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the UK folk revival in 2010

Jim Carroll 29 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM
TheSnail 29 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM
The Sandman 29 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM
MikeL2 29 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM
TheSnail 29 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM
Bonzo3legs 29 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 29 Dec 09 - 03:25 PM
romanyman 29 Dec 09 - 03:25 PM
The Sandman 29 Dec 09 - 03:34 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM
GUEST, Poxicat 29 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 29 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM
Tootler 29 Dec 09 - 07:39 PM
Suegorgeous 29 Dec 09 - 08:19 PM
The Sandman 30 Dec 09 - 05:45 AM
Les in Chorlton 30 Dec 09 - 06:27 AM
Bonzo3legs 30 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM
Phil Edwards 30 Dec 09 - 10:03 AM
TheSnail 30 Dec 09 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,PeterC 30 Dec 09 - 10:18 AM
Marje 30 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM
Les in Chorlton 30 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM
Suegorgeous 30 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM
romanyman 30 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM
Tootler 30 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM
Aeola 30 Dec 09 - 07:17 PM
Old Vermin 31 Dec 09 - 04:44 AM
theleveller 31 Dec 09 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM
Phil Edwards 31 Dec 09 - 09:40 AM
Phil Edwards 31 Dec 09 - 09:47 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM
Marje 31 Dec 09 - 12:44 PM
The Sandman 31 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM
GUEST, Poxicat 31 Dec 09 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Lord Glueman of Holme 31 Dec 09 - 02:22 PM
Suegorgeous 31 Dec 09 - 03:04 PM
The Sandman 01 Jan 10 - 07:02 AM
Suegorgeous 01 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM
TheSnail 01 Jan 10 - 10:57 AM
Phil Edwards 01 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM
GUEST, Poxicat 01 Jan 10 - 03:53 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 01 Jan 10 - 04:27 PM
TheSnail 01 Jan 10 - 04:39 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 01 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM
Tootler 01 Jan 10 - 05:55 PM
Phil Edwards 01 Jan 10 - 06:57 PM
Marje 02 Jan 10 - 05:31 AM
Suegorgeous 06 Jan 10 - 09:03 PM
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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Bryan and all, particularly Bryan
I have been part of the folk revival for a long time; the best of that time was when it was possible to go into the clubs and hear folk songs well sung. I have always been happy to pass on whatever was given to me, in the way off ideas and of material - it's really was the time we spent collecting was about.
I don't expect to have people falling on their arses accepting my ideas and experiences, but I do expect them to be able to put them forward and have them accepted in the spirit they are offered with a view to passing on the music that has given me so much pleasure over the years.
That, apparently, is out of the question - thanks for that Bryan - so what's the point in my hanging round?
I'm off - wishing you all a Happy New Year and all the best for the future.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM

Just in case you're still listening Jim -

with a view to passing on the music that has given me so much pleasure over the years.

That's what we are trying to do. A little support and encouragement would be nice.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Suegorgeous - PM
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM

Les - perhaps your (twice-asked) question might get answered if it had a separate thread all to itself? I believe Jim plans to start a thread on that very topic... perhaps it's time, Jim? *nudge*

And maybe it's time someone (me, if I had the skills...!) started a little webpage somewhere that would be a resource for voice/singing training/courses/workshops/tutors/etc?

Sue
I started a seperate thread with suggestions, result four replies.
Borchester Echo.
"Come the mid-90s, the old guard's offspring + motivated mates came to the fore (Eliza Carthy, Nancy Kerr, Barnaby Stradling, Andy Cutting, Saul Rose . . . that sort of ilk . . . came to the fore, followed by Nancy Wallace, Matt Quinn, the brothers Sutton, the sisters Askew, the Oates siblings and similar bright young progeny."
With Respect not one of those[talented instrumentalists though they are] have realised their potential as singers [yet].
much as I have my criticisms of Ewan MacColl,not one of those can Handle a ballad halfway as well as Ewan MacColl,or Tony Rose[sheath and knife],or Martin Carthy[Famous Flower of Serving men],or Phil Tanner [Henry Martin],or Brian Peters or SteveTurner, those you have mentioned are still learning their craft as regards singing .
the problem with the 21 century uk Folk revival is the cult of the young,it is great to encourage, and give the young the opportunity but who do they turn to for constructive criticism, they are idolised like pop stars,and good as they are,they only receive sycophantic adulation from the folk press[because of their popstar like status],instead of constructive criticism,how are they ever going to improve.
This is not a new phenemoenon
I look back and listen to Maddy Prior singing Thomas The Rhymer,it is in tune ,but can you make out all the words? NO .
SHE BEHAVES LIKE A POP STAR AND YET CLEARLY DOES NOT ANALYSE HER PERFORMANCE


