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Billy Bragg and incitement to violence

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Leadfingers 18 Jun 09 - 07:09 PM
Peace 18 Jun 09 - 06:30 PM
Stringsinger 18 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM
Lox 18 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Neil D 18 Jun 09 - 02:27 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 18 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM
Wolfgang 18 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM
Ringer 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM
Dave Sutherland 17 Jun 09 - 08:05 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 06:51 AM
treewind 17 Jun 09 - 06:43 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 05:52 AM
Lox 17 Jun 09 - 05:42 AM
Ringer 17 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM
Tug the Cox 16 Jun 09 - 08:12 PM
Lox 16 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM
Ringer 16 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM
Folkiedave 16 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 16 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM
Tug the Cox 16 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM
Lox 16 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM
Ringer 16 Jun 09 - 09:03 AM
Lox 16 Jun 09 - 07:32 AM
Tug the Cox 16 Jun 09 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,ifor 16 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM
Peace 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 AM
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Rifleman (inactive) 15 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:09 PM

100


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:30 PM

That comes from a man who's been there and done that. Good one, Frank. With greatest respect.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

A world war was fought to rid the world of fascism. Now it rears its ugly head in Britain.
And other places in the world.

There's a lesson here.

If you want to conduct a movement, you can just go around beating people up. Appeasement is a lot about violence that goes no where. Maybe some get off on beating their chests and venting their anger but no social movement was ever completed based on this.

I gather from Billy Bragg that he would encourage a social movement like the FAF as a real antidote to hot-headed and meaningless rants and raves.

"You say you want a revolution?"   

Then stop spouting and get active.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM

Wolfgang is as ever the voice of reason.

I have been reflecting on this thread and my reaction to Ringers questioning and I would like to retract what in fact do constitute unfounded assumptions/assertions about him/her.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:47 PM

eil it's been my experience that there are some people who seem to think that you can simply "talk" to the BNP membership and their ilk and everything will be alright (it won't). The BNP understands the concept of violence only too well, it's part of the foundation upon which the party concepts are built.

Mr. Bragg got it right.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:27 PM

MR. Braggs comment echoes a quote of Woody Allen that I read in another thread. I don't remember it exactly so I'll paraphrase as close as I can. I'll defend with my life the fascists right to march in the streets, then I'll meet them there with a baseball bat. He also once said: "sometimes the best way to explain things to a fascist is with a baseball bat". I don't recall anyone trying to make an issue of Woody Allen and incitement to violence.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM

"among the 61 % non-voters the opinions to some questions are very different from those of the the 39 % voters."

Then JUST maybe they should have voted in the first place!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM

Do you know how many people were quizzed in the Mori poll?

No?

1004.

Is that as comprehensive as 39% of the British population?

No.

yet it constitutes evidence and a national election doesn't?

Your icy grip on reason is looking decidedly irrational ...


The 1004 are an unbiased sample whereas the 39% of the British population are a self-selected sample which most likely is not representative. It is conceivable that among the 61 % non-voters the opinions to some questions are very different from those of the the 39 % voters.

To trust the result from the fewer people more than the result from the many is in fact rational. Your opinion had a much higher probability of being correct than Ringer's objection even before knowing the result of a survey, but there was still a minuscule grain of doubt possible.

Ringer was kind of stubborn, but not irrational.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM

Do you know how many people were quizzed in the Mori poll?

No?

1004.

Is that as comprehensive as 39% of the British population?

No.

yet it constitutes evidence and a national election doesn't?

Your icy grip on reason is looking decidedly irrational ...


hmmm ... you remind me of somebody ...


The election does serve as evidence. The Mori poll just serves to add to it.

As for your views ... your tone - right to the end - indicates an attempt to undermine my position.

We do not exist in a vaccuum and you have your motivations for needing to cross examine me.

I don't know what your reasons are, but your purported abstract impartiality indicates that you either overlooked or ignored the context of this thread and the nature of some of the exchanges, or maybe that you simply don't understand why people think this issue is so important or that you don't give a monkeys or that you are a BNP supporter looking for an opening ... I suppose their are a multitude of possible hypotheses ...

... I would venture that your comments concerning my moral high ground suggest that you felt yours was somehow threatened by my comments.[Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM]

Either way it does not matter as my position remains unaffected.

Finally, your deeply sarcastic congratulations indicate to me that reading the evidence I provided was a bitter pill for you to swallow.

Oh well.

Now - do you have something constructive to add or will you be subjecting us to more pointless diversions?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM

Congratulations, Lox: evidence at last. That wasn't too difficult, was it? I accept the results of the Mori poll.

