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Rebel Flag meaning

PHJim 24 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Stew 24 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM
wysiwyg 24 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM
Greg F. 24 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Oct 09 - 02:17 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 09 - 02:19 PM
M.Ted 24 Oct 09 - 02:29 PM
wysiwyg 24 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Big Mick 24 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM
Greg F. 24 Oct 09 - 03:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM
artbrooks 24 Oct 09 - 03:42 PM
wysiwyg 24 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Oct 09 - 04:09 PM
Lighter 24 Oct 09 - 04:46 PM
Gervase 24 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,eric the viking 24 Oct 09 - 05:17 PM
Gervase 24 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM
wysiwyg 24 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM
Greg F. 24 Oct 09 - 06:02 PM
Dead Horse 24 Oct 09 - 06:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Oct 09 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,eric the viking 24 Oct 09 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,eric the viking 24 Oct 09 - 07:37 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM
Rapparee 24 Oct 09 - 08:42 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 09 - 08:51 PM
M.Ted 24 Oct 09 - 08:52 PM
M.Ted 24 Oct 09 - 09:03 PM
artbrooks 24 Oct 09 - 09:08 PM
Dead Horse 25 Oct 09 - 07:12 AM
Greg F. 25 Oct 09 - 08:28 AM
Bobert 25 Oct 09 - 08:41 AM
Gervase 25 Oct 09 - 09:47 AM
Rapparee 25 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Oct 09 - 02:41 PM
Greg F. 25 Oct 09 - 03:46 PM
Rapparee 25 Oct 09 - 04:14 PM
John P 25 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Oct 09 - 07:55 PM
mg 25 Oct 09 - 07:58 PM
John P 25 Oct 09 - 08:23 PM
gnu 25 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM
Greg F. 26 Oct 09 - 09:00 AM
Greg F. 26 Oct 09 - 10:42 AM
John P 26 Oct 09 - 10:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM
artbrooks 26 Oct 09 - 01:39 PM
mg 26 Oct 09 - 01:48 PM
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Subject: Rebel Flag meaning
From: PHJim
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

Today I passed a picket line in Port Hope, Ontario and was surprised to see a Confederate flag being carried by one of the picketers. What is the meaning of the Confederate flag these days? It brings images of the KKK and modern Nazis and skin heads to my mind, since it is often seen in photos of their rallies and meetings. It also brings to mind the Dukes Of Hazard and "good ole boys".
What does it mean to you? Is it a harmless symbol of rebelion? Is it a racist symbol? Is it just a fad?


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM

It's the same reason that the fleur de lis is plastered all over Quebec. Sentimental hangovers from history.
Stew


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM

The meaning varies with the person waving it. No short answer.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM

It brings images of the KKK and modern Nazis and skin heads to my mind...

As it should.

Is it a harmless symbol of rebelion?

Hardly. Although some will employ this lame excuse.

Is it a racist symbol?

Without a doubt..

Its also the symbol of those who took up arms against the government of the United States in 1861. Look up the definition of "treason".

Its also the symbol of those who perpetrated the 'War Against The Blacks' from 1865 thru the eras of Black Codes & lynchings & thru the Civil Rights Movenment of the 60's & down to the present day. Also of the Sons of the Confederacy, the KKK and other such hate groups.

It should have been consigned to history's scrap heap long ago, and those who display and defend it in this day and age should be ashamed.
Assuming they have any shame.



Those who display it


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:17 PM

In England, when you see it on a market stall, or a T-shirt it seems to mean a preference for American Country Music, without any racist implications.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:19 PM

Very popular with Cork GAA fans, as you know, McG of H!


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:29 PM

The flag that Flags of the Confederacy

The flag that is being discussed here was never the official flag of the Confederate States--it was used as a battle flag used by the Tennessee Militia, and it was used as a naval jack--in reality, it has become famous because it was adapted as the official insignia of the States Rights Democratic Party in 1948. They broke away from the Democratic Party on the issue of racial segregation, which they spelled out in the Platform of the States Rights Democratic Party , as follows:

4. We stand for the segregation of the races and the racial integrity of each race; the constitutional right to choose one's associates; to accept private employment without governmental interference, and to learn one's living in any lawful way. We oppose the elimination of segregation, the repeal of miscegenation statutes, the control of private employment by Federal bureaucrats called for by the misnamed civil rights program. We favor home-rule, local self-government and a minimum interference with individual rights.

