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BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?

Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 10 - 06:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 10 - 06:54 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 07:02 AM
Emma B 02 Mar 10 - 07:11 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM
Emma B 02 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 10:35 AM
Bat Goddess 02 Mar 10 - 10:52 AM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Mar 10 - 11:49 AM
Amos 02 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM
John MacKenzie 02 Mar 10 - 12:15 PM
Amos 02 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM
theleveller 02 Mar 10 - 03:11 PM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM
akenaton 02 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM
Leadfingers 02 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM
akenaton 02 Mar 10 - 04:49 PM
catspaw49 02 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 04:59 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Mar 10 - 05:39 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 05:47 PM
Sorcha 02 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM
skarpi 02 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM
gnu 02 Mar 10 - 06:19 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM
Sorcha 02 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM
gnu 02 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 07:56 PM
Leadfingers 02 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Mar 10 - 08:07 PM
Leadfingers 02 Mar 10 - 09:01 PM
jeddy 02 Mar 10 - 09:52 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Mar 10 - 03:46 AM
gnu 03 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM
skarpi 03 Mar 10 - 08:16 AM
skarpi 03 Mar 10 - 08:22 AM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM
mauvepink 03 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM
skarpi 03 Mar 10 - 10:46 AM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Mar 10 - 12:05 PM
Leadfingers 03 Mar 10 - 12:47 PM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM
skarpi 03 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Mar 10 - 02:46 PM
Amos 03 Mar 10 - 03:07 PM
gnu 03 Mar 10 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Mar 10 - 03:32 PM
mauvepink 03 Mar 10 - 04:24 PM
PoppaGator 03 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM
jeddy 03 Mar 10 - 06:03 PM
jeddy 03 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM
Sorcha 03 Mar 10 - 06:44 PM
Sorcha 03 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 07:04 PM
Bat Goddess 03 Mar 10 - 07:43 PM
Emma B 03 Mar 10 - 10:53 PM
skarpi 04 Mar 10 - 03:40 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Mar 10 - 03:55 AM
Emma B 04 Mar 10 - 05:46 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Mar 10 - 06:29 AM
Emma B 04 Mar 10 - 06:41 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Mar 10 - 08:06 AM
Emma B 04 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Mar 10 - 08:43 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Mar 10 - 08:45 AM
Greg F. 04 Mar 10 - 08:52 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Mar 10 - 08:57 AM
John MacKenzie 04 Mar 10 - 09:09 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Mar 10 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,mg 04 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Mar 10 - 06:48 PM
Amos 04 Mar 10 - 07:13 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Mar 10 - 04:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Mar 10 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Mary Brennan 05 Mar 10 - 08:09 AM
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Subject: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM

Is personal responsibility still seen as being something important enough that we *must* ensure our children know about it? Or, do we now live in an age of Blame Culture, where it is 'never *my* fault', in any way whatsoever, no matter what the circumstances.

I was taught to be responsible for my actions, and was told some actions may bring consequences that I might not like. Thus, I was taught to avoid taking those actions in the first place.   I knew I had to learn to be in control of them rather than the other way round.

Anyway, that's just me, and my upbringing, but I've also passed that outlook on to my children, because I feel taking personal responsibility is an important lesson to learn and something you should carry with you all your life long.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:23 AM

Y E S


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:54 AM

Lizzie, tell your kids about taking care, by all means, but if and when one of them is unlucky enough to meet the wrong guy, I do sincerely hope you will not be saying:-

1. "I told you so"
2. "It's your own fault, you wouldn't listen to me"

And for God's sake, don't take that admirable sense of being responsible for what happens to you into court. If you do, you may have to accept, later on, your own responsibility for the perpetrator being acquitted.

Could you really live with that, and would you want any other mum to have to?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:02 AM

If you are talking about 'rape' here, Don, relating to the other thread, then of course, if that ever happened to either of my children, I'd be outraged. HOWEVER, if, through wrong decisions they had made, utterly stupid and unbelievable behaviour they had shown, then I would hope they would be able to learn from those mistakes, and be sure to never again put themselves into a similar position.

My kids have guts, and they are able to look at themselves 'from the outside, in'. It's something I taught them when they were very young, to first of all have respect for yourself, to be able to view yourself from the point of view of others, and to never put yourself into a dangerous situation, unless there is absolutely no choice, in which case, do the best you are able.

I was taught to never take a short cut through a dark place at night, or even during the day, if I was on my own. I was taught to always stay close to houses, to take the routes where the houses were, in case I needed to get help, if I was out on my own.

I am not talking about situations where, through absolutely NO fault of their own, awful things happen to people, male or female. I am talking about choosing to take the decisions that keep you safest, and if you do make a mistake, or behave stupidly, then have the guts to admit it, kick yourself for it, just the once, and accept the help from everyone around to move on from it, whilst learning from it at the same time.

With all due respect, Don, this is NOT a thread about rape, but about personal responsibility, and whether we should be teching our children about how important it is....or not...depeneding on your outlook on life.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:11 AM

Les Barker expresses it so much better than me -

Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O.
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM

Well, some of Les Barker's works are better than others. The one you quote, Emma, doesn't strike me as having anything of very much profundity to say [& the pun on which it is based is pathetically ancient]. Do you really think quoting it was any sort of intelligent contribution to this thread?

If so, to cite one of my favourite quotes in return, Lorelei in Anita Loos's 'Gentlemen Prefer Blondes': "Goodness how sad".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM

"Do you really think quoting it was any sort of intelligent contribution to this thread?"

Actually I thought it was very much in keeping but - there you go!

Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:35 AM

Perhaps, Emma, it would be a good idea if you took personal responsibility for being a right pain in the whatsit, for not being able to resist constantly putting the verbal boot in with snidey comments, no matter what I write about.

