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EFDSS cock-up

GUEST,The Shambles 27 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM
greg stephens 27 Jan 10 - 04:55 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 10 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Ed 27 Jan 10 - 05:07 PM
Noreen 27 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Ed 27 Jan 10 - 05:27 PM
Joe Offer 27 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM
Folkiedave 27 Jan 10 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 27 Jan 10 - 05:39 PM
treewind 27 Jan 10 - 05:39 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Jan 10 - 05:42 PM
Paul Reade 27 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM
Joe Offer 27 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM
The Borchester Echo 27 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM
Dave MacKenzie 27 Jan 10 - 06:00 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 27 Jan 10 - 06:03 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 27 Jan 10 - 06:17 PM
Zany Mouse 27 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM
The Borchester Echo 27 Jan 10 - 06:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 27 Jan 10 - 06:50 PM
Andy Jackson 27 Jan 10 - 07:04 PM
RTim 27 Jan 10 - 07:13 PM
Charlie Baum 27 Jan 10 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,999 27 Jan 10 - 09:26 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Jan 10 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,matt milton 28 Jan 10 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 28 Jan 10 - 05:07 AM
bubblyrat 28 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM
Folkiedave 28 Jan 10 - 05:23 AM
Folkiedave 28 Jan 10 - 05:28 AM
Bryn Pugh 28 Jan 10 - 05:41 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Jan 10 - 06:37 AM
theleveller 28 Jan 10 - 06:50 AM
The Borchester Echo 28 Jan 10 - 06:53 AM
The Borchester Echo 28 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM
Young Buchan 28 Jan 10 - 07:16 AM
Mo the caller 28 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM
johnadams 28 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM
The Borchester Echo 28 Jan 10 - 08:20 AM
Folkiedave 28 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 28 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM
GUEST 28 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM
johnadams 28 Jan 10 - 11:51 AM
Folkiedave 28 Jan 10 - 12:06 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 28 Jan 10 - 12:14 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 28 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM
Jack Blandiver 28 Jan 10 - 12:25 PM
Folkiedave 28 Jan 10 - 12:58 PM
The Borchester Echo 28 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 28 Jan 10 - 01:21 PM
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Subject: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM

Blown it! How £27,000 of Lotto cash was paid out for a musical sculpture that no one wants

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246372/Blown--How-27-000-Lotto-cash-paid-musical-sculpture-wants.html


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Subject: RE: The Shambles
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:55 PM

Looks briulliant. What we need is a sound clip, I'll bet it sounds great. I hope someone finds somewhere nice to put it. Unfortunately, it's a bit big for my sitting-room.


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Subject: RE: The Shambles
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:03 PM

It's great...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQZcKylYY0&feature=related


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Subject: RE: The Shambles
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:07 PM

Fantastic!

a musical sculpture that no one wants

is clearly quite wrong


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Subject: RE: The Shambles
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM

I think it's wonderful!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:27 PM

I don't know who renamed the thread, but some subtly may have been in order...


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

Since "EFDSS cock-up" was the title of the initial message, I'm guessing that's what was intended as the thread title. If that's wrong, Roger, please contact me by e-mail. I'd prefer something like "EFDSS Cock-up on musical sculpture," because the idea is to have specificity in thread titles.

-Joe Offer-
joe@mudcat.org


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:37 PM

I'd like it but Sheffield is a bit of a centre of the scrap metal industry.

Kelham Island Museum might take it.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:39 PM

It is certainly a matter of opinion, if not fact, that the cock up over this musical sculpture does not lie with the EFDSS, so even Joe's suggested alternative thread title would be misleading.
Derek Schofield


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: treewind
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:39 PM

It has emerged that the EFDSS didn't actually pay for this. The money for it was the prize for some competition, nothing to do with the EFDSS, but the winning entry was planned to go in the garden of Cecil Sharp House.

It does reflect badly on the EFDSS to be associated coincidentally with this, but it wasn't their fault, and frankly they would never spend that much money on something so unnecessary.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:42 PM

Not had the opportunity to listen yet but the visual effect is stunning. Can they get it inside the entrance hall or the hall itself even?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Paul Reade
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM

If the Daily Mail didn't like it, then it must be OK!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM

£27,000 of Lotto cash paid out for musical sculpture would be better yet, since it tells what happened without adding commentary. Maybe it's better to leave the title commentary to the Murdoch publications. But hey, I kinda like the sculpture.

-Joe Offer-
joe@mudcat.org


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM

It would be good in the entrance hall where once there was something as useful as a shop. The corporate-style reception desk that's there now is a waste of space.
I find it a really beautiful instrument which sounds fantastic when used to accompany Chris Wood's singing.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:00 PM

This report appeared in the Daily Mail. Did it really happen?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:03 PM

I think it sounds good - have a listen to the Long And Winding Road in the associated clips list of the clip that Carol linked above, which I think shows the sound off a bit better.