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: MikeL2
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

hi

I sang pop songs and got treated like a folk singer......lol

What did I do wrong.....lol

Happy New Year

Mike


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

Dick: the two waves of new(ish) artists I listed, albeit very incompletely: most unforgiveable among the omissions were lots of YFA contenders - notably Damien Barber, Tim Van Eyken and Rob Harbron - was in contrast to the "horrendous downturn of the 80s". I did not say they had realised their potential as they obviously will climb far higher.

What is different is that they can stand alone, if need be and in some cases are. having been incomprehensibly dissed by the old gits from The Swiggin' Pig who hold the equally unfathomable view that anything, even the amateurish dross they spew out, is Good Enough For F*lk. It isn't.

These performers do, of course, acknowledge their sources and influences . What they don't do is put up with shit from "organisers" such as the one who pulled your booking in a tour series at short notice or descend to crass, GEFFish amateurism prevalent in past-sell-by clubs.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM

Eliza Carthy, Nancy Kerr, Barnaby Stradling, Andy Cutting, Saul Rose . . . that sort of ilk . . . came to the fore, followed by Nancy Wallace, Matt Quinn, the brothers Sutton, the sisters Askew, the Oates siblings and similar bright young progeny.

Damien Barber, Tim Van Eyken and Rob Harbron


Yep. Booked quite a few of them and hope to book more.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM

not one of those can Handle a ballad halfway as well as Ewan MacColl

That control freak was a boring old git.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:25 PM

And there you have it, Bonzo....Ewan gathered around him many of the same ilk...both male and female...and the English Folk World fell into the hands of the Controlling, Sniffy, Super Snobbed, Intelligensia..and became so up its own arse that people still, even to this day, shy away from it.....

Or...they are deliberately driven away...


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: romanyman
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:25 PM

folk clubs folk clubs ******* folk clubs get out more, do something real, this thread was about folk revival as i remember, it dont need revials it needs more people to hear it, good or bad, folk music is just that, people are obssesed with clubs and hiding therein, most people dont or wont go to folk clubs, in my time personally im sick of em to many purists sshhhers and such, i stopped going 10 yrs ago, and from what i hear nothing changes, get the music out of the clubs and into the real world perhaps then ya can talk about revivals


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:34 PM

he could sing a ballad,with every word crystal clear,and in some case bring the story to life[more than can be said for maddy prior and thomas the rhymer].
he also wrote some very good songs.
Bonzo,you havent told me about the singing goats,were there just one,or did you see two.
Borchester,yes,
very good points,the club was in fact, Mansfield Folk Club,the reason given too many squeezboxers in a period of six weeks.
Steve Turner remains on the guestlist[although he only lives locally in Long Eaton[outskirts of Nottingham]of course organisers are perfectly at liberty to cancel who they like , it is however only common decency[imo] to reimburse , some portion of the fee, bearing in mind accomodation is likely to be approximately 40/50 pounds,and at 6 months the likelihood of a comparable booking is nil.,or offer an alternative date,bearing in mind that the original fee was a tour price.
I notice from their website they only charge 3 pounds.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM

I notice from their website they only charge 3 pounds

That is an entirely unrealistic door charge for a booked artists. However can they expect to cover a standard artist fee (albeit at tour rate), expenses and accommodation out of that?