5. We oppose and condemn the action of the Democratic Convention in sponsoring a civil rights program calling for the elimination of segregation, social equality by Federal fiat, regulations of private employment practices, voting, and local law enforcement.

6. We affirm that the effective enforcement of such a program would be utterly destructive of the social, economic and political life of the Southern people, and of other localities in which there may be differences in race, creed or national origin in appreciable numbers.



It was nothing less than the official symbol of segregation--


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

... yes.... but no one can assume that every person waving it knows their history, and more than one can assume any person of color knows slavery history. These cultural icons, no matter how painful in their origin, are getting watered down thru time.

Seriously-- I have several times had the deeply odd experience of explaining some of these historical facts and symbols to people of color whose upbringing purposely did not include them.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

Horse puckey! There is no discussion as to what the flag represents. There are those apologists (I am not including you in this, Susan) who attempt to rewrite the definition to suit there own prejudices. It was a symbol of segregationists, and it has become the flag of the bigots and racists. We must never, IMO, allow anyone to lend any legitimacy to this type of thought and apologism, or we open the door to rationalizing racist actions.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:23 PM

Jesus H.---

On the website cited by the disingenuous Mr Ted (wch, by the by, is a Sons Of Confederate Veterans site), please note the upper-left quadrant of the "Stainless Banner", "2nd National Flag" and others etc, etc, etc. of which the symbol in question is a constituent part.

ALSO note the following on the Confederate Battle Flag from the same site (emphasis mine):

Quote: " After several incidents of battlefield confusion at Manassas, the staffs of Generals Joseph Johnston and Pierre Beauregard submitted designs for a distinctive banner to fly over the Confederate Army in Northern Virginia to set it distinctly apart from the U.S. Stars and Stripes. The design submitted by General Beauregard's staff was selected as the official banner, due mainly to its simpler design. Conceived on the field of battle for the noblest of reasons, to save the lives of their comrades, the Confederate Battle Flag flew proudly over every battlefield for the next four years, until being furled finally at Appomatox in April 1865."


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM

Here's a picture where maybe it means something slightly different...


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:42 PM

The Confederate Army flag was the familiar blue X on a red field but was, for some reason, square rather than rectangular.   The flag of the political entity which attempted to withdraw from the United States, over the issue of slavery among other things, was very different in appearance.   However, when the Ku Klux Klan was founded by Confederate military veterans in 1865, they adopted the military flag rather than the actual flag of the Confederacy. (The first Klan formed in Tennessee, so it would have been reasonable for them to have used the state militia version of it.) Thus the irrevocable association of what we now (erroneously) call the Confederate flag with racism, bigotry and hate rather than with the very real heroism of many men who fought for the South.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Thanks, Mick.

And I am not arguing with YOU, but not every situation is a fight. Sometimes it's an arm around a shoulder, a soft question, a quiet conversation... a long, hard cry.

One way oppression works is that it inflames people past the moment to think about what is the actual, immediate opportunity at hand, to seek peace. Sometimes that means that the apologist propaganda you describe so well-- which is deliberate and intentional-- has bamboozled a recipient.

And most folks are somewhere in that continuum. Not here, but "out there" in the 3D world, that's where they are.

To ask a person, "What does that flag mean to you?" as an actual, interested (neutral) question creates a completely different response than the reaction created by an accusatory tone.


Case in point-- the interesting mindset-breaking chat I had once with a rigid, religious-right pastor out on his sidewalk one day, about abortion. (Via pre-birth memories.) The mindset-breaking chats I've had with/from gay friends at different times in my own life. The life-changing orientation-correction about an apect I'd not known, about racism.... this is one way people do grow and do change.


If people are ever going to learn, first they have to be reached. Sometimes reaching someone works better without the fight.