If you read the article, the sculptor clearly admits he got carried away and departed from the original brief (which was for it to go in the garden outside CSH) and made something too flimsy for the location and too potentially attractive to thieves; EFDSS had no responsibility for the final creation.

I still think it would be great if somewhere could be found for it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:17 PM

So..erm...they spent £55.000 on 'improving the gardens'?????????

If they did, where did the money come from, and WHAT did they improve for that kind of money?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM

I think it is magnificent, even though it's not suitable for Camden Town.

Kelham Island Museum or the Elsecar Heritage Centre would be a better venue for it I think.

Blessings
Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:36 PM

The grant was to provide wheelchair access to the main floor and for disabled loos (which has been done), not just to tart up the garden. They've even painted the cloakrooms, obliterating graffiti that had been there since 1970.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:50 PM

Well, that makes more sense.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:04 PM

Well apart from anything else it's not a pretty noise is it. What a shame that what have been a wonderful musical experience got Artsy Fartsied about with and turned into a travesty of dubious taste!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: RTim
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:13 PM

I think it sounds great judging by the Mad John clip, and in my view almost anything Chris Wood is involved in is OK by my book.
However, the title of the thread does not really do EFDSS any favours!
It was NOT their fault, if fault needs to be claimed.

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:18 PM

The sculpture reminds me very much of the band organ behind the Denzel carousel at Glen Echo Park in Glen Echo, Md. At least that musical instrument is protected from the weather (not to mention vandals). Come to the Folklore Society of Greater Washington's Washington Folk Festival the weekend after Memorial Day (generally the first weekend in June) and hear the band organ, which sonically dominates a certain portion of the festival grounds. The volunteer restoration staff of the carousel at Glen Echo has even created updated punch tapes to run their historic band organ--it even plays Lennon-McCartney Beatles tunes as well as light classical, classic popular songs, and band works.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 09:26 PM

Just try getting THAT through security at an airport.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:40 AM

obliterating graffiti that had been there since 1970

Sounds like real (folk) art to me, Diane - better that that the present - er - instalation. The money would have been better spent on digitising their archive and setting up an open access website, along the lines of The Max Hunter Collection. But no - we'll have a piece of mediocre junk that has FA to do with what the organisation are supposed to be representing. What a waste.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:50 AM

How much does it weigh? Would thieves really be able to cart it off?

I ask cos I'd be tempted to put it in the garden anyway, if it was up to me. So what if it might cease to work as an instrument, it looks magnificent, and it'll continue to look magnificent as it rusts. Maybe there's a buried metaphor for folk music somewhere in that.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:07 AM

I'm with S O'P on this one. Nothing to do with the heritage that most of us hold so dear.
And clever as the mechanism is, I still think it sounds awful!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

I think that it is quite stunningly lovely ! And I think that the sound,too,is quite appropriately "potty" in a very eccentically English sort of way. It should be mounted ,in my opinion,in a lighthouse near to a busy harbour, in place of the old now-redundant fog-horn,and re-configured to play "We Are Sailing",or the BBC radio tune "Sailing By",whenever a vessel leaves harbour. Anyone agree with me ??


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:23 AM

Since it has very little to do with the EFDSS I am wondering why they are being criticised.

Unless you are the sort of person who believes things they read in the Daily Mail of course - that byword for journalism accuracy.

The money would have been better spent on digitising their archive and setting up an open access website

What an excellent idea. Let's see the EFDSS applying for lottery money to digitise the Cecil Sharp Diaries, or maybe creating a searchable database of the archives of six of the UK's most prominent folksong collectors. Then they could make each of the archives completely catalogued and digitised, so people could search the catalogues and view the digitised documents here simply by logging on to an open access website like this one.

I know people have been hibernating over this winter. Do keep up Sweeney - there's a dear boy.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:28 AM

Pressed the wrong button there before I finished.

The EFDSS would love to have all their material digitised and accessible. All it takes is cash. They have been very succesful at applying for lottery money. But that can't go on for ever.

I am a member and I make a contribution on top. Clearly you aren't Sweeney because otherwise you would have known what is happening.

I'd have said the answer was obvious.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:41 AM

What Paul Reade and FolkieDave said.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:37 AM

Do keep up Sweeney - there's a dear boy. (......) I am a member and I make a contribution on top. Clearly you aren't Sweeney because otherwise you would have known what is happening.

