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Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease

GUEST,punkfolkrocker 13 Mar 09 - 08:30 PM
Joe Offer 13 Mar 09 - 08:41 PM
katlaughing 13 Mar 09 - 09:01 PM
Joe_F 13 Mar 09 - 09:11 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Mar 09 - 10:10 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Mar 09 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 14 Mar 09 - 02:22 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Mar 09 - 02:56 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 14 Mar 09 - 03:20 AM
Joe Offer 14 Mar 09 - 04:05 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Mar 09 - 05:02 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Mar 09 - 05:17 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Mar 09 - 05:18 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Mar 09 - 05:20 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Mar 09 - 05:33 AM
The Villan 14 Mar 09 - 05:52 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Mar 09 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Mar 09 - 08:12 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Mar 09 - 08:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Mar 09 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Ed 14 Mar 09 - 08:38 AM
katlaughing 14 Mar 09 - 12:34 PM
Joe Offer 14 Mar 09 - 08:33 PM
Joe_F 14 Mar 09 - 09:00 PM
katlaughing 15 Mar 09 - 12:20 AM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 09 - 01:49 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM
CamiSu 15 Mar 09 - 02:21 AM
Megan L 15 Mar 09 - 03:57 AM
Sleepy Rosie 15 Mar 09 - 04:03 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Mar 09 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Mar 09 - 04:14 AM
The Villan 15 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,punkfolckrocker 15 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Mar 09 - 04:51 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Mar 09 - 04:57 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Mar 09 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Mar 09 - 05:09 AM
The Villan 15 Mar 09 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Mar 09 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Mar 09 - 05:32 AM
The Villan 15 Mar 09 - 05:33 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Mar 09 - 05:56 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Mar 09 - 06:00 AM
The Villan 15 Mar 09 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Mar 09 - 06:35 AM
The Villan 15 Mar 09 - 06:39 AM
Liz the Squeak 15 Mar 09 - 06:49 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Mar 09 - 07:00 AM
Georgiansilver 15 Mar 09 - 09:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humor-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:30 PM

and many sincere thanks Joe and Mick
for not capitulating to the loud irrational demands for deletion of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humor-laughing at death/disease
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:41 PM

Being the father of an (aging) punk rocker, I've thought a lot about this over almost twenty years (he's now 36). This thread is helping me understand. Maybe shocking jokes and lyrics and art are meant as a challenge against shallowness and smarminess.

The people who shriek in protest against Jesus in urine or the Virgin Mary buried in dung - how many of them really care, and how many protest out of some sort of shallow righteousness? Does faith really mean anything to these people, or are they just trying to maintain the respectability of their religious practices?

The cabaret songs and acts of 1920s Berlin were very shocking - and very interesting. One of their main purpose was to spit in the face of the prudish self-righteousness of the NSDAP - the Nazis.

And what about dead baby jokes and now Jade Goody jokes? Could it be that these jokes are meant to question the smarminess and shallow sympathy of people who really don't know Jade Goody and really don't care about her?

I have to say I am shocked by all of these forms of "art" - but still, they make me think, make me question myself and my values. I get no joy out of this sort of humor or art - but I see a purpose in it, distasteful though it may be. These shocking expressions are a direct challenge to our own self-righteousness - and we all suffer from a heavy dose of self-righteousness.

-Joe-


P.S. I go to my son's concerts about once every two years - that's about all I can stand. And it really pisses me off when I have to pay to see my own kid perform...
(I sometimes get comp tickets - depends on the promoter)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:01 PM

Richard, perhaps because she is not dead, yet? Who knows?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humor-laughing at death/disease
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:11 PM

An army was retreating in a great hurry, and a soldier was running & heard a man on the ground yell "Hey, buddy, can you help me? My leg has been shot off." So he picked him up & ran as best he could, but then a cannon ball came by and knocked off the wounded man's head. Soon another soldier exclaimed "What the hell are you doing carrying that headless corpse?" He looked down & said "I'll be damned -- he said it was his leg."

