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BS: UK immigration too high?

Riginslinger 13 Oct 09 - 01:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 09 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,Den 13 Oct 09 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 09 - 03:53 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Oct 09 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 09 - 03:05 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Oct 09 - 07:13 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Oct 09 - 06:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 09 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 09 - 03:55 AM
Royston 12 Oct 09 - 03:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 09 - 02:57 AM
Royston 11 Oct 09 - 06:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 09 - 05:33 PM
Royston 11 Oct 09 - 05:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Oct 09 - 01:39 PM
Royston 11 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 09 - 09:14 AM
Royston 11 Oct 09 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 09 - 07:31 AM
Royston 10 Oct 09 - 03:09 PM
Royston 10 Oct 09 - 09:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 09 - 03:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 09 - 07:07 AM
Mr Happy 09 Oct 09 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 09 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 09 - 05:42 AM
Mr Happy 09 Oct 09 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 09 - 03:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 09 - 02:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 09 - 02:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Oct 09 - 05:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 09 - 03:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Oct 09 - 02:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 09 - 11:05 AM
Mr Happy 08 Oct 09 - 10:43 AM
Royston 08 Oct 09 - 10:41 AM
Riginslinger 08 Oct 09 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 09 - 10:03 AM
Royston 08 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM
Mr Happy 08 Oct 09 - 09:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 09 - 03:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 09 - 02:53 AM
akenaton 08 Oct 09 - 01:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Oct 09 - 06:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Oct 09 - 06:08 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:46 PM

Immigration is too high everywhere. There are just too many people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:49 AM

Guest, your "support" is not welcome.
Go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:01 AM

It would appear you are becoming very popular Richard on a number of social websites.

Richard please stop attacking Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:53 AM

Yes , that would be Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:13 AM

You don't think that attacking human rights is malodorous?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:05 AM

You are telling us that there are some people out there who agree with you.
Thank you Richard, but I think we all realised that.
IPPR seem to hold a more extreme view that there should be no limits or controls at all. They are certainly very critical of the weak and inneffective points based system.
But there is nothing malodorous about either group.
Why must you people always try to smear anyone who disagrees with you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:13 PM

"There has been a lot of irresponsible scaremongering about immigration in recent years which was based on the false assumption that high net migration into the UK was inevitable for years to come. As our recent report on re-migration showed, migration flows go both ways and we now need to be thinking about how our managed migration systems can continue to attract and retain the migrants we need to help our economy to recover and grow."


A different viewpoint from yours Keith. I pointed out before that the House of Lords report missed a fundamental trick in its analysis.

Source? The Institute for Public Policy Research.

http://www.ippr.org.uk/pressreleases/?id=3694

Given the rather malodorous views of Immigration Watch in general, I ahve a preference in policy terms.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 06:45 PM

What, in this context is a "non-British" immigrant?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:57 AM

This scheme does not limit work-related migration in any way, and is not intended to. The Australian system which it is said to resemble is, in fact, entirely different; it starts with a limit and selects within that total. By contrast, Tier One is entirely open ended. For Tier Two, employers are supposed to make sure that there is no satisfactory candidate within the European Union but this test is notoriously difficult to police. Nor does it apply if an occupation has been declared a "shortage occupation", nor if the migrant arrives as an intra company transfer.

4. There is no evidence of the economic benefits of large scale immigration.
As unemployment climbs towards three million, the whole justification for a massive system for economic migration comes into question. With a workforce of 30 million, the only long-term answer is to train and retrain British workers. The CBI themselves acknowledged this in their evidence to the House of Lords [2]. Furthermore, the whole concept of skills shortages is dubious, particularly over the medium term. Professor Metcalf, Chair of the government's own Migration Advisory Committee told the House of Lords Economic Committee that "the whole notion of shortages was a bit of a slippery concept" (Q557), since, over time, wage increases should deal with the shortages. This scheme assumes that there is significant economic benefit to the host country from large-scale immigration. However, House of Lords report in April 2007 came to the opposite conclusion [3].


