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BS: Joe the Plumber

GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM
SINSULL 17 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM
SINSULL 17 Oct 08 - 03:04 PM
Amos 17 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM
Stringsinger 17 Oct 08 - 03:07 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM
Alice 17 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 03:31 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM
SINSULL 17 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM
robomatic 17 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM
SINSULL 17 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM
PoppaGator 17 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM
heric 17 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM
PoppaGator 17 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM
dick greenhaus 17 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM
PoppaGator 17 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM
artbrooks 17 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM
Bill D 17 Oct 08 - 05:48 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM
Bill D 17 Oct 08 - 06:35 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM
Arkie 17 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 08 - 07:02 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Oct 08 - 07:05 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 08 - 07:06 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM
Donuel 17 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,number 6 17 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM
katlaughing 17 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM
Ebbie 17 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Oct 08 - 07:29 PM
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Subject: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

I am pretty disappointed with the way this man has been treated by the media..but I think it is exposing the snottiness many people have about working people, tradeswomen, etc. Here is a hardworking man (to all appearances), a single father, trying to buy a small business, plying a trade...now the whole country knows he is unlicensed (and I think both campaigns need to cut all the red tape they can to expedite him getting a license asap, get him private plumbing tutors or whatever to pass any tests), owes under $2K in back taxes, etc. etc. And I do think Obama was snarky about plumbers..well, do you know any plumber who makes $250K a year? I suppose some do and more power to them. When I need a plumber I am willing to pay fairly well. Actually, come to think of it I am descended from plumbers on my mother's side..in Texas..where they had to climb under houses with scorpions and snakes..in the Midwest where this guy is from they have ice and snow to deal with...I am pretty disgusted with all the jokes on Letterman, etc. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

No one looks good in this one, mg. Joe the Plumber for whatever reason told a fib to Obama and it was caught on tape. McCain and Obama jumped all over that conversation in the debate to support their tax plans bringing Joe front and center. I bet he wishes he had avoided that rally altogether. No one owes him anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:04 PM

The last plumber I had any dealings with was a nice guy in NYC who collected antique cars and drove around in a vintage Corvette to and from work. He handled mainly industrial accounts and did first rate work earning him a reputation for fairness and good work. He had to turn away business. And yes, he made well over $200,000. He also employed numerous people whom he trained to get their plumber's licenses.
We relied on him for our regular maintenance and knew that in an emergency he or a trained substitute would be there within an hour. We paid a little more for the service and never regretted it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM

The source of the problem was McCain electing to makie him into an iconic symbol of something he was not--namely, someone who would get hurt by Obama's tax plan. That was just sheer misassessment or falsification on McCain's part, but it was McCain who made that choice.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:07 PM

The McCain campaign should run Joe the Plumber for VP because he has been vetted more than Scary Palin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

Depending on if you're doing the plumbing work for a salary or own the company and have employees, the salary varies. If I were to in general judge a contractor's income based on the price an electrical contractor in the neighborhood charges, he'd do very well.

At one point I heard that Joe the Plumber isn't even registered to vote. Kind of makes you wonder what all of the fuss is about.

If he's smart, he'll license the name "Joe the Plumber" and sell the rights to it to a high bidder. Cover his problem with the back taxes, give him something to use to take the classes he needs to get certified or licensed, whatever. Have a little left over for child support.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM

I do think that there is a feeling in the US that "mechanics" -- those who work with hands, those who build the houses and fix the cars, are somehow less than someone who sits in an office and has a college degree. I heard someone who I figured to be an out-of-work stockbroker saying that the head of the NYSE deserved his multi-million dollar salary more than Boeing machinists deserved a raise because he'd gone to college and spent years learning his stock in trade (no, I'm NOT sorry!). I figured the speaker didn't know much about machinists and abysmally ignorant of what it takes to become one.

As I've said before, the sooner labor and management realize that each is dependent upon the other the sooner we can get on with doing what needs to be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM

Joe the "plumber" lied. He's not really a plumber. He later admitted that he doesn't really mean to buy a business. It was all a set up for him to get his 15 minutes of fame on Rush Limbaugh. He did not help out other working class people at all in doing what he did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:31 PM

How do you figure he is not a plumber? Does he not do plumbing work for a plumber? What could he be called other than a plumber, unliscensed if you will? He might not be able to buy the business because of the licensing problem, which I think people now have a duty to help him obtain. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM

I'm The Man That Built the Bridges
Words and Music by Tom Paxton

I cleared the rocks and timber from the wild New England shore,
I labored long and hard to make it grow.
I built the first log cabins and I raised a family,
Told King George and all his Redcoats where to go.

