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BS: UK immigration too high?

Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 09 - 09:30 AM
Tug the Cox 27 Oct 09 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 09 - 05:52 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 09 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 09 - 02:53 AM
Tug the Cox 26 Oct 09 - 08:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 09 - 03:46 PM
Peace 26 Oct 09 - 03:29 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 09 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford 26 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 09 - 09:37 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Oct 09 - 08:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 09 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 26 Oct 09 - 08:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 09 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 26 Oct 09 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 09 - 05:11 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 09 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 09 - 03:26 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 09 - 12:52 AM
Paco O'Barmy 25 Oct 09 - 06:25 PM
Paco O'Barmy 25 Oct 09 - 06:24 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Oct 09 - 06:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Oct 09 - 02:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 09 - 12:04 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Oct 09 - 11:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 09 - 08:18 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Oct 09 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford 25 Oct 09 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau 24 Oct 09 - 07:54 PM
Tug the Cox 24 Oct 09 - 07:02 PM
ard mhacha 24 Oct 09 - 04:55 PM
ard mhacha 24 Oct 09 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau. 24 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau 24 Oct 09 - 03:47 PM
Tug the Cox 24 Oct 09 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 09 - 09:24 AM
Tug the Cox 24 Oct 09 - 08:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 09 - 05:58 AM
Tug the Cox 23 Oct 09 - 08:20 PM
Tug the Cox 23 Oct 09 - 08:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 09 - 01:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM
Tug the Cox 23 Oct 09 - 12:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 09 - 09:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 09 - 08:57 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM

There is none so blind as them who refuse to see!
Look at the graph, figure 4, that I linked to.
A steadily rising trend, extrapolated into the near future.
Look at the net migration graph that Richard linked to.
Net migration is shooting up at the start, 1998, and continues to rise for the whole period. There is an upward spike which is the EU influx, which peaks in 2005. That decline is the EU rush tailing off.

How can you two set yourselves up as an authority on population, and contradict the teams of expert demographers, statisticians, economists and social scientists employed by the ONS.
Do you have more comprehensive and up to date statistics than they do?Please tell us how you know that they have got it completely wrong, and you two know better????
I believe the professionals.
Who do you think is going to believe you????
You are in denial.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 09:30 AM

It is more noteworthy than that. Net immigration started to fall in mid 2005, whereas the economy did not enter recession until late 2008, which might very well presage a continuing fall in net immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 08:58 AM

Everyone except you agrees that makes UK immigration too high.

   No, as I said in my deleterd post, it is a balance between immigration and available resources. Immigration may or may not be too high, according to the political will to devote resources.

    The present trends, over the past couple of yearts cannot be extrapolated. That would be like measuring a baby's growth over the firat year and extrapolating an 18 ft being with a huge head.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:52 AM

Apology accepted.
Thank you.
The ONS projections take all trends up to mid 2008 into account, and unless there is a dramatic change in policy they are valid.
Everyone except you agrees that makes UK immigration too high.

The supposed need for immigration to solve the pension problem is not proven.
For instance, see the opinions of Migrationwatch and Balanced migration


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:17 AM

You are right that the link I gave was not to more recent figures, and therefore you were not lying when you said the link you gave was to up to date figures. To that extent I owe you and give you an apology.

Your reading of the effect of the data is still however wrong in that immigration has been falling (incidentally, since some time before the economic downturn) and is falling, which will be disastrous in terms of the age profile of the population - the "pensions time-bomb".


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:53 AM

Richard, you have been busy posting elsewhere (and smearing my name elsewhere).
You need to answer here.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:39 PM

Tug?
Pesent levels unsustainable. Very true.
But why do you think the trend will not continue?
All the evidence is that it will.

yes Keith, it was me, where has it gone.... I'm still signed in. Why was it deleted....it clearly carried copies of older posts, Joe, or Clone, please re-instate, or thread becomes incoherent!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 03:46 PM

Richard you fool, those ARE the most up to date figures!
That ONS link you posted yesterday, uses the same figures, fool.
Why don't you read the stuff you post links to.
You might notice that the graph stops at 2008.
By your logic, that makes you a liar as well as a fool.