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:55 AM

The Points Based System (PBS) is not designed to limit the number of people settling in the UK. Therefore it is completely unlike the Australian system.
According to Government figures, the PBS would have cut net immigration in 2007 by 8%, when a reduction of 75% is required to stop the UKs population hitting 70 million in 2028.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/BriefingPaper/document/162


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:47 AM

no Keith, all your 2007 projections, for whatever reason, are now meaningless. Your fears and arguments have no substance.

Aside from the fall off in numbers, your projections make no account of the 2008 points based immigration restrictions, as those restrictions were not existent in the years on which your hysteria is based.

At worst a concerned person could say 'I wa worried about immigration but thankfully it has reduced. We don't know if the points system will address our concerns in the event arrivals increase; we shall have to monitor the situation.'

What the debate does not need is people like you stirring things and upping the temperature with out of date information twisted into half lies and hysteria.

The truth now, is 'wait and see', no projections are possible, the old ones are worthless.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 02:57 AM

No Royston.
I listed ALL the components of immigration referred to in the report.
It was YOU who singled out non British immigration in order to call me racist.
Despicable, but I am not angry.
It tells me I have knocked down all your arguments, and that is all you have left.
I have shown you that immigration continues as high as ever and your drop in net immigration is due to an unsustainable, one off surge in emigration.
Even if, Heaven forbid, the recession deepens or other catastrophes occur, that surge will end.

Its main components are returning EU migrants and there are a limited number of those, and people bringing forward plans to retire abroad.
There will certainly be far less of those in the future.

The projections are still valid. The best we can hope for is a delay of a year or so.

Your ludicrous claim that immigration has now ceased to be an issue of concern has been shown to be groundless, and all you can do in reply is to wave your arms and shout racist.
A posturing fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:12 PM

Now we're getting to the truth of Keith A, it seems.

I thought that you and your friends were only concerned about NET immigration. You said you were not racist, just worried about total population growth.

Now that you agree that net immigration is reducing dramatically you still arn't happy. NOW you point to the problem being not enough reduction in the number of non-british immigrants.

So it's the wrong type of immigration is it Keith? Says a lot, that does.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/mig0809.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:33 PM

I thought that might be what you were getting at, but I also expected better of you.
This is what the ONS 27th August said about immigration.

512,000 people immigrated to the UK, little change on 527,000 in the year to
December 2007. Immigration of non-British citizens was 441,000, also little changed
from the previous year. Immigration of citizens of the A8 Accession countries (those
countries of central and eastern Europe that joined the European Union in 2004)
declined by 28 per cent from 109,000 to 79,000 over the same period, but this
decline is not statistically significant at the 95 per cent confidence level.
Got that?
"little change" to immigration
Immigration of non British "also little changed"
Immigration from accession countries "decline is not statistically significant"

What happened was such a huge surge in people LEAVING that NET immigration dropped 44%
What happened last year to cause that?
Maybe the banking collapse and the worst recession in living memory.

So that is your great hope for the future. That the recession will get so much worse every year that it drives away enough people to make room for the continuing huge rate of immigration.

And you call me a scarmonger!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:14 PM

Keith there are no lengths you won't go to in order to avoid the truth is there?

'about' a 50pc drop. 209,000 down to 118,000. The second stat was down 43 percent. The next stat was about 46k down to about 26k. Well done. Now have you anything of substance to say?

I prefer your nitpicking to your imaginary arguments about contemporary issues which you base on 2yr old numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM

Royston, here are links to your posts.
thread.cfm?threadid=123889&messages=402#2734032
thread.cfm?threadid=123889&messages=402#2734154
You made them on 29th Sept and we have already talked all about the links in them.

There is no reference to a 50% drop in immigration.
You must have imagined it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:39 PM

In fact, it is as I said some time ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

Keith

Now I know you are winding me up.

In a discussion that you entitled IS UK immigration too high, please try to stick to contemporary data.

Otherwise call it WAS UK immigration too high.

None of Coleman's 2007 projections.

None of your BBC 12 months to June 2008; which is now 16 to 28 months out of date.