Thank you so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:52 AM

I think a lot of personal responsibility died a long time ago. I know my first husband never took responsibility for any of his actions as long as I was married to him (in the '70s). And I think that was encouraged by his parents -- they bailed him out of every spot of trouble he got into until he married me, and then it was my turn. As far as he was concerned, the world owed him. Everyone was happy in their jobs but he, so he was justified in stealing from his employer(s). After 10 years of supporting him financially and emotionally, when I tried to extricate myself from the marriage, as far as he was concerned it was okay to try to kill me because he "loved" me so much. Stealing business checks from a friend and forging them was "writing bad checks". Nothing was ever his fault. Including his alcohol addiction.

Maybe that attitude is more common now. It certainly is in political circles.

Lord knows I've made mistakes, but I'm the first to admit them.

Right now, though, I have to head to work. We're understaffed and I have a responsibility to pull my weight.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM

blimey linn, thats heavy going. i think there are just some people like that. most of us are responsible. if we mess up we say sorry. we never set out to hurt or cause trouble for anyone and feel bad when we do.

emma, feel free to carry on posting, i find your posts either informative or amusing. *waves loo roll around like there's no tommorrow*   even though i don't like the song.

when i was going to school, the only way to get there was through the park. i was on a bike but that wouldn't have stopped anyone.
when i moved out i often went for a walk early hours of the morning, laying on a pinic table watching the stars.
while i admit that anything could have happened.i wasn't scared of anything happening.
if something had of, it wouldn't have been my fault for i was laying quietly bothering no one.

it sounds like kids are being scared. staying by houses is no guarantee of being safe, just as being in a park. in fact i would say the park was safer.you never know who is inside a house but can see people coming in the middle of a park.




risk is everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:49 AM

I wonder what most of the posts on this thread, have to do with personal responsibility?
Yes Lizzie you are quite right, people should be taught to be responsible for their actions. We live in a blame culture, which is a sign of an immature society.
Most people give up saying, "It wisnae me", while they stand beside the consequence of their actions, when they grow up.
Likewise the pathetic cry "A big boy dun an' ran awa' Mr"
As I said on another thread, if a child under the age of criminal responsibility commits an offence, then the parent/s should face charges.
Perhaps we could make a new criminal offence of 'Permitting your child to commit a criminal act' Only when people are faced with the consequences of their actions, or lack thereof, will they begin to think about personal responsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM

if a child under the age of criminal responsibility commits an offence, then the parent/s should face charges

I must demur. Having a juvenile hauled into the copshop is quite enough of an embarrassment to the parents usually. Personal responsibility should include doing the best you can learn to do as a parent but the multiplicity of factors that informs juvenile misconduct is in no way an actionable offense of the parents as a categorical conclusion. It may be in some cases and not in others. It would be useful if both parents and juvies had to undergo an education correction, though. Unfortunately, no such course exists, as far as I know.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:15 PM

Ah Amos, only the responsible parents would feel shame. The feckless would blame it on whatever was fashionable to blame things on, at that time ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM

Right, Jock. I feel the pain.

Actually this reveals a hidden upside to the endless stream of guilt-trips and blame-flows instilled by Catholic and Jewish mothers from time immemorial. Although it is ridiculous on the face of it to inform a child that the Infinite Creator of All Existence is somehow terribly concerned about what he does with his wee-wee, or running "when are you going to get a REAL job?" on a 45-year-old author of multiple best-selling novels...it does instill a substitute mental icon on which to anchor a sense of guilt and self-recrimination. Although this is a really, really bad substitute for a genuine, self-generated sense of responsibility, at least it makes people get out of bed in the morning and not do things they would be ashamed of if they had one...until the reactive pressures get too high.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:11 PM

OK, it was me. I admit it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM

maybe our concepts of personal responsibilty vary rather alot.

for me it is how my actions or lack of impact on myself and others.

i cannot and will not take responsibilty for what others might or might not do.

for example, it was my fault i crashed the car even though the wrong road surface was used, because of a lack of training of what to do on a slippery surface. i did the right things, but too much, i oversteered and over accelerated to get out of the slide.
what i don't do is blame the person driving the car i hit for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

however if that person had got out and slapped me, that would have been their responsibilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM

Now Lizzie...don't be nasty to "Em".
You and I have found a subject we agree on, on many we differ.

Emma is just as brave as you and very smart,we agree and disagree but she is 100% fair and a liberal in the true sense of the word.

You cannot say that about many here.

I respect all her opinions; she has caused me to scrutinise my own many a time and gives me a flea in the ear when she thinks I have gone off the rails.

One of my favourite Mudcats!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM

Too many people today have a TOTAL Knowledge of ALL their Rights but FAR too many have NO recognition of ANY resposibilities .


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM

ake, look at who started that. I have no problem with emma saying what she likes, about the subject matter. I have a BIG problem with her often bitchy comments about me, about my intelligence. She chooses to continue to behave this way with me. I did not start any of it.

I take full responsibility for telling her to back off. She needs to take full responsibility for being pretty damn nasty in the first place.

I would have had far more respect for you, had you seen that in the first place.

When some of the prats who follow me around this board, have the guts to apologise, publicly, for their behaviour, then..and ONLY then will I have respect for them.   Until such time, they are 100% responsible for how they behave towards me, and if they get walloped back, please take note that I do not start it and have a right to tell them what I think.

I suggest she keeps the fleas to herself.

Now, I'll leave you to hero-worship, but hey, don't come a PMing me congratulating me for taking a stand against these folks in some other threads, whilst publicly bashing me for doing exactly that on here, because I don't do hypocrites.


And yes, I claim absolute responsibility for being more than a little miffed with your hypocrisy.


Now, back to the thread, which Emma, tried to take off thread with nothing more than cheap sarcasm. Why? Because she has a problem with me. I suggest she thumps a cushion instead, as it's far less boring and far less impolite.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM

Absolutely, Leadfingers.


