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Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009

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SharonA 06 Jul 09 - 10:06 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM
the lemonade lady 06 Jul 09 - 06:29 AM
open mike 05 Jul 09 - 04:24 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Jul 09 - 02:31 AM
DADGBE 05 Jul 09 - 01:33 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Jul 09 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Jul 09 - 01:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Jul 09 - 11:44 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Jul 09 - 05:51 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Jul 09 - 05:35 AM
Jason Xion Wang 01 Jul 09 - 05:50 AM
Janie 01 Jul 09 - 02:07 AM
GUEST 01 Jul 09 - 12:40 AM
M.Ted 30 Jun 09 - 11:51 PM
Peace 30 Jun 09 - 11:41 PM
GUEST,Mike B. 30 Jun 09 - 11:07 PM
Peace 30 Jun 09 - 06:23 PM
Ron Davies 29 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM
Stringsinger 29 Jun 09 - 09:39 PM
melodeonboy 29 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 29 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 29 Jun 09 - 05:47 PM
Wesley S 29 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM
Tootler 29 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM
the lemonade lady 29 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM
Noreen 29 Jun 09 - 07:26 AM
Smedley 29 Jun 09 - 06:11 AM
the lemonade lady 29 Jun 09 - 04:17 AM
the lemonade lady 29 Jun 09 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Mike B. 28 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM
maple_leaf_boy 28 Jun 09 - 04:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jun 09 - 11:21 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Dani 27 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM
Janie 27 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM
Mooh 27 Jun 09 - 03:38 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 27 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM
Peace 27 Jun 09 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM
Mooh 27 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM
Ron Davies 27 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM
Jean(eanjay) 27 Jun 09 - 09:18 AM
number 6 27 Jun 09 - 07:55 AM
Mooh 27 Jun 09 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Ed 27 Jun 09 - 05:44 AM
Jack Blandiver 27 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM
Eye Lander 27 Jun 09 - 04:41 AM
goatfell 27 Jun 09 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,6 months younger than MJ 27 Jun 09 - 01:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:06 AM

mg sez "I am confused..did he have a younger brother? Sometimes I count six in the Jackson 5 and one seems younger or at least smaller than Michael."

Randy (Steven Randall Jackson) is Michael's younger brother. He is older than Janet, who is the youngest sibling. Both Randy and Janet made several "guest appearances" with the Jackson 5. Later, after Michael left the group to build his solo career, the band reformed in 1976 as "The Jacksons" and Randy joined the group; they signed with Epic Records. Randy co-wrote their hit "Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)" with Michael. He also worked with Michael on Michael's solo recordings.

For reference, Wikipedia lists three generations of the Jackson family on this page.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM

Jon Stewart weighs in about the media coverage of Jackson's death here.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:29 AM

changing faces


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: open mike
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:24 AM

I saw a news report today that mentioned that Michael Jackson made a desperate plea to a nurse a few days before his death stating that he felt cold on one half of his body and hot on the other half. She recommended and/or insisted that he go to a hospital, but he did not follow that advice.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:31 AM

No, it's not funny, it shows that you're tasteless.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: DADGBE
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:33 AM

It's remarkable how quickly the zeitgeist responds to such an event as his death. I was playing a gig today, July 4th, and heard the first of what will probably turn out to be many jokes on the subject. To wit -

Farrah Fawcett died, went to heaven and God granted her a wish. She asked God to protect the children so he knocked off Michael Jackson.

Funny? Perhaps, but it shows the level of charge that folks have about him.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 01:42 PM

"Are all of the brothers so recognizable that people knew who they were immediately?"

Appledore's a small village, so word would get around in no time, I would think, SRS, probably helped along by a few agents here and there.. :0)

Just found...Billie Jean been looking for it for ages, but it wasn't there as 'they' had removed it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 01:40 PM

I am confused..did he have a younger brother? Sometimes I count six in the Jackson 5 and one seems younger or at least smaller than Michael.

