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BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN

Sawzaw 10 Oct 09 - 11:22 AM
Sawzaw 10 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM
CarolC 10 Oct 09 - 12:21 PM
Sawzaw 10 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM
Riginslinger 10 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM
Sawzaw 10 Oct 09 - 10:38 PM
Sawzaw 10 Oct 09 - 11:09 PM
CarolC 10 Oct 09 - 11:54 PM
Peace 11 Oct 09 - 01:01 AM
Sawzaw 11 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM
CarolC 11 Oct 09 - 12:21 PM
Riginslinger 12 Oct 09 - 11:07 AM
Sawzaw 12 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM
CarolC 12 Oct 09 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,TIA 12 Oct 09 - 10:57 PM
Sawzaw 13 Oct 09 - 10:08 AM
CarolC 13 Oct 09 - 12:49 PM
Sawzaw 14 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM
CarolC 14 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM
Sawzaw 15 Oct 09 - 12:02 AM
Sawzaw 15 Oct 09 - 12:09 AM
CarolC 15 Oct 09 - 12:32 AM
Sawzaw 15 Oct 09 - 08:34 PM
CarolC 15 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM
Sawzaw 15 Oct 09 - 08:50 PM
Sawzaw 15 Oct 09 - 09:39 PM
Sawzaw 15 Oct 09 - 09:58 PM
GUEST,TIA 15 Oct 09 - 11:17 PM
CarolC 15 Oct 09 - 11:19 PM
CarolC 15 Oct 09 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,TIA 15 Oct 09 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,TIA 15 Oct 09 - 11:46 PM
Sawzaw 18 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM
CarolC 18 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM
CarolC 18 Oct 09 - 01:38 PM
Sawzaw 19 Oct 09 - 12:59 AM
CarolC 19 Oct 09 - 01:18 AM
Riginslinger 19 Oct 09 - 08:41 AM
CarolC 19 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Oct 09 - 11:28 PM
Sawzaw 20 Oct 09 - 09:27 AM
CarolC 20 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM
CarolC 20 Oct 09 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,TIA 20 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM
Riginslinger 20 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM
CarolC 20 Oct 09 - 11:39 PM
Sawzaw 21 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM
CarolC 21 Oct 09 - 12:47 AM
GUEST,TIA 21 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM
Riginslinger 21 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:22 AM

SIEU rolls ACORN under da bus:

Anna Burger on Youtube: "SEIU has also cut all ties to ACORN."


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM

"Anything come of that one? Any convictions?"

I never claimed anything about convictions. My only clam is that I beleive the things I post to be facts. If someone can prove they are not facts I will retract them.

You are welcome post anything you want and I will not attack you personally or accuse you of gossip and smear mongering.

It seems that some try to control what is posted in these forums as if free speech is subject to their own personal beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 12:21 PM

I'm not accusing the above poster of gossip and smear mongering. I am accusing the people who are generating the gossip and smear mongering that the above poster has taken as facts.

I don't have to prove ACORN's innocence. In the United States of America, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, it is the burden of those who are making the accusations to prove them. If they do not, we can safely say that the accusations have no basis in fact and are nothing more than gossip and smear mongering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

SRS: "the many other offices that didn't bite weren't reported"

How many?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM

It's time for somebody to roll SEIU under the bus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 10:38 PM

"taken as facts."

You are hereby invited to disprove any of these things that I believe to be facts.

You claim ACORN fights for living wages. This is disproved by the fact that ACORN sued California for exemption from the minimum wages. They want living wages for everybody but the people they hire.

One standard for them and a different standard for others.