Now, 2009 nearly 2010 please.

My post below contains UK border agency figures for Q2 2009 against the same period 2008. 50 percent fall in immigration.

The link to the source was in the original post on the BNP Conundrum thread. I can't recreate it on a blackberry so go look yourself as you obviously ignored the truth first time round.

On the same day and the same thread i posted a link to a national audit report of August 2009 that held that the border agency were making excellent progress on asylum decisions and removals.

That's August 2009 Keith. Not any other dubious selection by you from history.

You are a fool and a waste of time. I'm definitely tending toward's Azizi's view fo you as something altogether more sinister.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:14 AM

I can not find where they said that Royston.
Link please.
The BBC piece is from this year, and the figures go up to Sept 2008.

Now you read extracts of my extracts.

290,000 rise in overseas-born UK residents, which hit 6.5 million in the year to June 2008."
" and the "main pressure was now immigration from outside the EU"

right to settle in the UK was 145,965, an increase of 17% on the previous year.

Asylum applications were 10% higher in 2008 at 25,670 "

grants of settlement are up 17%



"The asylum statistics are ominous, as they show the first signs of a system sliding back into the chaos of previous years. Applications are up 10%, decisions are down 11%, and the number waiting for an initial decision has risen by a third. "


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:37 AM

Keith, read please.

2009 figures 50% lower than 2008.

Source UK Border agency.

All your arguments are based on projections from 2006/7 figures and are therefore now meaningless.

Discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:31 AM

Welcome back Royston.
Before you left you made the extraordinary statement,"the TRUTH NOW is that immigration is falling through the statistical floor and is not exactly a live issue either NOW or in the FUTURE, based on present levels."
I asked you twice to give a source or any credible person who agreed, but you have chosen not to.
We can draw our own conclusions.

In your latest post you forgot to provide links.
Did you not want us to see the full story?

Now you ask me about Migrationwatch and their views on the current situation.
Here are some extracts from a BBC piece from February this year.

"...the biggest decline - 21% - coming from new EU nations such as Poland.

But figures also show a 290,000 rise in overseas-born UK residents, which hit 6.5 million in the year to June 2008."

"There are no official figures on the outflow of migrants to accession countries but Sir Andrew Green, of pressure group Migration Watch, said the flow from and to Eastern Europe would "come into balance before very long" and the "main pressure was now immigration from outside the EU" which unlike EU migration the government could control. "

"Other figures released earlier reveal the number of people from outside the EU granted the right to settle in the UK was 145,965, an increase of 17% on the previous year.

This was largely down to an increase in the number of people allowed to stay because of their job, which returned to 2005 levels.

Asylum applications were 10% higher in 2008 at 25,670 "

Commenting on the figures, shadow immigration minister Damian Green, for the Conservatives, said: "Even at a time when short-term applications are falling because of the dreadful state of the British economy, grants of settlement are up 17% mainly because of foreign workers who have come here and decided to stay.

"This shows how foolish Gordon Brown's promise of British jobs for British workers was.

"The asylum statistics are ominous, as they show the first signs of a system sliding back into the chaos of previous years. Applications are up 10%, decisions are down 11%, and the number waiting for an initial decision has risen by a third. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7906277.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 03:09 PM

For the time being Keith, here are some facts from one of my earlier posts that you ran away from.

Even on a 2009 -v- 2008 comparison, inward immigration is down 50%. As we already established that the peak year was 2004, but it remained at similar levels through 2005/6/7 before falling, the present situation is nothing like any of your doom-mongering BIASED FORECASTS that were cast on 2006/2007 numbers.

When will you learn Keith?

More will follow when I have time.
-------------------------------------

And what is immigration down to now?

Annual immigration statistics for 2008 and quarterly immigration figures for April to June 2009, covering migration from Eastern Europe, asylum applications and removals and voluntary departures, were published by the Home Office on 27 August 2009.

The figures show that work applications from the eight accession countries have continued to fall in 2009. In the second quarter of this year there were 26,150 applications from workers in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Estonia and the Czech Republic - down from 46,070 in the same period in 2008.