    [Cho:]
    I'm the man that built the bridges.
    I'm the man that laid the track.
    I'm the man that built this country.
    With my shoulders and my back.
    I'm the man that built the power dams,
    And oiled all the cars,
    And I laid down the cornerstone
    For this great land of ours.

I'm the boy that drove the wagons when the people headed west,
Dug canals and pulled the barges on their way.
I built and ran the factories, cut the timber for your homes,
Drove the oxen when I cut and baled the hay.

[Cho:]

I built the old sod shanties and I raised the prairie towns,
I made the railroad run from sea to sea.
I raised and drove the cattle to feed a growing land,
And the mining towns are there because of me.

[Cho:]

I stoked the mighty furnaces and rolled the flamin' steel,
I operated oil rigs and wells.
And when the country needed them, I built the planes and tanks,
To send the tyrants down to fry in Hell.

[Cho:]

Well, my face may not be pretty and my clothes are not the best,
And there ain't no bigshots in my family tree,
But if you're wonderin' who it was that made this country great,
You don't have to look no further, it was me.

[Cho:]


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

GUEST,mg - He has admitted that he is not buying and never was buying the business. He makes about $40,000 a year and owes back taxes. In no way is he in a position to buy this business. He tried to make Obama look bad on video and got caught in the lie.
If you like, he is a plumber but not a licensed plumber. I repeat - no one owes him anything. He got caught in his own lies.
He made both candidates look foolish. He made himself look like an ass. And he probably made a lot of decent working people angry with his stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

I haven't seen it where he says he is not buying and never was buying the business. Can someone please provide an exact quote and reference, which I usually don't ask for, but I don't like slander..oops I should say I like fact-finding. I think it is not unreasonable for somone with a 40K income to buy a $250 K business..I imagine it is done all the time. I think he might have been engaging in some future wishful thinking rather than making direct plans. I don't know the man.

I am a decent working people and so far am not angry with him. I do get angry with people who are disrespectful of working people, less educated people, etc.

Aren't they the sort we sing all these folk songs about when all is said and done? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Old old Allan King joke from a monologue on traffic, imagine this with a New York eastside accent:

"...there's a democracy about traffic. The same stalled tanktruck is holding up a banker, making a hundred thousand dollars a year, and a plumber, making a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year."

Joke dates from the early 70's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

I thought Obama's conversation with Joe the Plumber was pretty good - respectful, genuinely informative, and not in any way patronising. The way McCain a specimen example of phony populism, and letting the poor guy in for a media circus that could well end up hurting him badly.

Of course it could equally well end up doing him some good, but it's not McCain's place to play games with a stranger like that, without his approval. Of course perhaps it did have his approval, and that stuff about "my old buddy Joe" was actually true, and the whole thing was cooked up in advance, But I don't think that should be assumed.

The odd thing is, the so called issue at the heart of this - the extra tax involved on the difference between the $250,000 ceiling and the $280,000 Joe was imagining this plumbing firm as making - doesn't sound like enough money to actually make much of a disincentive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM

THE FARMER IS THE MAN

Oh the farmer comes to town
With his wagon broken down,
Oh the farmer is the man who feeds us all;
If we'd only look and see,
Well I think that we'd agree
That the farmer is the man who feeds us all.
The farmer is the man,
The farmer is the man.
Lives on credit 'til the fall,
Then they take him by the hand,
And they lead him from the land,
And the middleman's the one who gets it all.

When the lawyer stands around
While the butcher cuts a pound,
He forgets that it's the farmer feeds 'em all.
And the preacher and the cook
Go a-strollin' by the brook,
They forget that its the farmer feeds' em all.
The farmer is the man,
The farmer is the man.
Lives on credit 'til the fall,
With the interest rate so high, its a wonder he don't die,
And the middleman's the one who gets it all.

When the banker says he's broke,
And the merchant's up in smoke,
They forget that it's the farmer feeds 'em all.
If he'd only take a rest,
He could put 'em to the test,
Cause the farmer is the man who feeds 'em all.
The farmer is the man,
The farmer is the man.
Lives on credit 'til the fall,
His condition it's a sin,Cause his pants are gettin' thin,
We forgot that he's the one who feeds us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM

The Field Behind The Plow
Stan Rogers

Watch the field behind the plow turn to straight, dark rows
Feel the trickle in your clothes, blow the dust cake from your nose
Hear the tractor's steady roar, Oh you can't stop now
There's a quarter section more or less to go
And it figures that the rain keeps its own sweet time
You can watch it come for miles, but you guess you've got a while
So ease the throttle out a hair, every rod's a gain
And there's victory in every quarter mile