And yes, one example is enough to prove hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:09 PM

Reuters:

The Evidence Against ACORN Mounts: Newly Obtained Whistleblower Affidavits Further Document Abuse of Taxpayer Funds

WASHINGTON, July 31 /PRNewswire/ -- The Consumers Rights League (CRL)
today released newly obtained affidavits from former ACORN and Acorn Housing Corporation (AHC) employees that attest to ACORN and AHC's illegal practice of using taxpayer dollars to fund political activity.
    The affidavits from two former AHC employees, obtained by CRL following the publication of its original report in June, "ACORN's Hypocritical House of Cards," make further specific and damning allegations, including:
    -- AHC and ACORN were at one time being funded from a joint account, which would appear to violate the same laws highlighted by the AmeriCorps Inspector General in 1994.
    -- According to a former ACORN board member and AHC employee, AHC -- which received taxpayer money -- directly used funds to support ACORN activities, including paying for rent at an office where AHC was not even a tenant. -- Perhaps most troubling, the sworn statement of former AHC staffer Andrew Johnson suggests AHC leadership pressured employees to intentionally hide information from HUD investigators.
    Statement from James Terry, Chief Public Advocate, Consumers Rights League:
    "These AHC affidavits are further evidence in a growing litany of
potentially illegal abuses of taxpayer dollars by ACORN and AHC. Members of Congress, who recently doled out millions of dollars to these groups in the housing bailout bill, need to ask some serious questions to ensure that those taxpayer dollars are being spent properly and not illegally supporting political activity, or being squandered by an organization with an already checkered past of voter fraud and embezzlement. In addition to the affidavits, these former employees have offered to assist any investigation with additional information. It is time for Congress, HUD and others to exercise proper oversight and investigate these entities before millions more in public funds are wasted."
    Background:
    In June, the Consumers Rights League released a report exposing the role of ACORN in the nation's housing crisis. The report, "ACORN's Hypocritical House of Cards," included whistleblower documents provided by former ACORN and ACORN Housing Corporation (AHC) employees. The report outlined AHC's repeated pattern of shaking down corporate targets, driving low-income consumers to questionable loan products, and potentially misusing taxpayer funds by
maintaining what appears to be an illegally close relationship with ACORN,which engages in overtly political activity.
    AHC is a federally recognized tax-exempt organization. As such it is not allowed to share funds or provide funding for ACORN. Over a three-year period surveyed for the AHC report that organization took in 40% -- or more than $7 million -- in taxpayer funds. Over the same period, AHC gave grants and paid fees totaling more than $4.6 million to ACORN-related organizations (including Citizens Consulting, from which the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke embezzled nearly $1 million).
    The June Consumers Rights League report highlighted the 1994 scandal in which AHC was caught by government investigators for falsely claiming to be a separate entity from ACORN so that it could use taxpayer money for combined operations. The AmeriCorps Inspector General's report concluded:
    "Not only did we find references to ACORN having 'created' AHC to serve purposes common to both organizations, we noted numerous transactions and activities involving 'fraternal' ACORN-related corporations."
    In that case, it was found that ACORN had abused the $1 million grant from taxpayers. The practice seems to have continued as AHC has taken in millions more from public coffers. An alarming internal AHC memo from September 2004 specifically stated: "Total funding from HUD's fair housing initiatives this year is about $650,000 which will provide a good opportunity for ACORN and AHC to work together on housing issues and campaigns."
    About The Consumers Rights League:
    The Consumers Rights League is a non-profit, non-partisan educational organization dedicated to protecting consumer choice and access to the marketplace. Through investigative analysis, CRL produces quality research that thoroughly documents the real-world choices and challenges consumers face and reports on the benefits enjoyed by an overwhelming majority of consumers.
Learn more about CRL's mission at www.consumersrightsleague.org.
    Affidavits and full ACORN report available at the following links:
www.consumersrightsleague.org//UploadedFiles/Affidavit%20Andrew%20Johnson.pdf
www.consumersrightsleague.org//UploadedFiles/Glenda%20Kizee%20Affidavit.pdf
SOURCE The Consumers Rights League


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:54 PM

Well, let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:01 AM

Regarding the thread title: Spread the Truth About ACORN: Well, soon as we know what it is we should do just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM

"Sproul, who has donated nearly $30,000 to McCain's campaign, has been in the good graces of GOP officials for the past decade despite charges of ethical and potentially legal wrongdoing."

Well, let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 12:21 PM

I don't need to keep anyone posted on whether or not Sproul gets convicted. I'm not waging a vendetta to get punitive action taken against him as the above poster is doing with ACORN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:07 AM

I think Peace has it right. It would be a good idea to spread the truth about ACORN when we figure out what the truth is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM

CC's standard for CC: "I don't need to keep anyone posted"


CC's standard for others:"Well, let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't."


