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BS: Palin sips tea tonight

Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Feb 10 - 04:49 PM
Alice 06 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM
John MacKenzie 06 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM
Ebbie 06 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Feb 10 - 06:23 PM
akenaton 06 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,999 06 Feb 10 - 07:50 PM
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Riginslinger 06 Feb 10 - 08:53 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM
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beeliner 07 Feb 10 - 02:43 PM
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Bobert 07 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM
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mousethief 08 Feb 10 - 03:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM
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GUEST,999 08 Feb 10 - 07:37 PM
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kendall 08 Feb 10 - 07:58 PM
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Lighter 14 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Feb 10 - 01:43 PM
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CarolC 17 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM
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Ron Davies 17 Feb 10 - 11:15 PM
beardedbruce 18 Feb 10 - 08:32 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Feb 10 - 01:52 PM
mousethief 18 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM
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gnu 18 Feb 10 - 07:58 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Feb 10 - 12:52 AM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM
mousethief 19 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Feb 10 - 05:17 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Feb 10 - 01:57 PM
Greg F. 21 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Feb 10 - 02:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Feb 10 - 03:24 PM
CarolC 21 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM
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GUEST,John 01 Mar 10 - 01:12 AM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM
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Subject: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:49 PM

Sarah speaks at the Tea Party tonight.
9:00PM, Eastern time.

Way up in old Alaska,
Born lovely as a rose;
Lass of twinkling eyes,
Oh! My heart she frose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Alice
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM

Tea? I thought she was serving Kool-aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

Oh! My heart she frose.

She must be one of God's frozen people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

In the jungle, the political jungle
The Palin sips tonight


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

A hundred thousand is the price of her soul
Happily she takes it and promises to return
And the people, ignoring her habits of old,
Applaud, unknowing, uncaring, their fingers will burn


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:23 PM

And my perdictshun fer the next erection is ---


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM

Their fingers are already so badly burned that they have lost all sensitivity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:50 PM

"Palin sips tea tonight"

But, will she keep her pinkie in the air?

I sat next to Sarah at tea
It was just as I thought it would be
Her rumblings abdominal
Were simply abominable
And everyone thought it was me


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:31 PM

hohoho lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:53 PM

Will the Tea Party Movement finally break Washington out of dead-lock?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:56 PM

Maybe not. However, a good bowel movement . . . .

PS: Eb, that's not my limerick--wish it was. The original first line is

"I sat next to the duchess at tea"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 09:46 PM

Oh, well, it's a good one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM

Not a bad start for Palin. Despite her rather surprising pick by McCain, she still had some of the boonies pasture smell. She has moved to Middle City and her keynote for the Tea Party has moved her closer to the power brokers she needs.

The Democratic party has frittered away gains made among fickle independents; Palin will hammer away at the Dems but I don't think she has the ability to go all the way.

Scott Brown probably will be the new voice of the Republican resurgence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

I suspect the mainstream media would do the same thing to Scott Brown that they did to Palin. The Republicans would do better if they stayed with somebody like Mitt Romney or even Gingrich if they really want to be sucessful--IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: beeliner
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:43 PM

Democrats are, of course, praying for a major split in the Republican party - and they might just get one.

I watched the speech - as expected - long on rhetoric, short on specifics and solutions.

Scott Brown is pro-choice. Unless he is somehow able to convincingly mediate his position, which will be difficult, he is toast from the git-go as a GOP presidential possibility, unless, of course, the 'pro-lifers' all go for Tea, leaving the Republicans to adopt a more pragmatic position on the issue.

But even in that unlikely scenario, he would be splitting the conservative vote with the Tea candidate.

It looks good for the Dems in 2012, though I would not be surprised if the candidate turned out to be someone other than the incumbent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

Dunno, but I think the Democrats have lost credibility with the middle America voter.

Unfortunate that Hillary Clinton, who knows how to mediate, was not the 2008 candidate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: beeliner
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:16 PM

Dunno, but I think the Democrats have lost credibility with the middle America voter.

Perhaps, but that's because the middle American voters are impatient and fickle. The credibility will return if the ecomony improves, which it might, significantly, before the fall election.

Unfortunate that Hillary Clinton, who knows how to mediate, was not the 2008 candidate.

She would have been my candidate also, and in the event of an Obama meltdown, she is available for 2012.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 05:06 PM

It seems to me it would be hard for her to extract herself from the Secertary of State office, and then run against Obama for the nomination for 2012. I like Hillary too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM

That's just great...

The Tea Party and Ms. Sarah are a match made in Heaven...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:10 PM

In the jungle the mighty jungle the liar sleeps tonight.

The original song was written by Neil Sedaka.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:59 PM

Cartoons I made just in case, that were never used...

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/obamapoker.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/palin_art2.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/moose3.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/PalinPilot.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:09 PM

1) If you mean "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" was written by Neil Sedaka--that's dead wrong--and there are long threads on Mudcat about that topic.

2) Hillary "knows how to mediate". Sorry, that's completely meaningless.   So does President Obama.   The parties have to want to compromise.   If you think these factions do, you are to say the least, naive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Beer
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:11 PM

I hate to shit on the party but this just came to me. Palin in 2012? She Says Run Is Possible.
New York Times
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:11 PM

"...you are, to say the least, naive."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:17 PM

"Run in 2012".    I have indicated this many times before.   And it could work for her--as I also pointed out.    The primaries are set up to reward passion--and that means Palin.   And the economy and war situations--especially the economy-- have to improve drastically--or President Obama has serious problems--from any Republican. Including Sarah.

Mudcatters' scorn for her has remarkably little significance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:21 PM

Of course, she didn't actually say the words: "A run for President in 2012 is possible..." What she said is that it "would be absurd" for her to say at this point that she won't run for President in 2012.

And of course, again, she is right. A stopped clock, etc, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:15 AM

The problem, as I've indicated in earlier threads, is that primaries reward passion. The top two issues in Republican primaries these days are 1) abortion and 2) gun rights.   There's no question who of the current Republican field has the anti-abortion issue locked up tight. The only one who has "walked the walk":   Sarah.   Similarly, who's the poster girl of the NRA: Cheney?

Mudcatters had best start taking Sarah seriously.

And don't blithely assume that if she gets the Republican nomination it will be a cakewalk for President Obama or any other Democrat. If the economy and war situations don't improve drastically--especially the economy--President Obama (or any other Democrat) will have big problems.

One of the ironies of this is that the one thing some Mudcatters and others on the Left could do to weaken Sarah is the thing they are least likely to do:   stop trashing religion, and stop pushing for politically poisonous ideas like homosexual marriage.   Both of these bring out the rightist crazies in greater numbers than anything else.   As Mudcatters could have seen in 2004.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:49 AM

Good post Ron.....Unfortunately these "fringe" issues are what definite modern "liberal" democrats


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:42 PM

The Tea Party is the harbinger of things to come. The independents are fickle, as pointed out above; they also look for simple solutions. They are worried about their pocketbooks, and Obama has done nothing to re-assure them. Add the 'rightists" as Ron calls them and the makings of a majority are there.
Loss of more seats in the coming Congressional election is a given, and unless Obama can perform a miracle or two, the Republicans could regain the White House in 2012.

Ron, my "mediate" was an unfortunate word; compromise is needed but setting up the 60 against the rest meant that the lines were drawn and reason would not prevail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 03:17 PM

Loss of seats in the first midterm of a president's first term is 100% guaranteed.

Look for the Tea "Party" to push every moderate Republican -- especially Scott Brown -- to the sidelines of, or all the way out of -- the Republican party. I don't look for them to put up their own candidate for 2012, but throw their lot in with -- and most likely coopt -- the GOP.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM

Of course the Tea Party base is looking to influence the Republican Party; how much influence they will have will depend on their ability to hold the members.
How moderate Brown will be if he becomes a candidate for the nomination is questionable; if he is serious about running, he will change to attract a maximum of supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM

The Tea Party is the harbinger of things to come.

God help us.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM

The Tea Party itself so far is a focus for those who want to limit federal Government powers, limit government spending, and limit policy change.
Its weakness is the lack of a program to bring about these objectives, based on middle class fears.
If the Republican Party can propose a program based on these fears of federal centralization, they will get the votes of the angered and disaffected who are attracted to the Tea group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM

Limit government spending except for the military. Whose excesses didn't even raise their eyebrows under Bush. Which makes some liberals wonder what they REALLY want, since what they say they want so clearly isn't.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: beeliner
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM

The Tea Party is the harbinger of things to come. The independents are fickle, as pointed out above; they also look for simple solutions.

Mudcatters had best start taking Sarah seriously.

Guys (or guys and gals), the Tea party's problem is that it hasn't presented ANY solutions, easy, difficult, or anywhere inbetween. Ms. Palin certainly didn't present any in her speech - nothing but empty rhetoric.

She is such a ninny she wasn't even able to handle the governorship of Alaska - she resigned amid mounting scandals.

My own lifetime is filled with a succession of "populist revolution" candidates - Henry Wallace, George Wallace, Gene McCarthy, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, Ralph Nader, Ron Paul, Ross Perot, regardless of your opinion of their politics, every single one of them with more intelligence in his little finger than Sarah Palin has between her ears.

Take her seriously? That's a good one! I gotta say, though, I hope she runs on a third party ticket, that will split the conservative vote and assure a Democrat victory in 2012.

But all that having been said, it's still the economy, first ands foremost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:37 PM

"If the economy and war situations don't improve drastically--especially the economy--President Obama (or any other Democrat) will have big problems."

What the Dems HAVE to do, and soon, is nail the Republicans--without mercy--regarding the debt they (the Dems) inherited. I think that any reference to Palin would be very counter-productive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:41 PM

The movie scene this whole thing reminds me of is from "BCATSDK". Newman has to fight this big sonuvagun who draws a Bowie knife the size of New Hampshire. Newman says to him, "Let's decide the rules first." The guy answers, "What? Rules in a knife fight?" Newman then gives him a seriously hard kick in the stones. As the guy begins to crumble, Newman says, "OK. If there's no rules, let's get the fight started." The Dems are pussycats compared to the Republicans at playing dirty. It's time they learned, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:58 PM

The Mayan calendar predicts an end to the world as we know it in 2012. Did they foresee Palin?

Ring, the media didn't do anything to Palin, she hung herself for being an air head who couldn't answer the simplest questions.

I suppose she could get the republican nomination, Warren Harding got it and he was another witless flange head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

Seems to me the nation should have learned that voting for someone who is too dumb to run for dogcatcher and can only push buttons with borrowed rhetoric is BAD for the nation and the world. It isn't like it was very long ag--around 2000 I think--and surely responsible citizens can remember that far back...what? Oh. Well, never mind then.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:26 PM

Here is another sample of her coherence:

(At the Tea Party Caucus) "Palin urged the crowd to support Perry's conservative policies and gave a speech filled with comparisons between her home state and Texas. "Washington is broken. But your state under Governor Perry's leadership is setting an example that really a whole lot of other people now want to start following. And, as they say, if it ain't broke, why fix it?" Palin said.

And a blogger responded:

"She's kidding, right? A brief glance at any recent statistics shows that Texas rates at or near the bottom nationwide in terms of health coverage, crime rates, education and childhood poverty.

"As a Texan, I'm really offended at some Alaskan moron coming to my state and telling me how it is, especially when none of her assertions are based in reality."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:12 PM

Yes, take her seriously. As a whole lot of people did not take Reagan or GWB seriously. And lived to regret it.

As I've noted earlier, her chosen trajectory is that of Reagan.    And we'd best hope--and try to ensure as best we can in our small ways--that the run-up to to 2012 does not resemble that to 1980.

And I've already noted one of the obvious ways that Mudcatters and others left of center can try to defuse Sarah. Not that people left of center are likely to take this advice.

The other way I've also noted--question is whether it's too late now. Those who pushed hard for the public option should have realized their best chance was Olympia Snowe's "trigger".   Among other things that would have brought her on board the health care reform process--at a time she was being called a "traitor" to her party by zealots within it. Who knows, maybe she would have switched parties if given a better reception to her "trigger" suggestion.

Now the best chance is pushing your Representatives to pass the Senate bill as is--and with every day that becomes less and less likely.

And it becomes more and more likely that this Congress will in fact be tagged as a "do-nothing Congress."   With predictable results in the fall.

As David Plouffe has pointed out, the Republicans will hang Democrats for the health care reform plan--whether or not the Democrats now pass it. So:   "...hanged for a sheep as for a lamb".

It seems clear that some conservative Democrats will not accept the"nuclear option". It's the liberals--including the unions--who have to accept the Senate bill as is.   And so far, there's no indication they will. Partly since they have not heard from constituents--like
American Mudcatters-- that they should.

And, what's more, they have to pass the health care bill soon--so that Congress can get back to a direct assault on the economic slump, while having something they can claim as an accomplishment.   After all, does anybody think that the Congress elected this fall will be any more amenable to progressives' wishes?    If so, I have a bridge to sell them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:34 PM

And if you think Sarah will present herself as a wacko religious airhead, think again.   Even a Mudcatter--and one not on the Right--has said that listening to her on one program, she sounded sensible.   She will be well coached to do that--and by then she will have learned that after winning your party's nomination, you play toward the center.

As one poster has noted, our best chance is that the "Tea Party" splits off from the Republicans.   History of third parties does not support this.   Unless the "Tea Party" supporters are so turned by intra-party squabbles--before the primaries-- that they refuse to support Republicans, the "Tea Party", like so many others, will be co-opted.   In fact if Sarah is the nominee, the Tea Party won't have to make many compromises.

Also, don't forget that it's independents who really hold the whip hand. And they of course are not tied to any party.   If they are impressed with Sarah--for whatever reason, regardless of whether we think it's drivel--the Democrats have problems.

And if the economy is still in the doldrums in 2011-2012, it's painfully obvious what the main Republican mantra will be:   "Change".    Sound familiar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:54 PM

"...turned off by intra-party squabbles..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:29 PM

...if you think Sarah will present herself as a wacko religious airhead...