I am a physicist, but not an economist.
Are you?
For any you can find, I can find one that does NOT agree that immigration is the answer to our problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 03:29 PM

"UK immigration too high?"

Smokin' too much bud over there . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 03:28 PM

Keith why don't you read the stuff you posted links to?

The projections there were based on 2008 figures: fact.

We now know (from the very same ONS) that ever since then net immigration has been falling: fact.

You ask whether the immigration is sustainable: look at the age profiles in the same stuff you linked to: we need more immigrants to provide an economy that can support the ageing.

Either that or you will have to start exporting or killing the ageing, or starving them out. You call yourself a physicist? You should be able to work out the arithmetic.

I repeat. If you called the stuff you posted to the most up to date information, then you are a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM

Tug?
Pesent levels unsustainable. Very true.
But why do you think the trend will not continue?
All the evidence is that it will.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 09:37 AM

richard, look on the other thread .
I found someone who agrees with you!
I would say that he is incredible, not credible though.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:59 AM

"In return for their heroism and their sacrifices in defence of our freedom Churchill and Attlee sold their country out to Stalin at Yalta and Potsdam."

Strictly speaking, they didn't make their sacrifices in defence of our freedom - that was a cause secondary to what was overwhelmingly their main objective, which was the liberation and re-constitution of Poland.

But you're right Chris, they were astonishingly brave and we owe them a great debt of gratitude. I've met some of those men, and felt humble in their presence - very humble indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:36 AM

Chris, I am not calling for the removal of anyone.
Why do you even ask that?
Have you read any of my posts in this thread at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:32 AM

Are you planning to get rid of the Irish as well? They're immigrants from a foreign country as well, after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:06 AM

I agree Scouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:26 AM

I'm not aware of anyone complaining about Poles coming to Britain in 1939 and 1940 when they came to continue the fight against Nazi Germany alongside their comrades in the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, the Army and the Merchant Marine. In return for their heroism and their sacrifices in defence of our freedom Churchill and Attlee sold their country out to Stalin at Yalta and Potsdam.

When it comes to the Poles, we owe them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:11 AM

The difference between births and deaths has only just overtaken immigration as the main cause of our rapidly spiralling population, and immigration is making that worse.
Immigration is still accounting for almost half of our population increase, so how can it be ignored, fool.

If you have more up to date figures than The Office Of National Statistics, you should contact them at once, fool.

This very month Phil Woolas, the immigration minister foolishly said "Today's projections show that population growth is starting to slow down, the impacts of the radical reforms we have made to the immigration system over the last two years are working," he said.

However, Guy Goodwin, ONS director of population statistics, said the change was due to a change in data analysis, not Government policy. "I would not call it a significant slowing up in any way," he said.

Actual immigration is not falling.
A few extra people are leaving because of the recession.
Do you have any evidence that will continue, fool?
The FACT that every previous recession in the last 40 years has had the same, short lived effect is very good evidence that it will not.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 04:39 AM

You know perfectly well I was referring to the difference between births and deaths.

Equally you know perfectly well that it became a given of this thread long ago that opinion was not the issue, but that the facts were.

I have in the past hesitated to join Royston in calling you a liar, but this time you have condemned yourself. You refer to "the best and most up to date figures". The document you link to is dated this month, but it is, as it says, based on 2008 figures, ever since when immigration has been falling.

What it does show, however, is the alarming PSA ratio - which on their figures shows a very adverse trend - as I predicted above - and on current immigration figures it will really take a dive.

Maybe as well as blockading the ports (sea and air) - although they already all have immigration controls - you want to start shooting the elderly?

Maybe you really want to stop tourists coming in unless other tourists have been counted out. Is that your plan?

