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BS: BNP on question time

Gervase 24 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM
Tug the Cox 24 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM
Edthefolkie 24 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM
Penny S. 24 Oct 09 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 09 - 11:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 09 - 11:12 AM
Penny S. 24 Oct 09 - 11:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 09 - 11:03 AM
Penny S. 24 Oct 09 - 10:58 AM
Penny S. 24 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 09 - 10:35 AM
Penny S. 24 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM
Fred McCormick 24 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,surreysinger 24 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,surreysinger 24 Oct 09 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,surreysinger 24 Oct 09 - 08:35 AM
Tug the Cox 24 Oct 09 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 24 Oct 09 - 05:21 AM
Gervase 24 Oct 09 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 24 Oct 09 - 04:48 AM
Gervase 24 Oct 09 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 24 Oct 09 - 01:24 AM
jeddy 24 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM
George Papavgeris 23 Oct 09 - 08:35 PM
Tug the Cox 23 Oct 09 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,Mark Cohen 23 Oct 09 - 07:29 PM
Azizi 23 Oct 09 - 07:16 PM
Azizi 23 Oct 09 - 07:15 PM
Azizi 23 Oct 09 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,Joe Grundy 23 Oct 09 - 06:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Oct 09 - 06:04 PM
Smokey. 23 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM
The Borchester Echo 23 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM
paula t 23 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM
Azizi 23 Oct 09 - 01:33 PM
Fred McCormick 23 Oct 09 - 01:31 PM
Fred McCormick 23 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 09 - 01:22 PM
Azizi 23 Oct 09 - 01:15 PM
Lox 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM
TheSnail 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 09 - 12:57 PM
Tug the Cox 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM
Azizi 23 Oct 09 - 12:54 PM
Lox 23 Oct 09 - 12:53 PM
Lox 23 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM

The King & Queen did NOT spend the War even as far away as Windsor, they spent it at home at Buckingham Palace, in Central London; making frequent visits to bombed out parts of East London — and other parts.
Sorry mate, but they spent the day in London and were driven to Windsor at night. It's a matter of public record. Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret spent their whole time at Windsor.
If you read Chruchill's 'Their Finest Hour', he makes it clear that Mr and Mrs King commuted into London from Windsor. They were unfortunate enough to encounter some daytime raids, but they never had to endure a night raid at Buck House.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM

That's silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

If you want a perfect one minute summary of griffin's contributions follow the link.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM

I see somebody took my name in vain at 04:48 this morning - my own fault I suppose as I'm always losing my cookie. At 04:48 I was watching The Shawshank Redemption (again).

I thought Griffin made a complete prat of himself. Feeble grins, personal insults, suspect logic, suspect "facts". That's what he deals in. The audience member who addressed him as "Dick, sorry Nick" had it right. There is little point attempting rational argument with him or his supporters - let's face it, the whole point of the BNP is that it's irrational. But I suppose we have to try.

By the way, I understand that the Spitfire which the BNP used in their publicity was from a POLISH squadron - exquisite irony given their ideas about migrants. I don't think they are very well up on irony though.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:29 AM

Nothing against ground crew. I agree that they were under attack, as were all people in the end, and absolutely vital to the fliers. I was trying to be polite with regard to Griffin senior, and not play the what my dad did in the war game started by his son. There are some doubts being raised on the web about Griffin senior, which don't seem proven at the moment, and which I didn't want to spread without authentication.

I've known a number of RAF people, ground and air, and none were dismissive of pacifists. I have heard of one who reputedly crashed most of his flights and made a point of being scathing about lack of moral fibre in others.

I've also known a Quaker tutor in the OU who had a number of services personnel among her students, and she told me that they had some respect for pacifists.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:16 AM

Both my parents were RAF in WW2 but not aircrew.
Many such gave their lives, especially during the Battle of Britain when the airfields were under constant attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:12 AM

Thanks Penny.
Just a misunderstanding. Remember that Jews escaped to Britain from many countries.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:08 AM

I did say escaped Jews, implying, I thought, those from Germany.

Here's a bit from Encyclopaedia Britannica and the page for those who can read more.

A Jewish Refugee

Georg, whose family name was Igersheimer — before his parents very much to his dismay changed it to Iggers — was distantly related to Walter Igersheimer and had never met him personally, but knew something about Igersheimer's family and the conditions of" their emigration after the Nazi accession to power in 1933. Georg's father was a cousin of Walter's father, the internationally famous ophthalmologist Josef Igersheimer, with whom Georg corresponded. Wilma did civilian war service in the Canadian postal censorship, where she read the letters of German prisoners of war and of Jewish refugee internees and became acquainted with the conditions under which both were kept and could compare them. She also came to know a number of the Jewish internees after they were released.