It's not only a financial insult but an artistic one. At such a low door charge, punters will expect rubbish. A door fee for a major guest ought to be a minimum of £10. This is a prime illustration of what is wrong with the past-sell-by mindset of certain "f*lk clubs" who are still living back in the 70s. Shame on Mansfield.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM

I came here to do something else, but must point out Romanyman that you used to attend and apparently enjoy the sessions at the Nag's Head that Richard Bridge ran where standards varied from the sublime (Crow Sister, or Brian and Marion Rodgers, or John Barden's golden tonsils) to the abysmal like Richard himself (I have his permission to say that - although he is sometimes doing something interesting with the guitar) and possibly some (no names, no pack drill) even worse - and what is more the locals used apparently to enjoy it and even joined in - one turning out to be a more than acceptable guitarist/singer.

Diane, you should know that the capitalist credo that you only get what you pay for is false. Being expensive makes nothing any better. Being cheap does not make it worse. The liars and cheats of "selective distribution systems" pretend otherwise, but it is only a marketing ploy. A performer is as good as he or she is, and all strive.

A partly valid point is made above that the preponderance of young modern virtuosos seem to be instrumentalists not singers, but the relatively young Jon Loomes turns as fine a ballad as any (as well as bing a killer guitarist and fine multi-instrumentalist) and I recollect a young (very young) unaccompanied local singer at the last Miskin who told a tale as moving as any I have heard: Tori something.

We see other talents to be found posting here - like MGAS. I don't suppose any of them need to be told how to sing or play a folk song or tune, and stifled by the dead hand of pedagogy. That is the point. They have found their own ways.

But I'd still like to know where this revival is.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM

Here you go then.....for your Revival...a man I've only just discovered tonight, in Myspace...and what a wonderful voice he has!
Mind you, he's a singer/songwriter (shock! horror!) ;0) but just take a listen to him singing 'Lord Franklin' ......WOW!



Trev Reed


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:39 PM

What an intolerant lot some of you are.

You come out with pejorative terms such as "snigger snogwriter" and "practicing in public" to label all those who do not subscribe to your particular view. You pontificate about how perfect things were back in the old days and how dire they are now and how folk clubs are dying.

Does it not occur to you that perhaps most people who go to folk clubs are there to enjoy an evening out and a few beers with friends who share a common interest and they go because they enjoy taking part; singing a couple of songs and listening to others sing, hearing some new songs and some familiar one and in between having a natter and generally socialising.

We are not looking for professional standards from everyone, though we get it from some, we don't mind if someone fluffs their words - everybody does at some time, and some feel more confident if they have a crib sheet in front of them, well that's fine - after all, professionals forget their words sometime and need some kind of a prop when that happens, it's just done more discretely on the professional stage.

If you don't like that, well it's simple. Stay away, but stop knocking those of us who do.

Folk clubs are not dying. There will always be people who want to get together and share songs and the folk club - at least in its singaround form - is where that is happening and, where I live at least, there are plenty of them about.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:19 PM

Dick - your thread, as I recall, was a list of some bits of advice - it didn't really answer the query posed by Les, which was - what/where are the sources of advice on vocal training etc?

Les - Jim seems to have wandered off (temporarily I hope), so perhaps we're not going to get his proposed thread just yet. The best source of training/advice IMHO comes from doing it rather than reading about it on websites and books, of which I'm sure there are some good ones. Far better to learn by doing, at one of several courses/workshops run around the country, many specifically aimed at singers of trad song. I can provide a starting list of the ones I know about, if that's helpful.

Sue


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:45 AM

It is easy it is here on you tube,the vocal techniques are some of those used by classical singers,for extending the range and singing in tune ,and improving diction[it is not necessary to use vibrato] it does not mean you end up sounding like a classical singer, do I?
You select that which you require. but it means you dont damage your voice.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:27 AM

Thanks Sue,

"websites and books, of which I'm sure there are some good ones"
any suggestions?

"Far better to learn by doing, at one of several courses/workshops run around the country, many specifically aimed at singers of trad song. I can provide a starting list of the ones I know about, if that's helpful.
"

Yes that would be really helpful

L in C


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM

Thanks Tootler, like minds should knock some sense into these pontificating folk nerds, archering their views as above!