*

Death is nature's way of telling us to slow down.

*

God came down to earth twice: The first time, He brought death, and the second time, seeing His mistake, He brought Hell.

*

One death is a tragedy; a hundred deaths are a disaster; a million deaths are a statistic.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:10 PM

About my OP.

Call me naive but I thought it best to keep it brief without labouring the point - that only became necessary when people missed it so completely. Personally I don't think it gets any clearer than A very public celebrity death, which raises all sorts of issues & provokes all sorts of responses, but the most immediate folkloric angle is the humour... - covers the ground quite nicely and in no way does this account for the ensuing righteous hysteria, which is worthy of a paper in itself.

The key, I guess, was FOLKLORE.

Nice to see the Cow East the Piper threads - a fine piece of truly gruesome gallows humour, and a lovely song / story to boot.

Brian O' Linn met the devil one day,
Who showed him a girl lying dead in the hay;
with her he did sport 'til the night it crept in -
There's no chance of child, said Brian O'Linn!

Brian O'Linn he did fuck an old horse
But he got himself stuck and to make matters worse
the horse it ran into the market square then -
Still, they can't see me dick, says Brian O'Linn!

And Brian O'Linn in his coffin did lie;
Dressed up in his best with clean boots and a tie;
Six foot underground and the grave all filled in -
Ah, they can't hear me knocking, says Brian O'Linn!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:48 PM

For Joe F - above - those are good - thank you for posting - and please bring more when you find them.

For those posting EXAMPLES - it would be helpful for future researchers if you could note the approximate contact you had with the material :
Location (England - Wales, Eastern USA, Church Camp in Illinois
Year (late 1950's, my father heard it in the war)
Situation (telling jokes with friends)
Or source (book - webpage - uncle - playground kid)

OK - Looks like it is time for the special filter to be activated by the clone on the throne.

Obviously, some of us are mature adults. Some of us have "issues" and require tissues.

For myself - I will gladly share the Austic/Ausberger/Special-Ed/Dislexic/Retard jokes I heard at a 2009 Super Bowl party.. ( Brit's the "Super Bowl" is a celebration of the best in American toilet cleanser advertising - next to Germany - America is the biggest consumer of "Supper Bowels.")

I would love to rise to the gauntlet tossed by Villan - but I will wait until the clones enact the special filter. I am on good behavior.

I suggest that those of a more "sensitive nature" kindly bow aside - if you cannot - then the special filter should be enacted. (They have used it on me - and I KNOW it works - you are seeing a kinder, gentler, G....consider it a "cyber-straight-jacket"...one other poster in this thread has had it applied...or been very sick ... or been traveling.)

If people are a "little uncomfortable" ....then they make jokes....if a situation is horrific they do not....if the person has been raised to ICON status....jokes will follow....blasting ICONs is a Western tradition - Religious Leaders, Politicians, Death, - every one that rises above the rest will - like the Korean (ain't that an oxymoron source) saying - The nail that stands out .... will be hammered.

In the genre of similar morbid-folk-humor - are the Helen Keller ones...there is NO CONNECTION TO REALITY .... they are "jokes" based on an absurd premise - we ALL (most of us) KNOW that the situation presented is fanciful....You almost want to laugh at the "set up line" - who could imagine "Helen Keller's parents" wanting to "punish" her? - It IS part of humor.

There are dozens of these:

Q: How did Helen Keller burn her hands?
A: Trying to read the waffle- iron.

Q: How did Helen Keller parents punish her?
A: They moved the furniture.

