/Anglo

I'll give you a clue. Gustav Holst was living in Thaxted, Essex when he wrote the tune for "I Vow To Thee My Country". The story is, in fact, quite well documented here, for example, and is available on the wall of Thaxted church where Holst worshipped (and where I first read it years ago).

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: GUEST,johnashw
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:22 AM

It seems, if I remember rightly, that I was part of a group that sang "God is Love and where true love is God himself is there" to the tune THAXTED.

Does anyone know where I might find the score for sucha paring?

Many thanks!

John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:34 AM

Somewhere in my myriad hymn books I have the tune for 'I vow to thee' noted as 'Thaxted' and the composer as 'English Trad'. Now this hymn book was very popular for use in schools and I would suggest that they would have done everything possible to credit correctly.

I can't remember the name of it, but it's the blue one.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:51 AM

As others have said, Thaxted is usually attributed to Holst, but he wouldn't have been the first to borrow a traditional melody for use in an orchestral work. The attribution may have more to do with the gathering, transcription, and harmonizing of the melody than of the written melody itself.

It doesn't appear in later Canadian Anglican hymn books, unfortunately. It's a stong enough tune to warrant modified or different verse. I don't find the old verses as jingoistic as lots of others and I like the melody better than say, Jerusalem (which I like fine).

Sampling has a long and proud history, except it has been mitigated somewhat recently by way of copyright/copywrite/copyrite and litigation around recorded sources. Mind you, I find Holst's sampling much more skillfully done than what pollutes modern pop music.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:41 PM

Slightly off topic: my hymnbook has a beautiful tune, Herongate, attributed to RVW. It sounds like every English folk-song I know. Does anyone know (a) if it is based on a folk-song, and (b) which one?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:50 PM

'the blue one' is Songs of praise 'edited by Ralph Vaughan Williams'


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 09:46 PM

As has already been said, 'Thaxted' was so named because that is where Holst was living when he wrote it. I don't know of any evidence that he based it on an existing tune; though naturally he was familiar with traditional idiom, having -for example- set songs collected by Dr George Gardiner quite early in his career.

A few songs were collected in Thaxted by Clive Carey and George Chambers between 1911 and 1921, all from a Mrs Hollingsworth. When I have time, I will check those I have access to to see if there is any connection; there is always the possibility that received wisdom is not accurate.

RVW noted several songs in Herongate, from several singers; which one is meant here I don't know. What was the hymn set to it?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:59 AM

RVW also named tunes after the village he was living in... Kingsfold is the name he gave to 'Star of the County Down' and just happened to be where he was living at the time.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: masato sakurai
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 02:02 AM

Listen to my midi trascription of Holst's arrangement of "Masters in This Hall."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: The Walrus
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 02:18 AM

Way back at the begining of this thread, Joe asked if there were any other hymns to "Jupiter" (or should that be "Thaxted"? - I'm getting lost here) - Well, not a hymn, but the Same theme was used for "The World in Union" for the Rugby* World Cup a few years back and re-appeared at at least one other international series.

W

* Union rather than League.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 04:28 AM

Simon Richie, from Thatxted, has a recording of this tune on one of his CDs. I belive he may know a bit aboput it if you can get hold of him..


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 06:21 AM

Malcolm: the first line of the hymn set to Herongate is "It is a thing most wonderful".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 05:02 PM

RVW usually named tunes from the places where the people who sang them to him lived (or where he met them), not where he lived himself. Kingsfold, for instance, was where Mr Brooker lived. On 23 December 1904 RVW noted a variant of the old 'Dives and Lazarus' tune from him; he sang the murder-ballad 'Maria Martin' to it.

By the same token, Herongate (in the borough of Brentwood, Essex) is a place where RVW got a fair few songs, from three singers in all. None that I have seen exactly match the hymn book tune; I think that in this case we may have a tune "epitomised" from two similar variants: one from Mr Broomfield, a woodcutter, and the other from an unidentified maid at nearby Ingrave Rectory; she came originally from Chigwell. Mr Broomfield sang a version of 'Died for Love' to his tune, and the unknown maid sang 'In Jessie's City', which shares floating verses with it but belongs to the 'Sheffield Park' / 'Butcher Boy' side of the family. Both were printed in The Journal of the Folk-Song Society, II (8) 1906, 158-9.