Poor old Kuzyk down the road
The heartache, hail and hoppers brought him down
He gave it up and went to town
And Emmett Pierce the other day
Took a heart attack and died at forty two
You could see it coming on 'cause he worked as hard as you

In an hour, maybe more, you'll be wet clear through
The air is cooler now, pull you hat brim further down
And watch the field behind the plow turn to straight dark rows
Put another season's promise in the ground

And if the harvest's any good
The money just might cover all the loans
You've mortgaged all you own
Buy the kids a winter coat
Take the wife back east for Christmas if you can
All summer she hangs on when you're so tied to the land

For the good times come and go, but at least there's rain
So this won't be barren ground when September rolls around
So watch the field behind the plow turn to straight dark rows
Put another season's promise in the ground
Watch the field behind the plow turn to straight dark rows
Put another season's promise in the ground


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM

Do a Google Search on Wurzelbacher (his real name) and you will find multiple reports on Joe the Plumber.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM

did a google search and don't have time to pursue this much now..also had googled joe the plumber. I have not come across the information regarding him never intending to buy the company. Can someone please get more specific on that. You would think that would pop up in the first few hits. Rapaire, you are a librarian with vast resources at your disposal. Can you please give us a reference to that. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

Poor Joe got more attention than he was figuring on, but perhaps that's fitting because his intention was to "corner" and embarrass Obama, based upon his complete misunderstanding of Obama's actual tax policy.

Joe is typical of a large number of right-leaning American voters who have been regularly voting against their own economic interests for a number of interrelated reasons encouraged by the neoconservative propaganda machine: "social conservative" considerations related to religion and/or sexuality, a general prejudice against the less affluent population based upon the completely false assumption that the beneficiaries of various progressive programs would be people other than themselves (specifially, people of racial/ethnic groups other than their own), and most tellingly, fantasizing that one is likely to (1) get rich and then (2) benefit from Republican policies favoring the rich (which of course are currently making it especially unlikely that he'll ever be able to pull himself up by his bootstraps).

It may or may not be remotely possible for Joe to buy his boss's business; first of all, the boss will need to be in a position to sell out and retire, which may be problematic in these hard times.

But even granting that Joe might be able to achieve his ambition, he's taking a very long leap of faith when he's worried about earning a net income of more than a quarter-million dollars from a business whose current gross is not much more than that, and then worrying about the "extra" taxes he might have to pay after he becomes several times more affluent than he is today.

It would make a lot more sense for Joe to base his opinion and his vote upon his current real-life economic situation, which is one that he shares with the vast majority of Americans, black and white alike.

He may be sufficiently deluded to still believe in the "trickle-down" theory, which is basically a scare tactic: you'd better agree to ever-more-favorable treatment for the already-overprivileged, or else they'll quit providing jobs for you to hold.

If the current crisis hasn't served to shake people's faith in that shopworn neoconservative myrh, I don't know what will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

The truths on this story are changing rapidly. I could have sworn I saw a quote from Joe that he had no realistic short term possibilities of buying, but it's not included in what I think is the most current and accurate summary (for the moment), here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJgQMVekT3Jg&refer=home


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

"I am pretty disappointed with the way this man has been treated by the media..but I think it is exposing the snottiness many people have about working people, tradeswomen, etc. Here is a hardworking man (to all appearances), a single father, trying to buy a small business, plying a trade...now the whole country knows he is unlicensed (and I think both campaigns need to cut all the red tape they can to expedite him getting a license asap, get him private plumbing tutors or whatever to pass any tests), owes under $2K in back taxes, etc. etc. "

Oh boo hoo. What a tough break. The fact that he was able to make a living by taking short cuts that others have the honor to ignore doesn't seem to bother you?   No one is throwing the cuffs on him, and if you are going to blame anyone, blame that sorry-ass McCain who kept bringing him up.   If it wasn't for the winded shit-stirrer, no one would have discussed Joe the Plumber.

Wake up MG!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

Anyone who might be Googling, see if you can find any information on Joe's close relative who apparently shared in the proceeds of the Keating 5 savings-and-loan scam, along with (guess who) John McCain.

This person is said to be an uncle, or maybe an older cousin, also currently living in Ohio, with the exact same name as Joe: Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher.

I heard this more than 24 hours ago from a reputable source (NPR, if I'm not mistaken), but since I haven't heard of any growing controversy, perhaps it's not true after all.