Anyway, here is a very good insight from Huffington post.

---------

nerakami I'm a Fan of nerakami permalink

Michael Jackson's death like Princess Diana is an opportunity to give our collective consciousness an outlet to globally mourn. To cry and collectively release all that pent up frustrations and sorrow because of all the horrible things happening that you say we should pay more attention to... oh believe me there are many of us who do pay attention but if some occurrence doesn't come along once in a while allowing us the chance to grieve for our miserable souls - then my friend more and more of us would be jumping off buildings incapable of coping. Let us give thanks for the Universe providing mankind with events in our history that allow us a sense of emotional release. Let us cry and let go the sorrow inside - and then we will wipe our eyes, blow our noses and continue to be bombarded by events demonstrating the horrors of our human nature...


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 11:44 AM

Great story, Lizzie. Are all of the brothers so recognizable that people knew who they were immediately? I wouldn't know any of the Jacksons except Michael, Janet, and LaToya. And LaToya is marginal. If they dress in the "look at me" style we see in celebrity photos that's a clue, but if they just dress in jeans and t-shirts, don't have an entourage, is there a chance at being left alone? For example, in your neighborhood, on your street, if someone famous drove up in a normal non-flashy car and walked into the house, they could probably go in unnoticed and unmolested? In my village I'm sure you could probably go for a walk and not be noticed or bothered. But that's if the individual isn't telegraphing, through apparel or body language "look at me" or "I'm conspicuously trying to not be noticed."

maple_leaf_boy, that "joke" is stupid junior high school boy puerile material. Someone else started a thread that ended after two posts because it contained nothing but that stupidity. Are you 12 years old? Is that why you've tried so many times to get someone to pay attention to you?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 05:51 AM

Excellent, Lizze! Wish we'd known about that on our Devon jaunt a few weeks back - Appledore would have been high on the itinerary...


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 05:35 AM

So, I'm driving to South Devon with a builder friend of mine and we get talking about Michael. We'd just driven past the new Exeter Football Stadium and I was telling him my story above, of when the children and I saw Michael in Exeter. Suddenly he says...

"Yeah, my kids have met some of the Jackson 5. They came to visit their school in Plymouth a few months back."

?

My mouth dropped open, just a fraction...

"Didn't you know The Jacksons love Devon? They come here a lot. I think they've got a place down here somewhere."

????

And my mouth hit the floor.....LOL

The Jackson 5 in Devon

Well, who'd a thought it, eh?

So maybe Michael didn't fly in from the USA that time, he merely popped over from Appledore in North Devon.   :0)

And..taken from the Times on Line link, above:

"The village itself may offer limited diversion. In this pretty historical fishing village, where the Taw and Torridge rivers meet, life centres on the quay, which hosts crabbing contests and Morris Dancing. There is also an ice-cream shop."

There you go, The Jackson 5 possibly watched Morris Dancing in their local Devon village!

Come on, hands up...WHO said that Michael Jackson had no place on Mudcat, no right to be up here in the music section? Shame on you! ;0)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:50 AM

R.I.P.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Janie
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 02:07 AM

I always marvel at the fascination, including my own, with untimely tragedy or death of the famous and gifted, (and also the locally renown and gifted that most, if not all of us, have known in our personal circles.)


It seems it is one part a desire for a heros or gods/goddesses, one part envy, one part empathy, one part self-righteousness, one part shock, and at least one part object lesson on gratitude for the mundane and ordinary and the value of that in our own lives. And certainly a bunch of other parts that I either haven't noticed, or have chosen to not take the time to name here.

Let's let the guy rest in peace. None of us knew him, knew anyone who knew him, or much thought about him until he died.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:40 AM

Going from the sublime to the ridiculous, the following is apparently the result of a collaboration between Tom Paxton and David Buskin.