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:03 AM

Thanks, Tootler, for describing the problem so succinctly!

perhaps most people who go to folk clubs are there to enjoy an evening out and a few beers with friends who share a common interest and they go because they enjoy taking part; singing a couple of songs and listening to others sing, hearing some new songs and some familiar one and in between having a natter and generally socialising.

We are not looking for professional standards from everyone, though we get it from some, we don't mind if someone fluffs their words - everybody does at some time, and some feel more confident if they have a crib sheet in front of them, well that's fine
...
If you don't like that, well it's simple. Stay away, but stop knocking those of us who do.


I like that fine - as I've said repeatedly, it makes for a good night out. But it's a really lousy way to hear traditional songs sung well and with passion. Until I got drawn into the Beech singaround, I had no idea that there was anywhere you could go to hear traditional songs sung well and with passion - not only that, but I had no idea that I would enjoy hearing t. s. sung w. and w. p. as much as I do (much, much more than I enjoy a standard come-all-ye singers' night).

Let me repeat: I didn't know how much I would enjoy singing and hearing traditional songs. I didn't know there was anywhere I could go to sing and hear traditional songs. And this was after five years of being a regular performer at a Folk Club (and visiting several others). Anything wrong with this picture, you reckon?


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:08 AM

Sounds more like an opportunity than a problem, Pip.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:18 AM

Tootler's description is a perfect explanation of why the folk scene as we know it will vanish up its own backside. Little cliques of friends singing together with nothing to encourage outsiders become interested.

It wasn't cosy little singarounds with nobody caring that I am folk music's answer to Jeremy Hardy that made me interested. It was clubs run by people like Nic Jones with floor singers to match. Yes, once I was interested I was happy to have a go myself and discover my own limits as a singer in an appropriate venue, but if my first encounter had been that sort of singaround then I woudln't have come back.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Marje
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM

Oddly enough my experience is quite the opposite of yours, Peter. Although I had always done a lot of singing in choirs, I was nervous about to singing solo, and the first folk club I attended was a cosy little singaround in a basement bar. It wasn't at all cliqueish, they were very welcoming, so on the second turn around the room I decided to have a go, and did a song (and yes, I knew it all and didn't mess it up even though I was nervous). Some of the singers in that club were very good, others middling, but almost everyone seemed to sing as if they cared about it, and as if the song mattered.

In that club I built up my confidence and my repertoire, although I'm not defending in any way the idea that a club like this is a good way to practice. I always prepared what I was going to sing and made sure I knew it, which I found was essential in conquering the nerves.

Eventually I branched out to other clubs with a more formal "floor spot" pattern, and there I found I was ready to come out to the front of the room and sing. If I hadn't experienced the informal singaround first, I might never have had the confidence or the skill to get up and do a floor spot of a couple of songs in front of a roomful of people.

Marje


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

I think it says a lot about old songs and tunes that not only do they survive but they are being sung and played in different ways without loosing what evr it was tat enabled them to last so long.

A problem for all once a week events is that most of us probably wouldn't want to go that often and the quality and variety probably doesn't exist to sustain our attendance.

What ever folk is it can be tasted in many contexts:

Folk Clubs + guests
Singarounds
Tune session
Ceilidhs
Workshops
Festivals
Morris etc.
and so on.

Perhaps the people who organise this variety could share the way they spread information?

L in C


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM

Will do, Les, soon as I can. :)


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: romanyman
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

Poxicat yup i used to go to richards do and yup enjoyed it, but hey isnt that what ive been sayin take the music to the public not wait and expect joe public to beat a path to ya bloody door it wont happen.
but and as always there is a but how many of joe public came, sadly not many. and the point is dont revive, educate, show people the days of the stereotype folkie are gone, apart from the few that still linger,


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM

The singarounds I go to locally are definitely not cliquey. Cosy? I don't know, but certainly they are welcoming to newcomers and there is a friendly atmosphere or I would not have kept going. I was encouraged by the regulars who always made me feel welcome and also encouraged my singing.

One point I was getting at is that not everyone who goes to a folk club as a participant is a professional performer, and not all have strong aspirations in that direction. They are simply people who enjoy folk music and enjoy singing (and playing an instrument in many cases) and in fact care about their music.