IF?? WILL?? She has done from the first.

Simple Seeker's talking to himself again and impressing himself mightily. But then, he's been the star in his own home-produced movie for a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:47 PM

Greg F, I'd like to hear what you have to say on the matter. Surely we can use all the voices and opinions we can conjure?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:44 AM

sensible

?


"If we attack Iran like most Americans want, well then the country would be united again and we would have reason to be proud again!"


naw, she ain't sensible.

If we need to point to the last absolute US American military invasion victory we would have to go all the way back to Reagan and the gret victory over the country of Grenada.


Was our Panama war a success? We did capture Noreiga but Chania bought the canal. The Persian Gulf war left Saddam in power.
Iraq is not mission accomplished and neither is Afghanistan Uzbekistan pakistan Somaali and the rest.

Hail Grenada, our last great VICTORY!

that is, until the military genius of Sarah Palin might lead the way to wiping Iran off the map.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:33 AM

Obama to Palin???..What is this ? The changing of the guard? One celebrity for another?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

The Tea Baggers Credo: THE ONLY ENEMY OF REAL GOD FEARING AMERICANS IS THE Unconstitutional control and spending of Big Goverment.


Waking up America and understanding common sense.

Obama will lead you to enslavement and extermination just as we have seen tyrants in history attack their own people during times of economic hardship. Never mind if he is not qualified to be the legal President, what he and his fascist communists have done is to buy up our car companies and banks with our tax payers money and plunged us into historic debt.
Big Goverment needs Texas more than Texas needs Big Goverment.
Big Goverment needs to end democracy, liberty and gun rights to leave American families defensless. We won't let them take our guns without a fight!

(shouts of support from the crowd like "Yeah Git 'em!" )

We are being called racist christian gun nuts just because we are standing up for what our country used to stand for...Freedom!
We stand for down to earth sanity and will bring down tyrants from the top down and fill Congress from the bottom up with real Americans who love and worship God. We have the common sense answers to every goverment theft of our land water and income. We understand the common sense that it is ungodly murder to kill our unborn babies.

(Big cheers fromt he crowd)

The Bernie Madoffs and the Barak Hussein Obamas of this world will pay for their stealing from hard working Americans, and will feel the wrath of our common sense. If they don't undertand we will elect Real Americans who do and get rid of the rest who just don;t get it. College Professors don't get it, Hypocritical Hollywood types don't get it, Hip Hoppers don't get it, Liberals don't get it, Unions don't get it, Tree hugging global hoaxers don't get it....BUT WE WILL SHOW THEM WHO DOES - Stand up America and show them who gets it !
We are the Tea Bag Army!
every one of us cares!
We are all armed and not afraid to use them
to save our country from queers.

(THe crowd goes wild)

YAAAY YAAAA WAHOOOOOOOOOO WHOOP WHOOP WOOF WOOF WOOF
God bless America
Land that I love
stand beside her and guide her
to drink tea and be free
from the thugs.

God bless Sarah Palin God Bless freedom from regulations God Bless the roots of our Liberty that needs to be watered with blood.


(now the crowd is in a rivalist frenzy with people speaking in tongues, guys firing pistols in the air and Fox news people celebrating as they run for cover.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:44 AM

wow
now thats a convention!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

Yes, I'm with Ebbie. I'd love to hear your contributions, Greg.   Since I somewhat suspect you disagree with my views. ( Just a hunch.)

Please, of course, ground your observations in logic and political awareness. (We wouldn't want to think you were a master of puerile resentment and nothing else--which we know of course is not true.)

Thanks.   I knew you would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:46 AM

"Judson Phillips is a Tennessee lawyer, specializing in personal injury lawsuits, drunk-driving cases and men who get into trouble beating their wives. It was his idea to incorporate Tea Party Nation as a money-making venture and charge $349 to hear Sarah Palin talk about what's wrong with America over steak and lobster this weekend in Nashville.

Andrew Young is a North Carolina lawyer, specializing in John Edwards. The deceptions. The baby born to the mistress. It was his job to make sure the Diet Sprite never ran low. And when Edwards suggested that Young co-habitate with the senator's mistress, to further an outrageous lie, Young set up the guest room and explained to his family that they now had new members.

If there's money to be made hitching your wagon to a politician trading in populism, well, who can fault these fine men for seizing the opportunity. They must know, the check is more reliable than the politician.

Palin and Edwards are two of an American archetype, opportunists playing to outrage while taking care of themselves. They are both attractive, with that lucky combination of genes that rarely lands on more than one member of an extended family. They can both hold an audience without saying anything of substance, or even making sense.

They repeat certain phrases: "good people," "real Americans" and "God's will" for Palin; "hard-working folks," "two Americas" and "millworker's son" for Edwards. Code words, time-worn and simple, that say: I'm one of you.

Members of the Tea Party movement, from people who can't stand having an African-American in the White House to those genuinely concerned about the sea of debt, share at least one thing: they fear the country has gone to ruination.

They see "elites" in banking, on Wall Street, in Washington, getting theirs at a time when average income did not go up a dime over the last, lost decade. They should be mad. America is passing them by.

Edwards at one point claimed to be their leader, to share their pain, even before this movement had a name. His acolyte of 10 years, the attorney Andrew Young, believed every word.
Sarah Palin on her book tour in DecemberAssociated Press Sarah Palin on her book tour in December.

But Edwards was scamming him. The senator drove a clunker to rallies — someone else's car — but tooled around in his Lexus or BMW in private. He wore Armani suits, careful to tear the label off. While he nested in a $6 million mansion of nearly 30,000 square feet, he complained about the "fat rednecks" he had to listen to, those people living in trailers, with no health insurance, the other Americans.

And the scam extended to loyal donors, most notably Bunny Mellon, the 99-year-old heir to a dynastic family, whose money was solicited to cover up the mistress story, in Young's account.
Now Young has found the light, he says in "The Politician," his tell-all book. "Virtually every word that came of his mouth was a lie," he says of Edwards, "but it was convincing."

Palin is trying to get in front of the same parade that Edwards wanted to lead. When she quit on her state, barely halfway through a single term as governor, her explanation was a classic of incoherence.
She never mentioned the obvious reason for resigning: to get rich, quick. Nothing wrong with that; it's as American as late-night ads for the Snuggie — the blanket with sleeves! But why not come out and say it, instead of cloaking it in some larger cause?

If Palin truly believed in the Tea Partiers and their discontent, she would not be charging $100,000 to stoke their fears. She can do that for free, on Fox. And what policy solutions does she offer the troubled middle class? Tax cuts, like the ones that caused this massive deficit to begin with? Preventing new regulation of the banks that got us into this horrid economic collapse, under the guise of "less government"?

She has nothing to offer but honeyed words, the syrup for suckers. "

NYT


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:07 AM

Why don't you simply tell me what I think, Simple Seeker, as you usually do? Would save me a lot of time & effort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:56 AM

So, Greg, you're incapable of expressing yourself?    So sorry to hear that--and it certainly is remarkable in an alleged professor. But I'm sure it couldn't possibly be that you actually have no constructive ideas to contribute.   So that's a relief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:10 PM

Whee-dee-dee-dee-dee whee-dee-dee-dee-dee whee-um-um-away (2x)

Down in Nashville, in seedy Nashville, Miss Palin sips tonight
At the party, the humble party, Miss Palin sips tonight

(Amos: I can tell you stories about Mr. J.P. He's my wife's ex.)

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:32 PM

Monsieur
O..O
=o= ,

Does J.P. know how to turn a buck into a bundle?
If so, how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:02 PM

Palin holds a full house, 3 war cards and two oil cards.

Obama has an economy card, a jobs card, a bail out card, a health care card and a war card.

Palin goes all in with the backing of unlimited Corporate funding.

Obama stares at his cards and slowly strokes his chin, he looks up at Palin with a fatherly admonition and says, "All in" as he lays down his flush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM

LOL!

Amerigasm

If you watch to the end, you can actually see her sneaking a peek at what she'd written on her hand while answering a question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:11 PM

Does J.P. know how to turn a buck into a bundle?

His history doesn't give one much hope.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:23 PM

We are at Defcon 3 Madame President. If our answer to the suspected terrorist subway explosion in Queens is to be made, it must be made now. What shall it be? Plan A by nuking Iran, plan B by nuking Iraq Iran and Afghanistan, or plan C - nuking every nation that is not a member of NATO, or have you a plan D of your own ???

President Palin looks down at the palm of her hand that is glistening with perspiration and says gigglingly, "By golly I had a plan D but it got all smudgy from my hot toddy tea. Why doncha just go with Plan A through C until I get back in touch with my Pastor, Oh and by the way, tell Roger Ailes that as soon as he has camera crews in place we are ready to go."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:31 PM

nothin to watch, you have to sign in, register and be a member to see the clip?

I did see it on TV though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:40 PM

I'm not a member and I was able to watch it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:41 PM

I like how the batshit hypocrite can read from crib notes in her palm to answer a mindlessly simple question, but denigrates Obama for using a teleprompter to give a long speech. I don't so much blame her - you can't really blame a rock for not being sentient - but her handlers and to a lesser extent her mindless minions for not calling her on her hypocrisy.

Okay, I was just kidding about that. You can't blame them either.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:52 PM

You are right Carol.
I was using Opera and haven't downloaded adobe flash for Opera yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:47 AM

These are simply Ross Perot supporters who are older and wiser now, and more politically astute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM

I have seen nothing to cause me to think these people are the least bit politically astute. Perotistas were genius masterminds in comparison.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: beeliner
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 10:36 AM

Perot had well-thought-out platforms, whether you agreed and whether they were tenable or not.

Sarah Palin's only platforms are the ones in her shoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

I don't think Perot was in-synch with the people who supported him. If he was he would have let Richard Lamm run in 1996. If that had happened, we probably wouldn't even have a Tea Party movement today.
          Whether Lamm won or lost, the issues would have been presented to the public, and whoever won in '96 would have had to address them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:07 PM

I have seen nothing to cause me to think these people are the least bit politically astute.

Sure they are. They figured out that they needed some female eye candy as the face of their movement if they wanted to win anything (because that's all they've got).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:49 PM

Which, of course, seems to be more than anyone else has got, at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:48 PM

Palin was an intentional "accident" invented by Karl Rove as an attempt to equal or best the Democratic ticket which had a woman running for President. Bobby Jindle was also a Republican response to the Democrats having a dark skinned candidate.

A day before Palin was announced Karl Rove spoke of the Republican party introducing a soft Republican woman into the area of Presidential politics. You see they always portrayed Hillary as shrill and hard edged so they would have a soft curvacious alternative to Hillary in Sarah.

As we see now, not much thought or vetting went into their desperate decision to throw McCain the female vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:20 PM

The radical Christian right has been cultivating Sara Palin for years, Donuel. She is one of the people the dominionist movement is hoping will help the accomplish their goal of taking over the government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:23 PM

Donuel, please document Karl Rove referring to a woman candidate - soft or otherwise - the day before McCain introduced Palin. Please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

Hmmmmmmm, Carol, ya' think that Christain Right would be dumb (like a fox) enough to get this woman elected... She does seem to have no real core principles other than pablum sound bites... But then again, pablum sounds bites is what the Christain Right is all about... Other than goobs of money and power...

Yeah, it would be genious on their part but me thinks that Ms. Sarah ain't all that controlable so I'd warn the CR to be carefull what they ask for...

As for tea??? How about a nudie shoot in Playboy with Ms. Sarah dressed in nothin' but a tea cup??? I kinda like it... Might even buy a copy... Nah... Ain't bought one since Martin Luther King was interviewed so unless they were doin' one heck of an interview that month, I'd prolly just borrow my brother's copy... Jus funnin'... I ain't the Playboy type...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:36 AM

Still waiting for anybody to say why we should not take Sarah seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:48 AM

Sarah has been down the frivolous law suit road before. She's discovered that when you are not personally wealthy your political enemies will file all kinds of meaningless law suits to bankrupt you and keep you off the public stage. The Kennedys and the Rockerfellers don't have this problem, so nobody ever sues them, not even when they drive they cars into rivers and allow passengers to drown. The House ethics committee won't even investigate Jane Harman because they think she has enough money to fend off the investigators.

         Knowing all of that, the deep thinking American public will not take Sarah seriously until--or unless--she amasses a vast personal fortune first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

You're right Ron. Her singular lack of intelligence, her belief in an extreme form of Christian fundamentalism, her appeal to Americans' worst angels are all reasons we SHOULD take her seriously. I still think she is the kind of politician who can win primaries by bringing out the base and then lose the general election by scaring the hell out of independents, but that's not a certainty by any means. We don't need to look too far back in our history (2004) to see an example of Americans electing a moronic right-wing idealogue to our highest office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:24 PM

Alaska's legislature is in session right now. They have already passed two bills that hark directly to Palin: 1) A governor's duty station in Alaska is in Juneau, the capital city, and 2) A governor shall not be paid per diem for staying in their own home.

At this point, just about everybody in Alaska likes Governor Sean Parnell. Reason? He is not Sarah Palin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:29 PM

Right, Neil.   The way the primary system is now set up, she's in the catbird seat for that.

Then the question really becomes if the economy has substantially recovered by 2011-2012. And statistics won't be the determining factor.   Crucial issue will be if people in general feel better about their own economic positions---not what figures get quoted at them.

If they don't feel good, then Sarah, the master of articulating anger and resentment, stands an alarmingly good chance of being the first female US president. Particularly since (non-liberal) women may feel it is in fact time for that step.   It will be very interesting to see how many who say they supported Hillary will now line up behind Sarah.

It's a bit discouraging how many Mudcatters seem to rely on wishful thinking--and seem to specialize in underestimating their opponents.

Wishful thinking has won amazingly few elections.

It's time for some Mudcatters to wake up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:40 PM

Wake up and do what?

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:55 PM

Wake up, and, if you are an American voter, tell your Representative to pass the Senate health bill as is, so Congress can get on to other things: specifically doing more to try to combat the recession--and not be seen as wasting huge amounts of time and effort with nothing to show for it.