John, I'm with you on children and parents.   Yesterday there were two young boys, around 9 years old, twins, running down the hill in Torquay, on a really busy road...REALLY busy..and they were playing football, kicking the ball soooo close to the edge of the road..

Maternal instincts crept in...

"Boys, be careful, won't you? This road is so busy, and it's so easy for a ball to fall into the traffic. It could cause a terrible accident. And please, make sure you don't dart into the road after it, because you get badly hurt."

They scowled at me.

Then, they crossed over the road, taking their ball with them.

Next thing I know, I hear a 'scrunch' behind me, turn around but don't see anything...Then, I hear another one..and see a large stone hit the pavement. I look across the road, and there are the twins, one of them already loading up his third stone in his hand.

He froze, literally 'caught in the act'....

"Yeah? Come on then! Throw it at me, and you see what happens! Come ON!" I yelled at him.

He and his brother fled.


Now, ALL I had done was have their safety at heart. I'd spoken to them very kindly, in a soft Mother Hen voice...and I get that for caring about them???

I thought about following them home, going up to their house, but thought better of it, because what would have been the point? Would their parents have listened?


Today, I heard that the Government is seriously considering making it 'compulsory' (don't you love that New Labour word) to prove that you are capable of looking after a dog, owning a dog, to the point where possibly all new dog owners will be forced to sit a written exam before they're allowed to have a dog.



Perhaps they should do the same with some parents!


Better still, just bring in really heavy fines, instantly payable, for parents who bring their kids up to be little shits, and for those who let their dogs crap all over everywhere, or shag everyone else's dogs ad infinitum...'cos I am fair fed up with bad behaviour and this 'anything goes' society...

Hurrummph!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:49 PM

Come on Lizzie...dont be so sensitive!
Of course I agree with the points you have been making, and I did PM you over them.

My post was intended to be light hearted, but Emma is very committed to her point of view, just as committed as you and deserves as much respect as you do...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM

PRAYER IN OPEN D
                      ........Emmylou Harris

There's a valley of sorrow in my soul
Where every night I hear the thunder roll
Like the sound of a distant gun
Over all the damage I have done
And the shadows filling up this land
Are the ones I built with my own hand
There is no comfort from the cold
Of this valley of sorrow in my soul

There's a river of darkness in my blood
And through every vein I feel the flood
I can find no bridge for me to cross
No way to bring back what is lost
Into the night it soon will sweep
Down where all my grievances I keep
But it won't wash away the years
Or one single hard and bitter tear

And the rock of ages I have known
Is a weariness down in the bone
I use to ride it like a rolling stone
Now just carry it alone

There's a highway risin' from my dreams
Deep in the heart I know it gleams
For I have seen it stretching wide
Clear across to the other side
Beyond the river and the flood
And the valley where for so long I've stood
With the rock of ages in my bones
Someday I know it will lead me home




Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM

Speaking of dogs...there was a death of a little girl here from a Rottweiler family dog attack..ripped her face off I believe. It is in the paper that the dog is not going to be automatically euthanised, as any sensible law would insist on, but might be adopted out. I would think that any family with any sense whatsoever would insist on having it killed as soon as required rabies tests are done.   I personally would have said screw the rabies and shot the dog on the spot. Someone today told me about a friend with a drugged out daughter and granddaughter was kept in playpen with cheerios and a pit bull. People are so stupid and so selfish sometimes concerning their pets that laws have to be made to protect us from them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:59 PM

Thanks, Spaw....very moving song...says a great deal.


You respect Emma, ake. That is 100% your privilege. I have no problem with that. But do not tell me to respect her. Thank you.
I don't respect folks who deliberately steam in to be bitchy, for no reason **whatsoever**. Did she contribute to the subject matter of this thread? Nope. That was, imo, a highly unnecessary comment.
We are each responsible for our own actions.


And now, back to the subject matter, I hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:14 PM

Oh, what an awful thing to happen, mg. That poor little girl, her poor family.


I remember once, when I was taking one of my dog's to training classes, there was a Rotweiler there. The trainers wouldn't touch it. The people who owned it were hopeless with it, couldn't hold it on a lead, couldn't control it. It was a HUGE dog which belonged to a slightly odd chap, and his elderly mother. A few weeks later, the man died of a heart attack..and the dog was put out for rehoming, but the trainers said they knew the family line it had come from, and it was known to be a vicious one. They were worried sick about what the outcome would be, but were pretty powerless to intervene.

Dog owners are getting worse and worse, and so many seem to have no sense of any responsibility whatsoever at times...and that comes from a dog owner herself, who loves dogs. They don't understand dogs at all and can't be bothered to control them. Drives me bats.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:39 PM

Oh but my dog is my baby. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:47 PM

So's mine, but he's not allowed to be a pain in the dog butt to any other animal or human. Tigger has 'responsibilites' too. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM

Lizzie, you really don't WANT to start me on dogs. YOU have NO idea so just don't go there. I have known many 'pit bulls' and Rotweillers in my life, all were just sweeties.

It depends ALL on how they are raised. SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?

You seldom seem to know what you are talking about so why should I believe you about this?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM

It depends ALL on how they are raised ,

True Sorcha .....

but where is Joe Offer now ?? are some people more inportant than others
in the Mudcat threads ?

Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads. that was from Emma B

and this is from Sorcha : izzie, you really don't WANT to start me on dogs. YOU have NO idea so just don't go there. I have known many 'pit bulls' and Rotweillers in my life, all were just sweeties.

It depends ALL on how they are raised. SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?

You seldom seem to know what you are talking about so why should I believe you about this?


well if some people can write almost anything in here and some don´t
... I thought this is only for Music related matters .....
or that was I saw in the Joe Offer thread for JM the otherday .

all the best Skarpi Iceland .