Let's go to Michael Jackson's house,
The party never stops,
Be sure to bring your jammies,
Well really just the tops.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 11:51 PM

Davey Moore does come to mind, Bruce. Phil Ochs wrote the perfect epitaph for Michael Jsckson, in "The Chords of Fame"

Theyll rob you of your innocence
They will put you up for sale
The more that you will find success
The more that you will fail.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 11:41 PM

IMO, the best version was done by Pete Seeger.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,Mike B.
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 11:07 PM

That song was based on an actual boxing death from the early 60s - Phil Ochs also wrote one about it, although not as good as Dylan's.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:23 PM

Michael Jackson was enormously talented and skilled. I never cared for his music or his writing, but man that guy could perform, entertain and dance. He became tremendously fucked up, and I felt a great sadness--much as I do when I see people getting themselves changed surgically so they can fit someone else's view of what they should look like. He became almost a carricature of himself. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Hell, don't watch TV for twenty years then go watch TV for an evening. I did last night and I found it to be more disgusting than it was when I turned it off 'for good' two decades past. The lame laugh tracks, the jokes that ain't funny, the coiffed hair of men who spend more time in front of the mirror than a teenager getting ready for his first date, the women with collagened lips and breasts.

Michael Jackson's death brings to mind a song by THE Bard.

"by Bob Dylan

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not I," says the referee,
"Don't point your finger at me.
I could've stopped it in the eighth
An' maybe kept him from his fate,
But the crowd would've booed, I'm sure,
At not gettin' their money's worth.
It's too bad he had to go,
But there was a pressure on me too, you know.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not us," says the angry crowd,
Whose screams filled the arena loud.
"It's too bad he died that night
But we just like to see a fight.
We didn't mean for him t' meet his death,
We just meant to see some sweat,
There ain't nothing wrong in that.
It wasn't us that made him fall.
No, you can't blame us at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says his manager,
Puffing on a big cigar.
"It's hard to say, it's hard to tell,
I always thought that he was well.
It's too bad for his wife an' kids he's dead,
But if he was sick, he should've said.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?


"Not me," says the gambling man,
With his ticket stub still in his hand.
"It wasn't me that knocked him down,
My hands never touched him none.
I didn't commit no ugly sin,
Anyway, I put money on him to win.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the boxing writer,
Pounding print on his old typewriter,
Sayin', "Boxing ain't to blame,
There's just as much danger in a football game."
Sayin', "Fist fighting is here to stay,
It's just the old American way.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the man whose fists
Laid him low in a cloud of mist,
Who came here from Cuba's door
Where boxing ain't allowed no more.
"I hit him, yes, it's true,
But that's what I am paid to do.
Don't say 'murder,' don't say 'kill.'
It was destiny, it was God's will."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?"


We as a society turn people into things they're not. I think we did that to him, too. That's all I have to say.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM

It's one thing to smear poor Michael with unproven allegations (other than amazingly stupid behavior) but on this thread somebody else has been smeared: King Canute.

According to the famous legend, he did not in fact want to turn back the waves. Rather he was demonstrating to his courtiers how little power he had against nature (i.e. God). Admittedly part of the good press he received--which has since morphed into a simplistic misunderstanding-- was due to his good relations with the historians of the time (i.e. the Church).


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 09:39 PM

The Hollywood culture produces the drug-infested world of nihilism and self-destruction.
The Eagles got it right when they said, "You can check out but never leave".
Also, "You can't kill the beast".

Brian Wilson, Elvis, MJ and so many others, Baluchi, .............all the dope and denial
can't shut it out.

Americans are fascinated with life in the fast lane. MJ and Sanford have wrapped up
media news. Meanwhile Iraq and Pakistan want America to leave. Khomenei rules Iran with an iron fist. A new coup in Honduras. Health Care with a public option may not get passed. Detainees still don't get a fair trial.

Wesley, Pete Seeger will be remembered for his integrity and bravery when MJ is just a
footnote in pop music culture. MJ's legacy will be that of a victim of child abuse.
All the fame and fortune in the world won't make that go away.