Wake up and in general be more willing to compromise--don't see every concession to the other side (even Democratic opponents) as treason against "what we stand for".

As I said earlier, stop trashing religion--it seems likely that attitude is also visible outside Mudcat---and stop pushing for politically poisonous ideas like homosexual marriage. Both of those bring out even more supporters of the current Rightist demogogue--you'd play right into Sarah's hands.   You would think the Left would have learned from 2004--when this is exactly what happened.

In a contest between intolerant atheists and the "Religious Right", numbers count. So in the US the atheists have no chance. All they do is inflame the other side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Neil D
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 01:42 AM

Trashing religion is really a non-issue because no one is doing it. No one in politics, not even the most liberal members of congress, nor anyone in the mainstream media, not even the most left-wing pundits on MSNBC is trashing religion. Sure, here in this little folk lovin' universe you find your fair share of agnostics, atheists, heathens, etc. Some of them might even be considered stridently so. But in the country at large it's not even in play unless you are calling the defense of free thought and reason from attacks by reactionary fundamentalism an attack on religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:53 AM

It depends on what some Mudcatters-- and others who feel similarly-- are doing offline. For instance, the push for taking 10 Commandments plaques out of courthouses--and calling those who wanted to keep them religious bigots comes close to trashing religion.

And this is exactly how it was pictured by fundamentalists to their followings.

It's entirely too easy for quite a few Leftists to picture any opposition to their views--on quite a few issues--as religious bigotry.

We have even had a Mudcatter who claimed that Hitler had no choice but to be a mass murderer--after all, he was raised Catholic.

This is what I mean by "trashing religion."

And it helps Sarah--immensely--in her efforts to portray any opposition to her as opposition to religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Ebbie, go to the videotape of Rove live on FOX cable news the day before her appearence with McCain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:39 PM

The one hopeful thing about Sarah, though, is that the more people have a chance to see her and get to know her, the lower her poll numbers go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:42 PM

Any interest group can groom a candidate. That does not mean there is a national conspiracy to do so. There is an interest group conspiracy to do so.

Thing is, Palin appeals to many military families as much as fringe religious groups, and that makes her base stronger, not just church groups. She found she can not rely on oil money outside campaigning so she has gone rogue with a hired book and speechifyin at tea parties.

Her polls have dropped 10 points since her book tour however.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 02:05 PM

Time for another book tour, I suppose. She can crank them out one after another. None of these people write their own books anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

What would it be about? She's nearly overtopped her ability to remember things with this one.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 02:30 PM

She could just make everything up (with the help of her ghost writer) like she did with the first book.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 03:34 PM

Well, Donuel, I did NOT find this: "A day before Palin was announced Karl Rove spoke of the Republican party introducing a soft Republican woman into the area of Presidential politics." However, I did find another example of her brilliant discourse:

"(Wolf) BLITZER: Another question. What are your new ideas on how to take the Republican Party out of this rut that it's in right now? Give me one or two new ideas that you're going to propose to these governors who have gathered here in this hotel."

    "PALIN: Well, a lot of Republican governors have really good ideas for our nation because we're the ones there on the front lines being held accountable every single day in service to the people whom have hired us in our own states and the planks in our platform are strong and they are good for America. It's all about free enterprise and respecting the ..."

    "BLITZER: Does that mean you want to come up with a new Sarah Palin initiative that you want to release right now."

    "PALIN: Gah! Nothing specific right now. Sitting here in these chairs that I'm going to be proposing but in working with these governors who again on the front lines are forced to and it's our privileged obligation to find solutions to the challenges facing our own states every day being held accountable, not being just one of many just casting votes or voting present every once in a while, we don't get away with that. We have to balance budgets and we're dealing with multibillion dollar budgets and tens of thousands of employees in our organizations."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:38 PM

"She could just make everything up (with the help of her ghost writer) like she did with the first book."

            Yeah well, that's pretty much the way American politicians do it these days; then they sell it on the market as nonfiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:50 AM

As I said, Mudcatters have to stop underestimating her.

All she has to do is continue to articulate the frustration and bitterness felt by lots of Americans:   "How's that hopey-changey thing working out for you?"--and she is doing this perfectly--and she will be sitting pretty in 2011.

Especially since it looks like child's play to depict this Congress as a "do-nothing Congress". The public will not look at Republican obstructionism as the main source of the problem, much as Mudcatters devoutly wish they would.

It will be very simple:   "You have a Democratic House, Democratic Senate, and Democratic President.    Yet you still can't get anything done. Re-elect Democrats?    What possible indication do we have that that will improve anything?"

And the overwhelming cause of this is Democrats' unwillingness to compromise-- primarily with each other, but also with the few Republicans willing to brave their own party--like Olympia Snowe.   But compromise is what you have to do when you have a "big tent" situation.

And after the Democratic debacle which looks more and more likely this fall, there will be, if anything, more gridlock.    Then in 2012 President Obama has to run on this record.

It looks progressively more likely that the only thing that can change this is a huge economic surge--soon. Especially since Democrats still show no signs of willingness to compromise.

I suppose it goes back to Will Rogers:    "I'm not a member of an organized party...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM

When I heard that Gov. Palin had written notes on her hand, I thought maybe there was a reason. Maybe she'd thought of a great one-liner that required letter-perfect delivery. A zinger so potent that it would plunge the White House into confusion and leave the rest of us chuckling in appreciation, eager to vote Republican ASAP.

But what she'd written was:

"Energy, Budget Cuts, Tax, Lift Americans' Spirits."

That's what she couldn't retain without notes. And for some reason she didn't want us to see her using note cards, like grownup speakers do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

I've been listening to some pundits online lately. One man said he believes that at this point she is learning and retaining only enough information to deliver a zinger but that she has no material for a follow up question.

And that man isn't even necessarily anti-Palin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM

Leonard Pitt, Jr, with some great points:

"I hear you're pondering a run for the White House in 2012. Last week, you told Fox news it would be "absurd" to rule it out. I'm writing to ask that you rule it in. I very badly want you to run for - and "win" - the Republican nomination for the presidency.

"I know you're waiting for the punch line. Maybe you figure I think you'd be a weak candidate who would pave the way for President Obama's easy re-election.

"That's not it. No, I want you to run because I believe a Palin candidacy would force upon this country a desperately needed moment of truth. It would require us to finally decide what kind of America we want to be.

"Mrs. Palin, you are an avatar of the shameless hypocrisy and cognitive disconnection that have driven our politics for the last decade, a process of stupidification (love that word! Eb) creeping like kudzu over our national life."

Run, Sarah, Run


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

"... candidacy would force upon this country a desperately needed moment of truth. It would require us to finally decide what kind of America we want to be."

What a stupid point.

Of course stupidity is always in the offing...
We have chosen Harding, Fillmore, Grant, Hayes,Nixon Reagan Bush and Bush Bush,

you really think we need to choose Palin just to be sure if devout hypocritical stupidity represents America best> roll eyes.

I have a better idea!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets have a CHRISTIAN children's crusade in the Middle East!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:38 PM

You have missed his whole thesis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM

There are always a few pupils in every class who think Voltaire was advocating eating babies.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:07 PM

You mean it wasn't Swift who was advocating that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM

There's always one student who writes down the wrong author in his notebook. This is only a problem if he tries to show off his knowledge later. Poor, confused fool.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:01 AM

Although in my defense I have this over Palin: I knew there were things called "books" before I wrote one.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:25 AM

Why dont you listen to Don....A guy I rarely agree with, but on this occasion he is dead right.

The "Right" are scared shitless by Mrs Palin, they realise the power she holds and how uncontrollable that power is.
If the left had even half as much insight they would realise Sarah could be their greatest asset.

As Don says compromise is the key, to get what you want in politics you have to be as devious as the politicians.

The UK press are already dubbing Sarah ...."Eva Palin", so ask yourself what future do you want? Do you want to be dragged by the nose back into the failed system, screwing a few crumbs from those who run it, while bankrolling it with your tax dollars? as Mr Obama would have you do, or are you prepared to elect a non politician, who will lead from the heart.
It will mean abandoning some of the "poisonous policies" mentioned earlier, but Palin will lead in the name of the people,because, first and foremost she is a populist and will be amenable to change if the people demand it.

"I will live and die for the American people"...."Eva Palin"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:29 AM

You won't get another chance!
Next in line will be Hillary.....Then you'll be really fucked!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:13 AM

"Although in my defense I have this over Palin: I knew there were things called "books" before I wrote one."

                So, how many did you write?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

Her power is not as great as you think akeneton. Even the teabaggers are now throwing her under the bus, and they were her base until recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:37 AM

Nothing like wanting it both ways:

"...realise the power she holds and how uncontrollable that power is."


"...will be amenable to change if the people demand it."

May I suggest that you have not a clue as to what motivates the fair lady?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

"teabaggers are throwing her under the bus..."   Direct quotes, please, with source. And one disgruntled "teabagger" can't be extrapolated into a rejection of Sarah--unless there are complaints that many would likely identify with.

If complaints about reading notes for a speech on her hand are the main reason Mudcatters think she is not formidable, they need to think again.

Look, it's possible that she could self-destruct--but it's the Democrats who seem now to be busily engaged in that task--by their unwillingness to compromise, primarily with each other.

At this point she is the perfect spokesman for the angry, frustrated non-liberal masses--including large numbers of "tea-baggers."   The Republicans realize this.   Since her views dovetail so well with those of the Republican true believers who tend to vote in primaries, the primaries are hers to lose. And, believe it or not, this is no cause for celebration by liberals.

In the general election people tend to vote their pocketbooks, unless there is a hot war going on. At this point neither issue favors President Obama--unfortunately. Obviously it's early--that's the only factor now in his favor.    But the midterms seem also unlikely to help him--to say the least.

Many Mudcatters seem to be world champions at denial, but denial has won remarkably few elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM

Piss off, Davies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM

I don't argue with trolls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:53 PM

Hi Carol...You and I have discussed this on another thread and I know you disagree, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

The left are never going to change conservative America by trying to push what is to many people a mad "socialist" agenda, the country is simply too polarised for that to happen.

Furthermore, many "right wing" ideals are worth keeping in any new world. The idea of personal freedom AND personal responsibility should not be thrown overboard; and "socialist" policies presented by a government like the one we have in the UK can be all too easily abused when the people lose respect for those who administer them.

Change, will be a long slow process, both in the US and the UK, but it is completely unachievable by a leader and administration who are wedded to the present social/economic system

I have always felt the the ordinary people of America have it in them to produce a new way of life...they lack the bitter cynicism of the Brits, have retained for the most part, a faith in their God and their country, and a wonderful optimism that they can make anything happen if they just put enough effort into it.

God knows why they have retained these things, given the way they have been treated by successive corporate owned governments, but they have, and these ideals are the base for a new better, more free and just society.

For any of this to happen we must forget all the things which have been set up to divide us and stop electing representatives who are joined at the hip to a system, which over the last year, has been shown to be the ultimate scam....Ake

These things are a basis


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

I think the Republicans will probably "smother" Sarah.....they cant take the chance and let her live, she's too much of a wild card..


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said in your 15 Feb 10 - 12:53 PM post, akeneton. I'm just saying that it's not so much of a foregone conclusion that Palin could be the person that would do that. For two reasons... she is entirely wedded to her "brand" and her drive to increase her income, and because of this, the people who really are as you describe the American electorate can see right through her. The teabag movement has determined that she is willing to sell out what she says she stands for in order to line her pockets and suck up to the king makers. They've rolled her under the bus because of her endorsement of John McCain instead of the candidate they preferred in Arizona, and because of her $100,000 speaker fee at the recent teabagger convention. She's on their shit list now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM

Yes, I understand what you're saying Carol, but unfortunately, in America it appears that without "money" and lots of it, electoral success is almost impossible.
It would obviously take a huge "popoular" movement to get somebody elected on "principle".....maybe you're right and the country is just no ready for a revolution.

One thing is certain the people on here who shoot down everyone who doesn't wear the proper lapel badge(I know you are not such a person) especially if they happen to be a powerful woman are helping no one.

I'm sure your next president will be female, I just hope it's not Hillary, she's so steeped in the old politics of division.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

I don't think we can say right now that our next president won't be our current president. And if he is, that gives us a few more years to come up with some viable candidates. That's a very long time in political term in the US. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Palin and Clinton would be the only female candidates who would have a chance of success that far down the road. And from the behavior of her poll numbers, it looks like Palin will not have a chance of success (in terms of winning the presidency) at any point in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

This piece by a "right wing" commentator in the Sunday Times, conveys the sense of fear and loathing in which many conservatives hold Sarah Palin

From The Sunday Times February 14, 2010

Fear Palin, a warrior messiah on a mission
Sarah Palin's speech last weekend revealed a woman driven by a sense of divine destiny
(Ed Reinke)
Sarah Palin

Andrew Sullivan


So does tomorrow truly belong to her? I refer, of course, to the former governor of Alaska, who quit when she was barely past the middle of her first term because, as she explained, she was not a quitter. I refer to the first vice-presidential nominee in modern times to run for office without holding a single press conference.

I refer to a person who had no idea why there was a South Korea and a North Korea; who had trouble understanding that Africa is a continent, not a country; who believes that the first amendment guarantees the right of politicians not to be criticised too harshly; who thinks climate change is "snake-oil science"; who thinks gays can — and should be — cured; and who last weekend electrified a small gathering of Tea party supporters in Nashville, Tennessee, with a speech deemed so important that it was broadcast live on a Saturday night on every cable news station.

The answer, I am sorry to report, is: possibly. I watched Sarah Palin's speech live and, if you leave any consideration of substance out of it, it was the most talented and effective performance of any Republican politician since Ronald Reagan. She has astonishing levels of charisma and a profound connection to her constituency: white, rural, evangelical, fundamentalist voters now roiled into ever greater levels of populist ire, with a president called Barack Hussein Obama who does nuance pretty well. She is also prepared to go where other, more — shall we say — responsible conservatives usually don't.