Since you ask about assumptions you have made about me, I refer you to the last sentence of your post at 16 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM, where you purport to know that my views contrast with yours.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:05 AM

Folkiedave
"What evidence is there for the second half of that?

Try taking the black players out of Premier League football teams. See if there is an outcry."

Try taking the black players out of our league Dave and most teams would struggle to field eleven players.
I know we would!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:51 AM

Awesome - thanks Treewind.

I forgot to test it after I posted it.

No need now.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:43 AM

Fixed your link

A.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM

More evidence ... (young people this time)

Which is reassuring as it shows that the next generation, ie the ones who will live with the legacy of multiculturalism, are the ones who want it most.

So as we fuddy duddied with our ingrained hang ups shuffle off this mortal coil we will leave behind a more tolerant society.

Warms the heart to know my daughter is going to live in such a mature age.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:52 AM

Shucks - I've had to take nearly 30 seconds of my time to find more evidence.

Boy that was tough!!

Mori poll showing 65% preference for multicultural Britain.

That would be a majority ... ei ... erm ... most ...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:42 AM

"You responded with irrelevant data on numbers not voting for the BNP"

Wrong.

I provided evidence of the mojority choosing parties with pluralist platforms.

They chose pluralist policies in preference to racist policies.

"But I don't admit your figures"

They aren't my figures, they are the official EU election results.

It doesn't matter whether you admit them or not, they remain the reality.


"I've made no statements that require evidence, Lox,"

But you have attempted to cast doubt over my assertion as follows.

"there's a big difference between not voting BNP and liking the fact that Britain is a multicultural society."

The evidence so far still supports my assertion.

In a court of law, the casting of reasonable doubt must be supported by evidence or it is disregarded as meaningless.

Do you have anything meaningful to add?

"... and make assumptions about what I think ..."

Can you provide evidence of assumptions I have made about you?


No - I didn't think so.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM

I've made no statements that require evidence, Lox, and have given no indication of my views on multiculturalism, so you can't contrast our views (well, you can, as you've demonstrated, but can do so only in ignorance -- but, hey, let's not let ignorance get in the way, shall we?).

You asserted that most Brits liked Britain's multiculturalism. I asked for evidence of that. You responded with irrelevant data on numbers not voting for the BNP and make assumptions about what I think.

I find very irritating the smug, sanctimonious and self-righteous assumptions of many posters here that they have the moral high ground, that any questioning of their views must therefore be malign.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:12 PM

So who is he a dead ringer for? 'Dead' ringer....mmmmmm, don't.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM

Like it or not, most registered voters chose pluralist parties with explicitly pluralist platfroms.

That post ook me less than a minute to research.

It may not be comprehensive evidence, but it is evidence nonetheless.

If you disagree you may have to read what evidence is in a dictionary.



By the way, at least I provided something.


You on the other hand have have not even attempted to supply evidence to the contrary.

When you do I'll take you more seriously.

Till then, the only evidence provided on this thread supports my view and not yours.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM

Well Ringer alright, I'll brak it down into sound bytes, which most can understand, note I said most....

first..."'Only one thing could have stopped us, if our opponents had, at the beginning, crushed us mercilessly under their heels.

You understand that bit I'm hoping, it's fairly obvious...

and..."Once we had been allowed to gain momnentum, we were unstoppable"

*sigh* there...go and learn those two sections by heart, there will be a test to follow.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM

No evidence, then, I gather, Lox.

Even if I admit your figures, then 96% of a turnout of 35% is hardly "most Brits."

But I don't admit your figures, because there's a big difference between not voting BNP and liking the fact that Britain is a multicultural society.

Rifleman: I don't understand your post. I have ignored your Hitler quotation because it has nothing to say that I wish to comment on and doesn't seem to provide any answer to questions I wish to ask. You'll have to explain the irony to me, I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM

What evidence is there for the second half of that?

Try taking the black players out of Premier League football teams. See if there is an outcry.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM

"'Only one thing could have stopped us, if our opponents had, at the beginning, crushed us mercilessly under their heels. Once we had been allowed to gain momnentum, we were unstoppable"

Notice how Ringer and its ilk ignore this one ? *LOL*

Herr Hitler provides the opposition with the answer..the irony is quite wonderful...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM

He would have to Troll through the archives to find some.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM

This site for starters.

How many anti BNP remarks are ther and how many pro BNP remarks.

Facebook - how many members of pro BNP groups and how many members of Anti BNP groups.

Most importantly - how many registered voters chose political parties with racially inclusive platforms in preference to parties with racially exclusive platforms.