RVW met up with Mr Broomfield on four occasions; variously at the Dog at East Horndon, and the Cricketers Inn at Herongate. He got 'Died for Love' from him there on 22 April 1904. RVW indicated that Mr Broomfield actually lived at West Horndon, adding: "Mr Broomfield is well known as a singer and has been known to go on for hours when well primed". In view of the recent thread traditional singers: beards, & guinness, it's also worth noting that he sang with his eyes tight shut, and generally spoke the final line of each song.

(Ref. Michael Kennedy, The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams, appendix Two, 'Folk Songs collected by Vaughan Williams', 649-651.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM

I should also add that it's misleading to say that RVW called Star of the County Down 'Kingsfold'; although the former song is set to a variant of the same tune, the words are 20th century (Cathal McGarvey) and hadn't yet been written when the Hymnal was first published.

See previous discussions, including  Tune Kingsfold, where I mentioned that the tune was another one that RVW got at a pub; in this case The Wheatsheaf at Kingsfold.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Ringer
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:05 AM

Thanks, Malcolm.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:07 AM

Coincidentally, the latest (Autumn 2006) EDS/English Dance & Song magazine of the EFDSS has an article entitled, "Folk songs and hymn tunes," which focuses on Ralph Vaughan Williams and The English Hymnal.

The article says (as has been said here) "...RVW's tune titles usually refer to the villages and towns where the original melodies were collected."

Also it refers to "...'Kingsfold' (EH 574), an arrangement of 'Dives and Lazarus' as printed in Broadwood and Fuller-Maitland's English County Songs (1893) here set to the words, 'I heard the voice of Jesus say'...."

And: "A curate of Dearmer's [the head of the committee in charge of the hymnal] at Primrose Hill was Conrad Noel, the socialist and neo-medievalist who championed folk singing and morris dancing at Thaxted Parish Church, Essex, with the help of RVW's friend and colleague Gustav Holst."

Hey, Malcolm, you probably got this issue faster than I did, eh? (I just got it today.)

Funny thing is, this article was written in the U.S. :-)

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:31 AM

Darn. Lost an < /em >. Didn't mean to be quite so emphatic.

~ B in T


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:42 AM

Yes, my copy arrived a few days ago. I'm puzzled by Julian Onderdonk's reference to the set of 'Dives and Lazarus' in English County Songs; that was a tune noted in 1892 by A J Hipkins "in Westminster", with words noted (apparently) in Middlesex. RVW got a perfectly good version of the tune at Kingsfold. I'll have to compare them, I guess, to see if there was some collation of the melodies that would account for the comment.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: John E
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:32 PM

I am refreshing this one because I'm looking for the tune to Thaxted. Can't find it in my millions of hymnbooks, or in anyone else's either. Maybe in yours?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 07:26 AM

Two hymns are set to the tune of Thaxted at The Cyber Hymnal.

I Vow to Thee, My Country

Mighty God, Come Build Your Mighty Church


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 08:01 AM

There was a bit of a delay while I got hold of a copy of the Hymnal; the treble edition, with tunes, which was most widely printed I think. Unfortunately, you only get full indexes in the 'Complete Music Edition', as it turns out, so it takes time to locate tunes in the book by name. More delay, and then other things intervened.

Now the thread is back, though, I'll just mention that I did compare the 'Dives and Lazarus' tunes, and 'Kingsfold' is indeed the form got in Westminster and printed by Broadwood and Fuller Maitland, not the variant that RVW himself got in Kingsfold; so his naming convention was evidently a bit more elastic than I originally thought; though still logical.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 02:07 PM

First time I'd seen this thread!

I was interested in the references to Kingsfold, and "Dives and Lazarus". I haven't gone back to check my notes, but I notice you've made reference to the words for the song being collected in Middlesex, Malcolm. In fact from memory I think Lucy actually found the words in a Book of Days (I suppose it's possible that they may have been collected in Middlesex prior to that?) - the tune up to then had been known only as "Lazarus" and had no accompanying words . Lucy happened to find the words of "Dives and Lazarus" in the aforementioned book , which married rather happily with the tune,a match almost made in heaven, and the two were consequently published as one entity in "English County Songs". Unless I'm much mistaken David Gregory has probably made reference to this in his recent article for English Dance and Song - again, I'm talking off the top of my head here, without reference to notes or publications, and stand to be corrected....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hymn by Holst
From: John E
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:28 PM

"the Hymnal; the treble edition, with tunes . . ." Do you mean The English Hymnal? I don't know if I have that, but it would be what I'm looking for - sheet music, that is - b/c I want to arrange it for mandolin and whatever. I'll look. Thanks


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