Two lines stood out for me. The first was a sign that she believes and her followers believe that she has some kind of divine destiny. She has repeatedly written and said that everything is in God's hands and that her future is simply to obey his will. In her question-and-answer session she explicitly called for "divine intervention" to save America from its current president, while openly declaring that she could well run for president in 2012.

Last week she cast herself in the mould of the biblical figure of Queen Esther, a story deeply embraced by the religious right. There was also her Eva Peron moment on Saturday in Nashville: "I will live, I will die for the people of America."

This is not the rhetoric of a politician. You cannot imagine even a late-stage Margaret Thatcher saying such a thing without being laughed off the stage. It has the apocalyptic tones of the leader of a movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:03 PM

Yes, I agree, Obama might get re-elected. While Sarah Palin is sipping tea, and number of folks are drinking Kool-Aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM

Our current president is Barack Obama. The president elected in the next election could also be Barack Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM

My last was a response to this one: 15 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

Andrew Sullivan is hardly a right wing commentator. He used to be somewhat "right wing", but he's gone over to the other side in recent years. One can't determine what the right wing people are thinking by reading anything he says.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM

You may be right Carol, but I feel the numbers and his personna are against him serving a second term

IF we ever want to lose our chains now is the time to strike. I have never seen Capitalism in such disarray.

In today's newspapers, there is talk of the UK govt raising purchase tax on almost everything we buy to help fund the debt incurred by the bank bailout.
If we allow them to get away with this blatant robbery, then it is already too late, our spirit has been crushed, our future, slavery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: pdq
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM

"This piece by a "right wing" commentator {Andrew Sullivan} in the Sunday Times, conveys the sense of fear and loathing in which many conservatives hold Sarah Palin..." ~ Ake

"Andrew Sullivan, the premier gay writer at The New York Times, was about to speak on "The Emasculation of Gay Politics."" ~ NYT

Blaming what looney Andrew Sullivan say on "conservatives" is sorta like blaming what Charles Manson did on "liberals" or what David Duke says on Democrats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:55 PM

akeneton, I agree with much of what you say. My main difference is that the candidates (or potential candidates) whom you feel would help bring about the changes we need, I see as being candidates (or potential candidates) who are working for either the corporatocracy, the people who are trying to create in this country a theocracy, or (as in the case of Palin), both.

I haven't given up on Obama yet. I'm willing to give him some more time before I decide what I think about his presidency. Beyond him, I really don't see anybody other than Kucinich whom I would say embodies the kind of candidate/president who would actually do what needs to be done (that is, if Congress would allow him to).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:58 PM

PDQ...I was unaware that Sullivan was homosexual, but I suppose some homosexuals are also political conservatives.

Sullivan supported the Iraq War and is certainly not a radical, but then,from my perspective, not many are :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:07 PM

I'm surprised that you are sticking with Obama Carol...what do you expect him to do? Most of the really nasty stuff is well out of his control.

I like Kucinich myself but he simply hasen't the charisma to do the job and looking from here, he could no more crack "Middle America" than Obama has done.....Its got to be the heart first, head second.

As we used to say   "Up here for thinkin' doon there for dancin'"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM

Ake - God will not ride to the rescue, and God has consistently been on the side of the big and rich battalions. One of the things that America needs (and we can now see after watching Tony Blair enter delusions of religious calling) that we need is a damn sight less religion, and a damn sight more rationality.

Palin's principal attraction (like Reagan and Bush jnr) is for and to people who hate to admit that they are stupid, so prefer stupid leaders. Since there are so many of them that, alas, is a dangerous combination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

So, if I'm following this: People feel better about themselves, and smarter, if they have a stupid leader, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

PDQ.....I certainly think quite a good case could be made for Charles Manson and "liberals"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

Of Geoffery Daummer and right-wing-religious-wakkos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,John
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:04 PM

About Palin:

I've got the skill set thing- Not much in the way of background in the kind of skills we ordinarily expect of presidents.

I've got the patriotic excesses about America and its enemies.

I don't get a couple of other things:

What is the "theocracy" thing. Her church isn't that kind of outfit and she seems to have a kind of Midwestern conservative attitude toward abortion and gay rights. Pro-life but not anti-abortion, pro-marriage but not anti-gay. Sometimes I don't get that stuff but that's where her people (who aren't theocratic either) come from.

Why is everybody worked up over her presidential ambitions while she is tearing huge holes in the liberal agenda as a tea party champion? Ought we not be concerned about what she is doing now instead of what we speculate she might do a couple of years from now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:04 PM

Richard......I certainly prefer stupid politicians to clever ones....much less dangerous.

and I dont see Sarah as a politician at all.

As you know, I am an atheist, but I have enough grip on reality to realise that many many people need religion to help them make sense of life.
Those people should not be alienated in our brave new world, but given strength through the goodness of the society we create.

Without them we will never create anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:00 PM

Gee, Carol, sorry you've fallen into the gutter.   Hope you can drag yourself out soon. Anybody who asks you to actually back up one of your statements is a "troll".   Very creative interpretation of the word.   Congratulations.

But for some reason no specifics on exactly which "tea-baggers" are unhappy with Sarah.

Quite enlightening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:13 PM

"...I have enough grip on reality to realise that many many people need religion to help them make sense of life."

                That's because everyone around them is addicted to religion. What's needed is a twelve-step program to obtain reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:06 AM

Guest, John, here is some background information about Palin's religious affiliations and their theocratic underpinnings...

http://open.salon.com/blog/tazlmo/2008/09/12/sarah_palins_church_tied_to_jesus_camp_armageddon_dogma

http://www.alternet.org/story/96945/theocratic_sect_prays_for_real_armageddon/?page=entire

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/5/03830/11602

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/sarah-palins-churches-and_b_124611.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:12 AM

Like I said, Davies, piss off. I don't argue with trolls.



http://www.therealitycheck.org/?p=10654

http://michellemalkin.com/2010/01/22/conservatives-beware-of-mccain-regression-syndrome/

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/01/26/right-rebels-palin


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:15 AM

Tea Party Patriots (registration is required to read)

http://www.frumforum.com/tea-partiers-turn-on-palin-for-backing-mccain


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:05 AM

Yeah, Palin is in a real tough spot here. If it hadn't been for McCain, the general public (outside of Alaska) wouldn't even know who she was. But Arizona is ground zero for saving the country by stopping illegal immigration, so she should be backing Hayworth, except she owes her very political existance to McCain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:37 AM

From the opensalon link: "Scott Parnall"? Ain't no such animal. Always bothers me when egregious mistakes such as this are made in a published article meant to bring enlightenment to readers.

Then Lieutenant Governor Sean Parnell is now governor of Alaska. According to the article he also was "blessed by laying on of hands" in Palin's church. That also bothers me. Does that mean he signs on to the same beliefs? I don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM

It would be worth finding out whose hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:50 PM

And where upon him they were lain!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM

According to the articles, it was the hands of the church pastor. I don't remember his name (and I don't feel like going back in and finding it right now). But it's in there somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

Ted Haggard is out of jail now, was it he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

And where upon him they were lain!

TMI.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

Forgot to respond to this...

I'm surprised that you are sticking with Obama Carol...what do you expect him to do? Most of the really nasty stuff is well out of his control.

I like Kucinich myself but he simply hasen't the charisma to do the job and looking from here, he could no more crack "Middle America" than Obama has done.....Its got to be the heart first, head second.

As we used to say   "Up here for thinkin' doon there for dancin'"



I'm not sticking with him. I was never totally with him in the first place. I'm just willing to give him more time before I form an opinion about his presidency. The fact is, there is no-one who can do what you are saying needs to be done, regardless of how much charisma they have, as long as our media is owned and controlled by the corporatocracy.   It's just not going to happen. They control how the vast majority of people in this country think and view reality, and until they lose the power to do this, nothing substantial is going to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM

Joe the plumber throws Palin under the bus


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:57 PM

Frankly, most of us support the 'corporatocracy', as you call it. Millions of us are employed directly by them, sell merchandise made by them, supply materials to them, and enjoy a standard of living which we see as being weakened by 'governmentocracy' (Hmmm, fun to invent useless words like the lefties).

There is anger out there, on the part of the conservative middle, who want to shrink the federal government. At this time they are a reservoir of Republican votes.

The Tea Party, with or without Palin, is just one of several loosely formed or amorphous groups of citizens who are tending toward the Republicans, and even there, McCain, Crist, and Kirk are in trouble in their bids for election or re-election to Congress because of their support of stimulus spending, position on global warming, or green initiatives.
Whether someone will emerge to form coalitions of these groups and direct the anger is questionable, but there is no doubt that the Republican Party will be a magnet for those who want to see the government and its influence reduced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:01 PM

Sarah is going to save McCain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

The issue is not supporting corporations per se; the point at which the government is looked to is the point where corporate practice slips into white-collar crime, including fraud, abuse, gouging, usury, misrepresentation, and falsifying safety and reliability of producrts in a way that puts people at risk.

This is why Glass Steagall was a good law and should not have been whimiscally cast off by the Reagan administraztion, and why the free market dream-world is alittle bit out of touch with reality. The free market is fine and worksa very well until large-scale white collar crime is injected, and as corporations grow in scale this becomes much easier to do as the corporation invests more power in fewer hands with less visibility.

It is not corporations the government needs to control per se; it is corporate malfeasance.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

Amos....That's like saying the "banks need to be regulated", of course they do, but for the economy to grow enough to make the system sustainable, even for a short time .....they need to be de-regulated.

Its a massive con, and guess who always pays?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM

So you support government by the corporations rather than by the electorate, Q?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:39 PM

It should be pointed out that that is what a corporatocracy is - corporations controlling the government. Which when you think about it, is the ultimate form of corruption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM

That's like saying the "banks need to be regulated", of course they do, but for the economy to grow enough to make the system sustainable, even for a short time .....they need to be de-regulated.

We know from experience that the opposite is true. Yes, much more spectacular growth is possible with less regulation, but it's not sustainable. Canada is not experiencing anywhere near the amount of economic problems that the US is experiencing, and one of the reasons for that is that their banks are much more strictly regulated than the banks in the US. Their growth has been slower than that of the US, but it's been much more sustainable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM

Yes Carol.. I quite agree and that's what I meant in my post by saying "sustainable even for a short time"
Sorry for not making myself clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:02 PM

It didn't last long for Mussolini either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

I would also say, that as Capitalism moves East to find new victims and causing unemployment, as people live longer and as medical treatments and diagnosis improve, the pool of money reqd to sustain our living standards also needs to keep growing.

We are in a "no win" system(most of us)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: pdq
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM

"This is why Glass Steagall was a good law and should not have been whimiscally cast off by the Reagan administraztion..." ~ Amos

"Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, (1338, enacted November 12, 1999) in the 106th United States Congress ( 1999-2001), repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933..."

Seems everything wrong in the world must be blamed on Ronald Reagan by some folks.

Glass-Steagall was signed away by Bill Clinton, 1999.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM

Yup. Clinton definitely carries some of the blame (along with the Republican Congress) for that one, as do some of his top advisors, like Robert Rubin. Clinton was a disaster for the country. No worse than the Republicans (although an improvement in some ways), but not a whole lot better in the final analysis, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM

What am I missing? Enacted in November 1999 and then 'signed away' before the year was out? Why did they bother with it?

"Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, (1338, enacted November 12, 1999)"
"Glass-Steagall was signed away by Bill Clinton, 1999."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:34 PM

Glass-Steagall was enacted in 1932. It wasn't able to prevent Ronald Reagan from destroying the economy in the 1980's, so it was eliminated in 1999 with no hope in sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: pdq
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM

At least we all agree tha Glass-Steagall had merit and should not have been ended ("signed away") by any president.

Glass-Steagall protected the public from much of the investment banking excesses that killed our economy in 2008.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:39 PM

Totally agree about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: pdq
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:58 PM

"In response to criticism of his signing the bill when President, Bill Clinton said in 2008:

"I don't see that signing that bill had anything to do with the current crisis. Indeed, one of the things that has helped stabilize the current situation as much as it has is the purchase of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, which was much smoother than it would have been if I hadn't signed that bill.... On the Glass-Steagall thing, like I said, if you could demonstrate to me that it was a mistake, I'd be glad to look at the evidence."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

The entire economy begane to unravel with the Reagan Revolution... Yeah, sometimes it takes awhile to see the effects of stuff but we are now reapin' what Reagan sewed... Socialization for the corporations and free market capitalism (sans the capital) for everyone else... Now that the crooks have corraled all the capital from deregulation we find that Henry Ford was right when he said "If I pay my workers a living wage then they will be able to afford to buy my cars"... This has been lost in the Reagan Revoultion...

Actually, it wasn't a "revolution" at all... It was quite the opposite...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:28 PM

Well said, Bobert!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:27 PM

Devolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:33 AM

Carol, Thanks for the links. Uh... I'm not sure how to say this to someone who doesn't live in the middle of American Protestant Theology.

Assembly of God is a pretty mainstream outfit (worldwide, 60 million members). They have splinters that aren't. Baptists, Methodists and particularly LDS congregations are even more split by this kind of division. In any case she left Assembly of God in 2002 for a more child-friendly church (info from Wikipedia cause I didn't know much of this stuff, either).

Carol, almost all Politicians have religious affiliations. No sensible person tries to hold Obama responsible for his Chicago minister's consciousness-raising. Mostly, we just don't care what your friends think, just what you do.

Sarah Palin has messages she is pushing right now and they have little to do with religion. Her religion is not how she is going to hurt us, if indeed she does. She focuses real people with real views on the political process. They come to hear her and they become active and they vote. These folks disagree with the principles that guide most of us.