How are you going to count them, and how are you going to round up those who have gone missing?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 03:26 AM

How stupid and pointless to say that immigration is below population increase.
Unless it is the only factor, OF COURSE IT IS!

Look at this month's population graph from ONS. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pproj1009.pdf
Figure 4 shows the highest and lowest future population rise for various factors. On the minimal reasonable assumption for immigration based on the best and most up to date figures, it is shooting up.

Who else apart from you thinks that is OK?
Our 3 main parties agree on little, but they agree immigration is too high. Most of the population do too. It seems everyone does except you. I have asked several times if you know of one credible individual who agrees with you.
Silence.
You have a mental block on this and it is pointless arguing with you.

Re controls, the numbers entering across beaches is minute and negligible. Immigrants come in through air and sea ports.
We should invest a little more on controls there and implement a quota system based on the numbers leaving.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:52 AM

Paco, I provided some details above of the diversity of people we have in my village. At the university at which I mostly teach the vast preponderance of students are not eligible to join the BNP under its current constitution, and on the bus from such teaching to the train I am usually the only person who would be so eligible.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:25 PM

Oh, 300 by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:24 PM

This thread goes Richard/Keith/Richard/Keith.... I suspect that the right honourable Richard lives in a white only enclave!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:19 PM

No. It is below population growth, and falling.

And you can't say "too high" and purport to attribute blame for that alleged fact until you have an alternative. Looks like you haven't.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM

Richard, one thread at a time.
When you agree with Tug and me that the answer to the question, "UK immigration too high?" is yes, we will start one on how to reduce it.

So Richard, is it too high or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:44 PM

Keith, check how many migrants walk across the borders of the US. I have a friend who walked or drove into the USA as he pleased for many years, and was running a haulage business there after being deported 7 (I think it was) times before one of the US agencies said "We are now deporting you again. If we find you here again illegally you are going to jail for a long time". He than married a native American woman and ran his haulage business for a number more years before a row with her led him to park one of his Kenwoods that was registered in her name in a parking lot at JFK and fly out for good, of his own free will.

Turning now to Australia:

You already ought to be able to figure out how the manipulation of number requirements in a points system can affect the number of those entitled to entry. It is immaterially different from a hard cap as used by Australia.

Try figuring out how (as Australia threatens) sinking ships can apply to trucks coming in on short-haul ro-ro ferries and to the Eurotunnel.

Is that what you want: to threaten to murder people before finding out whether they have legitimate claims to entry?


You want, it seems, no more immigrants.

We already have immigration control at all airports and ports. How many ships and planes do you want scouring the seas and skies for small boats and aircraft aircraft? Will you search every truck coming into the UK, and how will that affect international trade?

Now suppose those you find claim asylum. What will you do? Tag them all so they can be tracked? How much equipment will you need? Who will operate it? How will you stop the tags being cut off? How will you tag everyone already here?

What will you do about visa overstayers? Tag every tourist so that you can be sure they go home?

You are wrong to want a bar on immigration - but if you could impose one, how would you police it?

The present government has already got the period for determination of asylum claims down and the number of refusals up. Asylum is not an easy option, and the existing laws permit a bare and unpleasant subsistence to those who wait for a decision. By and large, visas if refused cannot be re-applied for while still in the UK.

You say the government should "actually try". Well, come on, what should they try? A perimeter fence and patrols with dogs and sub-machine guns?

The government knows perfectly well that jerks are going on about immigration. Don't you think they'd like to shut them all up?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:04 PM

The same way that USA and Autralia do.

Richard, you keep bringing up the birth rate.
I just said that it is not relevant.
As I said, we have the rate we have. We can only control immigration.
Are you saying that it is impossible to reduce it at all?
Maybe if the government actually tried?
Actually appeared to want to?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:58 AM

If you cannot control illegal immigration then you cannot control entry either.

