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This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh

haddocker 04 Oct 09 - 05:31 PM
haddocker 04 Oct 09 - 05:39 PM
pdq 04 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM
sing4peace 04 Oct 09 - 10:40 PM
Peace 04 Oct 09 - 11:37 PM
Peace 04 Oct 09 - 11:46 PM
haddocker 19 Oct 09 - 06:23 PM
Amos 19 Oct 09 - 06:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Oct 09 - 07:56 PM
haddocker 30 Oct 09 - 11:49 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,sing4peace 31 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM
CarolC 01 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM
GUEST 01 Nov 09 - 07:09 PM
CarolC 01 Nov 09 - 07:45 PM
sing4peace 02 Nov 09 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM
CarolC 02 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM
CarolC 02 Nov 09 - 06:47 PM
sing4peace 04 Nov 09 - 11:55 AM
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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: haddocker
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:31 PM

That elite group of individuals includes Barack Obama, for whom, I assume, you voted for. Are the "concerned individuals" working with him or against him?
   Oh, and I'd like to include a little trivia about the war protests of the 60's. We would have been quite happy to have you (generic, collective you) end the war. But in fact, your mass demonstrations and fervent self sacrificing resolve really boosted the enemy's(yes, boys and girls, ENEMY, who were, in fact, trying to kill us)morale, and they would express their new found encouragement and renewed faith with rockets and mortars. They would pound the living crap out of us whenever you made the headlines and the evening news. To every front there is a back.


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: haddocker
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:39 PM

And can anyone tell me the rationale behind spitting on the returning wounded and beating up recovering patients when they would go out of the hospital on a pass or weekend liberty? I suppose it was safer than engaging in the same behavior with guys returning from combat who were standing with all of their limbs intact, healthy and able to return fire.
    Those incidents inspired a lot of violence, and not necessarily at the time of the offense, but later on a sociological plane. Most of us have had multiple marriages. I am on my third.
                     h


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: pdq
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

haddocker,

On behalf of myself and other Americans, I wish to thank you for your military service to this country.

That statement has nothing to do with the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the conflict in Viet Nam. I has to do with the need to fight the bad guys now and then.


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: sing4peace
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:40 PM

Haddocker - I am truly sorry for your experience. I am sorry for the betrayal you experienced from those who sent you to the war and for those who judged you for it when you got back home.

I grew up in a military family. I was born in the shadow of nuclear bombers in the land of perpetual searchlights. My father - whom you met - was a master air traffic controller for the Strategic Air Command. I know how the military gets used - and abused.

That is why I am concerned about the G-20, the globalizing economy and the ever widening use of surveillance, intervention, imprisonment and other forms of intimidation that are growing exponentially more ubiquitous.

My experiences within the belly of the beast have gone a long way toward informing my pacifist practice. And nowhere in my experience of demonstrating against the U.S. military interventions from Vietnam to Afghanistan have I, or anyone I have ever personally known, ever spit on a veteran or in any way caused harm to a wounded person. When you speak of the actions of a few, please remember that they are only a few and look beyond that and see that there were - and still are - many voices in the wilderness who are the voices of compassion and healing.

A couple of years ago, I happened to spend a week volunteering to help people in my town look names up on the Moving Wall, a touring replica of the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial. During that week, I had many conversations with veterans whose opinions on the impact the anti-war demonstrations had on troop or "enemy" morale were far more varied than one might imagine.

One one hand I heard how I, as the embodiment of the entire anti-war movement(a lot of responsibility for one person) with my peace songs and marching, was responsible for giving comfort and encouragement to the enemy and how our movement was responsible for the war going on as long as it did.

On another hand, I heard how the peace movement was responsible for the war going on as long as it did because we didn't go far enough in our protests and, in our cowardice, we were responsible for more of the killing and dying.

I am tired of being held responsible for other people's acts of murder and mayhem. I am not responsible for the actions of any other person. I speak only for myself. I am responsible only for my own actions or lack thereof.

All I can do is try to follow the still small voice within that leads me to shine a light into the darkest recesses of the war machine to reveal who really is responsible for the war and all the horror attending.

When the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that Bush and Cheney started the war in Iraq under false pretenses, I understood that to be the highest form of treason possible. Where was the outrage? I personally went into the middle of a conference of U.S. Attorneys General to hold up a sign asking why Bush and Cheney weren't under arrest (2007). Who is responsible for the continued violence our troops are experiencing or perpetrating in Iraq or Afghanistan or Guantanamo Bay? The peace movement?

There are unanswered questions from back then that still have a bearing on what's happening now. We have to take a broader look at these events to see who really is pulling the levers behind the curtain.

I think those are the right questions to ask. They might be inconvenient questions but I'm asking anyway.

We are all in this together.

Curiously questing -
Joyce


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 11:37 PM

Haddocker: I too am sorry for your experience.

At risk of deflating this particular balloon, a fellow back in the 1990s wrote a book wherein he sought news stories or other documentation for the 'spitting' stuff that supposedly happen to many people. He could find nothing. The one place where vets seemed to have been rudely treated was San Francisco where they were subject to bad language and gestures. Anyone really interested might try Googling

returning vietnam vets being spit on

(no quotation marks).

I'd interpret the 'being spit upon' as euphemistic and not real. I have NO doubt it happened a few times, but it really wasn't until about 1980 that this particular urban myth began to surface in a big way.


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 11:46 PM

The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam (Hardcover) by Jerry Lembcke

Released (published) in 1998


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: haddocker
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 06:23 PM

Well, brother, I have a whole battalion of Marines who will be glad to regale you with stories. My guess is that the author who wrote those words was somewhat choosy in the participants in his research. I can just imagine the reception he would get if he had approached certain members of my PTSD group. People who want to believe something will grab anything they can in order to build their case. If they find anything at all that is in disagreement they will jettison it like it was on fire. I am really sick of morons with degrees who have never been there writing about what we "really" experienced. I would love to go to one of these book signings and challenge these guys face to face.
                         h


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsbur
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 06:56 PM

If you will it, it is no dream--World Music in the cause of ending the brutal side of war.


A


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 07:56 PM

Ending the brutal side of war?


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: haddocker
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 11:49 PM

According to my experience, the brutal side of war is the only side. War is the epitome of Man's self-destructive folly.
                        h


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM

truer words would be hard to find.
Peace to you Haddocker.
In mutual quest for light in the darkness,
Joyce


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: GUEST,sing4peace
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM

truer words would be hard to find.
Peace to you Haddocker
In mutual quest for light in the darkness,
Joyce

(don't know why the above had me as Guest)


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM

Looks like you need to reset your cookie, Joyce.


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 07:09 PM

thanks Carol - uh, how does one reset a cookie?
jk


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 07:45 PM

Go up to the Quick Links drop down menu at the top sort of right hand of the page. Select "Log In", and click "Go". In the page that comes up, enter your screen name and password, and click "Submit". That will reset your cookie.


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: sing4peace
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 12:08 PM

Woo hoo! thanks for helping me to fix that. Don't know why it disappeared to begin with. Seems some of my posts are gone too. Hmmmm.

Thanks a lot Rhodey pal.
JK


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM

From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM

Looks like you need to reset your cookie, Joyce. ....

Can be accomplished by wearing underwires!!!
If that doesn't work, try push-up!!


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM

No problem. If some of your posts disappeared, they may have been deleted because of the rule about no anonymous postings.


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:47 PM

I actually don't understand that bra joke.


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Subject: RE: This is no time to be silent...G20 in Pittsburgh
From: sing4peace
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 11:55 AM

that "joke" just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
;-)

JK


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