I'm glad for your ability to fight the fight, Mick, and I think about that often-- the need for different gifts among a people. But there is also a place for the softer approach, and in MOST people's daily lives it's seldom an either/or proposition.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:09 PM

The thing is, most of the racist oppression that has happened in the USA has been under the flag of the United States. The same way that moist of the colonial oppression under the British Empire has been under the Union Flag.

Those are indeed reasons for a lot of people to feel uneasy about those flags - but it's wrong to assume that when people display them, that is what they are celebrating.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:46 PM

As a current official symbol, any national flag primarily "means" the nation it represents, with or without warts. (The warts are mainly visible beyond the nation's boundaries.) As a mute symbol, one can invest a flag with whatever deeper meaning history and society will support.

The Confederate States flag represents no current nation. As a result, it "means" on the one hand whatever those who fly it want it to mean. On the other hand it's going to mean something quite different - perhaps vastly different - to other people with different experiences.

The sign linked by McG of H is a great example of what I mean. In the American South the "rebel flag" is often taken as merely a regional symbol. Of course the "takers" are almost entirely white people who, at best, have a limited imagination and like the idea of being "rebels" of one sort or another. They like to think the War Between the States was fought not so much over slavery as it was to keep the Yankees out of their hair. During the War, most citizens of the white North were as racist as those of the white South. They just drew the line at owning slaves, partly because the North didn't have big plantations growing cotton, indigo, and tobacco, the crops that made slavery the most profitable.

I never assume that a Confederate flag must be a racist statement. Of course I never dismiss the possibility either.

For the sake of contrast, when I see the Union Jack flying in the U.S., I *never* assume it's a statement that the Queen wants the Colonies back. It could be - but that would be extremely weird. I think.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

Whenever I've seen it in the UK it's been associated with racists and NF/BNP types, to the extent that I would deliberately shun it, and regard anyone who displayed it as dubious.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Well, I grew up and continue to live in the South and there ain't no such thing as "No Nate, Heritage"... It's hate... No two ways about it...

B~


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:17 PM

Just a question, How do you view it when worn by re-enactors of the civil war period both in the USA and the states? Doesn't it take on a different perspective? If no-one represented the side of the confederacy then it wouldn't be much of a re-enactment. In this case there surely must be a parallel with re-enactors who re-enact WW2 battles or similar?


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

In this case there surely must be a parallel with re-enactors who re-enact WW2 battles or similar
To be honest I've got a big problem with that. Like the American Civil War, it's still too close to now. Anyone who wants to dress up as a Panzergrenadier or whatever is deeply suspect in my eyes, just as anyone who waves the Confederate flag is suspect.
As far as re-eneactment goes, I can just about stomach the Crimean Wars, but anything later smacks of Walter Mittyism and vicarious prejudice.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM

Well, let's take a music break.

Si Kahn has a great song, "Gone, Gonna Rise Again." I never knew when I first heard it that this is ALSO a southern-longing for-old-times phrase and all that entails-- slavery, etc. But I think Kahn's song is NOT about that. Or is it? Or isn't it?

I think his song is about the complicated, messy part of loving one's homeland.

But I would ask him before judging him. Just from that one song-- never mind what else I now know about him.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 06:02 PM

"Civil War Re-enactment" is a childish oxymoron. Unless you're going to issue live ammunition to both sides.

What you have is folks playing cowboys and Indians & trivializing the experience of warfare & the real participants therein.

There's a reason the U.S. National Park Service doesn't allow these travesties on National Battlefield or National Historic Sites.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Dead Horse
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 06:23 PM

"There's a reason the U.S. National Park Service doesn't allow these travesties on National Battlefield or National Historic Sites."

But dont those same Historical Sites sell those very same flags in their souvenir shops?
Over here in the UK the Confederate flag has just about the same significance as the Jolly Roger - so it probably just means that you are a rebel.
Against what? you may ask
What have you got? is the answer. :-)


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 06:35 PM

"...the American Civil War, it's still too close to now. ...I can just about stomach the Crimean Wars, but anything later smacks of Walter Mittyism and vicarious prejudice.