Net immigration is falling. You can speculate why, and you can speculate when if ever that will reverse, but it is the present fact. You rule out, it seems, compulsory birth control (despite the fact that you several times refer to children of immigrants), so that makes it plain that the only thing you want to stop is immigration.

What do you mean that "most countries do manage better control of their borders"?
1. That fewer people arrive without going through immigration control at all?
2. That they receive fewer asylum applications?
3. That they reject more asylum applications?
4. That they do it faster?
5. That they more promptly or successfully deport failed asylum seekers?
6. That they are more effective at hunting down and deporting category 1 arrivals?

You say you want fewer immigrants. How do you plan to achieve that?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:18 AM

Richard, net immigration is falling because of the recession.
It is due to people leaving.
Every recession has been the same, and the effect is always temporary.
Actual immigration is still rising.

The birth rate you brought up again is a red herring.
We have the birth rate we have.
If it rises, to control population we can only control entry.

If we really can not prevent and remove illegals, then again we can only control entry.

Most countries do manage better control of their borders than we seem able to..
I suspect our government lacks the will.
A supply of cheap labour suits them and suits the bosses.
The people who suffer the effects are just the urban working class.
If they complain they must be racist and can be ignored.
And their natural champions, the political Left, are complicit.
Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:27 AM

Keith here http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=950 are figures apparently current to August 2009 from the ONS showing net migration still falling.

Those sucked into false predictions of prosperity (as in "The Grapes of Wrath") deserve our greatest sympathy, and for many reasons government (in its widest sense) needs to know who they are and where they are. Some may be illegal entrants, some may be overstayers, some may be failed asylum applicants, but not all are any such, I assert.

There is a case for removal of the above three categories (for they have been determined as not lawfully being here), and as I said long ago I believe it is possible for English law to make it clear that visa applicants can be detained during processing. That does not however enable full policing of removal.

Making rules about who is allowed to enter does not solve that puzzle.

Perhaps those who insist that population growth is ipso facto bad (a position I think irrational) or at present excessive (a position I think, allowing for projections, not justifiable) should set out: -

a) How they would reduce the excess of births over deaths, and
b) How they could find those unlawfully (now or in the future) here?
c) How they could prevent illegal entry?

There are no magic wands, and no government can be blamed for not achieving the impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:02 AM

Yes Tug, present figures certainly give cause for concern.
Future figures we do not know, but official projections based on the current official figures are for continued rapid rise in population.
And that is this month's figures and this month's projections.
Richard, birth rate has only just overtaken immigration as the main driver of population rise, because of the high birth rate of immigrants.

Government controls so far are utterly ineffective at controlling the spiralling population. I think it needs more than a tweak Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:54 PM

Imigration has a lot to do with homelessness.

1)(The government has no idea how meny homeless folk there are in this country from overseas.

(2 above all how meny of these folk are illegal having out stayed there visa,s but not returned home and are living rough or paying to sleep in safe houses.

3) How many criminals fleeing there own judisal system have fled over here and started up over here. (a true fact.)

But for the majority of law abideing overseas folk what prospect is there for those with out work or shelter.
There is no Carrington House anymore(Thank God)
There is no Cardboard city.

There is
St Martins in the fields in London which is bursting at the seams and cant cope but manages to regardless.   

The one time hostals that we did have could just about cope with our homeless and lots have been closed down due to Government cutbacks

And now these folk intised here through prospects of jobs and pay and also to those who came thinking that the streets of London are paved with gold and have been left pennyless cannot now return home through being pennyless even if they want to.

Sad state of affairs.

Kind regards to all.
I,ll post no more.
Pierre Le Chapeau.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 07:02 PM

From yahoo news

The survey in the News of the World found that almost two-thirds of voters feel the mainstream parties have no credible policies on immigration. But only 6% said the BNP had the best policies on the issue and just 10% agreed with the far-right party that there should be a halt to all future immigration.