I'll tell you how many 93.69% of them.

I reckon that qualifies as most.

Even without UKIP we're talking 77.87% of them.


Still most.


http://www.elections2009-results.eu/en/united_kingdom_en.html


Apart from that, just about everyone I meet with few exceptions.


Do you have evidence to counter that view?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:03 AM

"...Britain is a multicultural society and most Brits do like this fact."

What evidence is there for the second half of that?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:32 AM

Tug,

Agreed, but one must be sure that one cruches effectively.

If as a result of my actions the BNP get more positive publicity, or get to persuade people that I am the thug, or if as a result of my actions I end up in Jail, or indeed if a riot happens and people die, and if as a consequence the streets become that little bit less safe, then I have failed utterly.

The way to crush it is to expose the the ideology for what it really is and to expose its advocates for who they really are.

As has been pointed out numerous times on numerous threads, Britain is a multicultural society and most Brits do like this fact. Most Brits do indeed abhor the idea of scapegoating ethnic minorities, gays and the disabled. Most people love to claim that they are friends, for whatever reason, with at least one person from each of these sectors of society. Some are more sincere than others, but it is a far cry from believing they should be excluded from society.

Crush it by hanging it out to dry.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:09 AM

Perhaps we can allow ( though probably not) Adolph Hitler to have the last word. When asked to account for the totally unexpected rise of his unpopular little and marginalised group into total dictators of Germany in the space of a few years, he remarked ( something like)
'Only one thing could have stopped us, if our opponents had, at the beginning, crushed us mercilessly under their heels. Once we had been allowed to gain momnentum, we were unstoppable.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

When the BNP opened its "bookshop" in Welling,South London in the early 1990s racist attacks soon began to dramatically increase.These culminated in the savage group attack on Stephen Lawrence by a gang of racist thugs. Some 60000 anti fascists marched to get the BNP HQ closed down and to protest at the attacks.
More recently ,just a few weeks ago,Nick Griffin,stood at the very spot where Anthony Walker a young black teenager was brutally killed in Liverpool again by some race haters ,to say that the attack was not racist.
Of course we can educate and organise against fascists and indeed carry out the social justice policies on housing and jobs that can undercut their appeal but we also need to confront them when they start to march and organise. It is so much easier to defeat a handful of fascists rather than a marching column of the thugs.
ifor


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 AM

But, then, I doubt he'd even consider allowing that to happen.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:08 AM

"The way Jack Campin so flippantly throws out death threats (smashing my brains in) says it all, or is that just more irony?"

NO person from the BNP is worthy of shining that man's shoes. In UK argot, piss off, Fairplay.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

"The way Jack Campin so flippantly throws out death threats (smashing my brains in) says it all, or is that just more irony?"

This would be laughable coming from a BNP apologist, if it wasn't so hypocritical, considering past and present tactics by said BNP


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

I refer you to my post of 12 June @ 2.45 about the honouring by Spain of surviving International Brigades veterans as broadcast on Today which prompted me to join FaF.

I concluded with: If the International Brigaders had the bottle to stand up to fascism with whatever arms they could lay hands on, so should we.

Not to concur is to insult the International Brigaders, many of whom came fresh from defeating the Mosleyites in Cable Street. There are many songs about both that can and should be used to silence the fascists.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: BB
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

"the lily-livered apologist above"

You have nothing whatsoever to base that on - I have read this thread without any comment for or against, but merely drew attention to what you actually said.

It may well be that you nor Billy meant it to be taken literally, but there was no indication of that in what you said, and bearing in mind your frequently aggressive and beligerent posts, it could well have been that you meant it literally. Personally, I prefer people to say what they mean so that there can be no misunderstanding. As I'm sure you would agree, there are 'dim' people out there, or simply those who don't expect to have to read between the lines to understand what someone is saying.

As to my own stance, I am totally anti-BNP and all they stand for, and am not afraid to say so, but I am also against physical violence and would not contemplate using it in other than direct defence.

If that doesn't suit you, I am happy to agree to differ, without throwing unmerited insults around.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 03:44 AM

Some perspective: background on your elected representative, Andrew Brons, in the Guardian


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:12 PM

Fairplay,

Just in case you missed it on another thread,

Have a look at this.

BNP Press officer explains how black peoples genetic inferiority is to blame for their being more disposed than whites to violence crime etc ...

Heres the video


Would any BNP supporters, perhaps MBSGeorge, like to explain or justify the points made here?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: fairplay
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:15 PM

The most disturbing aspect of the rise of the BNP is the re-emergence of the Far Left and its exploitation of so-called 'antifascism' to serve its own agenda.