To use pejorative terms such as "snigger snogwriter" or "practicing in public" or to condemn them for forgetting their words sometimes - what professional hasn't done that some time? and wanting to keep a cribsheet handy as a confidence booster is a gross insult to these people.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Aeola
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 07:17 PM

All the practice in private cannot beat the lesson learned in front of a live audience. It doesn't have to be a paying audience either. I am a little dismayed at some comments which seem to be based on ' research ' as though that is the be all and end all. Over the years 'research' in many different fields has been found to be slightly mis interpreted/represented and can be clouded by the individual. No doubt there are some academics out there who can comment!!


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Old Vermin
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:44 AM

As someone said, we're all still learning.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:51 AM

"Over the years 'research' in many different fields has been found to be slightly mis interpreted/represented "

It's called the drunk and lamp post syndrome. You use if for support rather than illumination.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

"One point I was getting at is that not everyone who goes to a folk club as a participant is a professional performer, and not all have strong aspirations in that direction. They are simply people who enjoy folk music and enjoy singing (and playing an instrument in many cases) and in fact care about their music.

To use pejorative terms such as "snigger snogwriter" or "practicing in public" or to condemn them for forgetting their words sometimes - what professional hasn't done that some time? and wanting to keep a cribsheet handy as a confidence booster is a gross insult to these people."

To my mind this is a rights AND responsibilities issue. If a club or singaround 'grants' you the 'right' to sing (and most do, in my experience) then you have a 'responsibility' towards the the other members of the organisation (whether it be the audience or other singers) not to bore the pants off them, or cause them discomfort and, hopefully, to entertain and move them. If you can't remember the words, or sing in tune, or interpret a song in an interesting way, then you are not fulfilling your responsibilities - and THAT'S insulting!

This debate is ALWAYS framed in terms of discouraging beginners - but, I insist, it is not! There is nothing wrong with encouraging beginners but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask beginners to work at their art and to try to improve; it is their responsibility to do so. What annoys me is people who are crap as beginners and crap 3 or 4 years later. What often tends to happen is that they transcribe longer and longer songs into their f****ng exercises books and hence take longer and longer to mumble and moan their way through them!


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:40 AM

This debate is ALWAYS framed in terms of discouraging beginners - but, I insist, it is not!

Absolutely. For me it's about two things. (This is unfortunate, because they seem like very separate issues, but I think they're quite closely connected.) One is the material: if a newcomer wanders into your local club, what kind of signal will they get in terms of what type of material is going go down well? The other is the level of performance: what kind of message will that newcomer get in terms of how good they need to be before they get up?

The message most people will get from most FCs I've been to is
a) blues, country, singer-songwriter stuff - your own if it's good enough - a bit of trad if you can bring it off... just get up there and sing it
b) try not to stop halfway through, don't use a crib unless you have to, but the main thing is to have a bash

I think the two things are connected, because the underlying message in both cases is "anything goes". Which is great if what you want to do is sing whatever you feel like & relax with like-minded musicians. It's not got much to do with traditional music, though.

Whether by luck or design, the Beech singaround has developed into somewhere where the messages are
a) traditional preferred (although plenty of other stuff is welcome)
b) do it as well as you can

As a result the Beech is somewhere where you'll not only hear traditional* songs you've never heard before, but songs you know sung extraordinarily well, & songs you thought you knew sung in ways you'd never heard before. (We're down there next Wednesday, by the way.)

That, to me, is what a folk club should be like - but I know that clubs like that are very thin on the ground. The UK folk revival in 2010? Like Gandhi said when he was asked about Western civilisation - I think it would be a very good idea.

*Mostly, but not exclusively.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:47 AM

Speaking of putting off newcomers, I've just scared myself off going to the Beech on Wednesday ("extraordinarily well", by crikey). I'd like to add that you'll also hear all manner of crass amateurism and slipshod tomfoolery. (Mostly, but not exclusively, traditional.)


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Marje
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:44 PM

I've said this before, but I'll say it again: in my experience it's not the beginners who are a problem, it's some of the older performers.