Hollywood is drugged-out-to-lunch.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM

"Truthfully, I was too old to be a fan of Michael Jackson"

Eh?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM

A cautionary tale, this. Truthfully, I was too old to be a fan of Michael Jackson, but I could readily appreciate the talent and the stagecraft he brought to work. His is the story common to many whose parents use their children to enrich and aggrandize themselves. Hollywood is full of them, and of the children of stars and wanna-be stars who can't live up to the hype, the scrutiny and the fast times. This sad soul was a child living out his fantasies in an adult body he was always uncomfortable with. The plastic surgeons, and any other doctors, who enabled him deserve the millstone more than him.

I don't pretend to know the reality of his life, amidst all the accusations and innuendo, who really does? One thing I would counsel;
if you want to be famous, be careful what you wish for.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 05:47 PM

Taken from here.....

From Lisa Marie Presley's Myspace Blog:


>>>"Friday, June 26, 2009

He Knew.

Years ago Michael and I were having a deep conversation about life in general.

I can't recall the exact subject matter but he may have been questioning me about the circumstances of my Fathers Death.

At some point he paused, he stared at me very intensely and he stated with an almost calm certainty, "I am afraid that I am going to end up like him, the way he did."

I promptly tried to deter him from the idea, at which point he just shrugged his shoulders and nodded almost matter of fact as if to let me know, he knew what he knew and that was kind of that.

14 years later   I am sitting here watching on the news an ambulance leaves the driveway of his home, the big gates, the crowds outside the gates, the coverage, the crowds outside the hospital, the Cause of death and what may have led up to it and the memory of this conversation hit me, as did the unstoppable tears.

A predicted ending by him, by loved ones and by me, but what I didn't predict was how much it was going to hurt when it finally happened.

The person I failed to help is being transferred right now to the LA County Coroners office for his Autopsy.

All of my indifference and detachment that I worked so hard to achieve over the years has just gone into the bowels of hell and right now I am gutted.

I am going to say now what I have never said before because I want the truth out there for once.

Our relationship was not "a sham" as is being reported in the press. It was an unusual relationship yes, where two unusual people who did not live or know a "Normal life" found a connection, perhaps with some suspect timing on his part. Nonetheless, I do believe he loved me as much as he could love anyone and I loved him very much.

I wanted to "save him" I wanted to save him from the inevitable which is what has just happened.

His family and his loved ones also wanted to save him from this as well but didn't know how and this was 14 years ago. We all worried that this would be the outcome then.

At that time, In trying to save him, I almost lost myself.

He was an incredibly dynamic force and power that was not to be underestimated.

When he used it for something good, It was the best and when he used it for something bad, It was really, REALLY bad.

Mediocrity was not a concept that would even for a second enter Michael Jackson's being or actions.

I became very ill and emotionally/ spiritually exhausted in my quest to save him from certain self-destructive behavior and from the awful vampires and leeches he would always manage to magnetize around him.

I was in over my head while trying.

I had my children to care for, I had to make a decision.

The hardest decision I have ever had to make, which was to walk away and let his fate have him, even though I desperately loved him and tried to stop or reverse it somehow.

After the Divorce, I spent a few years obsessing about him and what I could have done different, in regret.

Then I spent some angry years at the whole situation.

At some point, I truly became Indifferent, until now.

As I sit here overwhelmed with sadness, reflection and confusion at what was my biggest failure to date, watching on the news almost play by play The exact Scenario I saw happen on August 16th, 1977 happening again right now with Michael (A sight I never wanted to see again) just as he predicted, I am truly, truly gutted.

Any ill experience or words I have felt towards him in the past has just died inside of me along with him.

He was an amazing person and I am lucky to have gotten as close to him as I did and to have had the many experiences and years that we had together.

I desperately hope that he can be relieved from his pain, pressure and turmoil now.