The way Jack Campin so flippantly throws out death threats (smashing my brains in) says it all, or is that just more irony?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

Icecreammaker,

Just because you don't understand the basic construct of a humorous punchline used at the end of a serious point, nor the substance of that point, which is that democratic means are more effective (i.e he is advocating the use of democratic means) That doesn't mean that the irony isn't there.

The irony (as you clearly need it spelled out to you) is that he quips about duffing them up in the street while making a serious point about keeping faith with the democratic system, while the BNP on the other hand pay lip servie to democracy but actually go round duffing people up in the street.

You see?

No?

Its ok I don't expect you to.

Vigilantism is what the BNP do when they round up a posse to picket a Paediatricians house in Portsmouth.


Cos you know ... apparently we need to be wary of paediatricians ...


So there's two words the BNP don't understand ...

... oh I forgot ... and democracy ...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

So, uh, the BNP loves to dish it out but hates to take it, and this makes Billy Bragg a bad guy?

Give it a rest.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Icecreammaker
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:39 PM

In a 2004 article in The Guardian, Bragg was quoted as saying:

The British National Party would probably make it [into a parliament elected by proportional representation], too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of.

Where's the irony? No 'political' violence here, just plain vigilanti-ism.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM

"I am disturbed that one or two people here have quoted, and seemingly endorsed, Billy Bragg's approval of political violence against the BNP."

I have one question: wtf is "political violence"?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM

...It's akin to the KKK having two senators elected in the US...

Well, there's David Duke ....

There's plenty of white supremecists in positions of political power in the U.S. of A. They just don't wear it on their sleeves like the BNP.

Which may make them more dangerous-


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 07:00 AM

Fred abd Backwoodsman,

I actually completely agree with you.

It can be a mistake to wax too poetical when confronting these kinds of issues as there will always be some pedantic critic who selectively chooses some quote out of context to use against its originator.

Clear unambiguous language may be boring but it is the only way to tackle the matter.

Also, complicated conceptual arguments are a waste of time and will only result in discussions quickly becoming bogged down in irrelevant detail.


Strategies change over time as different parties evolve and grow.

The BNP have changed their style and image in recent years to try and gain more support.

They now wish to sell themselves as reasonable democratic folks and they wish to portray their opponents as undemocratic thugs.

In the old days when they were more honest, they could be confronted with the type of Irony used by Billy Bragg.

They have learned a lesson in public image from the tabloids however, that you can ruin a persons reputation by lying about them and misquoting them.

So as you say, clarity is the key.

In addition, the emphasis must be placed on production of evidence.

When an assertion is made about the BNP, it must be backed up with evidence and peoplke must be told where they can verify information given.

That way, when the BNP refuse to match you with their own verifiable evidence it becomes clear that their views are unsupported and their claims untrue.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:11 AM

"Rather intrigued to know why the BNP Candidate thread in BS has been closed? I thought it was very typical of many Mudcat threads in that it contained robust disagreement."

If it has, I think it's no bad thing. I'm all for robust debate, and I'm all for exposing the BNP as a bunch of fascist thugs. But the way these threads keep descending into mud-slinging matches is regrettable to put it mildly.

On the question of incitement to violence, this is a very dangerous policy to pursue. Whatever its internal makeup, the BNP for the moment outwardly poses as a peacable constitutional political party. I have no doubt it will shed that image when the political time is right. When that time arises, egg throwing and "duffing them up in the street" (if that's what Bragg actually said), will have given them just the opportunity they need to form their own paramilitary wing, and take their idiotic ideology onto the streets. There they will wreak havoc, not just amongst anti-fascists, but against all liberal/left opinion, to say nothing of Muslims, Asians, gays, trade unionists and anyone else they disapprove of.

Remember, it took just one half crazed Dutch anarchist to burn down the Reichstag. That gave Hitler all the excuse he needed to trigger off the bloodiest pogrom in history.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:00 AM

Rather intrigued to know why the BNP Candidate thread in BS has been closed? I thought it was very typical of many Mudcat threads in that it contained robust disagreement.

The posts much earlier on were hostile to the OP (this I have no comment on). However it wasn't closed at that point, when there were *expressions of hostility towards the OP*, but much later after those had ceased and the thread had moved on to far more general and civil debate.

As it has long moved on to more general debate, and recent postings are no different on that thread, than any other exchange of opinion as may be found virtually anywhere on Mudcat, I am puzzled.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:21 AM

In my first year lining in UK (2003), riding a First bus in Chelmsford on my way home after work, one of those race haters boarded and commenced to striding up and down the aisle though there were seats available.

