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BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?

Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 10 - 06:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 10 - 06:54 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 07:02 AM
Emma B 02 Mar 10 - 07:11 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM
Emma B 02 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 10:35 AM
Bat Goddess 02 Mar 10 - 10:52 AM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Mar 10 - 11:49 AM
Amos 02 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM
John MacKenzie 02 Mar 10 - 12:15 PM
Amos 02 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM
theleveller 02 Mar 10 - 03:11 PM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM
akenaton 02 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM
Leadfingers 02 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM
akenaton 02 Mar 10 - 04:49 PM
catspaw49 02 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 04:59 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Mar 10 - 05:39 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 05:47 PM
Sorcha 02 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM
skarpi 02 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM
gnu 02 Mar 10 - 06:19 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM
Sorcha 02 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM
gnu 02 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 07:56 PM
Leadfingers 02 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Mar 10 - 08:07 PM
Leadfingers 02 Mar 10 - 09:01 PM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 09:52 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Mar 10 - 03:46 AM
gnu 03 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM
skarpi 03 Mar 10 - 08:16 AM
skarpi 03 Mar 10 - 08:22 AM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM
mauvepink 03 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM
skarpi 03 Mar 10 - 10:46 AM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM
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Subject: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM

Is personal responsibility still seen as being something important enough that we *must* ensure our children know about it? Or, do we now live in an age of Blame Culture, where it is 'never *my* fault', in any way whatsoever, no matter what the circumstances.

I was taught to be responsible for my actions, and was told some actions may bring consequences that I might not like. Thus, I was taught to avoid taking those actions in the first place.   I knew I had to learn to be in control of them rather than the other way round.

Anyway, that's just me, and my upbringing, but I've also passed that outlook on to my children, because I feel taking personal responsibility is an important lesson to learn and something you should carry with you all your life long.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:23 AM

Y E S


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:54 AM

Lizzie, tell your kids about taking care, by all means, but if and when one of them is unlucky enough to meet the wrong guy, I do sincerely hope you will not be saying:-

1. "I told you so"
2. "It's your own fault, you wouldn't listen to me"

And for God's sake, don't take that admirable sense of being responsible for what happens to you into court. If you do, you may have to accept, later on, your own responsibility for the perpetrator being acquitted.

Could you really live with that, and would you want any other mum to have to?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:02 AM

If you are talking about 'rape' here, Don, relating to the other thread, then of course, if that ever happened to either of my children, I'd be outraged. HOWEVER, if, through wrong decisions they had made, utterly stupid and unbelievable behaviour they had shown, then I would hope they would be able to learn from those mistakes, and be sure to never again put themselves into a similar position.

My kids have guts, and they are able to look at themselves 'from the outside, in'. It's something I taught them when they were very young, to first of all have respect for yourself, to be able to view yourself from the point of view of others, and to never put yourself into a dangerous situation, unless there is absolutely no choice, in which case, do the best you are able.

I was taught to never take a short cut through a dark place at night, or even during the day, if I was on my own. I was taught to always stay close to houses, to take the routes where the houses were, in case I needed to get help, if I was out on my own.

I am not talking about situations where, through absolutely NO fault of their own, awful things happen to people, male or female. I am talking about choosing to take the decisions that keep you safest, and if you do make a mistake, or behave stupidly, then have the guts to admit it, kick yourself for it, just the once, and accept the help from everyone around to move on from it, whilst learning from it at the same time.

With all due respect, Don, this is NOT a thread about rape, but about personal responsibility, and whether we should be teching our children about how important it is....or not...depeneding on your outlook on life.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:11 AM

Les Barker expresses it so much better than me -

Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O.
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM

Well, some of Les Barker's works are better than others. The one you quote, Emma, doesn't strike me as having anything of very much profundity to say [& the pun on which it is based is pathetically ancient]. Do you really think quoting it was any sort of intelligent contribution to this thread?

If so, to cite one of my favourite quotes in return, Lorelei in Anita Loos's 'Gentlemen Prefer Blondes': "Goodness how sad".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM

"Do you really think quoting it was any sort of intelligent contribution to this thread?"

Actually I thought it was very much in keeping but - there you go!

Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:35 AM

Perhaps, Emma, it would be a good idea if you took personal responsibility for being a right pain in the whatsit, for not being able to resist constantly putting the verbal boot in with snidey comments, no matter what I write about.