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:19 PM

The BS is open to all discussion, skarpi. From what I understand, the site policy is people can post almost anything they want (near as I know, it only precludes personal attacks and libel). And, it's up to the reader to discern the validity and the value of the post.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM

"It depends ALL on how they are raised. SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?"

Seems a slightly rabid response, Sorcha, but each to their own.


"You seldom seem to know what you are talking about so why should I believe you about this?"

You don't have to believe anything I say, that is your freedom of choice. However, what I said about the Rotweiler was absolutely true.

They also, for your information, wouldn't touch Rosie, the little dog I was training. She was sheltie/something cross, and had belonged to my mother. When mum chose to go off and leave her, I stepped in and brought her to live with me. She was badly trained, a bloody nightmare, actually, spoilt rotten, growled if anyone went near the double bed where she used to sleep with my mother.

They didn't touch her, because they knew she was frightened..and only related to me. I had to train all the bad things OUT of her first, get her to realise she was bottom of the pack, not top..then I had to train the good things into her. Took me an age, and she never quite got to the same place as my two dogs, who'd walk beside me with no leads being necessary, who'd sit down every time I raised my hand in the air, no words being needed, who'd lie down too, with a different command. But Rosie improved one helluva lot...and my abiding memory of her will be sitting on the beach in Sidmouth, with her little front paws crossed over, oh so daintily in front of her, as the sun streamed down on her face. She was holding her head up to the sunshine, loving every moment of it's warmth, her eyes tight shut against the brightness. Never have I seen an animal so happy and content. She lived to be 17 years old, as did Badger and Gruffy, although Bluebell (Badger's sister) sadly died at 12, due to spleen trouble.

Oh, and for your information, my friend Julie has a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a white one, a rescue dog, who'd been treated so cruelly. She calls her Angel, and she's as soft and gentle as a baby.

And now, I'll leave you to continue barking madly, but...if you care to apologise, that's fine by me. If not, your words are your responsibility, not mine....so I'll leave them with you.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM

Errr, Skarpi, do YOU know dog stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM

Oh, and Sorcha, whilst my children were growing up, I had four dogs, Badger, Bluebell, Rosie and Gruffy, with Toffee being at the start of their lives, Rosie coming in as they grew older. Throughout it all those dogs went everywhere with us, and I pushed the pram, then the pushchair, with two dogs on either side of me. I walked everywhere, as I don't drive, and the dogs went out twice a day, often right up the huge hill on to the moors, where they'd run free.

Never, in any of those times, did they misbehave towards any other human or animal.

I have had dogs all my life long, never lived without an animal apart from a couple of weeks, between my old cat, Sooty dying, and Ben, a black collie coming into my life. We took him to show our next door neighbours, and they gingerly disappeared to their back room, coming out with the sweetest black and white kitten, which they'd bought as a surprise for me, as they knew how upset I was at losing Sooty, he was 20 when he died.

Sooty had belonged to Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, two doors down..and when their daughter, Helen, had died at just 8 years old, Mrs. Johnson went into deep grief, turning to alcohol. She couldn't bear to have Sooty around her, as he'd been Helen's cat. She used to dress him up and put him in her pram with her dolls..and he was so soppy that he let her do that.

Sooty became a sad cat. Lost and lonely, never allowed in the house....He befriended me, and we'd play for ages together. He never once tried to come into our house, though, as we had a golden spaniel at that time, a dear soul, called Lucy.

When Lucy died, the day she died, Sooty walked in through the back door and he never left. Mr. and Mrs. Johnson gave him to me, with their blessing. She went on to kick the alcohol and get her life back on track, getting a new cat eventually. Sooty never went back there, but stayed with us, where he was loved until his dying day.

So please, don't ever imagine that I know nothing about animals..because they have been my best friends at times...They have comforted me in times of deep grief and always, ALWAYS been there for me, as I have been for them.

Responsibility is not just a himan thing, and my animals have always taken as much care of me, as I have of them.

Just so's you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Yeah, skarpi? You know anything about dogs? Or were you just posting about Sorcha's post?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM

Oops! 'human' not 'himan'...although 'himans' sound pretty interesting. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:56 PM

what have animals got to do with personal responsibilty????

apart from for us to look after and train them that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM

It doesnt matter a Tinkers Cuss how a dog is treated if its badly bred to start with ! As Lizzie said , it IS possible to train a dog out of some traits , but some dogs are just Bad 'uns because of the lack of responsibility of the breeders !
And Sorcha , dont tell me I dont know dogs !


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:07 PM

I don't know dogs. I want them to be comfortable and I respect them but I have no desire to have them sleep on my bed, etc. I do know babies. This family had another Rottweiler taken from them not long ago. I think it has everything to do with personal responsibility..again, there are many low-IQ people out there and their responsibility is lessened, I think anyway, because they perhaps can not think up every scenario. And I am not even talking about the family, but the idiotically stupid government agency that even considers adopting out that dog after it ripped a baby's face off, and killed her instead of putting the dog down right now. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:01 PM

Mary - I agree - My Dad had an English Bull terrier - He REALLY knew dogs ,bit couldnt stop her snapping at ANYTHING ! Turned out she was InBred so , sadly , she was put down - The ONLY course for an InBred dog !


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:52 PM

heck if you lot think a snappy( snappy not dangerous) dog is bad. i hate to think how much you are ranting at that killer whale!!!
mind you, you would be in good company.

that was another tragedy that shouldn't have happened. but the thing is worth alot of money so of course they don't want to kill it!

i agree the behaviour of dogs is down to the owners training. however this shouldn't just be about them.
personal responsibilty is about everything we do.
every choice.
every action.
or things we should have done.
lets not make this just about dogs, that is such a small aspect of the whole subject.

ta x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:46 AM

It is irresponsible of humans to make whales 'perform' in 'baths'. Cruel too, but we are sadly, pretty damn irresponsible as a species.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM

Re my post...

"Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Yeah, skarpi? You know anything about dogs? Or were you just posting about Sorcha's post?"

I meant to clearly point out that skarpi said nothing about dogs in his post. He only commented on Sorcha's post.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:16 AM

Well Sorcha , I am about to have a Husky in my house soon
yes I know a little , and I know that you can train dogs to do almost
whatever you are gonna use them .

you can train him badly or you can go to a good trainer and teach him
well like you said Sorcha , its all about what you are gonna
have the dog for ... .


my message has nothing about what you said about the dog s
but how you said it .

what right do you have Sorcha to tell her to and I copy paste you r own word here :SO JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP, OK?

Tell me Sorcha are you grown up or what ?
a teen may have said something like this but you are an adult ?

I like dogs , and I wish I had have a dog sooner ..
kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:22 AM

are Sorcha words Personal Responsibility?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM

Well skarpi I think you will find that the OP has justified her own use of such language on previous occasions - maybe this observation was not lost on Sorcha and - sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

BTW maybe you would also like to explain your reference to my post of   02 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM in which I commented that I had no wish to refresh a thread that appeared to be simply a continuation / spin off further repetition of a theme in an existing long running thread

"but where is Joe Offer now ?? are some people more inportant than others
in the Mudcat threads ?"


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM

TBH I am of the school that there are no bad dogs or children. Just bad 'owners' (and for the pedants I am not saying our children are our property. They are but loaned to us).

There will always be the occasional exceptions to the rule but most likely if a child or pet is bad look to it's parents or owners as a good start. Budgies don't get put down if they peck you, cats if they scratch you, horses if they nibble you... why do dogs automatically get put down? I have often wondered that one. I know someone with a pet orphaned wolf (which was born about as wild as you can get yet is a pet now).

Mongrels, by definition, have no breedinf... yet they often are the most faithful of animals. I do not necessarily subscribe to the good breeding school. Good teaching - be it manners, response, responsibilities, etc - must surely come from the mentor?

Just some opinions to contribute

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:46 AM

Hallo Emma , yes she may also have been saying things , but I have not notice yet .

If so then they should both behave ......:O)

Emma please tell what this mean ? :Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads.

I may have misunderstand this,.

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM

Skarpi - it meant it was my intention to leave this particular thread as I believed that, as it was basically just repeating and continuing the personal opinion of the OP expressed during many posts on a current long running thread, it was somewhat unecessary in my opinion.
Nothing more - nothing less

I hope that my opinion is as valid as any other posters even if I don't resort to calling them a 'right pain in the whatsit' or 'pretty damn nasty' or other ad hominen 'arguments' :)

However if you think that in some way expressing such an opinion singles me out in some way for you to specifically comment on me as you did ......

"but where is Joe Offer now ?? are some people more inportant than others
in the Mudcat threads ?

'Now I have no wish to further refresh this thread or any other spinoffs of other threads' that was from Emma B'

well if some people can write almost anything in here and some don´t
... I thought this is only for Music related matters .....
or that was I saw in the Joe Offer thread for JM the otherday ."


....... I would be interested to hear why


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM

"Well skarpi I think you will find that the OP has justified her own use of such language on previous occasions - maybe this observation was not lost on Sorcha and - sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!"

Let's get this straight, just for the record, Emma.

First of all, YOU took this thread off thread, with a highly unnecessary remark. You then went on to make another. Neither of which were *anything* to do with me.

Sorcha came in and said what she did, for what reason????????   I had not addressed her, nor attacked, nor was talking about her in *any* way, and yet, she responded to me in the most personal way. She had not even BEEN in this thread. Not only that, but she said what she did for what reason? I told the truth there, that two dog trainers would not touch a rotweiler, because they KNEW his bloodline, and KNEW it contained dangerous dogs. Might I also add that these one of these two women helped the police to train dogs, so she knew what she was talking about.

When I have used th 'f' word, it has been *either* in **response** to vicious and persistent attacks from the usual crowd, OR to highlight how bloody angry I feel at the apathy that has brought this world to the state it's now in.

Had *I* come in here and in response to you first post had said "Emma, why don't you shut the fuck up and get out of this thread!" then you'd have had the right to take me up on that.

I did not.

Your friend Sorcha, did.

I suggest you take the matter up with her, then look up the word Hypocrisy in the dictionary.

Thank you very much.

And now, yet again, back to the subject of this thread, which IS about Personal Responsibility.


Oh, and I do not have to ask *your* permission, Emma, to start a thread, no matter what it is about. You do not have to open a thread, nor take part in it whatsoever, if you are not interested.

May I politey suggest that you stay out of this one from now on, for that very reason, unless, of course, you want to be a hypocrite and just keep coming back and back to re-iterate your point.

Thank you, again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM

Let's get this straight, just for the record
I am replying to skarpi - Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:05 PM

"Skarpi - it meant it was my intention to leave this particular thread as I believed that, as it was basically just repeating and continuing the personal opinion of the OP expressed during many posts on a current long running thread, it was somewhat unecessary in my opinion.
Nothing more - nothing less"




Emma, see above. You mentioned me, in your reply to skarpi, saying you thought the OP (doh..me!) had started this thread to continue my thoughts in the other thread.

I had not.

You were wrong.

If you have nothing relevant to say in this thread ABOUT the subject matter, then I'd politely suggest you find another thread to write in. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:47 PM

Jeddy = The Persional Responsiblity of Dog Breeders is the point of bringing dogs into this discussion ! As well as Bad trainers and Bad Owners !


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:50 PM

'If you have nothing relevant to say in this thread ABOUT the subject matter, then I'd politely suggest you find another thread to write in. Thank you.'