He didn't say anything to any one on the bus, but you could tell he was itching to vent on something or someone. Maybe drink or drugs was involved. Soon there was a cyclist in turban and khurta, riding just ahead of us. The skin head on the bus went mental. Screaming (and I do mean screaming) obscenities and names like "Paki" at the cyclist as we passed him.

I was stunned and afraid. I wanted to say something. Clearly the driver (older white male) the bus wasn't going to do anything, nor were other passengers. But being new to England and having a distinct foreign accent, I just bit my lip. I had planned to get off at the next stop but the young monster beat me to it. I feared he was going back toward that cyclist.

I have to say, I don't know what I'd do if that happened today. I am different than I was 6 years ago. Less fearful in many ways. I hope I would go to the driver and require that such a passenger be put off.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:47 AM

Social policies, justice and, above all else, education are what will defeat the BNP. And through the ballot box.

TBE - "I was endorsing Billy Bragg's (oh the shame of sharing initials with the lily-livered apologist above) entirely reasonable exhortation to duff the fascists up in the street (not necessarily literally, for the elucidation of the dim)."

I, and I'm sure many others here, understand what you're saying but, unfortunately, you've missed the point. It's the 'dim' (as you describe those whom you presume to be less gifted in the grey-cell department than yourself) who are the very ones who should be spoken to in absolutely unambiguous terms, because they are the very ones who are most likely to fail to recognise 'irony' and take what they hear and read literally - and indeed they are the ones the BNP target in their quest for support. They're not trying to attract Great Thinkers - just the You're-Gonna-Get-Your-Fuckin'-Head-Kicked-In Brigade.

And do you believe that the BNP will tell their targetted public that BB was only being 'ironic' and to take no notice? Not likely - if and when it suits their purpose they will use that sort of statement as a rallying-cry to their new-found supporters. What better way to fire up hatred than by quoting public threats of violence by high-profile figures against themselves and their supporters? What better way to convince TBE's 'dim' of the paucity of the arguments of those who oppose the BNP? FFS, why hand them the ammunition?

In the War Of Words with the BNP it was a real gaffe, a bad choice of words by someone who ought to know better. Period.

I understand people's outrage at the policies and methods of the BNP. I'm outraged too. But social policies, justice, education and the ballot box - these are The Only True Path.
IMHO


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:36 AM

"So how often do you hear genuinely intended violence described as "perfectly reasonable duffing up"

No - this is said with bitter irony."

The problem is, Lox, that the written word has to be very skilfully written if feelings like 'irony' are to be conveyed. And, sadly, these nuances are easily missed by the reader, as seems to be evident on here.

BB (who is a thoroughly decent, intelligent and civilised man, and a respected political commentator) may not have intended his words to be taken literally but, unfortunately, they will be, by those who it suits or who don't have the intelligence to recognise 'irony'. As evidenced by a fair number of posts on here (some from surprising directions).

A good writer/orator needs to be unambiguous in his choice of words - coded messages aren't a good way to get a message across to the masses.

Exhortations to violence have no place in civilised society - except as the absolute last resort, and in the face of imminent attack by an aggressor. We're a long way from that place right now - two swallows do not a Summer make, and the BNP have a very long way to go before they achieve any real presence in UK politics.

IMHO
10/4


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

Also, BB, check out the language used.

You are English yes?

you have some experience of life yes?

So how often do you hear genuinely intended violence described as "perfectly reasonable duffing up"

No - this is said with bitter irony.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

BB

Ask any person on this thread if any member of the BNP should be sought out and assaulted.

You'll might get a flippant response like the ones above, but when it comes to action and organization that isn't how any mudcatters act.

Now go and check out the BNP's "redwatch" - in case you didn't know, this exists to make public the names and addresses of those who publicly oppose the BNP for the specific purpose of making it possible to seek them out and intimidate them, abuse them, put faeces in their letterboxes or physically attack them.

I specifically advocate providing information that shows who the BNP are and I advocate demanding evidence of BNP claims.

I believe that BNP advocates can easily be challenged in this way and that they should always be challenged in this way to make sure that they remain out of power.

That is how I think they should be dealt with.


However, I do agree with the 'substance' of the points made above - that BNP thugs do 'deserve' a good kicking.

The comments above suggest that they deserve it on the one hand and on the other hand they warn the BNP that if they come looking for trouble they can expect to meet with stiff resistance.

The reality is that while the above is all words, the BNP have a history of actually seeking out and assaulting people of various groups with intent to injure.


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