Talking about her religion just distracts us from paying attention to an influential opponent. She is not a good person to dismiss. She is a good person to oppose with better ideas and better thought. If she is foolish or unskilled, opposing her will be easy. It is probably obvious to you that it hasn't been easy so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:11 AM

Guest, apparently Wasilla Assembly of God is not your plain old vanilla Assembly of God. It is tied to the dominionist movement, which is as much political as it is religious. So in the case of a politician who has a dominionist leaning to their religion, their religion is most definitely relevant. This is because it is a political as well as religious movement, and it is one that seeks to replace secular government with a theocratic government. This is something that everyone should know about such political figures. It is as important, if not more so, as any other aspect of their political philosophy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM

The problem with Ms. Sarah's message is that it is so shallow it's hard so figure out exactly what she believes... Lower taxes??? Well, we've tried that and it got US the largest deficit in history... Lower deficits??? Great!!! Tell US exactly where the cuts are going to come from, Ms. Sarah...

I mean, let's get real... There are one heck of alot of angry, dillusional, uneduacted people out there that vote... That is a bad combination... These folks will vote for anyone who promises lower taxes and lower governemnt spending... Then when mama goes into long term care because of that stroke she had and they find that after "x number" of days Medicare is going to make mama pay outta that $40K savings account that they thought they would inherit then they scream the loudest...

I'd like to think this was all just hypocrisy but it's that and much more... It is dumbed-down people who never were taught to think critically... Or think "period", for that matter...

We all know who these people are... They hate the government until they think it's the goveernemnt to bail them out when times are tough and they are too stupid to realize just how stupid they are...

Yet they get led like sheep to the polls to pull the levers to elect corporate crooks who have lobbiest out there everyday trying to get laws on the books that further remove the governemnt from being there for folks when times get tough???

Beam me up, Scottie... There's way too many morons down here... And they vote!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:49 AM

The name of the game is to educate the morons, but you'd have to teach them to read more than one book first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:43 PM

"We all agree"- well, all the lefties.

The Banking Act of 1933, aka Glass-Steagall bill, established the FDIC; it had some provisions meant to control speculation.
Regulation Q was repealed in 1980 when the right of the Federal Reserve to regulate interest rates in savings accounts was 'repealed by a new act, the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Act of 1980 was passed.

In 1999, provisions that prohibited a bank holding company from owning other financial companies were cancelled by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.
It was a restriction on normal growth of banking institutions and needed repeal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

And the banks grew, and were declared "too big to fail," which allowed them to steal, hand over fist, from poor people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM

It is easy to blame Clinton, if one does not agree with repeal of the section of the Glass-Steagall by the Financial Services Act, but a majority of Congressmen were in favor of the new Act.
A veto by President Clinton could not have overridden Congress.

Senate
90-8; Republicans 52-1, Democrats 38-7, in favor.

House
343-86; Republicans 205-16 Democrats 138-69, in favor.
House Democrats favored the new Act 2-1)

Figures from Wikipedia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

Steal? OK, prosecute!
Nonsense, the bubble burst and both banks and 'poor' people lost as values evaporated.

Too many people taking on mortgages that they couldn't ever hope to pay off, and banks too willing to lend, all riding the bubble.
US banks should have had the same lending restrictions as banks in Canada.
A slight dip in prices in Canada, but valuations already approaching pre-bubble valuations in Alberta; lower in some other provinces but within the normal expected swings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:17 PM

WHile I agree no-one should take on debt they cannot afford, let us not spare the bold turks who lied through their teeth to people in order to sell those mortgages to the unquialified in order to amp up their own bonuses; nor the institutions who flogged thosemortgages in bundles as nameless instruments and got them fraudulently rated as reliable instruments because their contents were invisible by reason of the massive bundling of mortgages. As a result, huge institutions invested in fraudulently rated vehicles and crashed heavily when their real value took over instead of their revealed fraudulent value. To this day their are people rolling in millions derived directly from these fraudulent lending practices. THe Glass-Steagall act prevented this kind of thing.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Smedley
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM

A slight drift: I wonder how many of the teabagging community have seen a film which I am told was one of last year's big online porno successes. It is called 'Who's Nailin' Palin ?' and I report this purely in a spirit of spreading information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:37 PM

"Steal? OK, prosecute!"


          Yes, let's. And now we can probably get a lot of Greeks to jump on the bandwagon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM

If the banks in the US had been regulated the way the banks in Canada are, this whole global economic catastrophe of the last couple of years would never have happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

The Greek government has continually borrowed beyond its means of repayment. The problem goes back years. The budget deficit now is 13% of GDP, according to websites.
The EU may be in for a shakeup, since Spain and Ireland also are close to broke. Bad government decisions and possible default on the part of Greece would damage the EU's common currency and credit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

Also, while predatory lending was definitely a part of the problem, an even bigger contributor to the problem was the creative ways they repackaged those loans and put top ratings on them in order to hide the risk from investors. This would not have happened while Glass-Steagal was still in effects, and is one of the reasons we need that kind of regulation of the financial institutions in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

The Banking Act of 1933, aka Glass-Steagall bill, which set up the FDIC,is still in effect. Only part was repealed by the Financial Services Modernization Act aka Gramm....
The result was that commercial and investment banks, securities firms, and insurance firms could merge or consolidate.

No 'vehicles' were fraudulently rated- the rates were those generally accepted although they had been riding the upward swing into oversold territory; this possibility was overlooked hence the sharp downward plunge.

The major institutions have been stabilized, but it will be a while before confidence is regained and they will start to lend again, enabling businesses to grow and begin to employ again.

Controls are needed, but tearing apart the financial institutions by putting back the part of the Banking Act that was repealed by the FSM Act won't help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:04 PM

"Bad government decisions and possible default on the part of Greece would damage the EU's common currency and credit."

          Bad government decisions, or crooked manipulators of markets and currencies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM

Yes, the US goverenemnt could will end up bankrupt if it continues to allow 30% of the wealth to not be taxed... Oh sure, the upper 5% want you to know that they pay 50% of the income taxes... What they don't want you to know is they control 80% of the wealth... That leaves 30% of the wealth not taxed...

Or, of course, as the Republicans have always wanted, we could just cut the heck outta Social Security and Medicare... Of course, that would leave our country lookin' more like a 3rd World country but, what the heck, right???

There aren't a whole lot more options here, folks...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:47 PM

Q:

How can you say no instruments were fraudulently rated?? Bundles comprising masses of sub-prime mortgage notes were rolled up together and sold as triple-A investment paper. How is that NOT fraudulent?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:10 PM

And then along came the "credit default swap" schemes where even more money was made (wrong word) on bundles of shakey paper...

Yeah, the system was designed for one purpose only: to make (wrong word) a few people alot of money and at the expense of everyone else... The sda thing is that most of the folks who made (wrong word) all that money were the first people to be made whole by the government after last year's melt down...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM

Everybody knew the content of the mortgage bundles which were bought by the major institutions who buy from smaller investment firms so that the smaller firms would have the cash to loan out to still smaller fish so they could loan on mortgages to individual builders who....
The hope was that the upward swing would continue.
It didn't.

Some large investment and holding corporations, like Berkshire Hathaway (Warren Buffett, CEO), saw the red signal and largely bailed out of the mortgage paper.
Buffett has just used his bucks to take control of Burlington Northern Santa Fe (US, biggest railway).

Goldman Sachs, who also saw problems ahead, was varied in its investments, so was able to gobble up a competitor or two.

AIG is fast getting back on its feet.

The big investment banks, insurance, pension, etc. companies are our engines for growth; improvement will be slow, but steady unless EU problems and unnecessary wars derail the US again.

China has dumped some US and EU bonds, which doesn't help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:36 PM

The problem, Q, is that this was repeating the smae things that occured in the 80s with similar results...

The other problem is that the growth in the economy for the last 8 years has been built upon debt... Now, I fully understand that if I borrow $100K that my new worth does not increase by $100K but that's kinda what we did in the 80s as well as the OOs... We created false growth by borrowing too much to support an industry (housing) that in the end did not leave us with any additional capacity to compete.... Had we borrowed for infastructure, or even for education, we would have at least come out of the end of the pipe better off.... As it turns out, we are worse off... That purdy much makes the 00s economy bogus in the big scheme of things... While others retooled, we partied...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:39 PM

"Everybody knew the content of the mortgage bundles..."

                No they didn't!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:15 PM

"I don't argue with trolls".   Let me translate:   "I don't answer any question I don't feel like answering."

First let me say how it pains me that the poster still maintains her residence in the gutter. But, who knows, perhaps she's more comfortable there. And we want her above all to be comfortable.

I have to say I cannot begin to convey how shocked I am that the poster, despite being asked politely to do so (15 Feb 2010 11:59 AM), has somehow not found time to provide any evidence whatsoever that "tea-baggers" are rejecting Sarah (a topic which actually has far more relevance to the thread than many others now under discussion).

This is truly a cataclysmic event, since the poster in the past has always without fail been so calm, well-informed and rational.

Nor has she admitted she was incorrect in her assertion. This is also a first, since one of her most positive attributes has always been her easy willingness to acknowledge any misstatement.

I suppose we may have to grapple with the awful possibility that she may, in this instance, be mistaken.

Another idol shattered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 08:32 AM

Bobert,

"Oh sure, the upper 5% want you to know that they pay 50% of the income taxes... What they don't want you to know is they control 80% of the wealth... That leaves 30% of the wealth not taxed"


Let me see... I did not know that all wealth should be paid in taxes.

What about the next 25% or so, that pay the rest of the taxes?

And do you agree that those in the bottom 50% or so that pay NO taxes should get none of the wealth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 01:52 PM

Along with the Tea Party adherents and the other groups rising to challenge the direction being taken by Obama and the democratic Party are the Tenthers, supporters of the 10th Amendment which reserves, according to them, mostly military matters to the federal government and little else.

They feel that health care reform is unconstitutional, as are other federal efforts of the type.

Rick Perry of Texas is running a Tenth Amendment Town Hall.
Glenn Beck seems to be a supporter of this group.

Watch for more of these loosely organized groups to rise, and add to the Republican base in the next elections.

Digressions-
George Soros seems to be expecting more market turmoil, as he has doubled his holdings in gold (BBC News). Should we also be reducing our exposure in a volatile market?
(Of course the market sheep will buy gold, guaranteeing Soros a profit even if nothing happens in the market).

The takeover of smaller companies continues. One noted here in Canada is the purchase of California-based Zenith Nat. Insurance, a worker compensation Insurance company, by Fairfax Financial Holdings of Canada.

Royal Bank of Scotland, coming back strongly after its bailout by the UK government, has built a $500 million headquarters in Connecticut and rumors are that it plans purchase of one or more small financial institutions.
Stories in the Financial Times and NY Times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM

As more and more money moves into the upper crust, and stays there (because that's what money does), there will be less and less money to run the economy. Which will lead to a dearth of lending especially at lower levels (consumers, small businesses), and flat consumer spending, and stagnant unemployment. And money will continue to trickle up because money trickles up and has never in a million years trickled down. And as the uber-rich guffaw about the money they have, the middle-class-becoming-poor will get angrier and angrier. Whoops! What's that thing the French had back in 1789?

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:36 PM

It was called a guillotine!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:58 PM

Hope this wasn't already posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 10:09 PM

I will certainly acknowledge that I may be wrong in my prediction that Sarah will be able to use Tea Party fervor to forward her own ambitions. Lord knows I hope I'm wrong and that bitterness engendered by bloody primaries between Tea Party activists and Republicans will in fact derail Sarah.   We'll see if her support of McCain--which seems to be the main objection of self-styled "Tea Party" firebrands--hurts her enough so said malcontents do not support her in primaries--which I would submit are still a ways off.

Or whether, on the other hand, as sober observers (including both Q and I), in contrast to some other rather flighty and emotional posters, believe, "Tea Party" positions will be taken up by Republicans-- ( Sarah was after all just recently rapturously received at the Tea Party gathering)--and the Tea Party, which is in fact just a catch-all term for people angry at government for a whole host of reasons, will be co-opted. As has happened to 3rd parties in the US so often in the past---as already pointed out in this thread.

It seems to me that actually the only question is whether the co-opting happens before or after the 2012 election.   And that of course makes all the difference in the world.   At this point--keeping in mind it is still early-- a split in his opposition looks like the only way President Obama would have a decent chance at a second term--especially the way the midterms are shaping up.

And as I have already noted, if Sarah were to run in 2012, the Tea Party would not have to compromise on much at all--assuming they have such a thing as a program.

We would of course want the Tea Party to either stay home or field their own candidates against Sarah, starting with the IA caucus. It's a bit premature to say they will do this. But, at any rate, here's to a vicious, hardfought primary in AZ this summer, with as many Tea Party stalwarts (whatever that is) supporting Hayworth as possible.





Interesting that the poster with whom I had a disagreement has opted to take a 2-prong approach--first stupid vulgar attacks, then providing the links requested.

Thanks to her so much for the links.   I must confess a grievous fault--when someone responds with pointless vulgarity to a perfectly polite request for information backing up a statement, I do tend to consign that person to the nether reaches of humanity--and not pay much attention to what they say or do later.

I must learn to realize that--since we were earlier discussing matters Swiftian--not every such poster is a hopeless yahoo incapable of at least finding, if not articulating , an answer. ( Most, perhaps, but not all.) And further, I would like to make a modest proposal--not nearly so drastic as that of Dean Swift--that perhaps the links could be given before the obscenity next time.

Not that I would want to deprive her of the satisfaction she obviously derives from foul language and absurd accusations. Whatever floats her boat.

But perhaps next time, first the answer, then the vulgarity.   Then everybody would be happy.   Something for everyone, comedy tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 10:23 PM

I hope the Tea Party fields its own candidates. They're just stupid enough they might.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

Yes, Sarah seems to be walking the plank, supporting McCain in the primary. But the important issue here is whether the citizens of Arizona will, in fact, support J.D. Hayworth. If they will, one of the pro-big business advocates (those who want to bring American workers to their knees) will be gone, and the country can go about fixing the disasterous immigration policies that McCain has supported in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 12:52 AM

I don't really think Palen will be the selected candidate. She, Beck, Perry abd others are useful to firm up the Obama opposition, but there should be better candidates out there.
I look for a newcomer like the senator from Mass. but there is still plenty of time for others. He may be too liberal.

