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BS: UK immigration too high?

Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM
Tug the Cox 20 Oct 09 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 09 - 02:26 AM
Tug the Cox 19 Oct 09 - 07:57 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Oct 09 - 06:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 09 - 02:54 PM
Tug the Cox 19 Oct 09 - 02:29 PM
Riginslinger 19 Oct 09 - 12:42 PM
Tug the Cox 19 Oct 09 - 11:47 AM
Riginslinger 19 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,erbert 19 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM
Richard Bridge 19 Oct 09 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 09 - 03:20 AM
Tug the Cox 18 Oct 09 - 07:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge still fighting with the Dell 18 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 09 - 06:33 PM
Tug the Cox 15 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM
The Sandman 15 Oct 09 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Oct 09 - 12:15 PM
Tug the Cox 15 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 07:28 AM
Tug the Cox 15 Oct 09 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 06:36 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 04:39 AM
Royston 15 Oct 09 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 03:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 09 - 02:15 AM
Tug the Cox 14 Oct 09 - 08:57 PM
Tug the Cox 14 Oct 09 - 08:42 PM
Royston 14 Oct 09 - 06:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 09 - 05:30 PM
Royston 14 Oct 09 - 05:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM
Royston 14 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM
Royston 14 Oct 09 - 02:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM
Royston 14 Oct 09 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 09 - 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM

Tug, you actually said"...the places with the densest populations are also the richest."
Sorry for misunderstanding but I am sure I was not alone.

(Actually, nobody else is probably reading any of this.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 08:44 AM

the latest is Tug's overcrowding brings wealth theory,

Oh dear, no wonder exasperation is sometimes evident in these pages. I said nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out that some of the areas of gretest density were amomg the most affluent ( as are some of the poorerst. Indicating that simplistic arguments really have no place in seriou debate. Should have known better.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 02:26 AM

This is a very one sided debate.
You people make up theories without any evidence, the latest is Tug's overcrowding brings wealth theory, and demand I produce all the figures!
When I knock it down, you just forget it and make up another.
Tug, this article is about density. It cites very recent ONS figures. I can find a direct link if I must.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

Tug, there are other factors in the housing crisis, e.g. family breakup, but the main cause is population outstripping provision and immigration provides 70% of our population increase (same article).

Richard, the 2007 ONS projections were based on the most recent figures available. We have just seen that those immigration figures were a serious UNDERESTIMATE, making the projections even worse.
If the recession effect is only temporary like all the previous ones, those projections ARE still valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 07:57 PM

Figures , plese Keith, on population densities for netherlands and UK.62 p per person, whatever that means, is still a benefit. What evidence have you that schooling and housing problems are caused ( rather than exacerbated by) immigration, There are a lot of other contenders, and there are still more unoccupied properties than homeless people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 06:27 PM

Keith, the 2002 projections were not those that you were earlier defending, but the higher 2007 ones. To imply (as you do) that they were one and the same seems erm - go on, you supply the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 02:54 PM

Tug, the government has calculated the economic benefit of immigration to amount to 62 pence per citizen, which hardly compensates for the problems that have arisen in school provision, housing crisis, health care, social unrest etc.
We have overtaken Holland in population density. USA Germany and France have much lower densities than us.
Bangla Desh is higher.
Perhaps you could develope your proposition with some evidence and comparisons.

Overall, the UK's population will grow by almost 2 million over the next five years, even allowing for the recent, perhaps temporary, fall in immigration. How will we provide homes, schools, hospitals, houses,.....?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 02:29 PM

Oh yes, they do, as is is the case in the UK. However the 'our overcrowded little island' argument is bankrupt at every level.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 12:42 PM

But the resources would have to be coming from some place else.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 11:47 AM

What no-one has yet owned up to is that the places with the densest populations are also the richest. Sheck out the netherlands. For our neck of the woods, try channel islands, compare population density and GDP


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM

Probably the trick is to get the immigrants to do it!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM

yeah, yeah, yeah, constantly blame immigration for the ills of society..

We live in too small a place for too many people of any kind.

When will all of us be intelligent and responsible enough
to practise voluntary birth and population control.
No more than 2 kids per family,
and as many adults as possible convinced of the positive benefits
of a lifestyle opting out of parenthood.