Q: How did Helen Keller break her wrists?
A: Screaming for help when she fell down the well.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

RE: "cope" and "mechanism" that were questioned above - I do not believe that "cope" is a good usage - if you are "coping" you are not realistic - drinking to drunkenness is a temporary coping process - humor is not coping it is acceptance of the irony with the situation (and most western humor is ironic - situational, dramatic, or verbal)..............regarding "mechanism" this is mechanical - we are human we are not machines. For over a decade I have shared an opposite view to one specific poster in this thread. We agree to disagree


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:22 AM

ahhh.. what a nice sweeeeeet song..



its maybe not the most shocking post-punk anti-authoritarian death oriented protest song ...

but i like it and doubt if its ever been sung better..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K1BdDVvV9Q


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:56 AM

Jade Goody has stated that she is "ready to go to heaven".

Looks like cancer isn't going to be the last bad news she hears.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 03:20 AM

..just gone 7.00 am and finishing up the last drop of my last bottle of 50'th Birthday nice quality malt..

..all night mellow session listening to good music..

and now by complete coincedence on my Flac random jukebox

.. Lou Reed's "Magic and Loss" CD

recorded when he was the same age I am now..

and the songs are all about cancer and death...


g'night....


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 04:05 AM

Little Willie is a wickedly funny little song - from the 1890's, the DT says.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:02 AM

Gallows Humour? Fine, after the subject is dead. I have no quarrel whatsoever with the concept of laughing at death, it's a normal reaction in human beings to make fun of the things they fear (or even just don't fancy) and, like most people, I've done my share. Sadly, the OP title, and some of the content, didn't make it clear that the thread was intended to be about Gallows Humour in general, it appeared to be an attack on one, still living, individual - and there were many others who, like me, 'didn't get it'. Mea Culpa, wuppy-do!

Taking the piss out of another individual human being, irrespective of their public persona, who is at this very moment enduring her long and painful death? Completely unacceptable to any decent, civilised, compassionate person. It's not a question of "She's a gobby ignorant twat who made millions from suckers, so she deserves it" - anyone who believes that kind of false rationalisation truly is ignorant. And to direct that kind of hate on to someone who is dying must be one of the basest of human instincts and behaviours.

And, for the record Joe, to be labelled, amongst other things, a 'prude' and be harangued by a Moderator for having the temerity to say what I've just said - a Moderator, incidentally, who goes on to rub the noses of the moderate in the shit by re-opening the thread under a different title and inviting the 'Goody-Haters' to carry on with their abuse - really does beggar belief. IMH-Fuckin'-O.

So Joe - in order to clarify, and for the sake of the uncivilised ones on here who think taking the piss out of an individual who is dying is OK, you have made a clear satement, publically and in our personal messages, that Bad Taste is absolutely and permanently 'On The Mudcat Menu', and posters of material which is in Bad Taste will have your full and unequivocal support. I assume, therefore, that it's absolutely fine for me to post jokes in Bad Taste about Pakis, Towel Heads, Niggers, Dykes, Fudge-Ferrets, Spazzes, Hunch-backs, abducted and possibly murdered 3-year-old children, Dopey Yank soldiers blowing their own side away in Eye-Rack, 9/11 victims, school-shootings in the USA, and anybody else whose race, religion, abnormality or misfortune I personally find amusing at any given moment, and that you will give me your full and unequivocal support when the usual shower of Prudish, Politically-Correct, Tree-Hugging, God-Denying, Namby-Pamby, Moral-High-Ground-taking, Holier-Than-Thou Nincompoops start squealing at me like stuck pigs?

Don't worry folks, it will never happen, just a simple lad from the Backwoods making a point about something that the Mudcat Intelligentsia seem not to be able to take in - that abuse takes many forms, but it's still abuse. But I have standards, and I have self-respect, and I don't debase myself that way. And I won't debase myself by getting kicks from abusing the dying, no matter who they are.

Have your fun, kick the lass to death, shoot off in your pants as she draws her last breath, but don't expect me, or others who see this issue the way I do, to watch and giggle as you do it. Whatever will you lot get up to next? Happy-Slapping filmed on your mobile phones? Snuff-Movies?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:17 AM

Guest ED you stated >>>>>>>>>Jade Goody has stated that she is "ready to go to heaven".