He deserves to be free from all of that and I hope he is in a better place or will be.

I also hope that anyone else who feels they have failed to help him can be set free because he hopefully finally is.

   The World is in shock but somehow he knew exactly how his fate would be played out some day more than anyone else knew, and he was right.


I really needed to say this right now, thanks for listening.

~LMP"

5:15 PM3029 Comments3317 Kudos (Give Kudos) <<<<


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Not to offend anyone here but I wouldn't expect to find accurate or unbiased evaluations of Michael Jacksons talents on a folk music website. And I wouldn't go to Micheal Jacksons fan site to find an accurate evaluation of Pete Seegars talents either.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

Mooh said it all. Michael Jackson was vastly overrated and was a product of the commercial pop world of hype.

Yes he was a good singer, but no better than many others.

Yes it is a pity he had to die relatively young, but I was not a bit surprised when it happened. There were persistent news reports that his health was not good and doubts were being expressed that he would be fit enough for the London Concerts - always denied by his publicity machine of course. Well those rumours proved true - in the ultimate way.

I keep seeing the word genius bandied about. This is becoming a much overworked word and belittles the achievements of real geniuses. Michael Jackson was not among them.

Only time will tell whether any of his achievements will prove lasting.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM

and black, I think?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:26 AM

Lovely tribute, Lizzie.

I still think of him as the little boy he was when singing with the Jackson 5- that lovely, fresh-faced, happy child.

So sad at all that happened to him since.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Smedley
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:11 AM

It's only to be expected that lots of Mudcat people find the hype industry surrounding Jackson to be appalling and loathsome. But under the mountains of industrialised manipulation was one of the finest singers I have ever heard.

It's not one of his best-known tracks, but if you hunt out his cover version of Bill Withers' 'Ain't No Sunshine' you will hear singing of the most extraordinarily gifted and moving soulfulness. 'I Want You Back', 'Don't Stop Til You Get Enough' and 'Billie Jean' are just as phenomenal. Most of his later output was dire - and 'Thriller' is a very silly little song (and it should have been called 'Horror' given the films it references!!) but this doesn't erase how great he was at his best.

Only my opinion, of course.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 04:17 AM

"The nature of Jackson's foibles weren't extraordinary, though their magnitude and their reverberations might be. His finances were a shambles, but so were Ed McMahon's; Jackson's debt, however, was measured in the hundreds of millions of dollars and his assets included publishing rights to hundreds of Beatles songs and the famous, or infamous, Neverland Ranch outside Santa Barbara. Attempts to untangle his personal finances involved Citigroup, Bank of America and Goldman Sachs, Wall Street institutions more accustomed to resuscitating patients such as AIG and General Motors. The luminaries who flocked to his side to lend their assistance in his many hours of need while basking in his reflected glow included Ron Burkle, the Rev. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Johnnie Cochran. Who was exploiting whom in these relationships? It's impossible to say."


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 04:12 AM

I cannot believe how gillible the whole world is... MJ is not dead. He never needs to perform again, he's had practice having not performed for 10 years. He's been flown out and operated on so that he is unrecognisable. He was millions of dollars in debt, now he's 'dead' this will be paid off by all of you buying for his albums, visiting Never Land, and donating to 'the cause'. No bailing out by his family now!all of this crap about his Dr being under suspicion is just a smoke screen, a decoy. Wouldn't you lie for a good pay off? Take the wrap even?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,Mike B.
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM

I don't recall Elvis' death thirty years ago getting nearly the same intensity of media coverage as Jackson's.

Of course there were no 24 hour cable news and entertainment channels back then, but I once heard that the story didn't even lead the evening newscasts on CBS and NBC (only ABC deeming it significant enough).


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:22 PM

I heard that he died of food poisoning.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:21 AM

That is your opinion, GregB, but it was never proved in court. And the family that brought the complaint never moved on to a civil suit for obvious reasons--they'd already tried to get the legal system to flog their victim to get a settlement so they'd drop charges based upon no evidence. They'd have had to produce real evidence in the civil trial. The legal system is great at operating on hear-say.