Well thats what me and the mrs think and decided to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM

Re migrationwatch, the very latest official statistics show that all their predictions have been accurate, and their critics wrong.
Take a look.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/pressReleases/19-October-2009


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM

Richard, it is Royston who keeps saying that economic growth leads to immigration, not me.

My point is that a recession causes a surge in emigration, resulting in a temporary dip in net immigration.
This is the fourth time in a row it has happened.
What are the odds of that being happenstance?


Are the "other factors inteneded to effect immigration" the new points based system?
How could that cause emigration??
Remember the latest ONS figures showed "little change" in gross immigration.
The new system is having little or no effect on it.

But wait.
Perhaps Royston will now tell us how he knows that this decline in net immigration is not going to be brief like all the others.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 04:03 AM

Keith, read what I said. If economic growth led to immigration then the change in immigration would always follow (by a constant-ish margin) the previous change in the economy. It doesn't. I gave the detail above.

Imagine you are investigating the effect of applying flame to a beaker of water. If it gets hot before the flame is applied, or cools while the flame is being applied, the heating effect is being caused by something else.

Are you not aware of the well known happenstance correlation between the number of storks and the birthrate, wherever it was?

And do you not see that there are other factors intended to affect immigration that will be in place when (and if) we climb out of this recession?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 03:20 AM

I refute both racism and xenophobia.
All the so called examples quoted against me were just objective and rational arguments for a lower rate of immigration.
Putting those arguments is my role in this debate.
It does not mean that I am obsessed with anything, any more than someone on the other side.

Of course it is much easier to make personal attacks than to counter my arguments.
Talk about the issue and not about me.

Richard, explain your statistical objection or stop saying you have one.
The FACT that each of the last 3 recessions produced a temporary dip in net immigration is good evidence that it might again.
I am not a statistician, but I am a physicist and know that that graph would be regarded as empirical proof of a relationship.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 07:51 PM

Xenophobia is not the same as racism. Racial prejudice is not the same as racism. A rule of thumb is that racism is action, based on racial prejudice, taken that actually detracts from the life chances of others.

   many immigrants are of the same 'race' that indigenous british people are ( caucasian) some white ( eastern europeans) some non-white ( people from the Indian sub-continent.)

   Whilst Keiths postings do not bespeak racism ( whether he is racist or not) they certainly give succour to those of racist tendencies.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM

""Xenophobia in this context would have to be a fear of foreign immigrants and thus racism.""

Xenophobia, in any context, is fear of foreigners, whether they be in England or Abroad.

It is independent of their location, and therefor the correct descriptor in this case is bias against immigrants.

Racism may not be the appropriate single word for this, but it will have to do until somebody invents a better one.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge still fighting with the Dell
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM

I don't think I have said any of those things.

1. I regret to way that your obsession with immigration is self-describing.
2. Your concerns lead repeatedly back to the worry that immigrants are different, are not "British". That is racism. I see no indication anywhere that you would be worried if white English emigres returned "home".
3.   I am not concerned by immigration, as I perceive it.

No, you have assumed that the decline in immigration is temporary despite the fact that there is very little actual co-incidence (that is to say occurrence at the same time), and that the world of statistics is full of happenstance correlations. I am NOT going to get out my old stats texts and see what degree of confidence there is to an alleged relationship between economic growth and net immigration. If you want to show that there is a statistical correlation, you do the arithmetic. You will still have to show a causative relationship.

Your position, Keith, boils down to wanting to keep foreigners out. Otherwise you would be wanting to address breeding habits. But you show no signs of concern about white English breeding habits: only those of the people you don't want here.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM

I sense that this thread is drawing to a close.
I did not expect that we would agree an answer to the question in the title, but I hoped that we would hear members' different answers to it.
I had strong reservations about entering the debate, as I said early in the "conundrum" thread.
I expected, correctly, that others could not discuss this without resorting to name calling.
Most people sensibly stayed away, and I became the only person putting the case against.

Looking back, I would summarise the stages in the other side's arguments thus;


1. We would really like to discuss immigration with you Keith.

2. We are having the discussion, but if you describe any concerns related to the issue of immigration, you are a racist.

3. We concede that there are concerns, but you must not describe them now because we think immigration is now declining, and if you disagree, you are a liar.