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:26 PM

It's not a different standard. It's a different context. This thread is being used by someone who has been trying for years to get ACORN shut down, and that person has made hundreds of posts containing lies, gossip, and smears against ACORN. I have posted a few examples of other people doing things that this poster has been accusing ACORN of doing in order to draw attention to this person's hypocrisy, and the fact that they really couldn't give a shit about the principles behind their accusations, because if they did, they would be equally outraged by these things when they are done by those they personally support. If they really did give a shit, they would be working just as hard to get the other people shut down or penalized as well. They are not, and they don't care about the underlying principles. All they care about is disenfranchising poor people.

And even if this person wanted to wait until it was proved that the people on the side they support have done the things they are accused of before anyone calls for punitive action, they are still being hypocritical for not insisting that the same standards be applied to ACORN.

It's all about the double standards of the person waging the vendetta against ACORN in this thread, and about their blatant agenda to disenfranchise people who vote in ways that person doesn't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:57 PM

Bingo.
Well said.
Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:08 AM

CC: "Sproul, who has donated nearly $30,000 to McCain's campaign, has been in the good graces of GOP officials for the past decade despite charges of ethical and potentially legal wrongdoing."

CC:In the United States of America, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, it is the burden of those who are making the accusations to prove them. If they do not, we can safely say that the accusations have no basis in fact and are nothing more than gossip and smear mongering."

Any convictions or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:49 PM

Flogging a dead horse, my friend. I've already taken the air out of that one. Try reading my posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM

"lies, gossip, and smears against ACORN"

Can you point out a specific example?


Bertha rolls Wade Rathke's "longtime companion" and mother of his two children under da bus:

Times Pickayune.

Beth Butler, the longtime executive director of Lousiana ACORN, was terminated by the organization's national leadership Monday amid a power struggle at the embattled advocacy group.

Butler’s sacking came two days after local ACORN leaders criticized President Barack Obama’s planned itinerary for a trip to New Orleans this week " comments that drew an immediate rebuke from ACORN’s national leaders.

On Sunday, ACORN Chief Executive Bertha Lewis said the remarks, which were not uttered by Butler, were "without authority and do not reflect the position of the national leadership." Lewis said she would "be personally going to New Orleans to deal with the individual involved."

Less than 24 hours later, Butler was fired. An angry Butler said Monday that the real reason for her firing was not the flap over Obama’s visit, but a simmering tussle over assets that ACORN’s Louisiana affiliate controls and that the national group covets.

In particular, Butler said headquarters has its eye on a land trust set up by the Louisiana branch. The trust owns five relatively modest houses, she said, and has a bank account of perhaps $60,000 intended for rehabilitation work " nothing to sneeze at, she said, "in the nonprofit world."

As it happens, ACORN officials agree with Butler that her termination was not carried out only as retribution for the Obama critique. Rather, according to an ACORN official who would speak only on background, the episode was "reflective of a lack of accountability to process" on Butler’s part.

Butler had repeatedly breached ACORN protocol, and this was the most recent instance, he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM

Yes, I can. Until we have seen all of the video footage that was taken at the ACORN offices (unedited), saying that ACORN employees were giving advice on running whorehouses with underage girls and income tax evasion (as the above poster has done), is gossip and could very possibly be a lie. And spreading that kind of gossip is smear mongering, until it has been proven that the video was not edited to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:02 AM

SIEU rolls ACORN under da bus:

On Wednesday, September 30, the union's secretary-treasurer, Anna Burger, told a congressional panel that her organization no longer has a working relationship with the New Orleans-based nationwide nonprofit "anti-poverty" network ACORN. "SEIU has also cut all ties to ACORN"

We have suspended all contracts and active work with ACORN," said union spokeswoman Michelle Ringuette,


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:09 AM

CC: let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't.

Saying they were altered is gossip and could very possibly be a lie. And spreading that kind of gossip is smear mongering, until it has been proven that the video was edited to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:32 AM

Nope. Sorry, that one can't be flipped. They are the ones making the accusations, and if their accusations can't be proven (and since they are making them, it is up to them to prove them), then they are nothing but gossip. Let them prove their accusations against ACORN. Until they do, they are nothing but hearsay and gossip.

