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BS: UK immigration too high?

The Sandman 18 Nov 09 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 09 - 02:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 09 - 02:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 09 - 09:55 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Nov 09 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,Gary 17 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 09 - 04:35 PM
The Sandman 17 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau 17 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau. 17 Nov 09 - 01:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 09 - 01:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau 17 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM
The Sandman 17 Nov 09 - 12:48 PM
ard mhacha 17 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM
ard mhacha 17 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 09 - 08:32 AM
ard mhacha 17 Nov 09 - 05:41 AM
Royston 16 Nov 09 - 06:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Nov 09 - 02:03 PM
bubblyrat 16 Nov 09 - 12:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Nov 09 - 12:25 PM
Tug the Cox 14 Nov 09 - 02:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Nov 09 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Les Paul 13 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM
Arnie 13 Nov 09 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 09 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 09 - 02:54 AM
Tug the Cox 29 Oct 09 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 04:42 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Oct 09 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Oct 09 - 02:36 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Oct 09 - 08:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM
folk1e 28 Oct 09 - 04:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM
Tug the Cox 28 Oct 09 - 03:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Oct 09 - 01:26 PM
Tug the Cox 28 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM
Tug the Cox 28 Oct 09 - 12:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Oct 09 - 11:08 AM
Tug the Cox 27 Oct 09 - 09:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 09 - 08:05 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:58 AM

Keith,you asked me a question,and you scored an own goal,because I did leave my country.
you are free to live anywhere in Europe,if you dont like it take Tebbitts advice


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:13 AM

Don, you are right. I should not glibly use the word never when people like you are involved.
I could have been referring to the time when we were not an island couldn't I.
But only you might have thought so.
In all the debate in this country, I have never seen anyone else claim that the invasion of the ancient Kingdoms that we now call England, in the distant Dark Ages, when these lands were mainly wilderness, amid a welter of slaughter, had any relevance.
Please explain why you felt the need to bring it up here, and why my failure to mention it constitutes "bollocks"!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:07 AM

David, immigration from EU never reached that from outside.
Net immigration from EU is now approaching zero and is expected to remain in balance.
Don, unlike those on your side of this debate, I do not often resort to abuse. I called Schweik a fool because he thinks that whingers, ie anyone exercising their right to question the government, should go into exile.
The alternative in his vision of Britain, presumably, is to be dragged off at dead of night for re education.
We should fear the far Left as much as the far Right I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 09:55 PM

Most of the newcomers have arrived from outside the EU

Have they? Any facts and figures to substantiate that claim?

Back to the main thread. I think that there is a genuine worry that overcrowding will become a problem. I don't think though that immigration is the cause though. Overcrowding will happen regardless of migration patterns, unless we have another world war, heaven forbid. Immigration may make it happen a little sooner but even the 2.5 million figure quoted is quite insignificant compared to the present population. I also believe that the tide is now moving back although I cannot quote any figures on that and I must make clear that this is my own observation.

Although only 3/4 of a million English people emmigrated do we have any figures on the number of previous immigrants who have now left? Anecdotal evidence, such that it is, leads me to believe that a lot of the Poles that arrived locally in the last few years have now returned home. Don't know about other nationalities because I have less reason to notice. It does seem as though a lot who came did not find the land of milk and honey they hoped for and have realised that they have more dentists, hospitals and schools back in Warsaw, Krakow and Bielystok!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:42 PM

""Don T you are wrong again. There has never been immigration on anything approaching this scale before.""

INDEED?

So tell us, O fount of all knowledge, What are the ONS immigration figures for the period 40BC - 2001AD as a percentage of total population? And what were the percentages of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Danes, Celts, Picts etc. etc. You must have those figures, since you claim to know that they were lower than today's.

You do talk some bollocks boy, and YOU are the one who is so fond of throwing the word FOOL around, fool.


""So there is a problem waiting for dentists,well maybe we could with a few immigrant dentists to reduce the wait.""

Strangely enough Dick, a huge proportion of our dentists are in fact Australian.

Guest, Gary,

Go and play with the traffic on the motorway of your choice. Nobody is swallowing this multi anonymous identities BNP crap anymore.

Don T.



Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Gary
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM

I don't see Keith as a racist. I see him as a guy who loves his country and is proud to be British. He expressed an opinion and now he is getting it in the neck.