We now see that there is every reason to believe that the decline is temporary, and there is no evidence that it will continue.

I am very interested to know where they will go next.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 06:33 PM

Richard i think coincides is a good description.
Tug, Xenophobia in this context would have to be a fear of foreign immigrants and thus racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

Conciously or unconsciously you have judged that anyone who expresses any concern about high immigration is a racist

Oh Keith, please. You always ,reasonably, ask others for chapter and verse. Nowhere have I called you racist. Xenophobic suggestions are something else. Of course my profile of you, based on limited info was inaccurate. Most people who ask for their communication to be profiled, however, are not asking to find out who they 'are', but how they come across to others. I think that you have ample evidence from posters here and elsewhere, that you consistently come across in a certain way, whether you intend it or not. If this concerns you, you are able to change your style of communication without changing your enduring commitments.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM

The word co-incide is not wholly accurate, but further the proposition you advance is not exactly that which you previously advanced.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:51 PM

no,I believe it is not too high,we are in Europe,Europeans should be able to move anywhere they like.
furthermore that should apply to all nations everywhere,If I want to emigrate to the USA I should be able to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 02:47 PM

Richard , I would be interested in a lawyer's opinion, not on that, but on the quality of the "proof" offered by Royston that I am a racist liar.
On the other, I am sure you are using a clever lawyer's trick to hide a simple truth.
The graph shows a steady long term rise in net migration, with three dips that coincide with each of the previous three recessions.
We just need Royston to explain why this one is going to be different.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM

Fascinating Tug, but that is not me at all.
We should meet sometime.
Conciously or unconsciously you have judged that anyone who expresses any concern about high immigration is a racist, and fitted in all subsequent evidence with your preconception.
You have misjudged me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:15 PM

I have now looked at the data you suggest Keith. It is from ImmigrationWatch so may or may not be objective. However, while it looks arguably like a tracker effect from 1990 to 2007 (and not more recently) the immigration is bi-directionally countercyclical from 84 to 90, and untracking in 71/2, 73/4, 79/80, 81/82.

That could well be a happenstance correlation at most, like the legendary case of stork population and live births in Finland (sorry, I don't know the date but it is in all the student textbooks on statistics, or at least it was when I was younger).

Off the top of my head, what would the figures be if you tried to correlate (a) government in power and years from change with (b) net migration?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM

I'm making guesses. It is not only what people choose to say....questions of style and selection give clues to motivation. These are reasonable easy to spot in verbal interaction, but can also be evidenced in analysis of written output.

Prejudice is pre-judging. I am judging, but only after reading many of your posts in many threads. Most recently a typically misleading post to the 'England 'thread.
   Were I asked to provide a profile, derived from your writing, I would certailly conclude that they bespoke thinly veiled xenophobia,and that non-white immigration mworried youn more than white anglophone immigration.

You clearly DO have views, why not just state them openly, rather than conceal them (not very well) behind what is IMHO, a pose of objectivity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM

And why do you assume my objectivity is a pose Tug?

You are making extreme judgements on my character without any evidence.
That is called prejudice Tug.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:28 AM

So What?
Its xenophobic for me to say it, but not Royston?

We were dicussing issues relating to immigration.
Which of those am I forbiden to select without earning the X word?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:20 AM

Thanks Tug.
Royston agrees with me on the first quote.

So what?

Lastly, "these issues" were issues to do with immigration.

Indeed, and the selection of material, and the deliberate pose of objective neutrality lead me, unmistakenl;y, to see them as an example of thinly disguised xenophobia.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:36 AM

Obviously the wrong link Richard.
I would not dispute your 3 views.

The last three recessions are 1975-1976,1981-1982 and 1993.
They produced larger drops in net immigration than the current one has.
It has always been temporary, with no effect on the long term trend.

Royston is sure that this one is somehow going to be different, but he has not yet told us why.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

The ONS data)if I have correctly identified the link to which you refer, Keith) only appears to go back to 2000. Which are the three recessions to which you refer?

It seems to me that the present and past year's circumstances are unprecedented apart (arguably, although the causes were very different) from the Thatcher-Reagan recession (which was deliberately engineered) and the "Great Depression" which came from a different type of bubble speculation and was affected by ignorant pre-Keynesian economics.