At a club I visited not so long ago, a man of mature years appeared for the first time and was welcomed to sing. For his first number he just played a series of vague chords on a badly out-of-tune 12-string guitar. For his second, he produced a sheet of words, placed them on a table in front of him, announced happily, "I haven't practised!" and proceeded to prove this by adding a tuneless mumble of some sort of poem to the guitar noise.

Fortunately, performances of this degree of awfulness are rare, but they're usually inflicted on us by people who've evidently been doing this for years, with no consideration for those who have to listen to them.

Marje


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

Try Islington Folk Club in London!!


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:43 PM

I see, the "revival" is metropolocentric. Hmm


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Lord Glueman of Holme
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 02:22 PM

"For his first number he just played a series of vague chords on a badly out-of-tune 12-string guitar. For his second, he produced a sheet of words, placed them on a table in front of him, announced happily, "I haven't practised!" and proceeded to prove this by adding a tuneless mumble of some sort of poem to the guitar noise."

You've warmed my New Year's Eve. There isn't nearly enough of this kind of thing, it's bland virtuosity and historical research at the places I visit.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:04 PM

Dick - ummm, what's your point there? didn't quite geddit....


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:02 AM

It must be where Bonzo has seen singing goats.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM

Possibly, but still don't get your post *scratches head dolefully*


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 10:57 AM

Pip Radish

That, to me, is what a folk club should be like - but I know that clubs like that are very thin on the ground. The UK folk revival in 2010? Like Gandhi said when he was asked about Western civilisation - I think it would be a very good idea.

Good ideas are all...er....very good but they don't just happen. Somebody has to get up and actually does something about it. Somebody has to find a venue, set the aims and purposes, assemble a few like minded individuals, book the guests if that's the way you're going to go, set out the chairs, do the advertisng, sell the tickets...

Folk club organisers aren't some separate species, they are just enthusiasts like you or me.

Getting the hint yet, Pip?


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

Not really, no.

Here and now, I've got no reason to start organising a club - I'm in the fortunate position of having a club like that to go to. A couple of years ago, before the Beech singaround started (or rather, before Les got it going), I had no idea of what I was missing - I was a regular at a Folk Club, after all.

My comments are really aimed at anyone else who's in the position I was in a few years ago - the message being, There is a better way, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:53 PM

"Set the aims an purposes" - oh my sainted aunt, Glueman is right (many threads ago), here come the so-called civil so-called servants.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:27 PM

I've fallen in love with singing these old songs. And I try to sing them as well as I can, because I feel they're worth the effort, and indeed it's become an increasingly rewarding experience to put the effort in.

But for my own part I actually feel pretty indulgently towards those ancient old chaps who mumble their way through an exercise book. Just so long as there aren't *too many* of them at the same session at the same time.. :-)

I guess my feeling is that I'm on their turf, and this might be the one day in the month that they get out and meet people. Plus they've usually got something interesting to say (even if they did say it last time as well). I feel similarly about some of the dotty old ladies who work in charity shops.

I know this won't be an opinion shared by most, but personally I see amateur song / music sessions as principally fulfilling an important social role in the community. And to me the pastoral 'people factor' of amateur FC's matters far more than 'The Tradition', or whatever.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:39 PM

GUEST, Poxicat

"Set the aims an purposes" - oh my sainted aunt, Glueman is right (many threads ago), here come the so-called civil so-called servants.

Pardon? I would have thought that making up you mind what you want to do before you start was quite a good idea.

Pip Radish

Here and now, I've got no reason to start organising a club - I'm in the fortunate position of having a club like that to go to.

OK, not really getting at you Pip but I get the impression, from what you and others have said, that traditional music is a bit thin on the ground in your area. There's always room for more and you come across as just the sort of person who should be running a folk club.

The only way for there to be more venues performing traditional music is for people who care about traditional music to go out and organise them. Folk club organisers aren't "them", they are "us".


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM

PS "Poxicat", send RB my best wishes for the New Year for me...
I really miss those fabulous sessions he used to host at the Nags!*









*not an excercise book mumbler to be heard..


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:55 PM

Well said Crow Sister. You've very neatly captured the essence of the point I was trying to make.