Those videos as they are now would not stand up in a court of law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:34 PM

"until it has been proven that the video was not edited to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen."

How does one prove a negative?

You are accusing someone who has possibly exposed ACORN corruption of editing videos to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen. It is up to you to prove your accusation, not for them to disprove it. Or does innocent until proven guilty only work one way in your world?

You keep repeating it over an over in a shrill, bigoted* attempt to smear someone with hearsay and gossip.

You don't even bother to say "allegedly" edited which indicates that the videos were unquestionably edited.

*Bigoted - utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM

The first thing that needs to happen is for the people who made the video to show all of the footage they took, unedited. Until they do that, the video that they have provided so far has no credibility, and would not stand up in a court of law.

I'm not the one who is being bigoted here. I am willing to revise my assessment of ACORN if I am shown proof of what is being alleged against them (such proof has so far not been provided). The one who is being bigoted in this case is the one who is unwilling to wait until there is actual proof of the wrongdoing that has been alleged and who is spreading gossip and smears in order to disenfranchise people they don't want to have a vote in our elections.

The bigot in this discussion is the one who is so utterly intolerant of any views other than their own, that they think they get to change the rule that in the US, people are innocent until proven guilty, and instead are trying to (shrilly) to shove their view down the throats of everyone else that no guilt needs to be proven, it only needs to be asserted.

(I note the use of the word "shrill" in this case... a word that is only used by men when they are addressing or talking about women. I note this, because when men resort to this kind of sexist language in a debate with women, it always means they know they are losing the debate, and it's all they've got left to work with)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:50 PM

Firefighters roll ACORN under da bus:

St. Tammany News:

Fire officials in St. Tammany Parish are hot under the collar after learning earlier this month that nearly $1 million in federal fire prevention grant money was earmarked for the ACORN Institute in New Orleans.

Fire District 1 in Slidell and Fire District 3 in Lacombe had applied for grants through the Assistance to Firefighters program of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Both were turned down.

“We had asked for a little over $100,000, and we were denied,” said Fire District 3 Chief Chuck Flynn. “Then I found out that ACORN was approved for $1 million, and that just made no sense, so I sent a letter to David Vitter.”

Flynn was hoping to install smoke detectors in low-income homes throughout the Lacombe area and that by doing so his department would prevent a repeat of a January incident that killed four children. In Slidell, FD1 had asked for about $20,000 for its Hazard House, a portable teaching aid that shows all of the possible fire hazards that can be found in a home.

The grant to ACORN in the amount of $997,402 was awarded on Sept. 4, just shortly before a controversial video surfaced in which ACORN employees were seen advising two filmmakers posing as a prostitute and a pimp on how to skirt tax laws. A few weeks later, Congress voted to cut off all funding to the group, thus freezing the grant.

The grant was one of the largest issued by FEMA under the program, and one of only three awarded in Louisiana, the others going to the State Fire Marshal’s Office in Baton Rouge and the Monroe Fire Department.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:39 PM

CC is defending something that even Barack Obama and the head of ACORN says is indefensible.

Lewis said the steps were being taken in response to "the indefensible action of a handful of our employees."

Meanwhile Acorn was awarded a federal grant for $997,402 [now frozen] and local fire fighers got nothing. How many Acorn workers get killed in the line of duty? How many people do they rescue from burning buildings?

CC is "unwilling to wait until there is actual proof of the wrongdoing" before she spreads rumor and gossip because of her bigoted intolerance.

You are welcome to your views. Please state them here and your proof of wrongdoing like you require from others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:58 PM

interview of ST Louis Acorn Workers


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:17 PM

Sawzaw:
You are being a bigoted, misogynistic asshole. Show the whole, unedited video, and then people of good faith and intelligence can make an informed judgement. Until then, you are being a shrill ideologue. Is the whole truth too much to ask? Is the whole truth something to be feared?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:19 PM

I'm not defending anything. I'm saying I need to see more evidence of it before I'm willing to take anyone's word for whether or not it happened the way the people who made the tapes want us to think it happened. Even Bertha Lewis says that what the tapes show isn't what actually happened. The behavior she is saying was inexcusable on the part of the employees who were fired is not the behavior that we are told they engaged in and that has everyone so up in arms.