The number of Bulgarian and Romanians applying for accession worker cards also continues to fall. There were 580 applications in the second quarter of 2009, a fall of 43 per cent, compared to the same quarter in 2008.

The Office of National Statistics (ONS) published figures earlier the same day that show net-migration fell to 118,000 in 2008, from 209,000 in 2007, the lowest since the eight accession countries joined the EU in 2004.

In the first half of 2009, 30,435 people illegally in the United Kingdom were removed or voluntarily departed from the country, including 2,550 foreign prisoners. The latest figures also confirm that a total 67,980 people were removed or voluntarily departed in 2008.

Individuals seeking asylum in the United Kingdom has remained broadly at the same level over the past four years. It is less than a third of the level when it peaked in 2002. Applications for asylum in the second quarter of 2009 were 6,045 compared with 5,830 in quarter two 2008. The Home Office is now concluding 60 per cent of new asylum cases within six months.

Numbers reducing dramatically with magnificent progress on removals. Keith might even consider reducing his medication at this rate.

Source - UK Border Agency


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 09:05 AM

I haven't forgotten you Keith. More's the pity. I've been working in the Czech Republic this week and in Liverpool now with little free time.

Save me some trouble, please. Do you still claim that all your, and Migrationwatch's, forecasts for worst case scenario - all based on 2006 and 2007 figures are still valid now? In spite of the 2008 points based restrictions on migrations and on the 2008 end of the economic new world order.

If you accept that the world now is not the same as the one that generated your paranoid figures then I will not have to go quite so far in proving you to be a blinkered liar and fantasist.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 03:12 AM

The Office Of National Statistics.
What do they know about anything?
A bunch of overqualified statiaticians, demographers , sociologists etc.
Employed by all governments to provide them with the facts on which to base their policies and to answer parliamentary questions.
Universally respected by all political parties.
Not nearly as impressive as the sources used by your side of the argument.
What were they again?
Oh yes. Royston's imagination.
And that was it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

""1I have given impeccable sources for every statement I have made.""

Impeccable according to WHO?

A Whitehall appointed government quango, a man whose activities are inextricably linked with an organisation which has a very dodgy past, if not present, and YOU.

Hardly impeccable at all then!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 07:07 AM

Before you go Mr Happy,

1I have given impeccable sources for every statement I have made.

2I said immigration is the main factor in current population increase and it is.

3It was you who raised the issue of fertility.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 06:39 AM

Keith A of Hertford,

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse, but my use of the word 'only' rather than 'main' or even 'greatest', seems somewhat irrelevant given that casual examination of the gist of the statement is the same.

In addition, all my comments in that specific post were clearly referring to the Guardian article which doesn't contain any mention of fertility comparisons.

************

I feel from your latest responses that it will be completely futile to try to continue any discourse on these topics, as you seem determined to carry on in your deluded perceptions and instead of contributing any reasoned, balanced evidence to support your opinions, I'll withdraw from the 'debate'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 06:23 AM

Overall fertility of foreign-born women is higher than that of UK-born women.
http://iussp2009.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=93139


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 05:42 AM

Mr Happy,
"your assertion that immigration was the only cause of population increase."

Not true.
I did not assert that.
I said it was the main cause and ONS agrees.
ONS also says that immigrant fertility is higher than existing population. Would you like a link?

The projections are made by government experts on the best and fullest data available. Projections of current trend.
You did not like the projection for continued high immigration.
You slated me for not quoting the nicer projections for a future with lower immigration. Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 05:07 AM

KAoH,


'I could accuse you of pushing a half truth for not pointing out that our rising fertility is itself due to immigrants who have a much higher fertility7 than the existing population.'

*************

I do resent that you've accused me of 'half truths', when after all, I've merely reproduced here a sentence from your own link to the Guardian article http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/23/immigrationandpublicservices.immigration, which indicated a relevant response to your assertion that immigration was the only cause of population increase.



Anyone was able, as was I, of clicking that link & reading the complete passage or did you want me to copy/paste the whole thing here ?