More than 2.5 million people have been allowed to flock through the "open door" into Britain.

Most of the newcomers have arrived from outside the EU, making a mockery of Government claims that an annual cap on migrants would have a limited effect. That is equivalent to the entire population of Greater Manchester. This has put a massive drain on public services.

It has also forced up the tax burden on already hard-pressed families and seen police forces pleading for more cash to deal with gangs of foreign criminals. Immigration is having a dramatic effect on our public services. It's one of the biggest reasons we're having to build so many new houses and concrete over our country.

Mass immigration is making all services scarcer and more expensive in terms of tax as a large number of Polish couples come to the UK to have their families and the British taxpayer are left to raise them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:35 PM

Are you really saying that anyone who disapproves of government policy on anything should just leave the country???
What about my job?
What about my family settled here?
I only speak English.
I am 59.
But I must not object to anything, just leave the country!
You are a fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Schweik, yes I could leave, and tens of thousands do.
I suspect you will be unhappy if we get another Tory government, but would it drive you from the country of your home and family?
yes it did,I left because I couldnt stand Thatcher,now stop Whingeing and get on your bike,take the advice of Norman Tebbitt.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

I get off the train at Waterloo East London when I go to work and I see on a regular basis a homelss man who has two stumps for legs he is clearly homeless and he gets around London on a bread crate with wheels on it. He uses his hand to push himself along. Its a pityous sight to see I asked myself how is this allowed to happen. Without that trolley nhe would be rolling bodily along the pavement.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau.
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:42 PM

No offence to our friends across the pond this is not your fault it boils down to OUR UK spineless.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:40 PM

Schweik, yes I could leave, and tens of thousands do.
I suspect you will be unhappy if we get another Tory government, but would it drive you from the country of your home and family?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM

Ard, Ireland lost about 3million in that terrible decade.
All too many were deaths. Many others crossed the Atlantic.
Exact records of how many arrived here were not kept because they were british citizens.
Over the last ten years, almost three quarters of a million British people have left the UK and nearly 2.5 million immigrants have arrived. This rate of inflow is 25 times higher than any previous period of immigration since the Norman Conquest in 1066


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM

I agree with Don in the thread above re staffing in hospitals would be down if not staffed by folk from overseas.

This is true and the reason is that all our nurses and doctors have had to go overseas to pratish doctoring and nursing because the British goverment is to bloody stingy and tight to finacnce uk citizens who demand decent wages.

So instraed they go abroad to Saudia Arabia and the USA where the wages are much better. My sister has been in (Saudi for 10 years)

The government cannot just do away with the NHS and make everyone pay for there health
so they fill the vacancies with folk from, overseas who will work for half the wages saving millions of £s but those millions of £s saved does not clearly get put back into the NHS SYSTEM. The money saved is used to fund over things .
What happened to the body scanner that was funded from public money and jumble sales and events when the Brook hospital closed back in the 80s. Fuuny how a bloody great scanner can just vanish without a trace.

Has for folk coming here from overseas to work in hospitals clearly it is improving there lives so good luck to them. I dont blames them
But in 20years time you can say farewell to the NHS you will be paying for your own hip replacemnets bloodtests you will have to get your own medical insurence on a yearly basis like car insurence. and it wont be cheep it will cost you thousands has they do in the USA. and that is what our government wants for over here.
The American way.
Its a disgusting.
Regards Pierre.,


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 12:48 PM

Why are you concerned about numbers,you now have the opportunity to live anywhere in Europe.
if you dont like England any more you can leave.
So there is a problem waiting for dentists,well maybe we could with a few immigrant dentists to reduce the wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM

That should read 6.2 million in 1850.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM

Surely Keith the Irish potato famine,the country was reduced from 9 million in 1841 to 2.5 million in 1850, England was then swamped by the fleeing Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:32 AM

My concern on immigration is just about numbers, not race.
The same concerns are expressed by the Prime Minister, the government, the Libdems and the Tories.
You people are way out on an extreme, radical wing.
Don T you are wrong again. There has never been immigration on anything approaching this scale before.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:41 AM

We should all be thanking Dr Barnardos, all of the other institutions, and of course the British politicians for shipping out all of those poor chidren to the colonies.
Just think Britain would have been bursting at the seams, that is what I call forward thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:24 PM

Guest: Falco

You are the voice of reason. Yes it is right and proper to feel concerned about population and provision issues. If people are needed; for economic growth or to support senior citizens/retirees, then the only issue that need give cause for concern is the challenge of providing the schools/dentists/doctors/houses for all the necessary and productive workers.