The above poster, on the other hand, has absolutely no problem with bad behavior when it comes from people who are on their side of the argument, so that's yet more hypocrisy on their part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:20 PM

Not the above poster, but the one before that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:26 PM

I know. No prob.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:46 PM

Yessirree, video/audio certainly don't lie.
Let's spread the truth about Rush Limbaugh.
(It's all here on the record......well maybe edited a little, but we don't need the unedited version do we??????).
Spread The Truth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM

No Idea of how to prove a negative?

If the Acorn employees did nothing wrong, why did Bertha fire them?
Wouldn't it be bad behavior to fire somebody that is courageously helping poor people and did nothing wrong?

How do you know what "the people who made the tapes" wants you to think?

Who is included in people "on their side of the argument"? Am I somehow responsible for what Rush Limbaugh says and am I somehow obligated to condemn or defend it?

Who is included in us? Are you speaking for some sort of group that I am supposed to show a tape to that I don't have?

Is this some sort of hypothetical battle between two opposing sides? A straw man argument?

I am only one person and I am not uncivilly, shrilly calling anybody an asshole because they disagree with me. I invite all points of view. I merely ask that you follow the requirements you place on others.

Remember the dark ages when people thought everything they saw was not real, just the work of demons? You know what you saw but you prefer to demonize some sort of straw man group of people rather that face reality.

If there is any evidence that those tapes were altered somehow, I would like to hear it instead of calling someone an asshole because they ask for proof like you do. The burden is on the accuser, not the accused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM

I would suggest actually reading my posts before responding to them. I did not say the ACORN employees did nothing wrong. It's right there in several of my posts. I said that the accusation that they knew they were addressing a pimp and a prostitute and that these people told them they were going to operate a child sex slave ring is disputed by the people in the videos and by ACORN.

I support investigations into what actually happened like this one by the government of California. If they are found to be guilty of the above charges, I think the workers in question should go to jail. However unlike the above poster who still lives in the dark ages, I don't think they or the organization they worked for should be punished before they are found to be guilty, and I don't think the organization should be punished if they were not aware that things like this were happening in some of their local offices. They should take responsibility for a lack of appropriate training, and they should correct that (and they are doing that), but there is no reason whatever to shut down the whole operation for something like that if they correct the problem so it won't happen again (if, in fact, all of it turns out to be true).

The edits in the tape are quite apparent. All one has to do is watch the tape to see them. And we never actually see the "pimp" and "prostitute" actually say any of the things we hear them saying. There is no way for us to know whether or not that is what they actually said. These things are quite obvious and because of them, the tape we saw would never hold up in a court of law. They would have to show the whole tapes and even then, we still might not know if we never see them saying the things we heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:38 PM

And if anyone thinks that just seeing something on tape or film is proof that it is real, that person is the one who is superstitious. I guess those dinosaurs in the Jurassic Park films prove that there really are dinosaurs roaming the earth today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 12:59 AM

So according to CC the undercover people are guilty until they can prove their innocence?

And of course Acorn is innocent until proven guilty.

"It is illegal under state law to tape someone without his or her permission." When they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Privacy does not exist in a busy public office with several people present.

Or in a bank with security cameras.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:18 AM

It's really a crime the way some people torture logic. I am not suggesting that the people who made the video should be punished in any way unlike the person who is causing logic to run screaming for its life just above with regard to ACORN. So guilt or innocence is beside the point when it comes to whether or not the videos would stand up to scrutiny in a court of law. The plain fact is that they could not stand up in a court of law, where the accused have a right to be considered innocent until their guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and what is said by the accusers must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's the American way. Anyone who doesn't like it maybe should go find a more dictatorial regime in which to do their propagandizing and smear mongering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 08:41 AM

The Louisiana District Attorney who has re-opened the embezzlement case might find grounds to prosecute for criminal behavior. What would be criminal about the stooges in the taping incident?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM

In my opinion, anyone who aids and abets human trafficking and sex slavery (or slavery of any kind) belongs in jail. I have zero tolerance for that kind of thing. I have no idea if the courts would agree with me in this case, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 11:28 PM

Wow, Sawzaw - you really do need a map don't you?
The point about Rush Limbaugh (see my link above - or did you even bother to?) is that you can make *anyone* say *anything* with clever editing!
Now go listen to the link, and think about that (and compare to the clearly edited ACORN tapes).
No double standard here - apply the same standard to both (if you are capable).