Looks like cancer isn't going to be the last bad news she hears.<<<<<<<<<<<<

You see fit to even ridicule her beliefs as they do not correspond with your own.... well I am off to Heaven when I die too... perhaps you should make it clear that what you are saying is 'in your opinion' and not behave as though you know all the answers.... In my honest opinion I think you are way off beam but you are entitled to be!

Thank you Backwoodsman... I could not have put that better myself... however those who choose to perpetuate the farce are above any comments we make... it is so easy to manipulate the 'self opinionated' into joining the merry throng of 'not so well' wishers.
It heartily saddens me that someone dying, whoever they are, can be treated in this manner.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:18 AM

Furthermore Joe, why is this in the Music section and not BS where it should be? Is it of that much importance to you that it has this kind of prominence?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:20 AM

Before you answer... But it is Folklore..... it is out and out BS!!!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:33 AM

Backwoodsman - it is not the death that Goody has earned, but the publicity.

It is my thesis that gallows humour (as good a name for it as any other, I suppose) works only if the subject is generally well thought of - which I say that Goody is not.

So most Jade Goody jokes are not funny.

Your examples of types of unacceptable jokes is flawed in that it concentrates on those that give comfort to bigotry. Jade Goody jokes in general seem to be based not on bigotry (save perhaps for the bigotry of society against the ugly, which is well documented over substantial periods) but on condemnation of her choices.

An interesting contradiction that she poses is that based on normal social criteria one would assume her to be stupid (another class of people against whom society is bigoted) whereas since her first Big Brother series she has proven able to continue to capitalise, to her profit, on her notoriety, better than others who might be thought to be of more intelligence - for example Jodie Marsh - who has (AFAIK) done well in money terms but not as well. The same would be true of Katie Price (Jordan) - who appears consciously to play to the lowest common denominator.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: The Villan
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:52 AM

Well said BWM

The original thread was about taking the piss out of Jane Goody.who in reality is on her death bed.

So quite a few people are quite rightly upset about that adn complain.

Quite rightly, a moderator removes the thread.

Only for Joe (the insensitive, I am going to be in charge of this and will make bloody sure it cariies on) Offer, steps in and resurects the thread, but then goes on and makes comments about the people who complained. That was not necessary Joe, and only started the issue further. That IMHO is very piss poor moderating. Joe you are condoning the use of gutter jokes and as a moderator that doesn't sit well with me.

Tell jokes by all means, I don't mind, but stop being such insensitive bastards and leave Jane Goody alone to die in peace.

Then this thread might settle down.

>>I would love to rise to the gauntlet tossed by Villan - but I will wait until the clones enact the special filter. I am on good behavior.

<<

Gargoyle, up yours as well.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:21 AM

The original thread was about taking the piss out of Jane Goody.who in reality is on her death bed. So quite a few people are quite rightly upset about that adn complain.

The Villan (and others) - please note that the original thread was NOT about taking the piss out of anyone, rather, as stated in the OP : A very public celebrity death, which raises all sorts of issues & provokes all sorts of responses, but the most immediate folkloric angle is the humour.

People got upset quite wrongly, because they missed the point entirely, going off on a collective hissyfit as their hysterical complaints make abundantly clear. Please read my other posts in this respect.

And talking of respect, at least get her name right.

*

And Brian O'Linn found a lump in his balls,
So he picks up the phone and the doctor he calls;
That was three months ago, now he's bald and he's thin -
Sure I fit me old clothes, said Brian O'Linn!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:12 AM

Georgiansilver: well I am off to Heaven when I die too

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 'God' decide if you're 'good enough' to get into heaven? I didn't think that you can decide that hell sounds rubbish and choose heaven instead!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:19 AM

With respect Guest Ed. I don't intend to get into discussion about my Faith or Gods will but I am off to Heaven when I die... I live on Gods promises.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:33 AM

I'm not scared of dying,
And I don't really care.
If it's peace you find in dying,
Well then let the time be near.
If it's peace you find in dying,
And if dying time is here,
Just bundle up my coffin
'Cause it's cold way down there.
I hear that its cold way down their.
Yeah, crazy cold way down their.