The strength of Igersheimer's book is its eye-witness character, which throws light on the conditions of internment. Igersheimer came to England from Germany in 1933 at the age of sixteen, when his parents went to Istanbul, where his father had accepted a professorship after being dismissed as a Jew from the medical faculty at the University of Frankfurt. Walter was well integrated into British life, did very well academically, and was about to complete his medical studies when, in May 1940, he was suddenly arrested and placed into an internment camp without access to lawyers and cut off from communication with the outside.

Early in the war, the approximately 70,000 German and Austrian citizens in Great Britain were placed into three categories: A — persons deemed suspect and to be taken into custody immediately; B — persons who were to remain at liberty subject to certain restrictions; and C — persons in the vast majority, who were declared "Refugees from Nazi Oppression" exempt from internment and restrictions. Igersheimer was placed into Category C. Nevertheless, after the Nazi invasion of the Low Countries and the defeat of France, most of the persons in Category C were arrested. The motivation was, in part, hysteria about fifth columnists being hidden among them, but also xenophobia, although anti-Semitism cannot be totally discounted.



Igersheimer describes the terrible conditions on the S.S. Etrick, into which Jewish refugees were packed together with Nazi prisoners; food was scant and poor, and sanitary conditions were terrible. Strikingly, the Nazi officers received privileged treatment and ate with the ship's officers. Once in Canada, the internees were met by soldiers with bayonets, surrounded by barbed wire, and placed in overcrowded huts and barracks not intended for that purpose. The Jewish inmates were repeatedly insulted with anti-Semitic slurs by guards. Medical treatment was denied in many cases. Igersheimer, who suffered from glaucoma, and would have gone blind without medication, fortunately had taken along a supply, which carried him over until he was finally treated. Wilma, from the letters she read in postal censorship, was able to compare the conditions of the German prisoners of war, who were treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention, and the Jewish internees, who were not covered by it.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 11:03 AM

Thanks Penny.
I am sure you are right, but it gives the wrong impression to say that Jews were interned.
Germans were interned, including those who were Jewish.
Non German Jews were not interned I think.
keith


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:58 AM

Keith, I can't quote sources - I think it was a BBC program - and I can't remember which camp it was, but I do recall hearing how the Germans would sing the Horst Wessel outside Jewish services. I don't think I would have invented it. Or my anger on hearing it.
It must have been pretty bad for non-Nazi Germans in that atmosphere.

Anyway, Straw senior was in Wandsworth and the Exeter as a staunch member of the Peace Pledge Union who would do no war work (Some PPU people did). I think we need to remember that many of those pacifists were reacting against WWI, and it took time to realise that WWII was different.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM

And while trying to find out about Jack Straw's dad, I found some interesting stuff about Griffin's. He does, wherever and whenever he was in the RAF, seem to have been ground crew.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:35 AM

Penny, are you sure that escaped Jews were interned in the same camps as natzis?
Were they interned at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM

And can we not fall into the trap of agreeing with Griffin about the status of conscientious objectors? I have a friend who regards any country which does not allow pacifists the right to abstain from fighting as not worth fighting for - and he would fight, granted that caveat. Allowing non-combatant status is one of the things that makes Britain worth being proud of, in my book, along with a lot of other traditions the BNP would regard as un-British. Like being open to those fleeing oppressive regimes like Hitler's.

Incidentally, I have spent the whole of my life not eating Hartley's jams etc because the MD of the factory would not allow the Pioneer Corps working on restoring it to functionality after bombing to eat in the canteen with the workers because they were conchies. (The Pioneer Corps did war work associated with the Royal Engineers, and would say that some were in it for their convictions and some for their previous convictions. They cleared bombed sites and collected bricks for rebuilding. And the clearing was not a nice option. Or safe.)

I'm not aware of the details of Jack Straw's father's war, but I have an uncle who had fled Germany, and spent time interned - no choice. (I think that was in WWI, but the same applies in WWII.)It is possible that the Straws were in the same boat. Don't forget that escaped Jews were interned in the same camps as Nazis and had to put up with antisemitic behaviour. Not one of the bits of British behaviour that is worth being proud of.