   Perhaps I'm not in such a minority after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:55 PM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1023/nationwide_av.html?2632183,null,228


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:45 PM

On the Nationwide programme on RTE last night the highest number of migrants in Ireland came from England.
The English people who have migrated here have nothing but praise for their Irish neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau.
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM

why is it that Polish builders with the same certified papers has our national builders are doing the same jobe has our national builders but getting paid a hell of a lot less. The fact that they would earn less in there home land but earn more over here is not the issue the fact they are doing the same job means they should earn the same wage. alot of building firms are owned by ex politicians who use this has a excuse to save them selves money that is racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM

The points based system can be tailored by adjusting the points threshold.

The legality of detaining pending asylum seekers and others needing but not having visas can be dealt with by primary and probably secondary legislation.

The period for asylum determinations is down.

The number of successful asylum applications is down.

Location of removees can be dealt with (eg anklets).

Log-in and log-out issues can be dealt with.

A8 immigration is now negative.

Japan has one of the most rapidly ageing populations (particularly Tokyo) and the UK one of the next. To support the pensions timebomb we NEED population growth. That or the demolition of capitalism. Or compulsory euthanasia and a Malthusian doctrine.

And the main cause of population growth is not immigration.   

Therefore the opposition to immigration, and Keith's basic premise, is at best xenophobia.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 03:47 PM

Hi Keith from Hertford . Firstly Iam a mudcat member.

Unless I misunderstand you why should my above posts be deleted there is nothing wrong with them I am not racist I speak from what I see and what I encounter all being now,t but the truth.

I agree with imigration to fill jobs.
But I do not agree with the fact that when the flood gates are opened and jobs are filled that thousands of poor homeless folk nationwide are left high and dry to rot on our streets.

Its disgusting.
Good luck to the polish workers.
My building where I work employs scores of cleaners from
South America good luck to them. if they can earn and have a better life over here good luck again.

Imigration leads to homelessness if it is not controled carefully and no goverment from any political party in this country clearly gives a toss about what I am referring to and that is the homeless.
The blinkered politican who says this and that but does now,t.


I put that to you and whoever else.
Kind regards Pierre


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 12:44 PM

That was reported in the Guardian this week. The PRESENT figures give cause for concern, but we need to see the longer term trends.

Either to limit immigration ,or devote more resouces, may well be necessary. It is shameful that so many people are having to live in virtual shanty towns when they came here to work!!!

   Some kind of humane system is needed, a blanket halt to immigration, especially if based on racial grounds ( no, I am not accusing you of saying that) would be a slur on our reputation as a civilised couintry....especially as we expect to be eble to retire or relocate almost anywhere in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 09:24 AM

Tug, re your first paragraph, I have produced no figures that suggest the rate is declining and may reverse.
I would be fascinated to see any such.

Para2, not all our ills. I specified those ills due to a rapidly rising population. For many years now, immigration has been the main driver of that, and it is not xenophobic to state that.

para3, "so do we" No. Our points based system is not working to stem the flow.
Re EU. Most of our immigrants are not from EU.
We were one of the few EU countries that CHOSE to allow unrestricted access to the new accession countries.
We must live with EU migration unless we renegotiate membership, and could limit outside migration to compensate. That might be seen as xenophobic.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 08:21 AM

Keith, none of my posts suggest I am unaware of the PRESENT levels of immigration being sustainable. The figures that you partially report suggest the rate is declining and that there will be a return to a net outflow......this may happen without any government interference.


    I diverge from you on laying the blame for all our ills solely on immigration, for making unworkable suggestions for 'stopping them'.feeding xenophobia and others and missing all sorts of points in a selective manner. Our Island is not 'overcrowded',but we lack the resources to fill parts of it with new cities at the rate that current figures would suggest. Subtle difference, or don't you get it.
Almost all other countries apply limits to immigration.US style quota system.Australian points based system that, unlike ours, actually limits the numbers entering.
So do we, except that we have duties arisingv from our EU membership.Practical suggestions please!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 09 - 05:58 AM

"Of course present levels aren't sustainable"
Tug that is the first time you have even hinted at that.
Your previous;

the 'our overcrowded little island' argument is bankrupt at every level.