Thank you so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:52 AM

I think a lot of personal responsibility died a long time ago. I know my first husband never took responsibility for any of his actions as long as I was married to him (in the '70s). And I think that was encouraged by his parents -- they bailed him out of every spot of trouble he got into until he married me, and then it was my turn. As far as he was concerned, the world owed him. Everyone was happy in their jobs but he, so he was justified in stealing from his employer(s). After 10 years of supporting him financially and emotionally, when I tried to extricate myself from the marriage, as far as he was concerned it was okay to try to kill me because he "loved" me so much. Stealing business checks from a friend and forging them was "writing bad checks". Nothing was ever his fault. Including his alcohol addiction.

Maybe that attitude is more common now. It certainly is in political circles.

Lord knows I've made mistakes, but I'm the first to admit them.

Right now, though, I have to head to work. We're understaffed and I have a responsibility to pull my weight.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM

blimey linn, thats heavy going. i think there are just some people like that. most of us are responsible. if we mess up we say sorry. we never set out to hurt or cause trouble for anyone and feel bad when we do.

emma, feel free to carry on posting, i find your posts either informative or amusing. *waves loo roll around like there's no tommorrow*   even though i don't like the song.

when i was going to school, the only way to get there was through the park. i was on a bike but that wouldn't have stopped anyone.
when i moved out i often went for a walk early hours of the morning, laying on a pinic table watching the stars.
while i admit that anything could have happened.i wasn't scared of anything happening.
if something had of, it wouldn't have been my fault for i was laying quietly bothering no one.

it sounds like kids are being scared. staying by houses is no guarantee of being safe, just as being in a park. in fact i would say the park was safer.you never know who is inside a house but can see people coming in the middle of a park.




risk is everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:49 AM

I wonder what most of the posts on this thread, have to do with personal responsibility?
Yes Lizzie you are quite right, people should be taught to be responsible for their actions. We live in a blame culture, which is a sign of an immature society.
Most people give up saying, "It wisnae me", while they stand beside the consequence of their actions, when they grow up.
Likewise the pathetic cry "A big boy dun an' ran awa' Mr"
As I said on another thread, if a child under the age of criminal responsibility commits an offence, then the parent/s should face charges.
Perhaps we could make a new criminal offence of 'Permitting your child to commit a criminal act' Only when people are faced with the consequences of their actions, or lack thereof, will they begin to think about personal responsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM

if a child under the age of criminal responsibility commits an offence, then the parent/s should face charges

I must demur. Having a juvenile hauled into the copshop is quite enough of an embarrassment to the parents usually. Personal responsibility should include doing the best you can learn to do as a parent but the multiplicity of factors that informs juvenile misconduct is in no way an actionable offense of the parents as a categorical conclusion. It may be in some cases and not in others. It would be useful if both parents and juvies had to undergo an education correction, though. Unfortunately, no such course exists, as far as I know.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:15 PM

Ah Amos, only the responsible parents would feel shame. The feckless would blame it on whatever was fashionable to blame things on, at that time ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM

Right, Jock. I feel the pain.

Actually this reveals a hidden upside to the endless stream of guilt-trips and blame-flows instilled by Catholic and Jewish mothers from time immemorial. Although it is ridiculous on the face of it to inform a child that the Infinite Creator of All Existence is somehow terribly concerned about what he does with his wee-wee, or running "when are you going to get a REAL job?" on a 45-year-old author of multiple best-selling novels...it does instill a substitute mental icon on which to anchor a sense of guilt and self-recrimination. Although this is a really, really bad substitute for a genuine, self-generated sense of responsibility, at least it makes people get out of bed in the morning and not do things they would be ashamed of if they had one...until the reactive pressures get too high.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:11 PM

OK, it was me. I admit it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM

maybe our concepts of personal responsibilty vary rather alot.

for me it is how my actions or lack of impact on myself and others.

i cannot and will not take responsibilty for what others might or might not do.

for example, it was my fault i crashed the car even though the wrong road surface was used, because of a lack of training of what to do on a slippery surface. i did the right things, but too much, i oversteered and over accelerated to get out of the slide.
what i don't do is blame the person driving the car i hit for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

however if that person had got out and slapped me, that would have been their responsibilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM

Now Lizzie...don't be nasty to "Em".
You and I have found a subject we agree on, on many we differ.

Emma is just as brave as you and very smart,we agree and disagree but she is 100% fair and a liberal in the true sense of the word.

You cannot say that about many here.

I respect all her opinions; she has caused me to scrutinise my own many a time and gives me a flea in the ear when she thinks I have gone off the rails.