And when I die, and when I'm gone,
There'll be one child born
In this world to carry on,
to carry on.

Now troubles are many, they're as deep as a well.
I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.
Swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell,
But I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell.
Yes only my dying will tell.
Yeah, only my dying will tell.

Give me my freedom for as long as I be.
All I ask of living is to have no chains on me.
All I ask of living is to have no chains on me,
And all I ask of dying is to go naturally.
Oh I want to go naturally.

and when I die,
When I'm dead, dead and gone,
There'll be one child born in our world to carry on,
To carry on.


Laura Nyro (1947 - 1997)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:38 AM

I live on Gods promises

Fair enough, Mike. Allow me to consider it a fairly flakey belief system though.

All thye best to you too.

Ed


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:34 PM

The original title did indicate an attack on Jade goody specifically. Let's not rewrite history ala the shrub.

Backwoods - well put!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:33 PM

Oh, I suppose we could limit our folklore discussions to things that happened over a hundred years ago, and people would feel a lot safer. The Jade Goody phenomenon is folklore happening right now. These crude jokes (mostly) aren't coming from television gag writers - they're coming from real people. And yeah, I suppose I have to admit that one purpose of such jokes is just plain cruelty - just like racist jokes and sexist jokes and many ethnic jokes. But it seems to me that this particular type of joke is meant more to shock than to be cruel - and you can see from many of the messages above that even the thought of such jokes shocks many of us and brings our taboos to the forefront.

So, what's the point?

I think it's questioning the values of our society. We can pour out sympathy to a celebrity or an unknown and distant stranger; but we often can't look a homeless person in the eye, and most of us would certainly hesitate to touch a homeless person or shake his or her hand. How about the grouchy old guy next door, who's mean because he's suffering from Parkinson's? We humans like to be sympathetic - but we tend to prefer safe, long-distance sympathy, shared over the Internet instead of requiring us to touch and listen and give and tolerate. Maybe that's what these Jade Goody jokes are poking a stick at. For some of us, that stick of shock makes us nervous - I know it makes me nervous.

Maybe that's what my kid's shocking punk lyrics are about - provoking a display of the dishonesty of many of the so-called "values" of our society.

C'mon, all you people! How many of you really, honestly care about Jade Goody - and if you do, why? Now, tell me how you responded to the last homeless person who asked you for a handout. Did you show that person at least as much respect as you think Jade Goody deserves? Even if you didn't give anything, did you look that person in the eye and say something pleasant? I'm sure some of you did respond in a positive way to that homeless person - but I have to say that I'm not proud of the brush-off I gave to the last homeless person who asked me for money. I even had trouble talking to people in a convalescent home after I sang for them yesterday - somebody had to remind me that I should do that.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 09:00 PM

There was a tradition of nasty rhymes in the 19th century, e.g.:

Little Willy from the mirror
Licked the mercury right off,
Thinking, in his childish error,
It would cure the whooping cough.
At the funeral, his mother
Smartly said to Mrs Brown,
"'Twas a chilly day for Willy
When the mercury went down."

Willy, in one of his bright new sashes,
Fell in the fire and was burned to ashes.
Soon the room grew rather chilly,
But no one cared to poke poor Willy.

Mother heard her children scream,
So she threw them in the stream,
Saying, as she drowned the third,
"Children should be seen, not heard."

There were also, in the early 20th century, the Little Audrey jokes, some of which made fun of death:

Little Audrey played with matches and set fire to the house. As it burned, her mother said "You just wait till your father comes home; then you'll catch it." Little Audrey just laughed and laughed, because she knew that her father had come home early and was taking a nap upstairs.