I am on the way to being one of those "ancient old chaps", though I don't feel I am there yet (I'm 65) but I do try to learn my words and I hope I don't mumble as I think enunciating your words clearly is important. However, I do have a crib sheet discreetly available in case things go wrong, though I don't have to use it very often. However, everyone forgets their words from time to time and I have seen seasoned performers go completely blank in a singaround and have to give the song up.

What I do plea for is a little tolerance for those who have to use their words. There may be good reason for it. One person I know told me he had to start using a crib sheet after having a stroke some years ago as it had affected his memory. For others it's a confidence booster, they have the words there but only glance from time to time. Anyway I would rather they used words than not hear them sing as most, in my experience, are perfectly creditable singers. After all you are not looking for a professional standard performance in a singaround, even if many of the participants perform professionally. It's a social evening after all.

I agree with your last paragraph, btw. I think folk music is as much about sharing songs/tunes and making your own entertainment as it is about a particular repertoire.


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 06:57 PM

CS:

I've fallen in love with singing these old songs. And I try to sing them as well as I can, because I feel they're worth the effort, and indeed it's become an increasingly rewarding experience to put the effort in.


to me the pastoral 'people factor' of amateur FC's matters far more than 'The Tradition', or whatever.

Slight inconsistency there?

I don't care about 'The Tradition', I care (like you) about the old songs; I like singing them and I like hearing them sung well, sung passionately, sung differently or all of the above. A relaxed, welcoming group of musical friends & acquaintances who sing any old stuff is great - but a relaxed, welcoming group of musical friends & acquaintances who sing old songs and do it well is better. (And more fun.)


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Marje
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:31 AM

I see what you're saying, Crow Sister, but there may come a point where a Folk Club has to decide whether it is to be a "care-in-the-community" venture. This may be a perfectly worthy project, but it will not attract either the keen enthusiasts or the wider public who want an entertaining evening out. A club can carry the occasional passenger, but as you say, more than one or two and the whole evening can lose momentum and become quite depressing.

I'm not going to go into the whole crib-sheet issue again now, but there's a huge difference between carrying a crib-sheet as a confidence booster and reading from it as if you'd never seeen the song before. And announcing that you haven't practised is just being rude to your audience.

Marje


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Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:03 PM

OK, Les (and others) - as promised, here are details of some voice/singing courses/teachers that I can recommend, some (but not all) of them trad/folk-oriented. I have taken part in all of them, so if you have any queries, just ask. (I've never really used websites or books for actual tuition purposes, so I feel I can't recommend any.) Hope this is helpful.

Folk Southwest Easter School
Folk South West
Not yet on FSW website, but dates according to John Kirkpatrick's site are 8-11 April this year. This offers probably the best, most trad/folk-focused singing masterclass workshop. Fantastic tutors (eg Chris Coe, Tim van Eyken, Eddie Upton, Shirley Collins).

Folkworks
Folkworks Summer School
(then click on Adult Enrolment for 2009 programme)
Used to have a Solo Singer masterclass, but I think their voice class is now more group/harmony singing. Check when the 2010 programme is put out.

Maddy Prior's voice courses
Maddy Prior
Run by Maddy, usually with Abbie Lathe, and sometimes her daughter Rose Kemp teaches too. All singing/voice classes, with at least one masterclass workshop.

Baring-Gould Song School
Baring-Gould Song School
Past tutors have included: Sandra Kerr, Martin Graebe, Sian Graebe. Participants create their own programme, but masterclass/solo singing is always included

Farncombe Community College
Farncombe
Sandra Kerr used to teach voice here, but doesn't seem to be on the programme this year - but Jo Sercombe's Solo Singing looks good, and Frankie Armstrong teaches here too.

Lewes Saturday Folk Club workshops
Lewes
Class with Shirley Collins coming up! check with them about workshop content.

Counterparts (Helen Porter)
Counterparts
Not folk, more jazz/classical oriented - but Helen's actual voice technique tuition is first-class, in a master-class format.

The Tuscany Project
Tuscany Project
Again, not folk, but more musical theatre/cabaret/classical. This week-long workshop is pricey, and takes place in Italy, so more of a special summer holiday. Course is intensive, challenging, and with superb voice work tuition.


Sue


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