***********************************

Plumbers are certainly respectable human beings in general, and they are VERY capable of making very respectable incomes. One of the best aspects of their profession is that it is absolutely recession-proof and crisis-proof: When times are hard, you can put off buying a new car, you can eat out less often, etc., etc., but if your toilet malfunctions, you WILL call the plumber and pay him whatever he asks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM

Dear boo hoo...what short cuts are we talking about? I think I heard him say he works 10 to 12 hours a day..doing work that involves twisting, cramping, filth, etc. What short cuts again?

This sneering has great implications for trying to raise people out of poverty..and the trades are one of the best ways out for those who are not academically inclined..sneer and keep on sneering and fewer and fewer people will follow this path, that our ancestors followed most of them...and some will be condemned to poverty, crime etc. A very ugly underbelly of America is showing itself now. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

Extract from the New York Times, Oct. 17:

As it turns out, Joe the Plumber, as he became nationally known when Senator John McCain made him a theme at Wednesday's final presidential debate, may work in the plumbing business, but he is not a licensed plumber.

Thomas Joseph, the business manager of Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics, based in Toledo, said Thursday that Mr. Wurzelbacher had never held a plumber's license, which is required in Toledo and several surrounding municipalities. He also never completed an apprenticeship and does not belong to the plumber's union, which has endorsed Mr. Obama. On Thursday, he acknowledged that he does plumbing work even though he does not have a license.

His full name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher. And he owes back taxes, too, public records show. The premise of his complaint to Mr. Obama about taxes may also be flawed, according to tax analysts. Contrary to what Mr. Wurzelbacher asserted and Mr. McCain echoed, neither his personal taxes nor those of the business where he works are likely to rise if Mr. Obama's tax plan were to go into effect, they said.


From the "Toledo Blade":

...Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell's license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work.

He is also not registered to operate as a plumber in Ohio, which means he's not a plumber.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was hired by Mr. Newell six years ago and that the possibility of him eventually buying the company was discussed during his job interview.

He said it's his understanding he can work under Mr. Newell's license as long as the licensed contractor works on the same site.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he is working on taking the Ohio plumbing contractors' license test.

Mr. Wurzelbacher's notoriety has raised the ire of Tom Joseph, business manager for Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, who claimed that Mr. Wurzelbacher didn't undergo any apprenticeship training.

"When you have guys going out there with no training whatsoever, it's a little disreputable to start with," Mr. Joseph said. "We're the real Joe the Plumber."

Mr. Joseph said Mr. Wurzelbacher could only legally work in the townships, but not in any municipality in Lucas County or elsewhere in the country.

"This individual has got no schooling, no licenses, he's never been to a training program, union or non-union, in the United States of America," Mr. Joseph said....


The question about buying the business seems to be whether or not he could ever afford to do so. A divorce action in 2004 (it seems to be, or perhaps 2006) showed an income of about $40,000 per year. He does seem to be a registered voter (although his name might be misspelled), according to the Lucas County (Ohio) elections office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM

"what short cuts are we talking about?"

Working without a license, not getting the required training.

No one, other than yourself, is sneering at this man. He is not going to jail for these infractions.

McCain tried to turn him into a campaign ploy and it backfired. "Joe the Plumber" was brought up two dozen times after he was turned into a talking point.   The Republicans focused the media on him and you cannot blame the media for doing their job.   The internet was abuzz with searches from INDIVIDUALS like you, and if people are interested, the media will follow. Face the facts MG!


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

If McCain was trying to appeal to the small business owner whe cleared a quarter million a year, he probably did----to all ten of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

Lots of people work without licenses and without training. As long as they do not mislead their consumers, and can do the work, I won't condemn them..it is far better if they do have licenses and ongoing education and good training to start with and I hope that there are more doors open to people to obtain all these things, starting with Joe Sixpack the Plumber. He is probably someone who could have benefited from career counseling in the past, and still could. Part of the problem, at least in the past, was there were many obstacles to getting into the trades. They were not easy to get into...all sorts of rules etc. and favors to family members etc. So a person could have had, at least in the past, all the good intentions in the world and not have broken in...this used to be the case and I used to be involved in these issues long ago. Hopefully it is changed. I haven't kept track. Hopefully there is a good technical college near him and he and others can get their proper certificatons. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

MG, I am in agreement with you that work in the building trades should not be "sneered at," but I am dumbfounded that you think that this particular guy is owed favcorable treatment:

"I think both campaigns need to cut all the red tape they can to expedite him getting a license asap, get him private plumbing tutors or whatever to pass any tests."