It is possible to feel very sorry for this guy who had no view of the real world from his strange and sheltered environment. No sense of money, no sense, apparently of the guile that people would use to approach him and prey on his sympathies. I think that family knew enough from insiders to be able to insert themselves into his inner circle, then they tried to cash in. They should have been tried, but I've heard no news of it if it happened.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM

Great TOTP2 tribute on BBC2 right now - check it out!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

Nice, Lizzie. Thanks.

Dani


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Janie
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM

I've never been a fan of Pop music. I actively and intensely dislike listening to Opera. Because I don't like a genre doesn't mean that genre doesn't have it's great performers.

I do love dance and I love theater. I know a lot more about dance than I do about theater or pop music

I never followed MJ's career, but on those occasions where by hapstance I saw a televised performance or music video, I knew I was watching great performances. Although I had seen him perform Thriller on stage on telvesion a number of years ago, and recall how exciting it was, I saw the Thriller video for the first time just a couple of months ago when my son downloaded it from iTunes.   I thought it was awesome. (I'm not real fond of music videos, by the way.)

These threads have piqued my interest, and like probably 3,000,000 other people who are avoiding doing chores on a Saturday, I've been watching MJ videos on YouTube this afternoon, and am working my way through the "Man in the Mirror" segments for which Lizzie provided a link.

I don't know if he was a musical genious or not. It is clear that folks like Quincy Jones and Motown's Goody considered him one. It is also clear that other "greats" from Motown and Pop music considered him to be remarkable gifted. I am coming away with the impression that he is, at least, a performing genius. Watch him dance. Notice how he embodies the music, notice the grace and the impression of weightlessness. Had he chosen to pursue a career in ballet or modern dance, there is little doubt he would have been a star.

I never saw him live. I suspect, though, he had the powerful, charismatic stage presence of Mick Jagger in his prime. (Most charismatic live performer I ever saw, reaching me all the way back in the bleachers on the 50 yard line of the Gator Bowl in Jacksonville. Jagger's power never came across in the television and video performances I occasionally saw. MJ's power does.

Based on what one could read in the news over the years, MJ appears to have become personally weird, to say the least, but I don't think anyone outside of his immediate circle really knows, or really knows if he became "weirder" than a lot of other icons who lived out their short lives under the relentless lense of fame and publicity.

Pablo Picasso, if you have read any of his biographies, was a sick, unpleasant, missogynistic man. He was also a great artist. I would hope that, whether or not one likes pop music, highly produced music, dance, or has a negative opinion of Michael Jackson the person based on the publicity around him over the years, that one can still respect and appreciate his artistry.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:38 PM

Shimrod is quite correct. I've been reading "Music, The Brain, And Ecstasy" by Robert Jourdain. In it he describes, among other things, the genius of some of the greatest musicians. Sorry folks, MJ barely qualifies as bush league.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM

Has the word OVERATED surfaced yet? and that's putting it mildly.

One is hard put to realise that Tamala Motown produced both Michael Jackson and a REAL musical great, Smokey Robinson.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:15 PM

Say what you really mean, Shimrod.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

"...let alone by the singular genius (and I don't use the word lightly) that was Michael Jackson."

Michael jackson was NOT a genius - calling him one devalues the word!
Newton was a genius as were Galileo, Michaelangelo, Leonardo, Einstein, Darwin, Mozart, Beethoven and Alan Turing.

Newton told us that "he stood on the shoulders of giants". Michael Jackson stood on a 4 billion ton mountain of hype and bullshit!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM

biLL - "What's happening over in Iran in the last 2 days?"

Right on.

Didn't they stop to mourn MJ like the rest of the world? I keep hearing what an international star he was, how everyone in the world adored him, blah blah blah. I could just puke. I pity him and those who invested themselves in him, but the world is a much bigger place than this.