Crimean War 1853-1856
American Civil War 1860-1865.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:21 PM

"But dont those same Historical Sites sell those very same flags in their souvenir shops?" A friend of mine has visited many USA civil war battle fields and bought flags and other souverniers back that were from both sides. Cos he bought a rebel flag doesn't make him racist (I'm not aware he is and I've know him for over 35 years..he's never even told a risque joke in all that time)
Over here in the UK the Confederate flag has just about the same significance as the Jolly Roger".

That is quite true. Disney makes a fortune out of the popularity of Pirates, completely ignoring most of the less nice traits they displayed and on the 'Cat, "Talk like a pirate days" and in lots of places it gets big support

There is an Alamo re-enactment in the USA....I don't suppose the Mexicans matter though?

I do agree re-enactment is to some extent playing "Cowboys and Indians"...When I was a kid in England it was Knights in armour, King Arthur, Battle of Hastings etc, then WW2, cowboys and indians etc, but I grown up now (almost, at 60 years) and have "played" steam railway preservation and musician

But the rebel flag in the UK is used for all sort of meanings...certainly "Rebel" (against what..you choose) It's worn by a lot of bikers..without racist connotations. To my own knowledge it was worn large on his back by a guy in our club (When I rode m/cycles big time) who was called Mo.

By the way, he was a practicing Muslim.

"Whenever I've seen it in the UK it's been associated with racists and NF/BNP types, to the extent that I would deliberately shun it, and regard anyone who displayed it as dubious.". Don't think that was true in Mo's case !!

Does this idea only hang true in the northern states?

What about singers who sing "Rebel songs" as part of a folk performance? Tom Petty (Not folk) nearly always had that flag as a backdrop and even a coat with it as a lining.

I would suggest MTed, that very few people in the UK would have any idea of that 1948 declaration and it is very well associated at McGrarth says, country and western music at the very least here.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:37 PM

Sorry, "country and western music at the very least here" doesn't mean much..rather, for most people it is that form of association. One school I worked in..we had a big end of term music production. The head, non racist, but historian suggested we decorate the hall with flags, we had Texas flags, Mexican flags, Confederate flags,Stars and stripes all over the place. you could not acuse us of being racially motivated in flying the flag (Ignorant?...maybe in the light of some of the comments posted) but our kids researched and made the flags, then we got some cheap ones on e-bay as well for the backdrop. Bear in mind that over 50% of our school were asian, Indian sub continent, African-carribean, with a similar mix of staff.(By the way when they did ww2 we didn't hang swastikas, but the kids did draw german soldiers and swastikas on their models and paintings if they were depicting aspects of Nazi Germany).


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM

The Civil War (which it wasn't) was a major blemish on our history... Remembering it so that we don't repeat it is smart... Glorifying it is stupid... This spoken by a Virgininian where much of the war was fought...

As for the "rebel flags"... I have never met anyone who displayed it in public who wasn't a redneck... Yeah, okay, they have a right to fly the sumabich and the rest of us have the right to call them the racists and rednecks that they are... 1st Ammendment wasn't written exclusively for ignorant racists to prove their ignorance...

B~


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:42 PM

The flags of the Confederacy, regardless of the "merits" of the cause, were flags under which a lot of brave men and some women fought and died;. And since the states that were in rebellion were not and are not considered to be a separate country those flags -- the Bonny Blue, the Second and Third "National" flags and the battle flag -- are historical flags of the US, just as the Bennington or Betsy Ross or Gadsen flags are.

It really pisses me off to see any of these used as a racist or political statement.

Personally, I like the Pine Tree Flag with its motto "An Appeal To Heaven."


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:51 PM

That, Rap, with you being a skilled gun owner, is why you don't ever need to live in rural Virginia... These folks are somethin' else... Almost as bad as the ones I left in Jeffereson County, WV...