Our island is still not overrcrowded

immigration population who have a younger age profile and a higher fertility rate.
But so what.

Now we agree, so that is fine. End of our discussion.
What should be done? Almost all other countries apply limits to immigration.US style quota system.Australian points based system that, unlike ours, actually limits the numbers entering.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:20 PM

I suggest that the only reason I am the only Mudcatter making this case is because of the nasty, abusive and insulting way that your side argues its case.
From the start you have made personal attacks instead of reasoned arguments. It is much easier to just say "racist" and "xenophobe".


Look up 'ad hominem'.
I am not on a 'side'. I also never side with a majority ( e.g those who favour a return of capital punishment) just because they outnumber me.
You again run away from the argument.......given that we need to think casrefully about predsent levels of immigration ( as well as longevity and how it will be finances) can you please suggest concrete proposals that are not xenophobic?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:15 PM

Of course present levels aren't sustainable, but that hasn't been the drift of the thread, which seems to be whether immigration is the prime cause for a whole set od social ills.

    Quite what kind of policy would need to be put in place has not really been dicussed either, given eu rules, economic need in the Uk etc, though there does seem to be some simploistic thinking about just pulling up the drawbridge, without any real consideration of how that would be done, and what wider, unforseen consequences this might have.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:51 PM

Some results from a YouGov opinion poll this year.

- 76% want to see net immigration cut from its present level of 237,000 a year to 50,000 or less a year. Of that 76%, 32% want to see a policy of "one in, one out" while 22% want to see no immigration at all.
The party affiliations are also of interest:
- A sharp cut in immigration (to 50,000 a year or less) was supported by 85% of Conservative, 70% of Labour[1] and 65% of Lib Dem voters.

I suggest that the only reason I am the only Mudcatter making this case is because of the nasty, abusive and insulting way that your side argues its case.
From the start you have made personal attacks instead of reasoned arguments. It is much easier to just say "racist" and "xenophobe".
Do you really believe that 76% of the population are racists?

Have you thought of anyone who does not think immigration is too high?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

Very good Tug!
Be fair though, I have already given all 3 political parties as agreeing it is too high.
I can not think of any credible person who does not.
So, can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:18 PM


Can any of you produce one authoritative person who agrees with you that current immigration levels are sustainable?


Who said that?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:59 AM

Don T, we could import all the builders in the world, but then you would have to bring in builders from other worlds to build towns for them.
Don, seven new Birminghams in 25 years.
It is time to stop.

Can any of you produce one authoritative person who agrees with you that current immigration levels are sustainable?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

""Don T could any kind of builder provide England with a complete city of Birmingham every four years for the next 25?
That's what we will need just to stop things getting worse than they are now.
""

My point precisely! You are going to need those foreign workers, or you are going to be in a much BIGGER hole.

God, it's murder talking to the hard of understanding.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:57 AM

Ruth,
"My point, Keith, is that "too much immigration" is always going to be relative to the resources and econonomic production within a particular society. If more people are productive, there are more resources for everyone."

I have argued that our very high population density and the serious concerns over immigration related issues are evidence that things have gone much too far.

"I would argue that tax-paying immigrants are not nearly as much of a drain on available resources as the indigenous Britons who do not work, and who live within the benefits sub-culture."

I absolutely agree Ruth.

"I know that this sounds incredibly reactionary, but I would really like to see this sector of society quantified in comparison to the "drain" on resources caused by immigration. I feel that it's easy to scapegoat the immigrant as the cause of Britain's problems, when in many cases, as highlighted by Don T, we are the solution."

I tend to agree with that, and certainly do not go in for scapegoating.
It is just a question of numbers.


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