My present view is that:

1. there is no reason to envisage an upturn in net immigration from A8 countries (their economies will benefit with other EU economies from the Brown-Darling-Obama measures, so long as the French and Germans do not sabotage it, and if they do they will sabotage us as well)

2. there is no reason to envisage an upturn in net immigration from third world countries: the points system should see to that (but if "high flyers" come that will be economically beneficial).

3. there is no reason to envisage a flood of asylum seekers: the removal process has been made more effective as has the detection and prevention of arrival, and more effective "first port of call" enforcement is also in the pipeline.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 04:39 AM

You say "If for instance we go through a period where net migration halves from the projected levels, then the remaining progression of the trend is altered irrevocably"

We have gone through 3 previous such periods.
Every recession.
And they did NOT change the trend.
Just temporary dips.
If that is true for this recession, then the projections ARE still valid, and you certainly can not call someone a racist liar for pointing that out.

Every recession has produced a temporary surge in emigration, which soon ended and did not effect the long term trend.
Tell us why you think this one will be any different Royston


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 04:13 AM

Keith, we have reached the limit of your intelligence. Unless you can improve, and quickly, there will be no point carrying on with this.

If you extrapolate a trend line to a future conclusion, then the projection of that line is only valid if the progression of the contributing data series remain unchanged.

If for instance we go through a period where net migration halves from the projected levels, then the remaining progression of the trend is altered irrevocably. The longer and more sharp the deviation from trend, the more significant is the change in future outcome.

Now you really have to think this one through Keith. Carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:33 AM

Royston, re your fith and final of my posts.
It was a straight reply to mr Happy who said,

"'people have concerns over the driving down of wages, competion for jobs, shortage of social housing, services like health and education stretched and inadequate, overcrowing of roads and transport systems, environmental degradation and so on.'
Ok, all above true, but how do you arrive at the conclusion that these issues are all down to immigration?"


How could I answer that without showing the link between immigration and those issues?

We are discussing the upside and downsides of high immigration.
You feel free to point out the upside, but if I point out a downside you shout "racist"

You specifically asked me to join this discussion.
I must be allowed to express the issues and concerns that are felt, without being called a racist liar for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:21 AM

Now Royston, re my posts that you and Mr Happy say "prove" me a racist liar.
The first four all concern whether the projections are still valid.
Unless you have some hard evidence that the current, recession driven surge in emigration is permanent, that is a valid point of view.
Do you have such evidence?
If not your assertion that everything is different now could itself be called a lie.
But not by me.
It is a valid point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:15 AM

Royston, if all that economic stuff on the graph is too complicated, just look at the blue line of net migration.

It shows a steady upward, with short lived dips at each of the last three recessions, that had no effect on the long term trend.

If that is true for this recession, then the projections ARE still valid, and you certainly can not call someone a racist liar for pointing that out.

Every recession has produced a temporary surge in emigration, which soon ended and did not effect the long term trend.
Tell us why you think this one will be any different Royston.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 02:15 AM

Thanks Tug.
Royston agrees with me on the first quote.
He said"Yes Keith, we know people have justified concerns about immigration."
Did you mistake that for xenophobia?

The next two could only be taken that way if you did not read what went before, i.e. points about immigrants returning due to recession.
EU ones might, others probably not, but no suggestion that one sort is better or worse than the other.

Thw work permit system is used by many countries. They can not all be xenophobic.

The economics of migration is crucial to this debate. My protagonists have all given the opposite view but no one else offered this interpretaion. You do want to hear both sides don't you?

The schools thing is one of those legitimate concerns Royston wrote about.

Lastly, "these issues" were issues to do with immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 08:57 PM

I think that immigration levels in recent years give cause for legitimate concerns

The majority of our immigrants, however, are from Africa and the Indian subcontinent

The concern is that EU incomers are very likely to return, but not those from third world countries.

People are welcome to work, send home money, save and return.

The Government claim that immigrants add £6 billion to our economy. What they do not say is that they also add to our population in almost exactly the same proportion as they add to production. Thus the benefit to the native population is very small - an outcome confirmed by major studies in the US, Canada and Holland and most recently by the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs. The Government's own calculation, submitted in evidence to that Committee, implies an annual benefit to the resident population of only 62p per head a week (see White Paper Cm 7414 para 2.5).