B~


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:52 PM

I am disingenuous?   Perhaps you misunderstand me--

My point, which I will rephrase, is that the Confederate Naval Jack has been the official symbol of the segregationist movement since 1948, and the historical "Official Flags of the Confederacy" are significantly different--

So the old "we're not waving a symbol of racism and segregation, we're celebrating an important part of our history" doesn't really fly--excepting I guess, that racism and segregation *is* an important part of our history--


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 09:03 PM

One thing that you UK-types may be starting to catch on to is that here in the US, we invest a lot more emotion in flags than is either normal or healthy.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 09:08 PM

Sorry, but I can't see that the States Rights Democratic Party, which formed in 1948 and dissolved after the 1948 presidential election, was a milestone of anything. The fact that they adopted a symbol that had already had its meaning forever besmirched likewise means nothing.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Dead Horse
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:12 AM

"One thing that you UK-types may be starting to catch on to is that here in the US, we invest a lot more emotion in flags than is either normal or healthy."
Right on M Ted.
You wont catch many Brits being upset at the idea of some grumbling foreigners burning The Union Jack or effiges of our political figures.
I guess that it is a national trait, like the Iraqi shoe thing, huh?
And the only time you will see the St George flag flown is when there is an international football contest or similar in the offing.
The racist bigots of the BNP are trying to highjack that flag for their own purpose, along with Churchill, Spitfires and the Poppy.
If they were to fly the Confederate Flag, they would be ridiculed as Line Dancers!


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:28 AM

It really pisses me off to see any of these used as a racist or political statement.

Ah, but you see, these flags ORIGINATED as unequivocal political and racists statements.

the states that were in rebellion were not and are not considered to be a separate country

The Confederate States did most certainly consider themselves a separate country.

And the "acts of bravery" cannot and should not be separated frfoom "the cause". A lot of brave men and some women fought and died under the swastika - or is the Nazi flag an "historical flag" as well?


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:41 AM

Actually, Lincoln should have just let 'um go... Slavery, contrary to some folks opinion, was going to go by the wayside and in letting them go we could have more than likely avoided a hundred years of Jim Crow... I mean, even today, the reeason why we can't get meaningful legislation enacted is mostly because of rednecks... Might of fact, if about 11 or so of these states proposed leaving the USA today I'd say, "Good ridence and don't let the door hit ya' on the way out"... I know that I'm gonna get the blast for saying this but, really, we'd be better off without these trouble makers...

B~


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:47 AM

Crimean War 1853-1856
American Civil War 1860-1865.

Point taken! I phrased that badly. What I wanted to convey was that the wounds of the US civil War were still too raw, compared with the Crimea.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM

The states that were in rebellion could call themselves anything they wanted -- they were not, to my knowledge, recognized as a sovereign nation by any nation anywhere in the world. The US did not recognize their right to secede and always considered them part of the Union. Therefore their flags are HISTORIC flags, much as the flag (if any) of the State of Franklin would be historic (as is the Franklin story itself).

What is past is past -- honor the valor, hate the stupidity, and be disgusted with attempts to use history to provoke division once again.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:41 PM

For that matter the swastika symbol had a long and completely inoffensive history, before the Nazis adopted it and gave it associations that cannot be avoided.

In China at one time it was used as a local equivalent of the Red Cross symbol, and in India it was very widely used as a good luck sign, and indeed still is so used.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:46 PM

and be disgusted with attempts to use history to provoke division once again.

Works for me - as long as one is equally if not more disgusted with attempts ignore historical fact & to misrepresent the Confederacy & the southern states' economic and social systems based on a class of what they considered "sub-human" untermenschen owned as property like livestock, both of which systems they went to war to perpetuate.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 04:14 PM

My God, Greg! No, never!

My g-g-g uncle fought with the Union at Shiloh, among other places, re-enlisted, and made the "March to the Sea." Others in the family did the same. They were not (as far as I know) ardent abolitionists, but they wouldn't derail anyone on the Underground Railroad either -- mostly, I think, because they didn't like "der vealthy men who had all der money und kicked der little man's ass" as my Grandpa put it (he grew up speaking Plattdeutsch).


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: John P
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM

Anyone in the United States who displays the Confederate Flag as a symbol of how they believe is being racist. And they know it. They may try to act like ignorant yahoos on the subject, but they know exactly what that flag means.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:55 PM

So how did that (John P's post 25 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM ) apply to that picture I linked to earlier?