For some literal gallows humor, see "The Night before Larry Was Stretched" in the DigiTrad.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 12:20 AM

Joe, you are making a lot of assumptions about the rest of us there. Also, I didn't hear anyone say anything about "respect" when it came to Jade Goody, just showing some compassion toward a fellow human bean who is literally dying as we speak. What is so wrong about that?

I happen to be very comfortable with people who are dying, in hospice, at home, and/or folks in convalescence homes. I've had some tell me they want me there, with my dulcimer, when they die..they want me to "play them over" and I am honoured. I also am someone to whom they can speak of all manner of things, the hard things which they may be reluctant to burden their families with. There is a place for humour with them, when appropriate, but I would not make jokes of people I don't know who are dying.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 01:49 AM

Yes, I am making the assumption that most people are like me, and they find it easier to express sympathy and compassion long-distance rather than up-close. Sometimes, I'm really good when I deal directly with people in need - but I fail an awful lot.

Today, Google shows 556,000 pages on "Jade Goody jokes." Why? What's the reason behind the phenomenon? I will completely agree that the jokes are nasty and mean and disgusting and shocking and disrespectful, but this is a folklore discussion, not a discussion of morals - tell me why it's happening, and what is it attempting to express or accomplish?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM

I am certain the Cultural/Social Studies Departments of most UK Universities and Higher Education Colleges
will definitely be examining this 'phenomenon' with very serious objective
dispassionate interest.
That's why I am surprised and dismayed
at the irrational
and quite hostile response displayed here.


..guess its always easier to jump to pre-configured conclusions and condemn than try to understand...???


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humor-laughing at death/disease
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 02:21 AM

Villan--

Follow this for some humor and a blog about living with a severely autistic child. The cartoonist's son is a middle teen and on the far side of the scale. Her comic family has an autistic son as well, and the humor can be biting or gentle, but is also funny in the "If I don't laugh I will probably go crazy" vein.

And isn't this what all of it is? My husband also died of cancer a bit more than a year ago. We had plenty of humor around the house, and in the last year and a half, a fair amount of gallows humor. If we don't laugh, we cry, and crying all the time is also a sure way to the loony bin.

As Joe commented somewhere up there, we laugh WITH, not AT...

and without the love there is no need for the laughter, because we simply don't care.

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 03:57 AM

If you are living in the situation you are laughing with if you are outside the situation no matter what fancy terms you use to try and justify yourself you are laughin at.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:03 AM

Joe: "How many of you really, honestly care about Jade Goody"

I think what is so surprising about her, is the degree of marmite factor she seems to generate. And it's that *personality* along with some major initial telly exposure, and of course Max Cliffords know how, that have made her so famous.

Honestly, I don't 'care' overmuch about Jade Goody. Certainly no more than I would anyone in a troubling situation. And it amazes me that she provokes such strong emotional reactions in people, either of love or of loathing!

I don't care, in as much as I neither think she's brilliant, nor dreadful. She's just another girl, albeit with a strong personality, a lot of publicity, and of course cancer. I wonder what it is about certain individuals (whatever their 'talents' or indeed absence of same) is capable of catalysing our collective obsession, and mass projection of such powerful emotions?

Yes I always give a few quid to a homeless person. I bought one guy who was sitting outside a shop, a bottle of cider a while back - 'cos I only had plastic on me. I also find the idea that homeless people should make one feel uncomfortable, strange. I wonder why those who live 'outside' of societies norms, rattle peoples cages to such an extent that they would prefer to 'not see' them at all? Another most strange phenomena.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:14 AM

Joe and his cronies - why don't you - no, make that won't you - get it? It's not about Jade Goody. It's not about humour in and around the subject of death, which I certainly don't object to - I regard it as natural, even desirable that we should face the subject of death with frankness and an ability to see a funny side.