The answer is not to restrict the producers of societal wealth. It is to provide enough of the support mechanisms those producers require.

If, as some 'guests' claim, some migrant or indigenous people take the piss out of our welfare state then that is justification for enforcement against piss takers including the feckless white trash BNP voters; not justification for persecuting immigrants.

Keith A, in the absence of immigrant scapegoats, would not advocate sterilization of white britons to control the growth of the socially needy...or would he?

Keith, I didn't stop arguing against your stupidity, I am really busy. Working in Angola of late.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:03 PM

""it is just PURE COMMON SENSE !""

Not much of PURITY about it...No matter how loudly you shout.

In 2000 years, there has never been a DAY when this country didn't have a significant immigrant population, and today is no different.

"Too much" is a totally subjective concept.

Too much for whom?....You?.....And why is your assessment more likely to be right than mine, or Richard's?

There is no indication that the infrastructure of this country is collapsing under the weight of immigrants.

More likely, upon logical analysis, is the suggestion that it is in danger of collapsing under the weight of this government's incompetence.

Five percent of a population cannot even significantly influence the choice of government, let alone cause the collapse of a nation's economic structure.

Dear Gordon having saddled every man, woman, and child with thousands of pounds of debt, we might end up being happy to have those immigrants sharing the burden of repayment.

The only complaint I have relating to (but not the fault of) immigrants, is the practice of foreign firms paying wages far below our legal minimum, and then using these low paid workers to carry out work in this country.

That is where the stories of Poles undercutting Brits come from, and it is that which should be stamped on....HARD!

DonT.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:38 PM

Too many foreigners flooding in to an already -overcrowded,over-populated,small island that doesn't have the infrastructure to cope with the sheer numbers.Nothing racist or xenophobic about that----it is just PURE COMMON SENSE !


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:25 PM

""Major premise, I do not want to live in the England of the projections.""

But where would you go Keith?

Abroad is absolutely full of the foreigners you want to keep out.

Is there anywhere in the world that lives up to the exacting, foreigner free standards, which you have outline in dozens of threads?

Me?.....I'll stay put, and find out what effect an influx of new blood has on this multicultural land. After all, it's done well enough out of 2000 years of immigration.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 02:41 PM

Right, the official time was 16 days and 19 hours, would the winning ticket holder please make their claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:46 AM

And from your one (unprovable) anecdote, aboout one immigrant famiy, we are supposed to extrapolate that all the immigrants in this country are here looking for handouts.

Not very likely, given the long line of unverifiable pro BNP "Guests" who have been dirtying these threads recently.

So "Guest, whatever", care to give us some reason for granting your comments any credibility?

No!....I thought not.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Les Paul
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM

I have nothing against any race of people, but when you see the numbers of Europeans flooding into Britain one cannot help but be concerned.

Yes they did arrive in 2000 to seek employment, but they soon discovered that bringing their family over paid a lot better.

I have a family living beside me and the lady told me, their rent is paid, they both receive state benefits, and with three children they receive more than they did when her husband was working.

The government MUST cap the numbers coming in and stop giving them benefits.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Arnie
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:53 AM

Embarkation checks were abandoned at Channel ports by the Tories in the mid 1990's. When Labour took over, they used this as a precedent to abandon embarkation checks at the airports. Now no-one really knows how many visitors, students, work permit holders etc actually leave the UK when their visa expires - an awful lot simply stay put and enter the world of illegal working, sham marriages & bogus college courses. Of course, if you are unfortunate enough to be picked up by a UKBA Arrest Team, then a timely claim for asylum will get you instant bail and another chance to disappear. Until embarkation checks are re-introduced, the UK only really operates half an immigration control. Last time I visited the US I was checked by immigration on departure and I'll bet they haven't abandoned their outward checks.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:18 AM

The PM also described the dismissing of immigration as an issue,(those above and also Fred McCormick) as "lazy elitism."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:54 AM

Immigration is putting an intolerable strain on services in many areas.
There are real issues on jobs and homes.
It is not racist to express concern at the level of immigration.
The government should do something to reduce the influx.