Meanwhile, there are more than 300 primary schools in which over 70% have English as a second language; this is nearly a half million children.

Especially in our cities, immigration is the overwhelming factor in these issues.


Oh Crikey, how do I keep mistaking this stuff dor thinly veiled xenophobia?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 08:42 PM

ooops, was logged out earlier when I declined Keith's kind invitationn to take back my remark about mistaking his posts for thinly veuiled xenophobia. I declined because it really is an easy mistake to make. I'm sure I could be easily mistaken over many of his posts. perhaps I'm prone to mistakes.... or.....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:38 PM

http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2743942

The projections are still valid - Lie, they are not valid. Keith's hysteria was based on a projection of the future that was dependent on net migration staying the same as it was in 2006/7.

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http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2743670

The entire post is a lie. It is put forward in the context of a discussion of "now". It is only my wariness of Keith's 'facts' that forced him to admit that the whole thing was dragged out of 2003, including his deliberately reprinted and sensationalist (senstionally out of date) claim of 300 asylum seekers every day.

-------------------------------------
http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2743382

Now you ask me about Migrationwatch and their views on the current situation - but what Keith actually gave me was But figures also show a 290,000 rise in overseas-born UK residents, which hit 6.5 million in the year to June 2008 - data that has nothing do with now, it is over two years old (the earliest data in the range). Lies, misinformation, halftruths. Designed to mislead.

--------------------------------------
http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2740614

More 2007 projections put forward as a fact of where Keith claims we are heading.

---------------------------------------
http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2740304

This message contains a number of sensational statements

"The NAO projects..."

"The latest government household projections show..."

"Immigration is the overwhelming factor..."

When the truth is that the NAO *did* project and the household projections *once upon a time* showed some things that are now no longer true. Making Keith a liar.

Others then proved that in fact birth rate was the biggest factor, not immigration. Making Keith a liar again. And then Keith pointed out that the birth rate was higher amongst citizens born outside the UK suggesting that part of Keith's solution would be "send 'em 'ome"

Enough to be getting on with? I've had enough now, can't be bothered with clickies. Anyone that cares can cut/paste them into the address bar.

And I'm not going in any more circles on this with you Keith. Don't come back and blame it all on MigrationWatch - your impeccable source. YOU found those snippets, you presented them in the way you did and you are the liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:30 PM

Most people can read so give them something.
Which of my hundreds of posts on this should they look at?
JUST SELECT THE VERY WORST ONE!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:08 PM

Most people here can read. They can even use scroll up and scroll down.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM

You have to prove that I said it.
You could easily do that by reproducing it.
But you can not.
Saying that you have seen it will not do.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM

I don't have to prove that which you yourself have said.

Every time you've misled people, I've pointed it out and the record is here for all to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

You keep repeating the slander but you never justify it.
You can not because there is no truth in it.
Just empty abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:52 PM

Because, Keith, you tell lies to reinforce your own paranoia and that of others in regard to immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM

I have to agree with you Royston.
There are other issues facing working class communities.

Immigration pressure is the main one being addressed here as the previous ignoring of it by politicians has led people into the clutches of BNP.
(As I have been saying for months)

Now, why do you call me a racist liar please?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:49 AM

Yes Keith, we know people have justified concerns about immigration.

The article also lists other community issues;

*Recession

*Loss of traditional jobs - that's industrial change, decay, factories and the like shutting down and relocating to the Far East.

*Collapse of trust in local authorities and services

Just to be sure that people aren't in any way misled, Keith, into thinking that the initiative, and the issues it identifies, are all about immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:09 AM

Mr Happy said on 6th October, "I am wondering what issues/ 'legitimate concerns' are so worrying to some people."

John Denham, the Communities Secretary, could have told you.
I did tell you.
"Some councils have told government they have struggled to maintain the confidence of local people who feel they had been left behind as policymakers have appeared to focus on the needs of incomers.

Mr Denham denied these areas had been largely "forgotten" by policymakers, but acknowledged that some were susceptible to extremist far-right recruitment if people's grievances were not dealt with.

"These are areas where we know that people will often say, I'm not sure that someone is speaking up for us, does anyone really understand what is happening to our lives."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8305906.stm


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