But whatever the truth, scorn for pacifism is not, surely, something we should allow Griffin to be right in. And it is not, in my experience, something that those who have been in active service share. The only person I knew do it in company had been in the Catering Corps.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM

"What Jack Straw should have said.....' So Nick, your father fought the Nazis? Pity you don't do the same!'"

Tug, Nick Griffin's father (Edgar Griffin) is a technically a conservative, but with very obvious leanings to the far right. In 2001, he was sacked from Ian Duncan Smith's election team because of his BNP connections.

What's more, Edgar Griffin's wife is a leading BNP member and has stood for them both in local and national elections.

On top of all that, who held young master Nick's hand when he attended his first National Front meeting at the tender age of fifteen? Why, none other than dear old Dad of course.

(Sorry about the sarcasm. Not directed at you. It's just that it helps prevent me vomitting every time I think about them.)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM

Gervase Webb — I was in London, aged 8, during the Blitz; you obviously were not, young man. The King & Queen did NOT spend the War even as far away as Windsor, they spent it at home at Buckingham Palace, in Central London; making frequent visits to bombed out parts of East London — and other parts. I was present for their visit when my N London school, Garden Suburb, was bombed out and unfit to use in 1940, so I had many weeks off school. An air raid was in progress at the time of their inspection of the damage, and smoke puffs from a 'dog-fight' high overhead were clearly visible. But away in Windsor, I repeat, was where Their Majesties were not; Central London was where they were.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,surreysinger
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM

???? Where did the gobbledygook come from ... please ignore "the reason he goit" ... no idea where that came from!


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM

Curious, I thought that Jack Straw was not firm enough in his defence of current immigration control policies, and should really have smacked down the little Englanders (of all colours).   But we all know where the Times stands on the political spectrum and who controls it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,surreysinger
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:43 AM

and the impression I get from Mr Coates' comments is that the reason he goit the format of the programme gave Griffin an opportunity to present his chosen face (ie beleaguered, hated, bullied and put upon) on prime time TV ... in other words, he achieved his game plan ???


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,surreysinger
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:35 AM

Actually Edthefolkie, your statement regarding the Times article is both incorrect and misleading. For what it's worth,the scorecard which Sam Coates used allocated 7/10 to both Jack Straw and Nick Griffin - in fact David Dimbleby was the winner (if there was such a thing) with an overall of 8/10, whilst Bonnie Greer came out bottom of the poll with 2/10.

Your analysis completely ignores the fact that the so called score card was based on a total of five facets of the individual's performance each of which presumably contributed towards the overall score -
Game plan
Vote winner
Vote loser
Crowd pleaser
Exit poll


Just to set out exactly what Mr Coates said in his analysis for each of the individuals

Jack Straw

Game plan: Arguing that the BNP is a one-policy party where everything flows from their views on race

Vote winner: Demolishing Mr Griffin's argument that European law prevented him from giving his views on the Holocaust

Vote loser:Claiming that Labour has immigration under control and that it was not the reason people vote for the BNP in the North West

Crowd pleaser:Pointing out Mr Griffin went to Libya "to get the funding they gave to the IRA"

Exit Poll: Of all the politicians Mr Straw was the most passionate and quick witted. But he disputed rather than acknowledged voter dissatisfaction.



Nick Griffin

Game Plan:To acknowledge that "the elite" hates him, deny extremisim and concentrate on key messagees on standing up for "the English"

Vote winner:Looking sincere when saying that journalists misquoted him, and make him look like "a monster"


Vote loser: Suggesting a wizard of the Ku Klux Klan is "non violent"

Crowd pleaser: "You people (pointing to Mr Straw) wouldn't let us have our name (the English) on the census form"

Exit Poll: Despite a couple of early wobbles, he got his key dog whistle messages across in an hour of prime time TV and by portraying himself as hated, made himself look like a victim of "an establishment"

On the basis of that it is clear that Griffin did not earn points from Mr Coates on the strength of his political debate ... more by playing to the gallery, and manipulating the situation to his own ends ... witness the use of the words "key dog whistle messages".

And nowhere in his section of the article is there any mention of the matter of the parentage of either of the protagonists.

(Points achieved in the article by the other panellists were : Chris Huhne 5/10, Baroness Warsi 4/10, David Dimbleby 8/10 and Bonnie Greer 2/10)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:26 AM

What Jack Straw should have said.....' So Nick, your father fought the Nazis? Pity you don't do the same!'


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:21 AM

Thanks GUEST Edthefolkie.