The Republicans have an excellent opportunity to get back in power in 2012; Sarah is good at stirring up a crowd, but I can't see her leading the party to victory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 12:57 AM

No 'vehicles' were fraudulently rated- the rates were those generally accepted although they had been riding the upward swing into oversold territory; this possibility was overlooked hence the sharp downward plunge.

I don't know whether the term "fraud" would be legally applicable, but because of the way they were being packaged, it was not possible for investors to know what they were getting. Many of the individual loans that had been repackaged into the "vehicles" were rated way below the rating of the "vehicle" in which they were bundled. There was some very creative bookkeeping that was allowed with those "vehicles".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:01 AM

I think the resident troll in this thread needs to read the thread again. Or get new glasses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:09 AM

Looks like he did. Still trolling, though, I see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 08:22 AM

Yes, Sarah seems to be walking the plank, supporting McCain in the primary.

Assuming facts not in evidence- that her supporters have even basic intelligence & reasoning skills.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

They must have basic intelligence and reasoning skills. Most of them are backing J.D. Hayworth, and he's on the side of the angels when it comes to immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:32 PM

Angels have a stance on immigration?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM

At least to the extent that you can believe in angels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:45 PM

You been talking with them, Riginslinger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 02:41 PM

Yeah, they sang -- "Swing low, sweet chariot, comin' for to takin' me home --"

                So I figured all them illegal aliens was leavin'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM

Back to digression-
"Because of the way they were packaged, .... It was not possible for investors to know what they were getting?"
The investors were AIG, Bear Stearns, banks in Scotland, etc.
These were the big bundles, gathered up as the bigger firms bought and repackaged, but they started with local loans from banks such as "Bank of Lolita" Left Branch Savings & Loan to Joe Blow wand on up.
Of course, the individual mortgages were not identified except by name and number of instrument, but certainly the banks and investment firms at the top should have known that they were riding a bubble that was approaching the critical stage.

Old history now, the banks and investment firms are stabilized and making money again. The federal government is getting its money back with interest.
Let's hope that some controls are put in place since it is doubtful that firms such as Bear Stearns had more than a cupful of brains among their many thousands of staff.
So far, the bailout is the greatest accomplishment of the Obama administration.



(I apologise to Bank of Lolita, which is a real bank in the old gold mining country of California. I just like the name).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

So far, the bailout is the greatest accomplishment of the Obama administration.

Sad because of course it wasn't his doing at all. It might be the answer, years from now, to "What's the one thing President George W Bush did right?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that a lot of people lost a lot of money because of this kind of misbehavior, though. It may be true that the bailout money is being paid back with interest, but that doesn't help all of the "little people" who were not made whole by the bailouts. We need better regulation of the financial markets to ensure that this kind of thing doesn't happen again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM

We had it once, but then we were afflicted with Ronald Reagan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

The 'little people' that lost in most cases got their money back, if they had savings in the market. Just a matter of waiting. Most of those I know who had stocks in their savings portfolio have pretty well got balanced again. Some who had some cash in the matress made money when good stocks dipped low; it was bargain time.

Of course those that took out mortgages that were beyond their means and were foreclosed lost, but that was not in "bundled" instruments but in direct mortgages.

Business losses- when people stop spending, losses are inevitable and marginals will fail or at the least jobs are cut. To me, these are the most damaging losses of all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:01 PM

People with money in funds that bought heavily into these funny paper things --- didn't come out so well.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM

A lot of people lost a lot of money because of the economic downturn. They have not gotten their money back and they will not get their money back. A lot of them lost their jobs, and because of that, they lost their homes. A lot of small businesses lost a lot of business, and their owners and employees lost money because of that. The damages to those who are not among the economic elite have been massive, and those people will not ever get their money back.

My father and step mother lost more than $100,000 when they invested in my brother's business. It was a solid business with a solid track record until the economic downturn, and it went out of business because the products it offered were not essential enough for people in a cash strapped economy to be able to justify spending money on. There are many millions of people who have experienced similar losses. These people will not ever get their money back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM

It probably ended up in the bonus check of some crook who worked for Goldman Sachs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:31 PM

Rigs is right...

We used to have sanity-in-lending... It was called regulation... Then along came Ronnie Raygun and pointed his raygun at any lae that the corporations didn't like... Ya' see, the corporation and Ronnie were convinced that they could best police their own little ballgames... You know, kinda like puttin' the fox in charge of the hen house...

30 years later we now see that that wasn't a real good idea... Well, I say we see but it isn't we at all... All of the Repubs and alot of thr Dems still don't see because they get them bigass checks in the mail from the corporations so they just look the other way but it's not like they couldn't see if they wanted to see... They just like that money too much...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:52 PM

"...get new glasses".   I'm deeply hurt that the poster doesn't find my modest proposal a good suggestion. I felt sure she would see the wisdom and fairness of it. After all, we'd get answers to questions and she could still indulge her penchant for foul language. Everybody wins!

Congratulations to her for emerging from the gutter. I wonder if she will be able to stay out of it.



Returning to the topic:

Q-- if you don't think Sarah stands a good chance of winning the Republican primaries, based on her views on guns and abortion--and probably her unique appeal to women--non-liberal women, of course-- , who do you think would be stronger on those issues--particularly abortion?   The "Religious Right" has been very strong in the Iowa caucus recently as well as in several Southern primaries--and there is such a thing as "Big Mo". Consider on the Democratic side what a boost Iowa gave to Obama. Even a loss soon after in New Hampshire could not derail him.

People may now tell polls they cannot take Sarah seriously.   But if she starts winning caucuses and primaries, I rather doubt that attitude would hold up.

And it seems likely that the "Tea Party" will never be a party, in the sense of Perot's party, TR's Bull Moose etc.    There is no standard-bearer---unless they accept Palin.    And they are such a collection of malcontents nursing such a range of real or imagined grievances that they will never settle on a program.

The main question appears to be whether they actually want to stop what they see as the Obama administration's power grab--in which case they will eventually have to support a Republican.   Or whether they just want to make noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:54 PM

piss piss piss piss piss


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:56 PM

(Note to self: stop feeding the troll.. )


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

Ah, Carol, glad to see you again. Hope you're happier now. I speak German and a bit of French and Spanish--and learning Russian. But I bow to your mastery of gutter speech.   

I considered trying to teach you civilized discourse. But I decided that instructing you in the importance of logic--and thinking before you hit "send" --was perhaps a higher priority. We can start that as soon as you're ready.

I'd say "you're so cute when you're angry" but you might think that was not a proper feminist attitude. So I won't say it.

By the way, do you have any of your own thoughts--as opposed to links--on whether Sarah will be deserted en masse by the Tea Party--and why? Since, believe it or not, that is actually more germane to the topic than your choice of language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:25 PM

The "why" is the crucial question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

Sarah finds herself in a tough spot in the Republican Senate primary in Arizona. Personally, she has to support McCain. I wouldn't be surprised if privately she would like to see Hayworth win. In either event, she'll be perfectly posed to support whoever wins in the general election against the Democrat.

            If the Republicans nominate her for president they'll lose most, if not all, of the independents. Surely they know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:32 AM

What are "independents"? we dont have any of those over here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM

No, Rig, you cannot assume that Sarah will lose the vast majority of the independents.

It depends on large part on the economy.   If there is not a vast improvement from the current situation, President Obama will have serious problems--from any Republican, including Sarah. While abortion and gun rights may win Sarah the Republican nomination, independents mostly don't care about these.   So they won't be put off.   The question will be just how disgusted and annoyed at President Obama they are.   Independents, like most voters, will vote their pocketbooks--unless there is a hot war going on.

The model Sarah would be looking to, as I've mentioned more than once, will be 1980. Also, the midterms are likely to bring a debacle for Democrats-cutting their majorities while still leaving them in nominal control of both Houses. So gridlock will probably get worse for the last two years, but any Republican can-and will--still be able to make the argument that it's a Democratic House, Democratic Senate, and Democratic President--and nothing is getting done.

Then President Obama will have to run on that record.

If people don't feel better about their own economic condition--regardless of what statistics are quoted at them--they will be in a mood in 2012 to take it out on somebody. The obvious fallguy is the President.

Added to which, with Sarah as the first likely female president, she will likely have an edge with (non-liberal) women. She's already saying some of the right things: along the lines of "I'm just trying to bring my children up right--in a civilized country.".   That will resonate.





Re: independents:   it's true in the UK you don't have them, by and large. Party identification and party discipline there are far more significant.   In the US it's a joke--more every year, it seems. And you don't have the primary system in the UK--while in the US independents can often even vote in primaries--so there's virtually no downside to being an independent--not a member of any party.

And numbers of independents have been increasing hugely in recent years in the US. In Massachusetts, for instance, I understand over 50% of the electorate is independent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM

akenaton, for the purpose of this discussion, I would be considered an "independent". In my state, we are called "unaffiliated", but it's the same thing. We are people who vote for candidates and not parties. We don't have any party affiliation and we vote for whomever we feel would be the best person to do the job for which we are voting. There is an "independent" party here in the US, but for the purpose of this discussion, they are not the ones who are being referenced when the term "independent" is used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 02:03 PM

Ron, I have an idea (perhaps just a hope) that a stronger contender than Sarah Palen will rise after the congressional elections, although she would receive votes of a large number of those angry with the slow recovery.
I agree that most of those loosely associated with the Tea Party and the "tenthers" will associate with the Republican Party; there is little likelihood that a third party will rise in the forseeable future.

I agree that the coming elections will see a strong Republican increase in congressional seats, obviously leading to deadlock on important issues, and Obama receiving much of the blame. He will be a one-term president.

As to who will lead the Republican Party in 2012-


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 02:13 PM

We already have deadlock on all of the important issues (and also all of the less important issues) because the Republicans are using the filibuster to require that the Democrats have a super-majority on all votes. And Obama is already getting blamed for it. You seem to be a bit out of the loop there, Q.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 02:20 PM

Perhaps I was not clear- I expect increased deadlock. Of course Obama is blamed, but some posters here seem to think things will turn around and he will be reprieved. He may not even run in 2012.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

The deadlock can't be increased. It's already 100%.

I really think it's way too early to make predictions about 2012. People were making similar predictions about Clinton, even right up to the end of his first term. Turns out their predictions were premature. He's only been president for one year. A lot can happen in the next three years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:03 PM

Interesting Carol, are many of the American population "affiliated" to a political part?

In the UK hardly anyone holds a "party card" so being "independent" politically is pretty meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:16 PM

I would say that the majority of people are registered to vote as a member of one party or another. But the independents (or unaffiliated) make up an important voting block. It's difficult, if not impossible, for someone to get elected president without a majority of independents along with their party-line vote. This is further complicated by the fact that independents don't fit into any particular political niches and their political views and philosophies are all over the political spectrum.

As an example, I have views that are more "conservative" than those of many Republicans, and also some that are more "liberal" than many Democrats. And I also have views that are not espoused by either party, and some that are commonly rejected by both parties. I don't think I'm all that unusual in this respect in relation to other people who self-identify as independents or unaffiliated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:36 PM

That's very interesting indeed Carol, but how can the electoral system be realistically described as "democratic" when you are registered to vote in a certain way.

Sorry didn't mean to highjack the thread:0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:49 PM

Well, I don't happen to think our system is democratic. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But they tell us it is so we'll keep playing the game. In my opinion, the whole election thing we do here in this country is bread and circuses to divert our attention away from the real issues, and to fool us into thinking we actually have any say in what goes on in this country.

But to answer your specific question, people don't have to vote for their party's candidate in the general election. When there is any restriction at all, it's in the primaries. Some states require that people vote for the party under which they are registered in primary elections (primaires choose the candidate that the parties will run in the general election). And some states do not have any such requirement. And in some states, like mine, for instance, even if the state has such a requirement, they'll still let unaffiliated people vote in the primaries as long as the state party organizations allow it. So in the 2008 primary, I was allowed to vote even though I'm not registered with either party, and even though in my state voters are required to only vote in their party's primary, because neither of the parties had any objection to my doing so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:52 PM

Here we go again.   Gridlock is "already 100%".   Not so.   The stimulus and other bills have been passed--over strong Republican opposition-- in President Obama's first term. If you need a list, I'm sure it can be arranged.   You may not like some of the bills. But they have been passed. Let's have some care in thinking here, if possible.

The main problem is that the electorate at large, as of now, sees no results from the legislation that has been passed--partly because some of it appears to be back-loaded.

Secondary problem is that for months now virtually all other issues have taken a back seat to trying to get a health care reform plan through. That appears to have been a conscious plan by the Administration.   But because Democrats have been unwilling to compromise--primarily with each other-- that plan is stalled. There may also yet be a health care reform bill--especially if liberals in the Democratic party are willing to compromise with non-liberals in the Democratic party.   And before we hear whining that such a bill would not be worth passing, we're back to the old "half a loaf vs no bread" situation.   You have to start somewhere.   Just remember what those stellar political analysts, the Stones, said:   "You can't always get what you want...."

However, if, as expected, there is a Democratic debacle in the fall--but the Democrats retain nominal control of both chambers-- it will take very few conservative Democrats' votes to stymie virtually all of President Obama's agenda.   And that's the way we are now headed.

And that would mean real gridlock--on virtually all issues.   Which is not what we have now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:54 PM

Seems very strange, but has solved some points which have been puzzling me....Thank you for being so patient with me Carol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:55 PM

I would also mention that for a lot of people, the purpose in registering and/or self-identifying as a member of one party or another really has more to do with identity politics than it has with the electoral process. We here in this country like to approach politics and governance as if they were a team sport. We like to feel like we belong to a group and to compete with, demonize, and feel superior to the members of the other group(s). That's a big part of the reason we're so easy to manipulate by the fat cats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

Mr Troll, I don't know if you've noticed or not, but the Democrats no longer have a filibuster-proof majority. (Not that it was ever actually filibuster-proof), but it is now impossible to get anything passed without at least one Republican vote if the Republicans decide to filibuster (which they are consistently doing). Please try to keep up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM

Hmm...I understand now, why you feel it will be so difficult to achieve any sort of unity.