May I politely refer you to my post of 03 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM Lizzie

Thank you again


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM

I think it is quite fine to start a thread covering the same basic territory but with a less emotionally loaded title. No one wants to be in a situation of seeming to agree with the title of the other thread, but we have opinions to express that seem to confuse people into believing that we do agree. And there are many subtopics to cover..many of which have to do with the possible collapse and restructuring of society as we know it. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM

hummmmm
In the past people have been closed out for saying thing s
that does not fit in here on Mudcat , and others have quit
coming in here .....


but ......and others can stay on and say things like Sorcha did
in this thread ..

thats my meaning , nothing more nothing less thank you very much for this program....


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:46 PM

Wouldn't it be good, for instance, if employers started to take on personal responsibility towards their staff again. If they began treating them with respect and kindness, rather than cutting wages, cutting hours, no contracts, no tea breaks, no this, no that....

If they were more spiritually responsible, as well as financially so, for the health, welfare and happiness of their staff, then they might well start getting far more back than they ever dreamt of.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:07 PM

Indeed it would, Lizzie. Just for example, there's a really toxic mantra floating around MBA courses that says "The purpose of business--the SOLE purpose--is to make money."

This patently false bit of information can distort the rationality of hundreds of young trainees who later become executives. When they use it to think with they make decisions like those of the late Enron energy company. They never even THINK to run it past an evaluation based on personal claimancy of the consequences. Institutionalized idiocy of the first magnitude, you ask me.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:23 PM

Nor personal clemency.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:32 PM

I think in the music threads you have to be more careful and the b.s. threads are more open..I think coming to the open threads does not imply that you accept abuse, but that things could likely get more heated up and you take your chances when you enter here...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:24 PM

The pity of that mg is that we are all folkies and should treat each other with the same respect no matter which list we are on. People can have differences of opinion, like they sing different songs, but one would not expect to enter a club, feel and safe and cosy inside whilst upon leaving it expecting to be beaten up by the same folks you just shared singing space with.

Personally I do not see why we cannot address each other with civility without resorting to bad language and insults.

So okay: I'm a dinosaur ! lol

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM

George Will's column of a few days ago addresses the contemporary trend of explaining away all irresponsibility and immorality as "disease" to be "treated." He also points out that "abnormality" of any kind, including genius (e.g. the young Mozart) is now widely viewed as something that must be "cured":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/26/AR2010022603369.html

(Unfortunately, you may need to establish a free account with the Washington Post to access this page.)

While I respect his intellect, I usually disagree with Mr. Wills' options on all topics other than baseball, but I'm 100% with him on this one. I believe that there are such things as right and wrong, even if my idea of where to draw the line between them might differ from yours. NOT everything a person can do is excuseable and morally indifferent.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:03 PM

skips into thread towing 2 meters of loo roll waving like a banner.


NAH NAH cocks a snoot at everyone....
scrunches loo roll into balls and chucks them around with for and recision...HA.. direct hit!! picks up banner of bog roll and skops merrily out again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: jeddy
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM

stumbles back through thread coughing, you lot shouldn't have made me all excited like that. looks around confused....wanders out again


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:44 PM

Skarpi, if Lizzie can say the F word, why can't I? Do you want me to go find examples? Why do you single ME out?

I also think she just might be upset because I told her to 'shut up'....which she has told a LOT of people to do.

Spaw and Bruce/Peace/999 (whatever he is today) say it too, and YES, some people ARE more equal on Mudcat than others.

(Desiderius Erasmus, Adagia (III, IV, 96 WHO is King of the Land ?
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King

In regione caecorum rex est luscus

SO, WHO is blind here?

There was an old woman who lived in a shoe,
She gave them some broth without any bread,
Whupped all their bums and sent them to bed


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM

Sorry, left out a line...she had so many children she didn't know what to do!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:04 PM

well it seems that little rhyme about a lack of personal responsibility goes back to at least 1794

nothing new there then?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:43 PM

About 20 years ago I overheard a conversation at a local downtown Portsmouth Szechuan restaurant: "Of COURSE business ethics courses are taught in B-school...but nobody ever takes them."

Of course, taking the courses and paying attention to them are two different things, but I think the recent economic meltdown after too many years of rampant greed and short-term business outlook underscores those accidentally eavesdropped words.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:53 PM

OK just thinking about nursery rhymes - well it makes you think doesn't it?

According to Bruno Bettelheim in 'The Uses of Enchantment' (New York Knopf 1976) the fairytale proves as the unconscious proving ground with a young child's struggles with the great developmental tasks, which if not mastered, leave ineradicable scars upon the future adult

Goldilocks goes to sleep in a stranger's bed (in some versions she is eaten), a rebellious and individualistic girl - the kind that could easily be drawn into trouble by her natural inclinations - walks through a wild forest her individualism leading her into trouble, although, in later versions where women 'know their place', she can be resurrected as a reformed, more obedient girl, the powerful male woodcutter/policeman having destroyed the seducing wolf.

As for Snow White well……she has to fall asleep after she bites into the apple, otherwise her lack of personal responsibility would 'wreak sexual havoc on the kingdom, not too dissimilar from the evil Eve of biblical fame'.

Just goes to show there really is nothing new under the sun is there?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:40 AM

who is blind , well you Sorcha you lost a line there .......:O)

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:55 AM

Last night, I had the weirdest dream.......... :0)


Death of Personal Responsibility:

'Lizzie MADE me do it! It's her fault, and Spaw's and Peace! I couldn't help doing it, because of THEM!"


Birth of Personal Responsibility:

'Lizzie, I am SO sorry for the way I behaved. I realise that you were not, in any whatsoever, attacking me. Good heavens, I hadn't even been in this thread up that point, nor do you have any personal issue with me.

You were merely talking about something that actually happened.