Furthermore, in that same article, there's no mention at all of relative fertility levels of any particular group of people.


Might your accusation statement above be in reality based upon, as you've stated elsewhere in this debate, your own observations?

'They breed like rabbits, y'know!!'



**************


'You also accuse me of not posting the projections for low and zero immigration because they are much nicer than the projection for continued high immigration.


BUT MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT WE WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER FUTURE IF WE COULD ONLY ACHIEVE A LOWER RATE OF IMMIGRATION!!! '

****************

Possibly, you don't understand that all of the statistical info in that passage is all based upon projections.

Now anyone with even a little nous would discern that 'projections' are not the same as 'facts'

Also, since you've shouted in BIG CAPITALS, you've proved that your own underlying agenda is that you in fact wish to restrict access for anyone wanting to migrate to UK, for dubious reasons of supposed detriment to this country.

Here's a couple of comments from the Guardian article which, I feel, represent a more balanced view:

'Sir Andrew Green, the chairman of the Migrationwatch campaign group, said the levels of immigration predicted would change Britain "irrevocably and permanently", urging ministers to take action now to avoid "very serious" consequences for the country.

Sir Simon Milton, the chairman of the Local Government Association, said: "Migration is benefiting the country, generating in total over £40bn every year. '


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:11 AM

Royston, I am still looking forward to some support for your statement, "the TRUTH NOW is that immigration is falling through the statistical floor and is not exactly a live issue either NOW or in the FUTURE, "

Perhaps you could find a half decently qualified demographer, or some people from parliament, or some official government statistics, you know, the sort of stuff I have routinely provided to support my case.

Obviously that will be difficult if you are totally wrong, as when you thought that immigration peaked some time in mid 20th Century.

You have never actually provided any supporting evidence.
Why is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:38 AM

Don, you seem to be saying that because there are such people as racists we must never discuss the problems of immigration.
I do not hold that view, though the main parties actually do.

BNP will know of the government survey that found 79% of the population want immigration cut.
That a few folkies do too will not further there cause very much.
They also know and have access to Migrationwatch and Balanced Migration whose views I have been posting.
So no extra ammuntion for them there either.

I was not just invited, but challenged by Royston to discuss immigration.
I am sorry if that is regretted now.

Some of you attacked BNP and set yourselves up as their enemies.
(Bravely I think. Fair play to you all.)
That is why they are enjoying the spectacle of you all vainly trying to deny an obvious truth, i.e. that there are perfectly valid and respectable arguments for reducing immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:28 AM

Mr Happy you accuse me of not pointing out that
The Office for National Statistics said the surge was caused by an unprecedented combination of trends - rising fertility, rising life expectancy and rising inward migration.

I could accuse you of pushing a half truth for not pointing out that our rising fertility is itself due to immigrants who have a much higher fertility7 than the existing population.

You also accuse me of not posting the projections for low and zero immigration because they are much nicer than the projection for continued high immigration.
BUT MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT WE WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER FUTURE IF WE COULD ONLY ACHIEVE A LOWER RATE OF IMMIGRATION!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:38 PM

""Please identify specifically anything you consider misleading.

BNP are thugs and they will behave thugishly.
Why be angry with me?
""


Mr Happy already identified the point at which you emphasised the facet which supported your claim, but ignored the other half of that statement, which would have brought the whole int balance, but would, at the sme time have weakened your POV.

That is evidence of bias, and brings the credibility of your stance into dispute.

As to my comment about the BNP, whether you realise it or not, you are advancing their argument quite vehemently, and giving them cause to rejoice.

They believe you are proving their argument, and unfortunately they will have ammunition supplied by you which they will delight in using, out of context to show British Folkies catually supporting the BNP.

That reflects on the whole forum, so why wouldn't I be angry with you?

I know that you are absolutely NOT a racist, but they will claim you as a brother, and others will believe it too.