What I, and others, are objecting to is the underlying nastiness and unacceptability of asking for jokes about an individual who is going through the process of dying right now, as we bat this crock of shit around. Instead of Jade Goody, why don't Joe and SS tell us of someone in their family or close circle of friends (assuming they've got any friends) who is dying a painful, lingering death? Give us all the gory details, then we can all take the piss out of them and their suffering, and express our delight at the dreadfulness of their plight

You and SS can wriggle and distort in a vain attempt to justify yourselves until you're blue in the face, but this thread started out as a request for jokes about someone who is dying but still alive, and it prompted vile and disgusting comments about her as a person from people who, AFAIK, have never met her and know only of the persona that the media promote.

You presume that the stance taken by me and others is because we're scared of dying and too chicken to face it or talk about it. Not true, certainly in my own case - I don't want to die (who does?) but I'm not afraid of dying, it's a natural process that we all must face. And I don't give a fuck about Jade Goody The Movie, or Saint Jade, or whatever other stupid names people make themselves feel better by calling her - what she is, what she's done, all are insignificant. What I care about is having the good spirit and compassion to show respect for a human being who is dying - in this case someone who happens to be called Jade Goody and who I'll never know. What the fuck's wrong with that?

Oh, and there's no need to apologise for your appalling behaviour Joe. You won't anyway, it takes grace and courage.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:14 AM

lifes hard enough..

i'll never understand how so many apparently intelligent people
can constantly find so much spare energy
to waste on being forever on the lookout for new adveraries
to be offended by and to retaliate first to attack..??????????


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: The Villan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM

I tell you one thing she has helped, and that is the awareness of Cervical Cancer. Like her or not, that can only be good.

You never know, it could be your wife, your daughter next (I hope not)

Joe Offer
You are avoiding the main issue here, and thats your support for taking the piss out of JG who is dying and then trying to call us "do gooders" from wanting to complain about your bad taste. Also going against one of the mods and resurrecting the issue/thread.

You have lost the trust and respect from quite a few mudcatters, including myself.

The issue is not about Gallow Humour, and you seem to think it is.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolckrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM

and if anybody out ther cares..

in the last couple of years..

apart from my own health problems that lost me too much time
away from the wonderful world of work and day to day petty combat..

one close family member taken by cancer
one close family member taken by shotgun suicide
one close family member car crash broken back
one close family member hospitalized & institutionalized..

i can't be bothered continuing this list..

if anyone has bitter reason to be self rightious and castigating..

then f@ck it you nasty b@stards.. not me !!!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:51 AM

jade love.. screw as much ££$ as you can out of the right wing corporate media for your kids future..

sorry, you know we might take the piss out of the way those self interested c@*$s report your demise..

but i'm sure you'd do the same if it was someone else marginaly famous
who irritates the smarmy middle classes..
because so many of us were probably grown up on the same kind of council estates..



..and before I'm about to start verging on the wrong side of civility..

[Kat.. we might not agree entirely.. but I respect you..
so please dont think what i'm about to say includes you..]

3 people posting here are complete beligerent wrongheaded self rightious ***********s..


g'night and nice and relaxed eternity away from all this b@llox jade..


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:57 AM

PFR, I can't be bothered to read your posts, too many daft line breaks in stupid places. A poet you certainly are not.

And what a perverted view you must have of the world, when you castigate those of us who ask others respect for the dying as "you nasty b@stards".

Talk about people in greenhouses.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:02 AM

PFR, you may see me as a "beligerent wrongheaded self rightious ***********s..", but guess what - I don't care. It says far more about you (and those who take your view) than it does about me.

Now Foxtrot Oscar.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:09 AM

Backwoodsman

you condemn yourself with your own supercilious words..