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:27 AM

CC:

Now that were are getting to specifics instead of generalities, you have raised some legitimate concerns.

The acorn people did not actually aid and abet. They just talked about it. I guess you could say giving advice was aid.

As to tortured logic, you claim that the undercover people unquestionably did something wrong, you do not wait to see it is true but you say to wait to see if ACORN did something wrong. It isn't torture for me. Your run screaming comment is more shrill rhetoric.

Tia says anyone can do anything but the possibility does not make evidence. That is about the flimsiest proof I can imagine.

It is also possible that the ACORN people did what was shown in the videos.

And I still can't understand why the ACORN people were fired if they did nothing wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM

No, what I'm saying, and what I have been saying all along, is that we can't take the evidence we've been given so far (the videos) as the truth, because they have been edited, and they wouldn't stand up in a court of law. We need to see the whole, unedited footage before we can say that the ACORN employees shown on the tape have done what we have been told they did by the people who made the videos. I am saying that their evidence is faulty and does not prove anything at this time. That's what I'm saying.

And I would consider offering advice, and more importantly, not reporting people who say they're planning on starting a child sex slave ring to the authorities, as aiding and abetting. Like I said, I don't know if the law would agree with that, but it's my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 10:18 AM

And, as I have said repeatedly, I didn't say they did nothing wrong. I am saying we don't have any proof that they were actually told that the people who we are told were posing as a pimp and a prostitute actually told them that, and we don't know that they told them they were going to start a child sex slave ring. As of right now, we have no proof of those things.

They were fired because we do know that they were giving advice about how to report income that they shouldn't have been giving. But that is not the same issue as whether or not they were under the impression that they were talking to a pimp and a prostitute who were planning on starting a child sex slave ring.

I've already answered that question several times here in this thread. I would suggest actually paying attention this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

"Tia says anyone can do anything but the possibility does not make evidence. That is about the flimsiest proof I can imagine."

No. The possibility renders your "evidence" worthless.

Or would you similarly argue that the Limbaugh song I linked to is a completely accurate depiction of him? Because the *possibility* of it being a cut and paste job does not negate the evidence, right?

I think you are greatly confused about burden of proof issues in general.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM

I think the ACORN people did what was shown on the tapes, but what did they do that one could prosecute for. The did a lot of things that should get their funding cut off, but nothing for which to be prosecuted.

               The people at the top who stole the money should be prosecuted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 11:39 PM

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. My own opinion is that it's too early to tell whether or not funding for ACORN should be cut off, and that investigations into the matter are entirely appropriate, but that judgments shouldn't be made until the results of the investigations are reported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM

"The possibility renders your "evidence" worthless."

I haven't produced any evidence. You haven't produced any evidence.

What the hell does Rush Limbaugh have to do with the validity of these tapes? Someone altered a tape of him and that means the undercover people did the same? Get a grip.

"they were giving advice about how to report income" So now CC says Acorn did do something wrong with out waiting to see the outcome.

How can you twist things around so far as to say Acorn did something wrong but thier funding should not be cut off because there is no evidence they did anything wrong?

There are thousands of organizations that do what ACORN claims it does. They go about their business quietly and correctly without causing a controversy. Acorn is making the good organizations look bad.

ACORN blows it's own horn about how great it is, covers up it's own corruption even front it's own board, collects dues from it's poor members and shakes down businesses for protection money like the Mafia does. All they want is more and more money. Then they play an Enron style shell game with the money through their 300+ entities.

Take that money and give it to reputable organizations that do it right. Then more of it will actually benefit the poor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 12:47 AM

Please show me where I have said that the accused employees never did anything wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

OMG.
No.
The point is that a heavily edited tape is not evidence of anything.
Is that so hard to "get a grip" on?
Really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM

The tape wasn't edited!


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