One of my favourite Mudcats!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM

Too many people today have a TOTAL Knowledge of ALL their Rights but FAR too many have NO recognition of ANY resposibilities .


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM

ake, look at who started that. I have no problem with emma saying what she likes, about the subject matter. I have a BIG problem with her often bitchy comments about me, about my intelligence. She chooses to continue to behave this way with me. I did not start any of it.

I take full responsibility for telling her to back off. She needs to take full responsibility for being pretty damn nasty in the first place.

I would have had far more respect for you, had you seen that in the first place.

When some of the prats who follow me around this board, have the guts to apologise, publicly, for their behaviour, then..and ONLY then will I have respect for them.   Until such time, they are 100% responsible for how they behave towards me, and if they get walloped back, please take note that I do not start it and have a right to tell them what I think.

I suggest she keeps the fleas to herself.

Now, I'll leave you to hero-worship, but hey, don't come a PMing me congratulating me for taking a stand against these folks in some other threads, whilst publicly bashing me for doing exactly that on here, because I don't do hypocrites.


And yes, I claim absolute responsibility for being more than a little miffed with your hypocrisy.


Now, back to the thread, which Emma, tried to take off thread with nothing more than cheap sarcasm. Why? Because she has a problem with me. I suggest she thumps a cushion instead, as it's far less boring and far less impolite.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM

Absolutely, Leadfingers.


John, I'm with you on children and parents.   Yesterday there were two young boys, around 9 years old, twins, running down the hill in Torquay, on a really busy road...REALLY busy..and they were playing football, kicking the ball soooo close to the edge of the road..

Maternal instincts crept in...

"Boys, be careful, won't you? This road is so busy, and it's so easy for a ball to fall into the traffic. It could cause a terrible accident. And please, make sure you don't dart into the road after it, because you get badly hurt."

They scowled at me.

Then, they crossed over the road, taking their ball with them.

Next thing I know, I hear a 'scrunch' behind me, turn around but don't see anything...Then, I hear another one..and see a large stone hit the pavement. I look across the road, and there are the twins, one of them already loading up his third stone in his hand.

He froze, literally 'caught in the act'....

"Yeah? Come on then! Throw it at me, and you see what happens! Come ON!" I yelled at him.

He and his brother fled.


Now, ALL I had done was have their safety at heart. I'd spoken to them very kindly, in a soft Mother Hen voice...and I get that for caring about them???

I thought about following them home, going up to their house, but thought better of it, because what would have been the point? Would their parents have listened?


Today, I heard that the Government is seriously considering making it 'compulsory' (don't you love that New Labour word) to prove that you are capable of looking after a dog, owning a dog, to the point where possibly all new dog owners will be forced to sit a written exam before they're allowed to have a dog.



Perhaps they should do the same with some parents!


Better still, just bring in really heavy fines, instantly payable, for parents who bring their kids up to be little shits, and for those who let their dogs crap all over everywhere, or shag everyone else's dogs ad infinitum...'cos I am fair fed up with bad behaviour and this 'anything goes' society...

Hurrummph!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:49 PM

Come on Lizzie...dont be so sensitive!
Of course I agree with the points you have been making, and I did PM you over them.

My post was intended to be light hearted, but Emma is very committed to her point of view, just as committed as you and deserves as much respect as you do...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM

PRAYER IN OPEN D
                      ........Emmylou Harris

There's a valley of sorrow in my soul
Where every night I hear the thunder roll
Like the sound of a distant gun
Over all the damage I have done
And the shadows filling up this land
Are the ones I built with my own hand
There is no comfort from the cold
Of this valley of sorrow in my soul

There's a river of darkness in my blood
And through every vein I feel the flood
I can find no bridge for me to cross
No way to bring back what is lost
Into the night it soon will sweep
Down where all my grievances I keep
But it won't wash away the years
Or one single hard and bitter tear

And the rock of ages I have known
Is a weariness down in the bone
I use to ride it like a rolling stone
Now just carry it alone

There's a highway risin' from my dreams
Deep in the heart I know it gleams
For I have seen it stretching wide
Clear across to the other side
Beyond the river and the flood
And the valley where for so long I've stood
With the rock of ages in my bones
Someday I know it will lead me home




Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM

Speaking of dogs...there was a death of a little girl here from a Rottweiler family dog attack..ripped her face off I believe. It is in the paper that the dog is not going to be automatically euthanised, as any sensible law would insist on, but might be adopted out. I would think that any family with any sense whatsoever would insist on having it killed as soon as required rabies tests are done.   I personally would have said screw the rabies and shot the dog on the spot. Someone today told me about a friend with a drugged out daughter and granddaughter was kept in playpen with cheerios and a pit bull. People are so stupid and so selfish sometimes concerning their pets that laws have to be made to protect us from them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:59 PM

Thanks, Spaw....very moving song...says a great deal.