I just wish we could bury this thread, and discuss the issues elsewhere.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:07 PM

Don, those were very large documents.
No one would read the whole thing.
It is usual to extract the relevant piece and provide the link.
That is what I did.
I deny anything misleading.
Please identify specifically anything you consider misleading.

BNP are thugs and they will behave thugishly.
Why be angry with me?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 02:41 PM

""Nit picking quibles about minor items hardly answers my case that the current unprecedented level of immigration raises some legitimate issues and concerns, and that many well informed people think it should be reduced.

Do you object to any of that, if so exactly what please?
""

One man's nit picking is another man's deliberate misinformation.

Either quote the whole article or don't use it at all. There's no brownie points for cutting out what disproves your assertions, because somebody will always catch you out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Given that I am the one being harrassed by the BNP, and YOU are apparently their new champion, I think most here will know just WHO is the dangerous one.

As a role model, you would make a good greengrocer.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:05 AM

Royston, please post some evidence for your extraordinary statement, "immigration is falling through the statistical floor and is not exactly a live issue either NOW or in the FUTURE"

mr happy balanced migration is a small and easy to navigate site, unlike ONS which took hours to search!
http://www.balancedmigration.com/ourcase.php

You will easily find what you want.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:43 AM

I find I omitted to insert the URL for Migration Watch which was actually the site I wanted you to give the requested info from [it being your primary referent in your first posts.]

***************

'.......many well informed people(?) think it should be reduced'

In order to become informed, its best if you examine material from a variety of sources, not just the ones which reflect your prior assumptions.

*************

According to Eurostat, Some EU member states are currently receiving large-scale immigration:

for instance Spain, where the economy has created more than half of all the new jobs in the EU over the past five years

Spain is the most favoured European destination for Britons leaving the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration


*************

My observation is: immigration looks like good news for Spain!


So why not for here too?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:41 AM

Yes Keith, the talk NOW is of reducing expenditure the same way that the TRUTH NOW is that immigration is falling through the statistical floor and is not exactly a live issue either NOW or in the FUTURE, based on present levels.

You keep talking up a problem whose existence was questionable based on your selective cherry-picking of 2006/2007 projections. At the time your forecasts were made we were in a miraculous economic boom and there was plenty of money and resources to make the social investments I have been talking about, and plenty of jobs for the incomers. All that was missing was the political will.

If politicians had cared one small fraction as much about PEOPLE as they have cared about BANKS & BANKERS, we could have solved all of our social infrastructure problems.

NOW that there is nothing to support your scaremongering, you should just shut up. Thet only people NOT laughing at you are the BNP clones and ringinlsinger who is somewhat to the right of Herman Goering.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:14 AM

"...people are quick to see the problems - demands on housing, health, schools and issues around wages, but staggeringly slow to see solutions - like..."

             Placing a moratorium on immigration and deporting the louts who are unwanted now.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:03 AM

Royston the current rate of providing housing, services and infrastructure has been falling further and further BEHIND the needs of our rapidly rising population, and if you offer that as a solution to people suffering real need right now they will laugh at you (if you are lucky) and you will deserve it.

If you kept up with the news you would know that all the talk now is of REDUCING expenditure.

Your "solutions" are a joke , so what is your next big idea?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM

Quite right, Mr. Happy

Don't hold your breath for any original thinking from people - just more selective cut and paste snippets that suit their view of the world from some biased sources.

You see people are quick to see the problems - demands on housing, health, schools and issues around wages, but staggeringly slow to see solutions - like building more of that which we are short of (with the tax revenue from productive workers) and strengthening legislation to protect minimum wage and low-paid workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM

Mr. Happy, you specifically asked me to find figures from Office of National Statistics.
If you do not agree with any of them, you should take it up with ONS not me.

Nit picking quibles about minor items hardly answers my case that the current unprecedented level of immigration raises some legitimate issues and concerns, and that many well informed people think it should be reduced.

Do you object to any of that, if so exactly what please?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 09:32 AM

KAoH,

Thanks for your new links, none of which, I note, are from your 1st referent, The Balanced Migration site.

I've examined all of your links & find ambiguities, contradictions & omissions from included info.