But folks do still retain a belief in good over evil....something which we lost long ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

Yes, but a lot of the people here believe in good over evil in the same way that people did during the times of the witch hunts. Which means that from their perspective, no evil deed is considered unacceptable if it is committed by people who are on the side of "good". Kind of a circular way of looking at things, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:10 PM

If you don't understand, Mrs. BS Banshee--has a nice ring, that, and just as valid as "Troll" if not more so-- that you have, yet again, oversimplified the situation--with a bit of your patented defeatism thrown in--,then I suspect I have more productive things to do at this point than to try to instruct you in thinking a bit more carefully.

But congratulations for staying out of the gutter, though you may feel out of your habitat.

I wonder if you will ever understand that there is in fact a difference between a troll and somebody who disagrees with you.

Ah well, we can hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:13 PM

What important issues have the Democrats been able to pass legislation on since Brown was elected?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:13 PM

And by the way, piss off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:58 PM

And by the way, I only need to point to the fact that we don't currently have a health care reform bill passed and signed to support my contention that the Democratic majority is meaningless. There is absolutely nothing preventing the Democrats from passing a health care bill with a public option, right now, if they want to do it. Nothing whatever. All of the polls are showing that the majority of voters want a public option, the House and Senate can pass the Senate bill with the addition of the public option through reconciliation, and there are enough votes in the House to support its passage. But they haven't done it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

"filibuster-proof majority".   Congratulations on latching onto one of the most meaningless terms ever invented by a desperate columnist.

As I pointed out back in Nov 2008 after the election when people were agonizing over whether the Democrats would get 60 Senate seats or not. I pointed out that even 60 seats did not mean a given agenda would be passed.   Senators respond to their constituents--and votes are by issue, not by party discipline.

The illustrious poster must be imagining she lives in the UK, where party discipline does exist.

But I must away.   Life has more to offer than Mudcat at this point.

Sleep well.   See you tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:17 PM

Tea Party Bible Times for Mom and Me for sale by Amazon.
Oops! wrong tea party. (Or is it?) Perhaps Tea Time for the Traditionally Built - Nooooo.

But listed below are a few of the new books that reflect the flavor of the times.

-Taxpayers' Tea Party: A Manual for Reclaiming Out Country by Sharon Cooper.
-How Did Tea and Taxes Spark a Revolution Linda Gondolish.
-A New American Tea Party: The Counter Revolution Against Bailouts, Handouts, Reckless Spending and More Taxes Michelle Malkin and John O'Hara.
-That's No Angry Mob, That's My Mom: Team Obama's Assault on Tea-Party, Talk-Radio Americans, Michael Graham.
-Tea Party Revival: The Conscience of a Conservative Reborn: The Tea Party revolt .... Dr. B. Leland Baker.
Tenthers untethered-
When All Else fails: Nullification and State Resistance to Federal Tyranny
The Left vs. 'The Tenthers': On Gettiing States' Rights Wrong J. Eboch.

Yes, indeedy; the natives are restless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM

As I pointed out back in Nov 2008 after the election when people were agonizing over whether the Democrats would get 60 Senate seats or not. I pointed out that even 60 seats did not mean a given agenda would be passed.   Senators respond to their constituents--and votes are by issue, not by party discipline.

All of which exactly proves my point that the Democratic majority is meaningless, Mr. troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

"Against handouts" like Medicare?

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

Probably!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 06:28 PM

No, the natives are MINDLESS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:51 PM

Conservative Political Action Committee (CPAC) meeting. Names mentioned, or otherwise suggested for 2012 Republican presidential ticket.
Ron Paul, Texas libertarian, Mitt Romney, Tim Pawlenty (MN), Sarah Palen.
A straw vote put Paul first, but these votes are nonsense.

Other possibles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:53 PM

"All of which exactly proves my point that the Democratic majority is meaningless..."

               One has to wonder if Obama had been able to seat Tom Daschle in the cabinet if things would have turned out differently. He certainly knew the workings of the Senate--seemingly better than the people who the administration had working on that part--and he seems to have a good understanding about the problems relating to healthcare.

                      If only he'd paid his taxes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 11:02 PM

Q, they interviewed Eric Ericson, editor of redstate.com (a conservative blog), on NPR today and he said Mitch Daniels, the current governor of Indiana, was his top pick for prez. No way of knowing how many people share that view but he apparently has some pull in the movement (Eric, not Mitch).

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:13 AM

Yes, it's the good old "60-vote filibuster-proof majority". Look, it should be obvious to even the most casual observer of the US political scene--though evidently not to the brilliant poster--that you cannot rely on the vote of Sen. Lieberman--for anything. It should also be evident that it's not reasonable to expect Sen. Tester or Sen. Nelson--among others-- to march in lockstep with Sen. Franken.

So the question arises why the poster in question even brought up the "filibuster-proof majority".

"all the polls" Wrong. More oversimplification. Some do, some don't.

"reconciliation".    Perhaps the poster is unaware that this, otherwise known as the "nuclear option" by some, does not at this point appear to have enough Democratic support. Especially by Democrats in conservative districts who would actually like to be re-elected. Nor is that situation likely to change.   And even if reconciliation does occur, the "public option" will not be part of any bill this year.

She'll have the "public option" put back in. Right.   The question arises:   in what universe is she living?    It does not appear to be the real world, where the "public option" is dead for the foreseeable future--not just this year. Partly since the Democrats--with her enthusiastic backing no doubt--refused point-blank to include Sen Snowe's "trigger".   Which was the only way to get a Republican vote.

But it seems rather clear, to say the least, that as a proud charter member of the "ain't it awful" brigade,   she would far rather complain long and loud about the unfairness of it all than actually accomplish anything.

Even compromise with her fellow Democrats, much less any Republicans, is out of the question.

In fact her attitude is a sterling example of exactly why the Democrats, with a "Democratic House, Democratic Senate, and Democratic President" have not managed to get any health care bill through Congress.

And it's also painfully clear that she has learned precisely nothing from this experience.

Sorry, compromise will be necessary.    It's called "getting something done". As I've noted earlier, not a major concern of many here below the line--to say the least.





It's also clear what the solution to the impasse would be. And I've also noted this before. The House must pass the Senate bill exactly as is.   That means no "public option" this time.   Liberal House members must line up with their more moderate and conservative members .   Then the votes would be there in the House--even without Republican support--to pass the Senate bill.   "Filibustering" would not even enter the picture. A health care reform bill would pass. And the Democrats could go on to other things--and return later to health care if possible.

But unfortunately that appears unlikely--since it would probably require the gentle lady poster--and others of her ilk--to try to pressure their House members to do this.   And that appears to be a possibility the day after hell freezes over.

Yes, I am aware the poster may have a Republican Congressman.   But her attitude is replicated many times over in many liberal districts.   And it's those Members who have to recognize reality--and probably be reminded of it by their constituents. As I have in fact done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:17 AM

"all the polls..."    Wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:26 AM

What appears likely now is that President Obama will invite the Republicans to a "health care summit".   Nothing will come of this.   Then the President will be able to say: " I tried to get a bill with Republican support."--which is what conservative and moderate Democrats need to hear to have a chance for re-election.   So then there will be enough Democratic votes for "reconciliation".   But the "public option" will not be part of the bill that results. Nor will it be put back in to the bill by any Congressional maneuvering.

And the poster in question will have to accept this.   

And, just perhaps, she will have learned something about the necessity of compromise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

"into the bill"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM

I see the resident troll is trying to have it both ways. Either they can get something done or they can't. Maybe compromise is necessary. No problem. If their majority means anything, they'll make whatever compromises they need to to get something meaningful passed. But they haven't done that. They're still sitting on it and not doing anything at all. The Democratic majority is meaningless if they can't get past this hurdle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:57 PM

Mitch McConnell today asked (again) that the 'health' bill be withdrawn and senators work out acceptable legislation.
That would be the logical way to get an acceptable bill, but an unlikely event.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

Simple Seeker's just serially spouting off to impress himself again, Carol- pay it no mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:58 PM

The adv. at the bottom of this thread, at the moment, is Bruce Bexley,The Tea Party Movement, and M. Butwin, Protest!, available at amazon.com. Anyone read them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 03:24 PM

Digression:
Yep, my pensions come from Exxon-Mobil. Long may it succeed!

Financial Times Global 500

1st Quarter 2009
Exxon Mobil
PetroChina
Walmart
Industrial and Commerce Bank China

2nd Quarter 2009
PetroChina
Exxon Mobil
Industrial and Commercial Bank of China
Microsoft

Successful companies globally providing income and jobs to millions, directly and indirectly.

In Forbes (Chinese rankings lower):
General Electric
Royal Dutch Shell
Toyota
ExxonMobil
BP
HSBC Holdings
AT&T
Walmart
Banco Santander
Chevron

In holdings, Barclays, Paribas and Deutsche banks each c. 2.9 trillion.
In assets, however, ExxonMobil with 335 billion is largest; Wal-mart $193 billion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

I don't think many people would have a problem with you being able to continue to collect your pension, Q. As for supporting the success of Exxon-Mobile, I guess there's nothing wrong with that as long as their success doesn't come at the expense of our freedoms and our democracy. But when the corporate sector controls the government, that's called 'fascism', and I, for one, am against it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

The government could use a few good business executives at the top.
Discipline in government does not have to mean curtailment of freedoms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:35 PM

"whatever compromises are necessary".   Well, since Democrats like the good poster did not accept the Olympia Snowe "trigger", the main compromise will be:   no "public option" this year-- or next (after the midterms).

Now can the poster accept this or not?   Yes or no.

It would be fascinating for her to tell us exactly how she envisions the "public option" will be put back into any health care bill this year--and passed.   Since she assures us the majority of the US electorate now support it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:00 PM

It is of course heartening to hear the good poster speak of "compromise"--which is what I have been hammering at for weeks, if not longer. Congratulations to her for that.   It's a start.

Now we'll see if she actually knows what "compromise" means.

She might want to start by admitting that it's not the "evil Republicans" who are totally to blame for the health care impasse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:19 PM

By the way, Greg, all your fans are waiting breathlessly for your wonderful contribution to this thread.

So far, the phrase "puerile resentment" seems amazingly apt.

But I'm sure you have excellent ideas to share with us.   We're waiting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:22 PM

Please do try to keep up, Mr. troll. ONCE AGAIN, please show me where I have said I don't support the passage of the Senate bill without a public option if they can't pass it with a public option. ONCE AGAIN, put up or shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:26 PM

And while you're at it, now go and find the dozens of posts I've made over the last several weeks in which I have ADVOCATED for the passage of the Senate bill, even if it doesn't contain the public option, if they can't pass one with a public option. And go find all of the attacks that have been leveled at me for adopting such a stance.

Ignorance of the facts is no excuse. Even if ignorance is your default mode. Put up or shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:38 PM

You can start here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:42 PM

However, the point remains - they have not passed the Senate bill, either with or without the public option. If they can't do this, their majority is meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:47 PM

Oh, yeah, one more thing. Please show me where I have said that the "evil Republicans" are totally to blame for the health care impasse.

If you can't produce any posts from me that contain any of the kinds of things you are accusing me of, we will know that you are just making this shit up as you go along (in other words, LYING), and for one reason and one reason only - to feed your insatiable appetite for trolling and making personal attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

CPAC did not give the Palin brand of tea much notice. It was Ron Paul who won their straw poll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM

Yes, Ron Paul won, but as I pointed out, these polls are meaningless at this time.
There may be a new name or two at the end of the year after congressional elections, and the run for 2012 begins.

Something on the news yesterday about the Dems wanting to discuss options with the Republicans, but they may not listen since the Dems shot their wad pushing the 60 votes in their face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:10 PM

And a hell of a lot of good it's done them.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:10 PM

Something on the news yesterday about the Dems wanting to discuss options with the Republicans, but they may not listen since the Dems shot their wad pushing the 60 votes in their face.

That's just posturing. If the Democrats had pushed the 60 votes in the face of the Republicans, we would have a bill already passed and signed by now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:27 PM

"meaningless majority".    Wrong again. The good lady's track record is turning out to be a rather good negative indicator.

No health care bill has been passed by Congress. However, other bills have been passed in this Congress, as I have pointed out.

As a sage likes to say:   "Please try to keep up."

And we're still waiting patiently for her to tell us just how the public option is to be put back into the health care bill. Especially since the latest proposal, by the President, does not include it.

Her capacity for self-delusion is quite remarkable.





It does seem that we have made some progress however.   The dear lady appears to have realized that gutter language--though she seems to derive great enjoyment from it--isn't really necessary to have a political discussion.

Except possibly in her circles, where it might be just the normal way to communicate--who knows how she lives?

Admittedly it does not to have yet seeped into her giant brain that there is in fact a difference between a troll and a person who politely asks her to back up a statement.

Except again, possibly in her circles.

I considered continuing with "Mrs. B. S. Banshee"--it certainly does have a nice ring, and admirably captures her attitude at certain points. But I've decided not to call her "Mrs. B.S. Banshee". while keeping "Mrs. B S. Banshee" on reserve should it be needed.

And of course that also means I won't be able to use "termagant" in this context, since inflammatory language is to be shunned.   This is a particularly bitter pill, since I've waited years to use "termagant" in conversation--and it fits so perfectly.


Progress has also been made, it appears, in that she seems to realize that her mention of "filibuster-proof majority" was totally pointless--since this beast has not been sighted since long before 2008.

She has even grudgingly uttered the dread word "compromise".   "Maybe compromise is necessary". ( Now there's a ringing endorsement of compromise.)

No "maybe". It is in fact necessary--and is virtually always necessary in politics, with very few exceptions. Maybe she will eventually even learn this lesson.

In fact, the poster seems every sign of being on the road to becoming a reasonable person. Even the yapping of her "why don't you and him fight?" lapdog Greg does not seem to have stopped these favorable developments.