That's some attitude you've got there, Folkiedave - let's hope you're getting the help you so obviously need, eh? Otherwise - no, I am not a member of EFDSS; but yes, I am well aware of Take 6. What I was actually talking about back there is digitised open-access Sound Archive along the lines of the Max Hunter Folk Song Collection. You know the sort of thing - recordings of real people singing, not the jottings of a few exalted bourgeois antiquarians.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:50 AM

I think it's brilliant - if no-one else wants it, I'll have it in my garden. It would look great under the willow tree!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:53 AM

Yes, I'm all in favour of digitising amd making available the Sound Library of field recordings featuring real musicians over and above the largely irrelevant and indeed counter-productive "jottings of a few exalted bourgeois antiquarians". However, there is a danger of confusing different projects and sources of funding here. For instance the dosh to make necessary (sometimes required by law) improvements to the building is nothing whatsoever to do with the funding for Take Six, for example. The trouble with threads like this, fuelled as it is by inaccurate Daily Mail twisted half truths, is that people rant about their personal prejudices loud and long without being arsed to look up the freely available information about what is being done, how and why.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM

Oh, and as for the thread title; this is an unwarranted slight on the EFDSS which I am not wont to leap to defend, having been an unhappy employee in the Goode (aks "bad") years. After decades of thoroughly deserving every kick up the arse they got, they are at last in recent years getting on with the task of seeking out funding to do what needs to be done for the benefit of musicians and enthusiasts. The last thing they need is mindless, ignorant whingeing about an artefact produced by a craftsperson re-using contemporary materials to further the tradarts. It is an example of what exponents of multimedia arts and crafts have been doing for millennia.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Young Buchan
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:16 AM

"They've even painted the cloakrooms, obliterating graffiti that had been there since 1970."

What? Something gets nearly old enough to qualify as traditional and they destroy it!

Did they at least to check to make sure they weren't removing the working notes for Stan Crowther's Vicar and the Frog, or a rare obscenity signed by Ken Loveless?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM

This organ is not even news.
I don't know where I read it (Efdss mag maybe?) but I'm sure I read it last year. Today it's popping up everywhere.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM

I was serving on the EFDSS National Council when this sound sculpture business started. Being a member and an activist from West Yorkshire, I was supremely disinterested in the garden furniture of C#H but as long as it was somebody else's money (which it was) the project was ok by me.

If the money had been available for starting to archive the sound library that would have been brilliant (and right up my street) but it wasn't.

If the EFDSS committee had voted to spend the Society's own funds on this sculpture my resignation would have been on the table in short order. It didn't.

It's a shame that the sculptor couldn't get his act together, missed lots of deadlines, over ran the budget and ultimately produced something which didn't fit the brief and was not fit for purpose.

My archive of efdss minutes shows that the CO at the time expended some effort in monitoring the project but at the end of the day there were more important things to work at. The responsibility belonged to the artist and he owns that he didn't meet the challenge.

The Daily Mail don't let facts get in the way of a 'good' story and neither do some of the whingers on Mudcat. C'est la vie!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:20 AM

I didn't hear it at the national council meeting as I was never a member but I seem to recall some vague talk about wind chimes or something similar suitable for unsighted garden visitors. I do remember that the cost wasn't coming out of funding so, like Johnny Adams, wasn't at all bothered. While I think the resulting pin organ is quite lovely and extraordinary, some of C#'s nouveau posh neighbours would undoubtedly hate a pile of scrap metal stuck in the garden. So, go for it is what I say. After all, a musician who lives nearby has made a feature of wheel hubs that fall off as drivers go too fast over the speed bumps. His "gallery" stuck on the wire fence of the adjacent school boundary has been snapped by the local rag, though not the Daily Mail. Yet.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM

The money would have been better spent on digitising their archive and setting up an open access website, along the lines of The Max Hunter Collection

So they have an open access website - which you asked for and they are digitising their collections as fast as money allows which you also asked for. And for this they get criticised?

What I was actually talking about back there is digitised open-access Sound Archive along the lines of the Max Hunter Folk Song Collection. You know the sort of thing - recordings of real people singing, not the jottings of a few exalted bourgeois antiquarians.

The jottings of a few bourgeois antiquarians actually form the basis of much of the material that the folk singers sing in this country. The broadside collections are mainly the work of bourgeois collectors of course as well. And far far more extensive than anything Max Hunter has to offer, interesting and accessible though it is.

And since you clearly have opinions about what the EFDSS spends its money I would have thought membership would help the society and you at the same time.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM

With all due respect, that sort of defensive/aggressive approach does neither you nor the EFDSS and favours, Dave. I'm an EFDSS member and like you I top up my dues (not by much, granted, but it all counts). I happen to agree that if the money could be raised, digitising and making available on-line their sound archive would be a fantastic project for the EFDSS and far more useful than making available the writings of the exalted bourgeois antiquarians*, interesting though some of that stuff is. In any case, the two aren't mutually exclusive, though open access to the recordings is a far more exciting prospect than, say, access to Cecil Sharpe's diaries and far more likely to get people singing the songs.