It was probably foolish to have expected a normal programme anyway, considering the hype surrounding it.
The more Nick Griffin got attacked, the more I felt that, there's another voter changing sides!
So, Yes, it was right that he was on the show. But, maybe other issues like the MPs expenses scandal, The Postal dispute, Bankers bonuses, (etc) should have been discussed. Maybe we would then have found out a little more about the BNPs policies over other subjects, and not just immigration.
I think that its highly unlikely that the BNP will gain any real foothold in the mainstream of British politics, despite all the main parties shooting themselves in the foot at every available opportunity.

But to make sure they don't. We all have to go and vote for someone. Maybe Green is the answer?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:07 AM

I think that what people's parents did in the war shouldn't be held against them.
The Queen Mum was always praised because she stayed steadfastly in nearby Windsor when London was getting bombed, and made frequent forays out to meet the public.
Contrast that with my own dad, who scarpered over to France when war was declared, came back only briefly, then pissed off again to Africa, Italy and then Germany. The shame will always be with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:48 AM

Did any of you read yesterday's Times ? they rated Nick Griffin's performance on Question Time better than that of the Justice Minister Jack Straw who has the reputation as one of the best debaters in the House of Commons.

Sam Coates, the newspaper's chief political correspondent gave the British National Party chairman 8 out of 10 and said that he had achieved his game plan of acknowledging that "the elite" hates him, denying his extremism and concentrating on his key message of standing up for the British. The appearance will certainly see the BNP vote go up next election.

Coates said Nick was a vote winner because he looked sincere when saying that journalists deliberately misquoted him to make him look like "a monster"

He even acknowledged that Nick was a crowd pleaser when he said: "You people [pointing at Mr Straw] wouldn't even let us have our name [the English] on the census form"

In summary, The Times correspondence said: "Despite a couple of early wobbles, he got his message across in an hour of primetime TV, and by portraying himself as hated, made himself look like a victim of the establishment.

Jack Straw got a lower score but was criticised for claiming that Labour had immigration under control. A lot of people were unaware that Straw's father spend WW2 in prison while Nick Griffin's father did his patriotic duty in the Royal Air Force.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:11 AM

Good points, Goeroge.
I wouldn;t worry too much about the polls yet. UK Polling Report, which is a seething mass of psephological anoraks, dissects the latest YouGov poll and concludes:
So while the BNP support is up, it is nothing significant. 2-3% has been pretty much the norm for their support over the last couple of months, and the most recent YouGov/Telegraph poll at the end of September also had them at 3%...

...Anyway, the poll will really be looked at for evidence of how the BNP's Question Time appearance has gone down, rather than the main parties. As well as voting intention, YouGov asked whether people had positive or negative opinions of the smaller parties – questions that it last asked in June straight after the European elections. Back then 11% of people had a positive impression of the BNP and 72% a negative impression, today's figures are 9% positive and 71% negative, so no sign of any improvement in people's opinion of the BNP either. Despite all the hoohah and protests, despite the millions of people who watched Question Time, it doesn't seem to have made any significant difference to how the public view them, or how likely they are to support them (or at least, not yet).


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 01:24 AM

I concur wholeheartedly with George P.
The majority of wavering voters, who probably hadn't even heard of QT before, but tuned in because of the media circus, will sadly have missed the salient points and just seen someone they didn't know being bullied by other people they didn't know. That will be their memory of the programme. The consequence? In the first Opinion Poll since thursday, published today shows the BNP going up in the ratings! The only way to defeat these people is by making damn sure you go and vote in the next election. I don't care who for, just vote.
It did occur to me, whilst watching the coverage of the Battle of Wood Lane (Outside the BBC TV centre) just how many of the protesters had actually voted in the last election? Obviously this is impossible to know, but my thoughts would be, by not voting, you have given up your right to legitimately protest at anything.

As is clearly known. The BNP got their 2 MEPs not by people voting for them (Their actual number of votes was lower that time than in the previous European election), No, but by the fact that substantially fewer people voted for anyone at all.

It's our hand that has ability to break the BNP, by putting a cross on a piece of paper. It might be useful also if the main political parties would come up with some cogent policies re the immigration issue in this country. If they don't, then the BNP will continue to gain ground in certain areas of this country.

Apathy on all sides is not an option


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM

i do agree that asking nick about policies would have exposed him even more. but on the whole i think, it was always going to be this way, the questions centered on the past instead of the future.

i have mixed feelings about him putting a complaint in about bullying. if he ever got to parliment, he would have a far worse time of it.

politicians should be used to being under pressure, should be used to the scrutiny and should be used to being hecckled and questioned.
if he can't handle a very small group of people and keep his focus, how on earth would he manage at westminster?