I'm proud of her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:29 PM

Oh, I spoke too soon. She's slipped back into the gutter.    It must indeed be her home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:40 PM

I also note with interest that I appear to be the only poster so far who not only has said exactly what the Democrats should have done, but also predicts what they will do now. President Obama is proving a very good politician.   The health care "summit" will show all parties that the Republican leadership has no productive ideas on health care--aside from Sen Snowe's rejected idea.

The failure of the summit will give Democrats in moderate or conservative districts cover to vote for "reconciliation". But still no public option. Liberals have squandered the only chance for even a back-door public option--the fear of the WSJ editorial page--by rejecting Sen Snowe's trigger.

Certainly good that our gentle lady poster recognizes reality to the extent that she will accept this lack of a public option--it's essential that some health care reform bill be passed--soon.   So Congress can get on to a more direct assault on the recession--and perhaps mitigate the otherwise likely Democratic bloodbath in the fall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 11:02 PM

Still waiting Mr troll. Put up or shut up.


Public option

You need to start doing your own research instead of making other people do all of your work for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 11:05 PM

By the way, I'm also still waiting for you to answer my question about how many bills have passed since Brown was elected.

Still waiting...


Still... waiting...

...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:21 AM

Well, didn't Brown vote for the jobs bill, with a handfull of other Republicans? Of course, I think it still has to go through the House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:00 AM

A glimmer of hope resides in 23 senators backing a pulbic option and 5 Republicans backing the jobs recovery bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:49 AM

I appear to be the only poster ... [who] predicts what they will do...

WHOA! Born with a caul, I suppose. Our own NostraDavies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:01 PM

As you said, Riginslinger, the jobs bill has not actually been passed into law yet.

Since the troll isn't going to answer that question, I will. Two bills have been passed into law since Brown was elected. Both of them are bills that are for the purpose of helping Haiti.   No bills have so far been passed since Brown was elected that have any effect on the lives of the voters in the US (unless they have family in Haiti, perhaps). And since the troll made the comment along the lines of "if the Democratic majority means anything" (my response to which he has been following me around the Mudcat and serially abusing me for making) after Brown was elected, and since the comment pertained to the present tense, my response that it does not, also logically pertains to the present tense. Which means that now in the period after Brown was elected, the Democratic majority appears to not mean much of anything at all. Congress is deadlocked.

If they somehow manage to pass any legislation into law that actually has any real impact on the lives of the voters here in the US, then I will revise my thinking on this - if it's not just a regurgitation of the Bush era policies. But not until then. But of course, he doesn't really care what I think about anything. He's just looking for excuses to abuse people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:58 AM

One of the really big problems is some Republicans have seized on the concept that if they can prevent health care from passing, they can run Obama out of town on the failure of this one issue. That being the case, they'll do anything to defeat it without regard for the merits or the needs of the American public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:19 PM

So it appears the dear lady and her yapping lapdog both need some instruction in elementary political science.

Surprising--I thought they were intelligent, well-read people. Perhaps I was wrong on that.

The dear lady should read her own link.   Especially "risky gambit". And note the people in favor of using reconciliation for the public option. Exactly how many are new supporters of the "public option"?

I've done a bit of research on the "polls" which "all support" the public option.   Now one is from the "Progressive Change Campaign Committee". Certainly a sterling objective group.

And another is the New York Times. But take some time to read the actual report on the "poll".   "In favor" of the public option, a majority. However, in the words of my favorite political analyst, Shania Twain:   "That don't impress me much". It's somewhat amazing I have to stoop to explain the situation to political cliches.   But perhaps the two posters mentioned above have a hard time with anything else.

Try: " The devil is in the details".

For a poll to be credible we will need:

1)   Date
2) Who sponsored it
3) Exact wording
4) Does it deal with the financing of the "public option"?. Sure, in isolation, I'm sure many would like to have the option of government-sponsored health care. But when you talk about deficits--which have been predicted by the CBO with the Democratic health plan reform basically forever--you play into the hands of Palin--remember her--the actual topic of the thread--and her cronies.

The usual line is something along the lines of: "We are burying our grandchildren under a mountain of debt".   Of course, added to the usual lines about "death panels" and "government bureaucrats substituting their judgment for that of your doctor"

The NYT poll appears to have mentioned nothing about financing.   This is a problem, to say the least.



And then we have the dear lady's assertion:   20 Feb 2010 4:58 PM:   "There is absolutely nothing preventing the Democrats from passing a health care bill with a public option".

A sublimely meaningless statement:

1)   "the Democrats".   I refer her to Will Rogers.

2)    I also refer her to the "big tent" concept.   And if she does not know what that is, I will be only too happy to explain. Feel free to ask.

3)   Don't forget the above "Devil".


But congratulations to you both for staying out of the gutter--for one post. Let's see how long you can keep it up.    Good work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:22 PM

"remember her?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Oh, perhaps they've been out of the gutter for more than one post. And actually, they should feel free to slip back into the gutter if it helps them feel more at ease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 01:02 PM

Time to change your oil, Ron.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 02:49 PM

Ron does give new meaning to the term "gobshite", doesn't he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:16 AM

Newsweek Poll: Americans Still Favor Public Option

Newsweek Poll
Obama, Health Care & the GOP
Princeton Survey Research Associates International

Final Topline Results
(2/19/10)


N = 1,009 adults, 18+
Margins of error: plus or minus 3.6
Interviewing dates: 2/17-18/10


6.        Now I'm going to read you some SPECIFIC proposals people have made to change the health care system. As I read each one, please tell me if you personally favor or oppose this change. Here's the (first/next) proposal.... (INSERT ITEM-READ AND RANDOMIZE)

READ AS NECESSARY: Do you favor or oppose this proposal (to change the health care system)? ALWAYS ASK ITEMS a-c AS A GROUP, IN ORDER:

e. Creating a government-administered public health insurance option to compete with private plans


Favor - 50        Oppose - 42      Dk - 8


51% Of Self-Identified Republicans In Swing Districts Favor A Public Option

Freshman Democrats Face trouble in 2010 if congress doesn't pass a public option

List of 51 Senate Democrats Who Support a Public Option


I see you're still making everyone else do all of your work for you, troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:18 AM

Even his delusions of grandeur have delusions of grandeur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,John
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:12 AM

I'm sure glad to read that the country favors a health care bill, 'cause it sort of looked for a while there that the Democrats thought that passing that bill might lead to a complete electoral disaster.

I'll sleep easier knowing that Pelosi, Reid and the President knew what they were doing all along and have robust support from their grateful nation. The Democrats have nothing to fear if they just stay the course.

I'm sure that the Republicans, particularly Palin, are quaking in their boots now that Newsweek has uncovered their falseness in blocking this popular legislation. The nation was never on the side of the Republicans; Virginia, New Jersey and Massachusetts elections are anomalies; and the few house Democrats who were dragging their feet will fall into line real soon.

We can all thank Newsweek for their insightful poll. We certainly don't need to heed the foolish and misleading statements of the people who don't like such popular legislation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:49 AM

John, most of the polls that have been taken in the past six months or more show that the majority of people support a health care reform bill that includes a public option, and that a much smaller number of people support the Senate bill without the public option.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:52 AM

By the way, the Massachusetts election was not in any way a referendum on health care reform. The people of Massachusetts already have universal health care in that state, and the guy they voted for, Brown, voted FOR that legislation when he was in the state legislature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 10:24 AM

No, the Massachusetts election was all about immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

Sarah Palin spoke to an audience of 1200 or more (hall capacity) last night, attendees paying $200 for the privilege.
Many more tickets could have been sold, but there were a number of donations by those unable to attend.
Quite a success for a speech made outside of the U. S., but Calgary is mostly conservative in its views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 02:06 PM

How could many more tickets have been sold if the audience was already at hall capacity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

UK papers are full of how Miss Sarah is wiping the floor with Mr Romney.
They also insinuate that the Dems are praying Mrs Palin gets the Pub nomination, saying that "Palin is Obama's preferred option"

That would IMO, be a very serious mistake.
"The times they are a changin'"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 08:51 PM

Anyone who wanted to buy a ticket as a donation and not attend was allowed to do so.

Calgary, as a business center in western Canada, has many thousands of Americans resident in the city. The Calgary census counts 22,000 American residents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 08:53 PM

Where do the donations go? For what or whom is she raising money?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: GUEST,John
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

Akenaton gets the point that I hope that everyone gets. Sarah Palin is not much of a risk as a Presidential candidate several years from now.

She has been the chief voice of opposition to the policies of the current administration, opposition that has fought a popular (before Palin and others started chipping away) President to a virtual standstill.

Carol is still focused on whether she used to belong to a church that has some vague connection to some extreme outfit that is vaguely repugnant to people like her. Who cares? Why is this about Palin?

Palin is getting good money for speaking to big crowds with great news coverage right now. She isn't going to stop. She is not a fool to be ignored. She isn't losing her fight; she is winning.

She is plenty bright, has good character, has a good record of sound administration of a little state government, is not particularly extreme, and is very appealing to our political opponents. The best we seem to be able to do is try to land telling slurs about the church she used to go to, or where she writes her interview reminders.

If we don't get serious, we are going to be toasted by someone whose only tools are a little charm and national audience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:32 PM

I don't see Palin as a standard bearer in 2012, but her support might make or break a candidate when the conventions roll around. She may fit a No. 2 spot again.

It is too early to start anointing the one, the only, the true Republican standard bearer at this time.
Romney will be stronger than he was in the last election, and he has the billions required. He is spending a lot of time on the TV.
That young one from Massachusetts is rising fast and is on the speaking trail as well. There is time for another 'star' to arise.

Whoever it is will likely be the next president.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:42 PM

The religious backing she receives is important, John, and pretending otherwise is folly, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:34 PM

I agree that religion is important among her supporters. One must also recognise that in a small puddle such as her corner of Alaska, membership in the church that is popular locally is desirable.
As Palin enters a larger stage, she undoubtedly will broaden her stance.

Remember that Obama had to distance himself from the views of the pastor of a church he attended, and modify his stance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM

Q, I'm not talking about her being religious or having supporters who are religious. I'm talking about a religious movement with a political agenda that has been grooming her for political office. Those are two very different things. The first I have no problem with. The second is, in my opinion, very dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:53 PM

I should mention that the agenda of this movement is the establishment of a theocracy in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:39 AM

"I'm not talking about her being religious or having supporters who are religious. I'm talking about a religious movement with a political agenda that has been grooming her for political office. Those are two very different things. The first I have no problem with. The second is, in my opinion, very dangerous"

Like Obama was not carefully groomed for a political agenda??????


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:17 AM

He certainly wasn't groomed for a political agenda by a religious group that wants to establish a theocracy in the US to replace our democratic form of government. Which is the problem I have with Palin. Because that's what she's being groomed for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:33 AM

He was groomed to establish a more sinister take over than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:35 AM

Which take over would that be, Riginslinger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:36 PM

The theocratic push seems to be coming mostly from Texas. I don't see Palin as central to it although she has espoused some of its ideas.

The idea is to enshrine the idea of the U. S. as a 'Christian' nation in the Constitution and the law.

Obama groomed for a sinister takeover? Well, possibly to aid a Daly takeover nationally, but we have had other political machines come and go. Nothing sinister, just business as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 04:18 PM

You may not have seen it, Q, but she's been getting help in her rise to power from members of that movement for years. Personally, I don't think she would have gotten as far as she has without their assistance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 04:20 PM

"Which take over would that be, Riginslinger?"


             The George Soros, David Axelrod, Rahm Emanuel take over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:50 PM

I don't see how what Obama's doing is any more sinister. One is secular corporatocracy, and the other is theocratic corporatocracy. I think, if I have to choose between the two (and apparently, I do), I definitely choose the secular corporatocracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:53 PM

Sarah's a big fan of socialized health care (just not for those in the US who really need it)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM

She sure finds unique ways to stay in the news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM

LOL Yeah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:41 PM

Sarah's speech in Calgary gave Albertans pretty much what they wanted to hear. She praised the energy policy and the development of Canadian petroleum resources, and called for small government with low expenditures, low taxes and free markets.

"What she really pushed at the BMO Centre (Bank of Montreal Building auditorium) was a message of energy development, competition, smaller government- and her doubts that climate change science was a settled thing.
"We've got to become more energy independent," she said.
"Her concern, Palin said, is waiting around for unfriendly regimes to develop their resources. Relying on those nations puts the United States in a less safe and less prosperous position, Palin said.
......
"Lauding Canada's approach to the environment, Palin said this country has sought to balance environmental progress with economic concerns."

She criticized the mainstream media. She mentioned the false reporting of her statements, and the press taking remarks in parody or comedy routines as her own- one she mentioned was the one which credited her with saying she could look out her window and see Russia- this one was from a comedy routine and was not said by her.

"Her low tax, small government assertions went down well with a Calgary audience that appeared sympathetic to her vision.
"The massive debt the United States has incurred is "immoral," Palin said, as it will be left for today's children to eventually pick up the bill.
"In the audience were both Calgary business leaders and politicians."
.............. Tory Lee Richardson, the Calgary Centre MP (member of Parliament) said "Palin drew an audience that was receptive to her message.
"I thought it was impressive," he said.
Another in the audience was Gary Holden, CEO of ENMAX (supplier of gas to Calgary, etc.). "He said Palin was someone of high principle whose conservative views went down well here."
Holden also remarked on her championing of the Alaska pipeline, which he views as competition to Alberta.

Richard Cuthbertson, Calgary Herald article, March 7, 2010.

(Palin did not mention religion in her talk)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM

Sounds like she would be a perfect fit for Alberta. Please accept her as our gift.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:40 PM

I don't think conservative middle America is ready to give her up.
I don't see her as top candidate in 2012, but she is garnering support from the business community as well as small town and rural America.

Your gift? Our current premier in Alberta is even more conservative- she is about on a par with the Prime Minister of Canada.
In Canadian politics, she would be one in the crowd (prettier, though).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin sips tea tonight
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:55 PM

You couldn't use the eye candy during those long winters?


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