Someone asked me how it was that I wasn't influenced by MJ, being involved in the music industry and all. Well, because I listen to non-pop, un-pop, and don't subscribe to the pop lifestyle. MJ just wasn't in my radar nor did I want him to be.

It is a shame that his life had to malfunction as it did, and it was an untimely death, but not unforeseeable. Why is anybody surprised?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM

Jake Goody was a consummate dancer and a genius?   Is that all?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:18 AM

Lizzie, I love what you wrote. I've just watched your Beat It link - absolutely brilliant.

Michael Jackson was truly amazing.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:55 AM

"An aside: A society which allows itself to descend into the kind of celebrity fixated hero-worship that we see here is truly misguided and deluded."

so true Mooh, so true.

what's happening over in Iran in the last 2 days?

biLL


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:25 AM

He was absolutely no influence on me (or mine) other than to repulse me. I heartily disliked his music from the start, and his persona reeked of self-servitude and self-absorption. There is doubt as to how much of his music was of his own composition, arrangement, or production (there were plenty of contributors on the recordings), and his actual influence beyond the pop entertainment world is negligible. For example, in ten years of music instruction I have never once been asked for his music, or had him listed as a like or influence by students. As self-titled king of pop he was a pretender who was dethroned years ago.

That said, I understand that others admire him, and his demise will saturate the airwaves for a while. Another reason to avoid the "news" programs...

...but, I've been reading and watching way too much about MJ (it's a weird cultural phenomenon), but what strikes me are 2 things: the over-the-top hyperbole describing his accomplishments, and the apologists for his actions, especially on all the news channels.

From what I can discern, the man was a head case who never got his personal life together, blaming others for things, excusing his behavior, victimizing employees and others in positions of trust, being irresponsible with his considerable fortune, self-aggrandizing like a dictator, manipulating personal and sexual relationships. He was no role model, yet he seemed to show no outward shame.

We are what we make of ourselves, and if he was such a tortured soul, he only had himself to blame.

An aside: A society which allows itself to descend into the kind of celebrity fixated hero-worship that we see here is truly misguided and deluded.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:44 AM

Wot Suibhne O'Piobaireachd said.

I was born in 1967 and was 14 when Thriller came out. It inevitably formed an aural backdrop to those impressionable years. That I then moved to The Byrds, and REM, then Caravan and Pink Floyd, then Fairport and Steeleye to eventually land on Walter Pardon (not literally) is OK isn't it?

Or should I shun everything 'non folkie' and go along with Virginia Tam's ridiculous [Jackson's songs] all sounded the same with exception of Ben


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM

In echo of what SRS said back there, it's obvious Mudcat isn't so much about Folk as it is about Folkies, and few Folkies in my experience would be so limited in their musical appreciations not to have been touched by music other than Folk, let alone by the singular genius (and I don't use the word lightly) that was Michael Jackson.

One might move onto the Folkloric / Fortean significance of his manifest eccentricity (this was the man who attempted the buy the skeleton of Joseph Carey Merrick after all) but that must be a discussion for another place and another time. Right now it's enough that this obituary has its place above the line on Mudcat and that Folkies are listening to music other than Folk.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: Eye Lander
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:41 AM

Yay Lizzie! I don't have the skills to write like you, but thank you, you have said everything that I feel.



Jillie


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:53 AM

who is jake goody and his band because I haven't heard of them either


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Subject: RE: Obit: Michael Jackson -age 50- Jun 2009
From: GUEST,6 months younger than MJ
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:27 AM

serious..

anyone aware of a 'folk' tinted track on any of Jackos releases ???
..even just a traditional 'folk' instrument prominent in the mix ????


"Gospel" ?, I'm not qualified to comment..
but if gospel is considered here as 'Folk' ?

even any evidence of that..???


Ok, clutching straws, but just something, anything
to appease the hardline
separitist unforgiving folkzis....


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