Ifll not list them all right now, but will do so if necessary.


Herefs a contradiction to your assertion that immigration is the greatest cause of population growth in UK :

Guardian article: [about population increase in UK] http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/23/immigrationandpublicservices.immigration

The Office for National Statistics said the surge was caused by an unprecedented combination of trends - rising fertility, rising life expectancy and rising inward migration.


Herefs a typical example of an omission;

From here

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/pdf/1172133.pdf

You cited this excerpt:

Net migration

Of the standard population variants, the net migration variants have the largest impact on the household projections, reflecting the size of the variant assumptions.

The high migration variant increases the number of households by 33,000 per year between 2006 and 2031 compared to the principal projection. Under the high migration variant there is an increase of 810,000 households over the 25 year projection period, leading to 28.6 million households in 2031, compared to 27.8 million in the principal projection. Over a third of the additional households are one person households, whilst a further 29 per cent are married couple households.


But you omitted this excerpt


The low migration variant has a slightly smaller impact on household numbers in absolute terms than the high migration variant, resulting in an average of almost 31,000 fewer households per year between 2006 and 2031 relative to the principal projection. Under the low migration variant there is a decrease of 770,000 households over the 25 year projection period, leading to 27.1 million households in 2031, compared to 27.8 million in the principal projection. Just under a third of the reduction in households is one person households and a further third are married couple households.

The zero net migration variant projection assumes zero net migration in the population at all ages. This does not give a pure measure of zero net migration on household formation as the composition of the inward and outward migrants and their propensity to form households will be different, but it illustrates the extent to which the migration assumptions impact on household numbers over and above natural change in the population.

******************

Seems to me youfre just picking out the bits that suit your hypotheses, rather than presenting the whole picture


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:06 AM

Don, never mind the future, the issues I raised on health, housing, schools, employment etc, are current.
Government and employers benefit from lower production costs and wages.
The middle classes enjoy a cheap supply of domestics and nannies.
The working classes get none of the benefits and all of the downside.
They are told that they only complain because they are racist.
In the absence of anyone else who will listen they turn to BNP, who rapidly turn them into racists.

You and people like you in politics are the problem Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 02:53 AM

Don, Governments have to be seen to be looking ahead and planning for our future.
That is why they employ highly qualified experts in sciences such as demography to spend their professional working lives studying the official figures and other hard evidence to assess current trends and project them forward.

The conclusion reached by the top experts in the land is that issues relating to immigration are most likely to become more severe in the near future.

On what evidence do you base your opinion that if we carry on as we are everything will be alright, and why should we listen to you and not them?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:31 AM

Well done Keith, It seems most here are beginning to get the message,
Richard's advice to Don is particularly pertinent.

To sum up, the answer seems to be....keep calm, listen to what other people are saying, whether you agree with them or not; and deal with the ISSUES raised.....Shouting at the labels proves nothing, other than the intellectual weakness of those doing the shouting.

I hope this thread marks a change in attitude here...a move away from the lynch mob mentality and towards common sense on all controversial issues.

We should remember that we are all human beings, the labels hung on us are meaningless, just another trick to divide and "organise" society.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:10 PM

Guest Richard,

Mind your own bloody business!

Clear?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:08 PM

""Net migration
Of the standard population variants, the net migration variants have the largest impact on the household projections, reflecting the size of the variant assumptions. The high migration variant increases the number of households by 33,000 per year between 2006 and 2031 compared to the principal projection. Under the high migration variant there is an increase of 810,000 households over the 25 year projection period, leading to 28.6 million households in 2031, compared to 27.8
""

Keith, these are projections, and like any other projections carry an unknowable variability factor, depending on the accuracy or otherwise of the parameters chosen from which calculations are made.

Or to put it another way, guesses of an unfathomable degree of wildness. You can't adduce ANY really credible conclusion using them. Only governments are daft enough to try.

The accuracy of the figures suggested will not be known until 2031, by which time (hopefully) you will have tired of looking for more guesses, and moved on to other things.

Don T.


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