This is the sort of thing I'd happily participate in a fundraising drive for. Not everything has to be lottery funded.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

* Most werre bourgeios, many were antiquarians, and in some circles at least, they tend to be exalted... pretty near description, I reckon.

PS I liked the art by the way. Floyd's "Relics" cover meets Python...


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:51 AM

The writings of the exalted bourgeois antiquarians are not the interesting bit of what's published - it's the music of and the information about the ordinary people that they visited, mainly at their own expense, that is important. The work that the exalted bourgeois antiquarians did pre-dates mass recording capability and therefore more effectively represents the richness of the old repertoire.

Although I am a keen audio archivist (and the director of a vast audio archive), I think that audio recordings as a source often tend to set the songs in stone far more than written sources. Listening to the young performers in particular, you can often tell which recording they've learned from. When they've worked from texts and picked and mixed and found a nice tune and put it all together, the freshness shows.

For my money it's recordings for learning style but then apply that style to the work of the exalted bourgeois antiquarians, or at least the rich legacy they painstakingly put together for us.

That said, I'm certainly not against having the EFDSS sound library accessible and it may all have been included in the recent National Sound Archive project - I'm not sure.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:06 PM

Me too Brian.

But I see no point in knocking the antiquarians collectors and their writings as "jottings", especially 100 years later. The collectors at the turn of the century were indeed bourgeois, the working class being to busy making a living to do much collecting. And recording was hardly feasible.

Max Hunter was a travelling salesman who collected between 1956 and 1972. Much of the material collected in that time (and indeed earlier) in this country is available - not least through Topic's "Voice of the People" series. And "Three Score and Ten". And through the excellent Mustrad series. Then there is the British Sound Archive. And other Topic records. We aren't exactly short of this stuff.

So the comparison is hardly valid.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:14 PM

I like the 'thing' (my Dad is similarly a bit of a mad inventor with big clockwork and water powered 'things') and I think it looks thoroughly engaging, albeit utterly irrelevant ..as perhaps such things should be?

But an online sound archive from the EFDDS would be super. Plus it'll stop all those smelly thieving scumbags who are currently illegally bumming copies of VotP off of others (who have paid honest hard-earned cash for them) and ripping off 60's revival albums from the net, merely in order to learn traditional songs..

Shocking anti-social behaviour like that would be eradicated overnight! Just think on the morally improving effects such an endevour will have upon the indigent delinquents?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM

"Although I am a keen audio archivist (and the director of a vast audio archive), I think that audio recordings as a source often tend to set the songs in stone far more than written sources. Listening to the young performers in particular, you can often tell which recording they've learned from. When they've worked from texts and picked and mixed and found a nice tune and put it all together, the freshness shows."

And that's great John, but not all of us get blessed with a middle-class education where learning music is deemed worthwhile. I'm teaching myself to read music in my thirties, purely so I can gain access to traditional songs. The majority of real people are musically illiterate, and as one of the unwashed illiterate myself I really like the idea of an online 'echo' or nod to the oral tradition for ordinary folk who might just fancy learning a song or two from their home county.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:25 PM

it's the music of and the information about the ordinary people that they visited, mainly at their own expense, that is important.

A little E.P.Thomson I think, which, although about folklore, applies to equally to folk song too: Folklore, in England, is largely a literary record of 18th and 19th century survivals recorded by parsons and by genteel antiquarians regarding them across a gulf of class condescension. And by the language used above, it's heartening to see such condescension is alive and well which is none the wonder. Anyhoo, given what we know of the Traditional Singers, in what sense I wonder are these people ordinary? Which presumably means the collectors were somehow extraordinary - hmmmm...

We aren't exactly short of this stuff.

Only if we're prepared to pay through the nose for it. As discussed elsewhere recently, all this stuff should on-line and freely available - the entire archives, not just the edited highlights to grace our CD shelves.

As the man said - we have the technology!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:58 PM

Only if we're prepared to pay through the nose for it.

Forget it, I have been wound up by experts.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

Meanwhile at the Folk Awards: this year's Lifetime Achievement Award for freeloading, cheapskating and generally never putting hand in pocket goes to . . . somebody called Sweeney. No surprise there then.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS cock-up
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:21 PM

"this year's Lifetime Achievement Award for freeloading, cheapskating and generally never putting hand in pocket goes to . . . somebody called Sweeney."

I've no idea about how much Sweeney spends on purchasing commercially produced folk product, however as far as being generous with encouragement and support regards my explorations of traditional song is concerned, he's been most free - but I guess that kind of human exchange doesn't have a worthy monetary value..


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