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:35 PM

Overall disappointed. I was happy that democratic priciples won and Griffin was allowed to appear on QT. I was also happy that the Beeb did not fall into the trap of censorship. But I think that Griffin got far too easy a ride.

Jack Straw did not impress me overall. Every time he spoke, he went off at a tangent and generally muddled his point with irrelevancies - like referring to "his constituency" upwards of a dozen times (count them). By contrast the LibDem guy was lucid, concise, to the point and sharp. The Baroness too - she only disappointed me a little bit the only time she waffled, when confronted with her own past homophobic statements. Greer descended to childish levels of taunting - and yet at times I think she was the only one with an appropriate approach, in my book.

The really disappointing thing for me was that the majority (all?) questions from the floor and during the conversation were of the kind that asked Griffin to explain why he has in the past made this or that statement. That gave him the luxury of appearing the victim of an orchestrated attack, a point which he is already using in the media. And odious and slimy though he is, and nervous as hell on the night, these points will fly over the heads of the slogan-driven masses, but the "victimisation" will stick. The questions simply glanced off his scales, of course he did not answer them directly or satisfactorily, how could he, and why should he when it is easy to bat them away with politician's trick-speak? But he used the rain of direct questions to present himself as the victim.

Instead, I believe that one of two approaches would have been better: Have questions phrased so as to allow each panellist to describe their policies - which after all is the best way to expose the BNP; and to ridicule rather than attack Griffin (that is where Greer occasionally scored for me). The latter might have drawn him out much better than the "attacks", and is a much better weapon against bigots and bullies.

Tonight the panellists on Have I Got News For You had the right attitude. When Griffin's picture appeared during one of the questions, they all feigned no recognition or interest with perfect deadpan.

Whereas last night I was reminded of Les Barker's wise line about not arguing with a fool, because he is arguing with one too. At best you appear foolish yourself. At worst, you elevate him to the level of wise man, in the eyes of other fools. You cannot win. Ask him simply for his view on things - his policies - or ridicule him.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:04 PM

Tug,

Putting Mohammad Ali (fka Cassius Clay) in his prime, up against a comparative 7 year old Nick Griffin is not a fair shot.
doh...



erm NG now, as he is, MA now, as he was. Sorry about the imagination bypass, Chris Green realised it was about image fabrication, as I guess did everyone else....or do you have another point to make?


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:29 PM

Did any of you read the Times today ? they rated Nick Griffin's performance on Question Time better than that of the Justice Minister Jack Straw who has the reputation as one of the best debaters in the House of Commons.

Sam Coates, the newspaper's chief political correspondent gave the British National Party chairman 8 out of 10 and said that he had achieved his game plan of acknowledging that "the elite" hates him, denying his extremism and concentrating on his key message of standing up for the British. The appearance will certainly see the BNP vote go up next election.

Coates said Nick was a vote winner because he looked sincere when saying that journalists deliberately misquoted him to make him look like "a monster"

He even acknowledged that Nick was a crowd pleaser when he said: "You people [pointing at Mr Straw] wouldn't even let us have our name [the English] on the census form"

In summary, The Times correspondence said: "Despite a couple of early wobbles, he got his message across in an hour of primetime TV, and by portraying himself as hated, made himself look like a victim of the establishment.

Jack Straw got a lower score but was criticised for claiming that Labour had immigration under control. A lot of people were unaware that Straw's father spend WW2 in prison while Nick Griffin's father did his patriotic duty in the Royal Air Force.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:16 PM

Ah, I see I linked to that thread two times. Well, double the pleasure and all that jazz.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:15 PM

With regard to the minor topic of my name being used by mistake instead of Baronness Warsi's name, I understand how that could happen as I note on this much more playful Mudcat thread.

**

I don't feel that I need to address any other comments that The Borchester Echo made in her 23 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM
post as my questions and comments about British politics, culture, and history on various Mudcat threads, including this one are evidence of my interest in learning more about that nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:07 PM

I explained here why I thought my name called to mind the name of Baroneess Warsi.

**
Kevin, I appreciate your comment about Kermit the Frog. However, because of the almost total absence of Black & Brown* people in cartoons and relative lack of positive Black character on television, the standard depiction of good guys as Whites and bad guys as non-Whites, with black hair and black clothing is troubling.