You respect Emma, ake. That is 100% your privilege. I have no problem with that. But do not tell me to respect her. Thank you.
I don't respect folks who deliberately steam in to be bitchy, for no reason **whatsoever**. Did she contribute to the subject matter of this thread? Nope. That was, imo, a highly unnecessary comment.
We are each responsible for our own actions.


And now, back to the subject matter, I hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:14 PM

Oh, what an awful thing to happen, mg. That poor little girl, her poor family.


I remember once, when I was taking one of my dog's to training classes, there was a Rotweiler there. The trainers wouldn't touch it. The people who owned it were hopeless with it, couldn't hold it on a lead, couldn't control it. It was a HUGE dog which belonged to a slightly odd chap, and his elderly mother. A few weeks later, the man died of a heart attack..and the dog was put out for rehoming, but the trainers said they knew the family line it had come from, and it was known to be a vicious one. They were worried sick about what the outcome would be, but were pretty powerless to intervene.

Dog owners are getting worse and worse, and so many seem to have no sense of any responsibility whatsoever at times...and that comes from a dog owner herself, who loves dogs. They don't understand dogs at all and can't be bothered to control them. Drives me bats.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:39 PM

Oh but my dog is my baby. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:47 PM

So's mine, but he's not allowed to be a pain in the dog butt to any other animal or human. Tigger has 'responsibilites' too. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM

Lizzie, you really don't WANT to start me on dogs. YOU have NO idea so just don't go there. I have known many 'pit bulls' and Rotweillers in my life, all were just sweeties.

It depends ALL on how they are raised. SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?

You seldom seem to know what you are talking about so why should I believe you about this?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM

It depends ALL on how they are raised ,

True Sorcha .....

but where is Joe Offer now ?? are some people more inportant than others
in the Mudcat threads ?

Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads. that was from Emma B

and this is from Sorcha : izzie, you really don't WANT to start me on dogs. YOU have NO idea so just don't go there. I have known many 'pit bulls' and Rotweillers in my life, all were just sweeties.

It depends ALL on how they are raised. SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?

You seldom seem to know what you are talking about so why should I believe you about this?


well if some people can write almost anything in here and some don´t
... I thought this is only for Music related matters .....
or that was I saw in the Joe Offer thread for JM the otherday .

all the best Skarpi Iceland .


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:19 PM

The BS is open to all discussion, skarpi. From what I understand, the site policy is people can post almost anything they want (near as I know, it only precludes personal attacks and libel). And, it's up to the reader to discern the validity and the value of the post.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM

"It depends ALL on how they are raised. SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?"

Seems a slightly rabid response, Sorcha, but each to their own.


"You seldom seem to know what you are talking about so why should I believe you about this?"

You don't have to believe anything I say, that is your freedom of choice. However, what I said about the Rotweiler was absolutely true.

They also, for your information, wouldn't touch Rosie, the little dog I was training. She was sheltie/something cross, and had belonged to my mother. When mum chose to go off and leave her, I stepped in and brought her to live with me. She was badly trained, a bloody nightmare, actually, spoilt rotten, growled if anyone went near the double bed where she used to sleep with my mother.

They didn't touch her, because they knew she was frightened..and only related to me. I had to train all the bad things OUT of her first, get her to realise she was bottom of the pack, not top..then I had to train the good things into her. Took me an age, and she never quite got to the same place as my two dogs, who'd walk beside me with no leads being necessary, who'd sit down every time I raised my hand in the air, no words being needed, who'd lie down too, with a different command. But Rosie improved one helluva lot...and my abiding memory of her will be sitting on the beach in Sidmouth, with her little front paws crossed over, oh so daintily in front of her, as the sun streamed down on her face. She was holding her head up to the sunshine, loving every moment of it's warmth, her eyes tight shut against the brightness. Never have I seen an animal so happy and content. She lived to be 17 years old, as did Badger and Gruffy, although Bluebell (Badger's sister) sadly died at 12, due to spleen trouble.

Oh, and for your information, my friend Julie has a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a white one, a rescue dog, who'd been treated so cruelly. She calls her Angel, and she's as soft and gentle as a baby.