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: mg
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:58 PM

No they don't. To many people it is the symbol of home and family and relatives who died miserable deaths buried in unknown graves, if at all...Many of those who fought were poor, ignorant, uneducated, diseased, developmentally delayed, country bumpkins or hill people, or people who immigrated into the wrong port. It would have to be decided by a case by case basis what someone understood the flag to mean..and some would be racist, and some would be segrationist, and some would be rebel, and some would be an expression of unexpressed grief..of things to terrible to talk about..of families run out of their homes..of barns burned down and livestock taken. Of sons and brothers and fathers who never came home. Of the stereotypical woman sitting for 50 years in her wedding dress, waiting for the handsome captain to come marry her.

I just have a song come to me very forcefully about a bunch of young women who decided to have a ball, with no dresses, with no ballroom, with no men to dance with.

Who are the bigots here? Who is talking about people they don't know as if they did know some very deep things about them..which may or may not be true.

We will never heal as a country or as a world until several things happen: the world forgives the Germans, at least the Germsns who did not create the mess, the northern US forgives the southern US, and the Irish forgive the English. Probably other situations as well.

Some of you are very obnoxiously sure of what you are saying but you do not know what is in the hearts of others. mg


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: John P
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:23 PM

mg, how many people alive and flying the Confederate flag today were there for the suffering of the Civil War? You post seems to be blending past and present in a strange way. Do you really think there are people in the United States who are so ignorant and isolated from society that they don't know the meaning of a REALLY well know symbol?

Who's the bigot here? Go back and read what you wrote about Southerners -- ignorant yahoos and/or retards that don't know any better. You are also making some remarkable assumptions about other people.

I don't actually know anyone who blames the current crop of Germans for WWII, or anyone who blames anyone else in the United States for the Civil War. I do know that everyone displaying the Confederate flag I have ever talked to was a bigot.


McGrath, I'm happy to say that even rednecks can make fun of themselves, and be well enough educated to know a bad president when they see one. I loved the picture.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: gnu
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM

I am sympathetic to all of these arguements.

However, I'll just ask this... even tho I know it will be "debated"... why fly a flag that is considered "racist" by some? Why not just make a new one?

Or am I way off base?


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 09:00 AM

Hey, c'mon, the U.S. has a Black president! There's no such thing as racism in the U.S. any longer!

Mary, you've spent too waaaay too much time watching "Birth of a Nation" and "Gone With The Wind".

No one "blames" (or should blame) the current generation of what you call "Southerners" for the Civil War- none of us can choose our parents or grandparents.

However, the "healing" you talk about ain't gonna happen until your "Southerners" admit to what actually went on during the Civil War and Reconstruction, rather than some "redemptionist", "reconciliationist" and "Lost Cause" fairytale.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 10:42 AM

You're not off base, Gnu, you're just allowing logic to interfere with your thought process.

No-one (well, excepting Holocaust deniers, flat-earthers & Obama birthers I suppose) would question that shoving a Nazi flag in the face of the Jewish population was a calculated insult.

For reasons that escape logic, there ARE those who think that shoving the Confederate battle flag in the face of Blacks and those whose ancestors fought and died to end slavery & preserve the Union is not an insult or a provocation, but a matter of "Heritage" (capital H).

Then there's Mississippi, the State Flag of which proudly displays the Confederate Battle Flag in its upper left quadrant, where a recent referendum on the state flag voted overwhelmingly to retain this outdated, outmoded, and racist emblem- see http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=33123.

------------

Here's To The State of Mississippi
   -Phil Ochs (1963?)

Here's to the state of Mississippi,
For Underheath her borders, the devil draws no lines,
If you drag her muddy river, nameless bodies you will find.
Whoa the fat trees of the forest have hid a thousand crimes,
The calender is lyin' when it reads the present time.
Whoa here's to the land you've torn out the heart of,
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of!