I was feeling in a real nasty mood that evening and so I used you as a scapegoat for those feelings.'



And another new baby arrives:

"Lizzie, I was a real shit to come into this thread and say what I did. I've had a good long look at myself and realised I've become more than a little obsessed with you. This is because I am pedantic about facts, and I get enraged if anyone refuses to report the absolute truth. Of course, I also recognise that all the cut and paste bits I find on the internet may also not be the truth, and therefore to use them against you, doesn't quite add up. But I've got myself into this vicious circle where I *HAVE* to discredit, patronise or prove you wrong, no matter what you say. I will think deeply before doing this again, because I understand that it is my responsibility for behaving this way.



My goodness, isn't the Maternity Ward of Central Responsibility Hospital getting full.


;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:46 AM

Well now isn't that nice - a way to call someone a shit without actually mentioning them by name - do you think that some weird dreamer might just have become a little obsessive about who can post in 'her' threads?

"This is because I am pedantic about facts, and I get enraged if anyone refuses to report the absolute truth"

Well now I'm sure that is meant that to be insulting - there are people good at personal insults on mudcat in lieu of any argument - but I frequently draw attention to the fact that what I post is my opinion or that of someone else who I may not even agree with but, wherever possible, credit the source.

What I do NOT post is the most outrageous lies - yes lies! - as statements of fact in areas of expertise I know nothing about.


I have thought quite deeply about the dissemination of wilful misinformation on a forum like this and, whether it has been examples of blatant racism, homophobic hate speech or just someone spouting on about some subject they know nothing about but can manipulate to fit in with some personal fixation, I think that there is a serious duty to discredit it.

Well that's my take on 'personal responsibility' anyways FWIW


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:29 AM

"I have thought quite deeply about the dissemination of wilful misinformation on a forum like this..."

Not deep enough, Chicken, 'cos you have me so wrong. HOW can you possibly know what I mean by my words, Emma? We all interpret words differently, according to whether some of us have 'agendas' or not.

You have, seemingly, made up your mind, that I am a lying, manipulative human being.

I am anything but that.

You have been helped into this belief by others, who have very strong agendas, with regards to me. That is your decision entirely, your responsibility, as it is theirs.

You choose to see me always half empty, in more ways than one, when, in reality, I am actually always half full.


"...and, whether it has been examples of blatant racism, homophobic hate speech or just someone spouting on about some subject they know nothing about but can manipulate to fit in with some personal fixation, I think that there is a serious duty to discredit it."

It is, sometimes, extraordinarily difficult to get the right message from posts, if people read them in their own voice, and that voice is filled with anger, suspicion and bitterness. ALL will be coloured, accordingly.

Without facial, vocal intonation, no-one can actually derive the truthful meaning behind many messages on the internet.

You chose to go down this path, Emma. I did not ask you to. You chose to stand beside those who have taken my freedom of speech away, and who literally stalk me around the internet. I have no idea why they do this, other than I have dared to stand up to them, and they have it their way for so very long, that they cannot believe anyone has the right to do that.

I have every right.

I have been responsible for making mistakes on here and I have apologised, publicly for that, both to some posters, and to Joe, Max and Mick. I have had terrible things written about me, on Facebook, but someone on this forum, who purports to be the bees knees when it comes to caring about others, but who has never, ever had the guts to apologise for the things they have said about me, or my family.

I have had my intelligence insulted by so many, yet have never taken that same line with them, indeed I have actually stated that they are intelligent people.

I will leave you to continue down the path you have chosen to walk, but please, take the responsibility for walking down that, yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:41 AM

Lizzie I don't have any pathological need for an adversary

You seem incapable of seperating someone disagreeing with or, yes discrediting, something you have written from some kind of conspirical attack upon yourself - well sorry but that's YOUR responsbility!

Now please just get a life - half empty or half full I don't really care chicken :)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:06 AM

Here we go again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM

Regrettably so -

I really have had enough of being deliberately drawn into this kind of personal argument with someone who appears to make a forum career out of it - but, what is someone supposed to do when they are addressed by name or called a shit in some weird analogy about parturition?

'There's nothing wrong with narcissists that reasoning with them won't aggravate'


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:43 AM

Ignore it. Don't post. Keep out of it.
If you ignore an itch it will go away.
It's the grown-up thing to do.
I read lots of bollocks on lots of threads on Mudcat - I ignore it, posting in order to argue is not compulsory.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:45 AM

And unfortunately a small group of individuals seem to have become utterly obsessed with the rantings of another individual.

If they stopped reacting, the rantings would likely stop. Provocation's only fun if it gets a reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:52 AM

...HOW can you possibly know what I mean by my words....

Say what? whoooo, boy.

Well, if a person can't convey what they mean by their words, would seem a rather useless exercise. Best to just shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:57 AM

From Emma:

"I really have had enough of being deliberately drawn into this kind of personal argument with someone who appears to make a forum career out of it - but, what is someone supposed to do when they are addressed by name or called a shit in some weird analogy about parturition?"

Then WHY, Emma, did **you** start it in the first place?

Do not give out blame, where there should be responsibility.

Your first post in this thread:

>>>RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Emma B - PM
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:11 AM

Les Barker expresses it so much better than me -

Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O.
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O, Earwig O,
Earwig O, Earwig O. <<<




It's called 'Being Hoisted By Your Own Petard' I think.

I have great respect for people who publically apology and no respect for those who don't.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:09 AM

Do you know, I recall someone getting very self righteous and indignant about a previous Mudcatter whom they perceived as being persecuted, and 'picked on' unfairly, by other Mudcatters.
Much the same thing appears to be happening again,here.
This person felt so strongly about it, that they left Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:18 AM

From Greg:

>>>"...HOW can you possibly know what I mean by my words....

Say what? whoooo, boy.