And now, I'll leave you to continue barking madly, but...if you care to apologise, that's fine by me. If not, your words are your responsibility, not mine....so I'll leave them with you.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM

Errr, Skarpi, do YOU know dog stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM

Oh, and Sorcha, whilst my children were growing up, I had four dogs, Badger, Bluebell, Rosie and Gruffy, with Toffee being at the start of their lives, Rosie coming in as they grew older. Throughout it all those dogs went everywhere with us, and I pushed the pram, then the pushchair, with two dogs on either side of me. I walked everywhere, as I don't drive, and the dogs went out twice a day, often right up the huge hill on to the moors, where they'd run free.

Never, in any of those times, did they misbehave towards any other human or animal.

I have had dogs all my life long, never lived without an animal apart from a couple of weeks, between my old cat, Sooty dying, and Ben, a black collie coming into my life. We took him to show our next door neighbours, and they gingerly disappeared to their back room, coming out with the sweetest black and white kitten, which they'd bought as a surprise for me, as they knew how upset I was at losing Sooty, he was 20 when he died.

Sooty had belonged to Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, two doors down..and when their daughter, Helen, had died at just 8 years old, Mrs. Johnson went into deep grief, turning to alcohol. She couldn't bear to have Sooty around her, as he'd been Helen's cat. She used to dress him up and put him in her pram with her dolls..and he was so soppy that he let her do that.

Sooty became a sad cat. Lost and lonely, never allowed in the house....He befriended me, and we'd play for ages together. He never once tried to come into our house, though, as we had a golden spaniel at that time, a dear soul, called Lucy.

When Lucy died, the day she died, Sooty walked in through the back door and he never left. Mr. and Mrs. Johnson gave him to me, with their blessing. She went on to kick the alcohol and get her life back on track, getting a new cat eventually. Sooty never went back there, but stayed with us, where he was loved until his dying day.

So please, don't ever imagine that I know nothing about animals..because they have been my best friends at times...They have comforted me in times of deep grief and always, ALWAYS been there for me, as I have been for them.

Responsibility is not just a himan thing, and my animals have always taken as much care of me, as I have of them.

Just so's you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Yeah, skarpi? You know anything about dogs? Or were you just posting about Sorcha's post?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM

Oops! 'human' not 'himan'...although 'himans' sound pretty interesting. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:56 PM

what have animals got to do with personal responsibilty????

apart from for us to look after and train them that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM

It doesnt matter a Tinkers Cuss how a dog is treated if its badly bred to start with ! As Lizzie said , it IS possible to train a dog out of some traits , but some dogs are just Bad 'uns because of the lack of responsibility of the breeders !
And Sorcha , dont tell me I dont know dogs !


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:07 PM

I don't know dogs. I want them to be comfortable and I respect them but I have no desire to have them sleep on my bed, etc. I do know babies. This family had another Rottweiler taken from them not long ago. I think it has everything to do with personal responsibility..again, there are many low-IQ people out there and their responsibility is lessened, I think anyway, because they perhaps can not think up every scenario. And I am not even talking about the family, but the idiotically stupid government agency that even considers adopting out that dog after it ripped a baby's face off, and killed her instead of putting the dog down right now. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:01 PM

Mary - I agree - My Dad had an English Bull terrier - He REALLY knew dogs ,bit couldnt stop her snapping at ANYTHING ! Turned out she was InBred so , sadly , she was put down - The ONLY course for an InBred dog !


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:52 PM

heck if you lot think a snappy( snappy not dangerous) dog is bad. i hate to think how much you are ranting at that killer whale!!!
mind you, you would be in good company.

that was another tragedy that shouldn't have happened. but the thing is worth alot of money so of course they don't want to kill it!

i agree the behaviour of dogs is down to the owners training. however this shouldn't just be about them.
personal responsibilty is about everything we do.
every choice.
every action.
or things we should have done.
lets not make this just about dogs, that is such a small aspect of the whole subject.

ta x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:46 AM

It is irresponsible of humans to make whales 'perform' in 'baths'. Cruel too, but we are sadly, pretty damn irresponsible as a species.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM

Re my post...

"Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Yeah, skarpi? You know anything about dogs? Or were you just posting about Sorcha's post?"