Here's to the people of Mississippi
Who say the folks up north, they just don't understand
And they tremble in their shadows at the thunder of the Klan
The sweating of their souls can't wash the blood from off their hands
They smile and shrug their shoulders at the murder of a man
Oh, here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of

Here's to the schools of Mississippi
Where they're teaching all the children that they don't have to care
All of rudiments of hatred are present everywhere
And every single classroom is a factory of despair
There's nobody learning such a foreign word as fair
Oh, here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of

Here's to the cops of Mississippi
They're chewing their tobacco as they lock the prison door
Their bellies bounce inside them as they knock you to the floor
No they don't like taking prisoners in their private little war
Behind their broken badges there are murderers and more
Oh, here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of

And, here's to the judges of Mississippi
Who wear the robe of honor as they crawl into the court
They're guarding all the bastions with their phony legal fort
Oh, justice is a stranger when the prisoners report
When the black man stands accused the trial is always short
Oh, here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of

And here's to the government of Mississippi
In the swamp of their bureaucracy they're always bogging down
And criminals are posing as the mayors of the towns
They're hoping that no one sees the sights and hears the sounds
And the speeches of the governor are the ravings of a clown
Oh, here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of

And here's to the laws of Mississippi
Congressmen will gather in a circus of delay
While the Constitution is drowning in an ocean of decay
Unwed mothers should be sterilized, I've even heard them say
Yes, corruption can be classic in the Mississippi way
Oh, here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of

And here's to the churches of Mississippi
Where the cross, once made of silver, now is caked with rust
And the Sunday morning sermons pander to their lust
The fallen face of Jesus is choking in the dust
Heaven only knows in which God they can trust
Oh, here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself another country to be part of


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: John P
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 10:43 AM

No, gnu, you're not way off base. Why, indeed, would anyone do such a thing? Why show up at a town hall meeting wearing a gun? Why paint a Hitler moustache on President Obama? Why advertise so broadly their un-American, un-Christian, irrational intolerance and hatred? Why aren't they ashamed?


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM

But why should the flag of Thomas Jefferson be any less offensive than the flag of Jefferson Davies? Both were slaveowners.


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 01:39 PM

I doubt very much that anyone here thinks that slavery was anything other than odious. However, would one of those who thinks that everyone in the American South believes exactly the way a minority of those in the region did in 1860, or that they behave in the manner that a minority of those in the region did between 1865 and some date (according to them) that is yet to be determined, tell us precisely how Southerners are supposed to recognize their ancestors who fought for the Confederacy? It is certainly true that much of the economy of the Old South was driven by industrial agriculture with an enslaved workforce, and it is also certainly true that, at state and national level, politics was driven by the desire to retain the South's "peculiar institution". However, it is also true that the vast majority of those who fought for the South neither owned slaves nor cared particularly if slavery stayed or disappeared. Rather than assuming that everyone who displays the Confederate battle flag is a racist bigot, what alternative would you propose?


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Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: mg
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 01:48 PM

Many of those who fought in the Civil War were not slave owners and did not in any way benefit from slavery. I have never watched Gone with the Wind..or maybe I saw parts of it..can't remember or whatever other movie there was. You can not expect the pain of war to disappear in living memory, and when I was born it was in living memory of some very old people. You can not expect a proud people to disown their ancestors...you can expect them to realize that their ancestors did bad things..and I have recently found out my ancestors were in the south and did bad things..very bad..and I would not allow the Confederate flag to be flown in public places..but neither do I think that families with an unbroken memory and unbroken history of flying it meant to shove it in anyone's faces...and yes I do believe people can be quite ignorant...

And I certainly don't believe that flying it is an insult to those who died in the Union cause..I do buy that it is very offensive to descendents of slaves..but that was not a common notion over the years....it was buy and large grandaddy died at Appomatox and here is how we honor him.

And the meanness that you have on behalf of other people, Greg F. in partciular, does not do anybody any good. I am through reading what you have to say, and that is only true of one other person on this list. You are just too mean period. There is a lot to be sympathetic about when people, including your awful enemies, have been through a war..hundreds of years later. It does not go away easily. mg


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Mudcat time: 27 October 8:02 PM EDT

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