I know I have said all this before, but now the Prime Minister has said the same.
The Lib Dems say his proposals are too little too late.
I wonder what Royston, Mr.Silly, Richard, Tug, Don and Co. are saying.
Liar?
Fantasist?
Xenophobe?
Racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 07:33 AM

Right that does it....off to Australia, plenty of room there.Or maybe Spain, mind you I've heard Corfu is nice for brits.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 06:38 AM

I will be offline for a couple of days.
While the cat's away the numpties can play, at making up theories and naively or disingenuously misinterpreting statistics.

The true figures still show that we are on track for the worst case projections.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 05:39 AM

"Keith your (not the ONS's) argument that immigration will bounce back because it tracks economic growth is unfounded."

The ONS says actual immigration has been rising steadily irrespective of economics.
The ONS predicts that the surge in emigration coinciding with the recession will be temporary as usual for recessions.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 05:18 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/mig0809.pdf
Look at the nice simple graph, Fig 4.3 at the bottom of page 12.
there is a line for UK resident born outside, and for resident foreign nationals.
Both are steadily rising lines.
NO PEAKS ANYWHERE


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:52 AM

512,000 people migrated to the UK in the year to December 2008,
similar to the 527,000 in the year to December 2007 and remaining at a similar level to that
seen since the A8 Accession countries joined the EU in 2004 (Figure 1.1).

NO PEAK IN 2005.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:42 AM

Ignore the post accession EU influx, and there has been NO peak in immigration in 2005.
That was a one off event causing that blip.
You must know that. You are trying to conceal the simple truth that there has been no fall in actual immigration. Only a recession induced temporary increase in actual emigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:22 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=950

Again. Peak immigration 2005. Trend ever since downwards.
Peak well before recession, therefore Keith your (not the ONS's) argument that immigration will bounce back because it tracks economic growth is unfounded.

Just numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:09 AM

Link for last ONS extract http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/mig0809.pdf
To sum up, according to ONS,

Immigration from outside EU is still rising and has been for very many years. So called controls have had no effect.

EU immigration has peaked and declined.

The drop in net migration due to the recession is almost entirely due to people leaving, and is only temporary.

We are still heading for the worst case projections.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:16 AM

The number of persons granted settlement in the United Kingdom, excluding EEA and
Swiss nationals, rose by 26 per cent in the second quarter of 2009 (46,120) compared with
the second quarter of 2008 (36,510).There were increases in employment-related grants
(up 34 per cent to 19,815), family formation and reunion grants (up 9 per cent to 16,965)
and other grants, including those on a discretionary basis and where the category of grant
is unknown (up 56 per cent to 8,740). These were partly offset by a decrease in asylumrelated
grants (down 7 per cent to 600) (Figure 3.3).
Comparing the last 12 months (ending 30 June 2009) with the previous 12 months (ending
30 June 2008), the number of persons granted settlement in the United Kingdom, excluding
EEA and Swiss nationals, rose by 9 per cent from 148,730 to 162,630. There were
increases in employment-related grants (up 17 per cent to 67,600), asylum-related grants
(up 4 per cent to 3,765) and family formation and reunion grants (up 19 per cent to 63,120).
These were partly offset by a decrease in other grants, including those on a discretionary
basis and where the category of grant is unknown (down 18 per cent to 28,145).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 02:36 AM

Richard, I can not resist exposing your ignorance, and your attempts to mislead.
It was only EU immigration that peaked in 2005.
That peak is superimposed on the steadily rising graph of net migration.
ONS expects EU migration to balance.
ONS expects the actual decline in net migration, that coincided with the start of the recession, to be temporary as usual with recessions.
ONS have said that current controls are having no effect.

You are arguing with and against ONS, numpty.
Why should anyone listen to you and ignore them?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 08:47 PM

Bye, then. I'm staying.

As a physicist Keith, you will be aware of the practice of drawing the best curve through data. Immigration peaked in 2005, well before the recession, and has been mostly going down ever since.

There are new measures in place that authorise control of immigration. You admit that most immigration comes through ports (air and sea) but not through smuggling. In those ports there are immigration control posts.