And couple the fact that the history of animation includes many very negative stereotypical depictions of Black characters with that almost total absence of animated Black & Brown characters, then cartoons are no laughing matter.

* To use Baroness Warsi's words which (by the way, are also appropriate racial terminology in USA).

I've written about race in cartoons on at least one Mudcat thread whose URL I'm not going to hunt for, but here's a hyperlink to an article about that subject:

http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/media/storage/paper932/news/2002/04/05/Focus/Wb.Cartoons.Racist-2248288.shtml

WB Cartoons racist
Video collection reminds of bigotry past
By Craig Smith; Issue date: 4/5/02

****

Here's an excerpt of that article:

"If you were a young kid in the 1980s, you probably spent much of your earliest years watching the WB cartoons of Bugs Bunny and Porky Pig. If you think back hard amidst the laughter, once in awhile appeared a strange 'toon or two with really odd, savage-like dark skinned characters that suffered much embarrassment at the hands of the cartoon heroes. We were too young to realize it then, but this was the racist legacy of cartooning from the middle of the 20th century...

In Leonard Maltin's Of Mice and Magic, the famous Warner Brothers' cartoonist Walter Lantz gave this quote regarding TV censorship: "The first thing that happened was the elimination of all my films that contained Negro characters; there were eight such pictures. But we never offended or degraded the colored race and they were all top musical cartoons, too."

After viewing the Lantz cartoon included on the Goodtimes tape, I'm glad that Lantz didn't purposely try to "offend or degrade" anyone: He did enough damage without thinking about it. Virtually every stereotype one could apply to African-Americans is used in Scrub Me Mama With a Boogie Beat (1941). According to the imagery of the film, Blacks are lazy, shiftless creatures a step or two removed from monkeys until they hear music or see an attractive woman. Then they suddenly possess endless energy, albeit directed more towards dancing and singing than working...

Minstrel-style entertainment was featured as the punch line in the Bugs Bunny short Fresh Hare(1942) in which Bugs' last wish before a Canadian firing squad is that he were in Dixie. Native Americans were mocked mercilessly in Big Heel-Watha (1944), a Tex Avery cartoon in which Red got to play an Indian princess.

Among the worst examples, Tokio Jokio (1943), featured a parody of newsreels that turns terribly bigoted. The film opens with a rooster about to crow as the sun rises on Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun. The rooster turns into a sinister, slant-eyed vulture with a thick Oriental accent. The rest of the movie contains sight gags mixed in with horrible caricatures of the Asian race. Obviously a result of wartime hysteria, the intent of the film seems to be to present the Japanese as a subhuman race. Disturbing as it is, this is a far cry from the "just for children" attitude most people take towards cartoons."


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Joe Grundy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:06 PM

Tug,

Putting Mohammad Ali (fka Cassius Clay) in his prime, up against a comparative 7 year old Nick Griffin is not a fair shot.
doh....


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:04 PM

"the villain, Snidely Whiplash, is not White but a kinda greenish color.   Does this matter? I say Yes, since these stereotypes continue to permeate Western society in myriad ways.

I can't see that prejudice against green people is that serious a problem at this time. But in any case, I'd think that when it comes to green characters, Kermit has a much higher profile than Snidely Whiplash, and surely everyone loves Kermit.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

Azizi, I think most of us are grateful for, and appreciate your contributions.


Alternative panel suggestion:

Nick Griffin
Tony Benn
Quentin Crisp
Mike Tyson


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM


You do know who Ed Sullivan was, don't you?


Of course I do and although I would never willingly watch such unremitting crap (in common with The Simpsons and Twin Peaks), I am sufficiently aware of the content (or lack thereof) not to lump such productions indiscriminately with the current affairs output of the most celebrated trio so far in the annals of broadcasting. I have no knowledge of the production rigours applied to David Dimbleby's programmes, never having worked on them, but when I was attached to brother Jonathan's On The Record, the standards of research demanded into issues such as the BNP predecessor the National Front and its French equivalent the Front Nationale were the highest I have encountered in broadcasting or print journalism. The annual Richard Dimbleby lectures stand as a testament to the outstanding career of their late father.