.."give 'em enough rope"...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: The Villan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:18 AM

What a nasty person you are Folkpunkrocker


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:31 AM

oh no I'm not..

oh yes you are..

oh noooo I'm not..

whats that clever definition for instances like this
when poncy better educated people than me
try to discredit 'myself' and what I have to say..


errm... "Ad Hominem fallacy"..

thats the bugger..


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:32 AM

2 out of 3..

1 more to 'out' himself..


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: The Villan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:33 AM

:-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:56 AM

There's no hope...........
Goodbye Cruel Mudcat World. :-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:00 AM

Can we please stick to the subject without the righteous trying to illuminate the shadows by sticking their sun-shining arseholes in? I could do without the sort of posts we've seen from The Villan and Backwoodsman (etc), who, having both missed the point by several aforementioned light years, now proceed to labour that missed point at every available opportunity. By all means open up another thread about how much better than the rest of us you are, but for the sake of common decency keep your sanctimonious trolling to yourselves.

As for Jade Goody I have every respect for the girl. To repeat my early post on the matter: Jade's the ultimate girl-next-door, certainly for estate-born louts like myself who've known dozens like her - bawdy, boozy, flawed, yet possessed of a brilliant life-force rarely found elsewhere. How sad it is that that life-force will soon be no longer with us; it'll be a darker world without her for sure.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: The Villan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:14 AM

Well SS if you hadn't started the original thread, then none of this would have happened.
I accepted you apology and I openly said that.

What i don't accept is the moderation on this thread by Joe and his comments and overruling another mod.

I have already stated that I have no problem with the title of this thread, and I don't. Had Joe have just allowed you to start this new thread without any mention of the said lady and kept his own opinions to himself, you would have had a lovely thread.

Anyway. its a sunny day, and life is too short.

I need a breath of fresh air.

Enjoy your day.

Peace to one and all :-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:35 AM

hi SS.

last few years a tragic negligent accedent happened in my family that was reported in the tabloid areswipes..

I'm being very objective now..

if a member of my family serves time for poor judgement
and bad driving
then serves him right.

a lot of what middle England blogged about that story..
I actually agreed with..

so i think I've earned the right to say that mouthy coarse girls like Jade
who have vevr done no real harm to anyone ever
are our kind of ok good people..


..and those smug shallow self rightious nimbys who recently suddenly discovererd her existance & illness in the sunday broadshhet lifestyle paper magerzines
just really probably dont understand genuine robust
transgresive working class humour !!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: The Villan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:39 AM

Happy 50th Punkfolkrocker :-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:49 AM

"I'd like to see this thread closed, but if you really are interested in the sort of black 'gallows' humour your second post indicates, then maybe a more sensitive thread title with a less inflammatory and reasoned original post might be a start."


Sometimes I don't know why I bother....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/disease
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:00 AM

Well SS if you hadn't started the original thread, then none of this would have happened.
I accepted you apology and I openly said that.


People will misunderstand - deliberately, I fear, in this case. Hence the sanctimonious trolling. As for my apology, as I was in the process of posting when the thread was closed: My only error in starting this thread was to suppose people would have the nous to approach the subject with dispassionate objectivity deserving of a genuine folkloric phenomenon. In this alone I was sorely mistaken, for which I have been accused of trolling, called an evil bastard, and condemned to hell. And there I was thinking I was in the company of rational human beings.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Gallows Humour-laughing at death/dis
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 09:23 AM

Please folks... read back the original..perhaps... first twenty posts on the thread and see what people in general were suggesting/saying. Most asked for the thread to be removed as it was offensive to someone in the process of losing her life.... That should have been enough but no... it has grown into something which presents as a battle between the caring of the world and those who don't give a hoot!!!! What sort of people are you???
Can I suggest that those who care enough about the dignity of the dying... abstain from the thread and let the nasties gloat over hard earned their victory.
PLEASE...... If you care enough!!! LET THIS THREAD GO!!!
Best wishes to those who show true heart.


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