I wish you the best of luck as you age wherever you go, and the falling population means that there will be no support for you in your old age.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

A quick look at the graph Richard linked to shows that the birth rate was already well above the death rate in 1998, and has been ever since.
Balanced migration would still result in rising population.
Many people do think that the population of England, especially the South East, has become too high already.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: folk1e
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 04:52 PM

OK, I'll have a go......
There is a question (or 2) behind the original question of wether UK immigration is too high. Is the population of the UK too high? Is the future population of the UK too high? Will immigration provide the needs of the UK now and in the future? ...... etc, etc

Firstly as has been previously noted effective immigration is the amount of people coming into the country in exess of those emmigrating.
The future population of the UK is dependant on the base population birthrate pluss the immigrant birthrate. UK base population birthrate is not sustainable! By this I mean the base population death rate is higher than birthrate, ergo we need immigration to hold our population at the present levels. I have seen few people advocating a reduction in our population. This leaves us with argueing over the actual amount of immmigration we collectivly want!
If you think about it there is a natural selection involved in emmigration so that we are more likely to loose a highly qualified person than a lower one, if only because they are more likely to be financially able to relocate abroad. This slews the natural ballance of the population (allbeit slightly).
The opposite side of the equation is the earning potential of immigrants is greater than in their homeland, otherwise they would not be coming here!
If we take the long view here, the educational chances of an immigrants children are increased. This has a dramatic effect on the number of their children (there is a direct corolation here)!

So we need some net immigration, and the total number of immigrants (and their families) will initially increase but then slowly reduce to base levels) If anyone doubts this look at the birthrate in countries like Ireland over the last century.

Again this is a simplification of the complex nature of population change and has also been noted already we are being asked to apply an emotional answer rather than an impirical one!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM

Not even you then.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 03:14 PM

All the people 'clamouring' to be immigrants, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:26 PM

Major premise, I do not want to live in the England of the projections.
Who does (not a rhetorical question)?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM

Just two numpties.

Lack of argument reveals itself!

Actually there are quiet a few more. A glance at my PMs indicate that several posters just haven't got the will to endlessly repeat themselves. Perhaps being willing to continue against all evidence of being heard does make us numpties.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 12:35 PM

Ermmm, I'll type this slowly.....figures in themselves do not constitute an argument. Somewhere you must reveal your major premise.

Here's mine.....immigration has always been a part of British life, if it outstrips available resources then we need to take action. This should not be based on racial criteria, should take into consideration gaps in the employment market, and seasonal workers should be accommodated properly ( fruit, hops etc picking is done almost exclusively by eastern Europeans who may well not qualify for permanent immigration).


    Immigration is one of several factors that contribute to a variety of social problems, and in some areas is hardly an issue,yet the problems persist.
Said all this before....Nuff said!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:08 AM

It is the projections based on all the available evidence that justify my belief that immigration is too high.
I am not aware of any credible or authoratative individual, group or publication that does find those projections acceptable.

This has gone on too long now.
I described some of the issues relating to immigration to argue that it is too high.
For doing that I was called a racist and a liar by Mr Silly and Royston, and a xenophobe by Tug, which I take to mean racist.
I used evidence from ONS to endorse everything I claimed.
Only Tug and Richard are still arguing.
They have a preconceived belief that mass immigration is intrinsically good. They have no evidence to support their view and dismiss all evidence to the contrary.
The findings of The Office Of National Statistics, with all their professional expertise, comprehensive data and data processing resources, are simply dismissed.
They know better but they can not say how.

If that does not change their prejudice, nothing I can say is ever going to.
Just two numpties.
Not worth another post.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 09:07 PM

Look, we've already been here......the figures are the figures ( some may be more reliable than others) 'Too high' and 'not too high' are both judgements that stand independent of the figures. ONS doesn't set out to make judgements, only to provide data. If your judgement is different from mine, on the same 'data' there are interesting reasons for this....let's hear them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 08:05 PM

No richard, anyone can look at the graph YOU linked to and see that is not true.
There is a spike that peaks in 2005. That spike ends in 2006, then the steady long term upward trend resumes until the recession.
But I know nothing.
I take note of what the professionals say.
The population is shooting up.
It is driven by immigration and the children of immigrants.
It is not me saying that, but the experts who monitor the statistics for the government.
You obviously know much more than them.
Give us YOUR evidence that says that the ONS is WRONG and immigration is coming down.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

So you agree that net immigration has been falling ever since 2005?


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