As for QT panellist Sayeeda Warsi, a Tory Shadow Cabinet member for something meaningless, I found it mildly amusing and extremely bizarre that someone managed to confuse her with a contributor called "Azizi" who, I imagined, might wish to set the record straight. Whatever. Since she says she neither knows nor cares about anything associated with the British political system, I am obviously wasting my time and breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: paula t
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

It pains me to say it , but I believe that once some misguided person had decided to give Griffin the publicity and credibility of being on question time, the panel should have avoided the temptation to "gang up on him". That could be seen in some quarters as bullying. The last thing we needed was for him to become some sort of victim.
He should have been made to answer the usual questions about the recession, and other current affairs.I'm sure that would have shown him up as someone with tunnel vision, who has nothing of value to say, and no idea what to do about unemployment,crime, etc - issues which greatly trouble the people who voted for him .That would have been the only value in upholding the right to free speech.(Although why he has this right when he regularly commits the crime of inciting racial hatred I do not know.)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:33 PM

Not really off the subject:

I just clicked on that webpage again and noticed how the hero of this cartoon series Dudley Do-Right is drawn as a blong haired White man. His lady love (Nell Fenwick) is also drawn as a White woman (with red hair). And Dudley rides a white horse.

But "Whiplash is the stereotypical villain, in the style of stock characters found in silent movies and earlier stage melodrama, wearing black clothing, cape, and a top hat, and twirling his long handlebar moustache. He has a henchman named Homer, who usually wears a tuque. In the cartoon's opening segments, Snidely is seen tying Nell Fenwick to a railroad track. He is the antithesis of Do-Right, a picture-perfect stereotype of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police do-gooder.".

-snip-

The writer fails to mention that the villain, Snidely Whiplash, is not White but a kinda greenish color.

Does this matter?

I say Yes, since these stereotypes continue to permeate Western society in myriad ways.

This is an example of how deeply rooted, pernicious, and often unconscious institutional racism can be.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:31 PM

Just a ps to the above. Did anybody notice, almost at the end of Question Time, Griffin accused the BBC of being ultra-left? I'm surprised none of the media seemed to pick that one up.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM

I ended up being sickened by the whole thing, so much so that I haven't been able to put finger to keyboard until now.

Yes, Griffin is an odious crud, and God knows he asked for it - and deserved it. But watching the spectacle of four panellists, one MC and I don't know how many audience members all tearing into him was like watching the town bully receiving the kicking of his life. I ended up wanting to shout enough is enough.

To make things worse, I do not think last night's QT did enough to expose the inconsistencies and contradictions of Griffin's position. The debate seemed to go round in circles with various panellists becoming hung up on what constitutes ethnicity. I don't know, but I do not what constitutes a first class prat, and he was sitting just on Dimbleby's left side.

When the programme was first mooted, I predicted Griffin would end up getting massacred, and that's certainly what happened. However, I was hoping then that the rest of the panel would, by reason of intelligent debate, force out of Griffin, the said inconsistencies, and show that they are the inevitable end-product of trying to launder an ideology as nauseous as fascism.

Positive points? Well, it had to be good to see the extent to which fascism is still reviled in this country, and that the Nick Griffins of this world cut no ice with decent, thinking people. It was also good to have confirmed something which I've long suspected; that the man is a complete buffoon who couldn't lead a parade of donkeys. I've read, and listened to, some of his more moronic statements, about dropping unwanted immigrants out of planes over Africa, or about sinking ships of illegal immigrants, and wondered how anyone with a Cambridge degree and a public school education, and a modicum of intelligence, and a desire to make it as a credible politician, could come out with such guff. Had he, I wondered, been saying these things just to pander to his own supporters? Evidently not.

I'm also left wondering what on earth I've been worried about all this time. Is Griffin the epitome of odium ? Unquestionably. Are his policies anathema to anyone who doesn't walk round with a bucket over their head? Certainly. But a charismatic, eloquent demagogue, who is capable of leading this country into the kind of mass destruction wrought by Hitler and his henchmen ? Never in a million years.

The question I'm now asking myself is, where does the far right go from here? I doubt Griffin's performance did him much harm among BNP supporters in BNP heartlands. Indeed, he may experience a slight surge in sympathetic support. But whether or not QT got to the heart of the matter or not, for everybody else, he has been exposed as the emperor with no clothes; as the man behind the curtain shouting "Take no notice of that man behind the curtain", in the Wizard of Oz.

But Griffin has been extremely successful in one respect. His attempts to carve out a 'constitutional' popular far right party, and sell it as the patriotic way forward, have pushed the more overtly extremist elements into the background. British fascism has gone through a number of phases since the second world war. It began as a group of outright nazis, swastikas and all, who were oblivious to the fact that we'd just defeated, and been sickened by, the very ideology they were trying to sell us. They then tried donning various shades of respectability, but still racist, still undeniably fascist, and still fooling no-one. Then Griffin decided to take the respectable image as far as it would go, and he found out last night that it will not stretch far enough to hide the real agenda of the BNP.