I meant to clearly point out that skarpi said nothing about dogs in his post. He only commented on Sorcha's post.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:16 AM

Well Sorcha , I am about to have a Husky in my house soon
yes I know a little , and I know that you can train dogs to do almost
whatever you are gonna use them .

you can train him badly or you can go to a good trainer and teach him
well like you said Sorcha , its all about what you are gonna
have the dog for ... .


my message has nothing about what you said about the dog s
but how you said it .

what right do you have Sorcha to tell her to and I copy paste you r own word here :SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?

Tell me Sorcha are you grown up or what ?
a teen may have said something like this but you are an adult ?

I like dogs , and I wish I had have a dog sooner ..
kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:22 AM

are Sorcha words Personal Responsibility?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM

Well skarpi I think you will find that the OP has justified her own use of such language on previous occasions - maybe this observation was not lost on Sorcha and - sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

BTW maybe you would also like to explain your reference to my post of   02 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM in which I commented that I had no wish to refresh a thread that appeared to be simply a continuation / spin off further repetition of a theme in an existing long running thread

"but where is Joe Offer now ?? are some people more inportant than others
in the Mudcat threads ?"


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM

TBH I am of the school that there are no bad dogs or children. Just bad 'owners' (and for the pedants I am not saying our children are our property. They are but loaned to us).

There will always be the occasional exceptions to the rule but most likely if a child or pet is bad look to it's parents or owners as a good start. Budgies don't get put down if they peck you, cats if they scratch you, horses if they nibble you... why do dogs automatically get put down? I have often wondered that one. I know someone with a pet orphaned wolf (which was born about as wild as you can get yet is a pet now).

Mongrels, by definition, have no breedinf... yet they often are the most faithful of animals. I do not necessarily subscribe to the good breeding school. Good teaching - be it manners, response, responsibilities, etc - must surely come from the mentor?

Just some opinions to contribute

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:46 AM

Hallo Emma , yes she may also have been saying things , but I have not notice yet .

If so then they should both behave ......:O)

Emma please tell what this mean ? :Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads.

I may have misunderstand this,.

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM

Skarpi - it meant it was my intention to leave this particular thread as I believed that, as it was basically just repeating and continuing the personal opinion of the OP expressed during many posts on a current long running thread, it was somewhat unecessary in my opinion.
Nothing more - nothing less

I hope that my opinion is as valid as any other posters even if I don't resort to calling them a 'right pain in the whatsit' or 'pretty damn nasty' or other ad hominen 'arguments' :)

However if you think that in some way expressing such an opinion singles me out in some way for you to specifically comment on me as you did ......

"but where is Joe Offer now ?? are some people more inportant than others
in the Mudcat threads ?

'Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads' that was from Emma B'

well if some people can write almost anything in here and some don´t
... I thought this is only for Music related matters .....
or that was I saw in the Joe Offer thread for JM the otherday ."


....... I would be interested to hear why


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM

"Well skarpi I think you will find that the OP has justified her own use of such language on previous occasions - maybe this observation was not lost on Sorcha and - sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!"

Let's get this straight, just for the record, Emma.

First of all, YOU took this thread off thread, with a highly unnecessary remark. You then went on to make another. Neither of which were *anything* to do with me.

Sorcha came in and said what she did, for what reason????????   I had not addressed her, nor attacked, nor was talking about her in *any* way, and yet, she responded to me in the most personal way. She had not even BEEN in this thread. Not only that, but she said what she did for what reason? I told the truth there, that two dog trainers would not touch a rotweiler, because they KNEW his bloodline, and KNEW it contained dangerous dogs. Might I also add that these one of these two women helped the police to train dogs, so she knew what she was talking about.

When I have used th 'f' word, it has been *either* in **response** to vicious and persistent attacks from the usual crowd, OR to highlight how bloody angry I feel at the apathy that has brought this world to the state it's now in.

Had *I* come in here and in response to you first post had said "Emma, why don't you shut the fuck up and get out of this thread!" then you'd have had the right to take me up on that.

I did not.

Your friend Sorcha, did.

I suggest you take the matter up with her, then look up the word Hypocrisy in the dictionary.

Thank you very much.

And now, yet again, back to the subject of this thread, which IS about Personal Responsibility.


Oh, and I do not have to ask *your* permission, Emma, to start a thread, no matter what it is about. You do not have to open a thread, nor take part in it whatsoever, if you are not interested.

May I politey suggest that you stay out of this one from now on, for that very reason, unless, of course, you want to be a hypocrite and just keep coming back and back to re-iterate your point.

Thank you, again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM

Let's get this straight, just for the record
I am replying to skarpi - Thank you


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