Well, if a person can't convey what they mean by their words, would seem a rather useless exercise. Best to just shut up. <<<


And Greg, unless you have other agendas, it's probably wise to not quote words out of context, because what I said right after those few words you quoted was:

"HOW can you possibly know what I mean by my words, Emma? We all interpret words differently, according to whether some of us have 'agendas' or not.

And of course, this part, from my same message:

>>>"It is, sometimes, extraordinarily difficult to get the right message from posts, if people read them in their own voice, and that voice is filled with anger, suspicion and bitterness. ALL will be coloured, accordingly."

Without facial, vocal intonation, no-one can actually derive the truthful meaning behind many messages on the internet."<<<

You see what I mean there, Greg? You seem to have COMPLETELY gone off down the wrong track over my words...unless of course, you chose to knowingly do that, because you wanted to er...spin...er..ridicule..er...belittle...humiliate......(you fill in the reasons, Greg) Then take responsibility for them.

Hey, I have a good idea...Let's return this thread to it's original meaning...before someone took it way off track and her buddy followed..

Let's put it back into society's seemingly desperate wish for Blame to replace the R word...

R&B, a whole new meaning..


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM

Here's a good one..the dog shelter..don't know if the shelter made this decision or not but they should be unlicensed until they don't make decisions like this..are going to let the dog that killed a little girl go back home. With some limitations. I absolutely can not believe that dog would not be put down the instant it was legally possible. I just can not believe it.

Here's another...(and I am not so much for personal responsibility as I am for limits on irresponsible behavior through other means)..Chile has an 8.8 earthquake. We have a tsunami warning. Thousands they say..thousands...of people refused to stay off the beaches and were in the tide digging clams..after being warned...the tsunami was only a few inches..but with the ocean you never know..people said it roared in the speed of an airplane and made a noise like a train coming in..I was across the river near higher ground..and we weren't really worried..but still...if you are told to stay out of the ocean, stay out. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

You see what I mean there, Greg?

No, I don't- and I don't believe you do, either.

If you can't manage to express yourself in a manner so as to be readily understandable, that's YOUR problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:48 PM

T'aint my fault if you just read sporadic sentences, Greg, then get your head up your arse backwards about what I mean. ;0) I write. You read. And somewhere in the middle, we should meet. Anyways ups, I'll leave you to follow me round, ad infinitum, quoting me out of context, if that's what floats yer boat.


Myra Hindley
Ian Brady
The Yorkshire Ripper


Apparently, the Yorkshire Ripper has now turned into a very nice boy, who's convinced, and trying to convince others, that he's very capable of now leading a normal life. It was the nasty voices what did it, not him....but now, he's changed completely, thanks to his medication.

Of course, the one thing Peter Sutcliffe has overlooked is, that even if he IS now a 'cured' as he's claiming, he still was responsible for carrying out indescribable crimes, even if he was not in a responsible state of mind at the time...

Now you see, if I were him, I'd be so filled with delayed guilt, revulsion, shock and remorse at what I'd done in the past, that I could barely breathe. I'd certainly not want to live, wouldn't feel I even had a right to live, no matter how 'cured' I felt I was.

George Bush.....gawd...where do I start with him?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:13 PM

Getting back to the original concept, does anyone else find it amusing that a thread on personal responsibility degenerated into a cloud of reciprocal recrimination?

I am not saying I haven't done the same thing, but it strikes me in this context that complete personal responsibility, in a written dialogue like this, would evoke extremely patient clarifications of any misunderstanding, and a generous-spirited charity toward disagreement, if one were assuming fully his own responsibility for what he wrote.

Just saying...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:33 AM

The tenor of this thread is largely due to the attitudes of some of the contributors, towards the OP, Amos.
To some people, life is black or white, and once they take against something or someone, no further thought is applied, and posts from their betes noir, elicit a Pavlovian response. In many cases the name at the top is enough, and no further reading takes place, in other cases, the post is read assiduously, then mercilessly dissected. Sometime a stray sentence is picked on, and refuted or decried at length.
I freely admit to having scoffed at the OP myself at times, when she went through a phase of 'introducing me' to performers I had known about for some time, with a plethora of blue clickies.
However, outwith those aides memoire, I find many of her posts thoughtful, provocative, and nicely expressed. She has a better vocabulary than many of her detractors, and a wicked line in put-downs ;) In fact it may be the latter talent that enrages some of her "fan club".
Mind you, having largely middle class values, and the odd Laura Ashley moment, is as a red rag to a bull, amongst the left leaning people of this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:16 AM

Just popped 'downstairs' after a week or so to provide some advice on self employment so I thought I would take a look at what else was going on. Well, it is Friday after all...

I will add something here and be it on my own head:-) I agree entirely. We are all responsible for our own actions and must bear some of the responsibilty for how other people react to those actions.

If I was, for instance, to wander into a pub, start slagging off the old bloke sat in the corner, tell everyone there that they are all dull and boring, change the channel on the TV so it suited me and then complain to the manager that people shouted at me, I would not be at all surprised if someone smacked me in the mouth.

Of course it would not realy be my fault because people chose to interpret my actions their own ways and all I was actualy trying to do was make a point and make life more interesting for everyone. Just because I do not follow their rules is no reason for them to turn on me is it?

Oh, hang on, I'm contradicting myself by now saying I am not responsible. Hmmmm. I wonder who is responsible for that? I blame the education system...

:D (eG)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Death of Personal Responsibility?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:09 AM

One or two posters in this thread have written about the importance of apologies. I just wanted to add that I don't want an apology if it's not meant. Kids these days seem to be taught that they can do what they like as long as they apologise afterwards. Then, having done that, they can carry on doing what they like again. I won't accept an apology unless the person apologising really means it and has no intention of doing whatever-it-was again.

I think that probably applies to politicians too!


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