I'd like to nurse a quiet hope that last night's debacle will mark the beginning of the end of the BNP; that enough people will now have seen through them and through their pathetic attempts to make a constitutional silk purse out of a fascist sow's ear.

But at the same time, I have a nagging feeling that some of those fascists who realise the democratic process is a dead end, will return to the more orthodox methods of fascism; of jack boots and street parades and terrorisation of ethnic and social minorities. Keep your powder dry, folks. We just might need it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:22 PM

Poppy's - worn to commemorate those who died in the first world war.

The fallen of ALL wars I believe, although it is commemorated on the anniversary of the end of WW2, Armictice Day, Novemeber 11. Good camapaign poster this year showing the lone coffin of a soldier fallen in Afghanistan.

Azizi - You are kidding me? I bet you have never heard of Bishops riding round on kiddies tricycles while being pelted with cream cakes next. Do the have NO decent perversions in the US?:-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:15 PM

I appreciate the responses, including the pm responses that I received.

I thought I was following what was written quite well (What with British English being a foreign language and all) until the mention of Sadie Whiplash and her involvement with a Lord.

No disrespect intended, but the name "Sadie Whiplash" reminds me of Snidely Whiplash, a character in "the tongue-in-cheek Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties segments of The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show by American animation pioneer Jay Ward."

And the mention of "a Lord" is foreign to me as a 'UnitedStater' since we don't have any Lords beside "the Lord" (which I know you weren't refering to].

I know this is just a diversion from the more serious discussions about fascism and racism and immigration and more.

Yet these comments illustrate how assumptions about cultural "givens" can be misunderstood.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

"Thanks, Lox. I think."

Doh - just reread the capitalization question.

And then reread my answer.

I answered a different question - take no notice of my bad grammer.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

There is slightly more to the wearing of poppies in this situation because Griffin has been trying to appropriate it to his cause along with Churchill and the Spitfire. much to the annoyance of the British Legion. See here - http://www.nothingbritish.com/09/bnp-news-round-up/.

I must say Tug's reference to the White Islands and Highlands confused me as well. The Highlands and Islands usually refers to the wilder and less populated parts of mainland Scotland and the islands down it's west coast. Relatively poor areas compared to the prosperous Lowlands.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, a political whip is a FORCED party line. Unless it involves Sadie Whiplash, when there is almost always a Lord involved...


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

White in white highlands and islands does indeed refer to skin colour.

    In most cities that have attracted non-white immigration, the poorer quarters in what is known as the zone in transition are ususually inhabited first, as housing is more affordable. Alongside these are prosperous areas with expensive housing...the highlands, and areas outlying the chief areas of immigration, the islands.
Asian is normally capitalised when referring to a group of people, if it is a noun rather than an adjective,lower case if it is a more general adjective. I'm a lazy typer!
The red flowers were the British Legion Poppy appeal for remembrance Sunday, raising funds for the welfare of former servicemen. No celebrity or politician could afford to be seen without one at this time of year. Try to wear a white one ( for peace) and you're likely to be lynched.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

I am sure someone will cross-post but

1. The red badges are poppies - worn for remeberence day - Novemeber 11.

2. A whip round is a collection. To whip up is to agitate. A political whip is a ficed party line, so this all depends on context.

3. The capitalisation is, I suspect, just a web based movement away from proper punctuation.

4. White Islands and Highlands - Over to you Tug. It's a new one on me.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:54 PM

Thanks, Lox. I think.

(I think. Therefore I am.)

Beside that, I'm procrastinating focusing on a project that I should be working on.


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:53 PM

1. "What is the meaning of the red flower lapel pins"

Poppy's - worn to commemorate those who died in the first world war.

Sold to raise money to help war veterans and worn on poppy day.

2. Not "whip up" but "whip around"

"To Whip up" would be "to incite" as in "whip up a storm/frenzy" etc though someones gran might be known to "whip up a meal" at short notice.

3. In the UK Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are commonly referred to as Asians though they might be better described as south asians as opposed to other general Asian groups such as indochinese or orientals.

These terms refer to geographical generalities.

4 - sorry no idea :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

Bragga-what?

Azizi - have you turned into Mary Hip-hoppins?

Your rhyme was truly Supercalafrajalistic-hip-hop-braggadocious.


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