There are plenty of individuals who could use a break or two like that, including many who did not set out to stir up trouble with a Presdential candidiate they oppose for questionable reasons.

If Joe has half a brain, or even if he just knows anyone with a bit of imagination, he should find some kind of a way to capitalize on his 15-minutes-of-fame. Why he should be given any additional help, to the exclusion of thousands of other plumbers who have undergone training and paid for licenses, etc., and who are paid up on their taxes, is beyond me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM

MG - I don't think that there is a "dislike" of Joe the Plummer and I do believe everyone would like to see him succeed. I also do not think people are "sneering" at him, or at the profession.

You also paint a rosey picture of unlicensed tradespeople, which is clearly out of sync with reality.   I assume that if you have no problem with unlicensed tradespeople earning a trade, you also welcome with open arms the illegal aliens that are trying to feed their families?

You seem to twist the words to make it sound that this is some sort of looking down at trades. I think the message is pretty damn clear - Obama is trying to make it easier for families to survive AND prosper, so that someone like Joe can get to a position where he can purchase a business. I would love to be able to afford $250,000 to buy a business, but it is not within my reach - thanks in great deal to the past 8 years.

The bottom line for me - when I ask if I am better off than I was 8 years ago, the answer is a clear "no". We need a change and the change won't come from McCain.   If Joe the Plummer had the counseling that you mentioned, he would realize that Obama's tax plans would put him in a better position to receive training and save to afford that business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM

Because he has been badly harmed by all this, that is why. I don't know his tax situation. Maybe his money went to his divorce lawyer. I know if it is property tax you can not pay for a few years. I personally would send him a few dollars to help pay his taxes (he could promise to fly out if I need a plumber). He has been the butt of all sorts of joke and nasty comments and people are probably snooping through his garbage right now. I don't know how he set out to stir up trouble..didn't the campaign come to his block? I don't think he traveled to see the campaign. I think they said he was playing ball with his son and spoke his mind, which he gets to do. I doubt he is a legal or financial whiz or probably very business minded, and probably the same could be said of his boss, and many many small operators around this country...who know how to rescue us from many big and small emergencies. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

I am an omniist and I wish the illegals well as well. I know many are unliscenced. I never could spell that word. It is a complicated situation, for security reasons especially. I don't have any desire to go after them, I don't seek to deport them. I know many are involved around here. I do hope we don't allow terrorists to sneak in with them is my biggest concern. For all I know Joe what's his name could be illegal also...except he is registered to vote, perhaps with false documents. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM

Skipping the "is he or isn't he" stuff, and going back to the $250K issue - it is my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong (you are all generally pretty good at that), that the tax rate in question (35% vs 39%, I think) applies to adjusted gross income, which would be income after all deductions, including business expenses (including overhead, salaries, licenses, etc) are taken out. If so, and if he were to clear over $250,000 per year, he would be a well-paid plumber indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:48 PM

There are reasons why one is supposed to get a license to do work like plumbing. When those reasons are applied fairly, it benefits everyone.

I almost bet that, if Joe cann't 'yet' pass the exam, there are jobs he is not able to do in plumbing...but if he takes a job and hits an area beyond his expertise, the temptation is to fake it & hope, rather than farm out the job and lose money.

   *I* can fix a leaky faucet or clean a drain or run a line for water to a refrigerator, but I sure can't install sump pumps or do copper fittings....etc.

Joe needs that official license.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM

One of the indications of maturity is when you step back and say, "I can't do this. Now I call in the professionals."

By the way, from something I read (in the "Blade" I think) and didn't extract, he was playing football with his son in his front yard when Obama came along. Also, the tax money owed is for income tax, not property tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM

Plenty of people who do stuff like plumbing who don't know what they are doing, and they give rise to a lot of valuable trade making good by people who do know what they are doing.

Licensing for a skilled job like plumbing or electrics, where mistakes can be pretty disastrous, aren't red tape. They make sense in the same way that insisting on the same kind of licensing for drivers does.

When a politician picks up a member of the public and starts using them as a club to beat their opponent over the head with, as McCain did, that is not going to be comfortable for that club.

I hope Joe manages to parley his fifteen minutes of fame in such a way as to come off better. But it's liable to be a rough ride, and that is McCain's doing. (And perhaps his own choice to some extent.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

My understanding is that he owes back taxes because he is against taxes on principle.

(If my toilet malfunctions, I fix it myself. It's not that hard to do.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:35 PM

(depends.. I have a toilet with a weird valve/flush system. It leaks a bit, and the innards can't be replaced off-the-shelf. It may have to be totally disassembled and new works put in. I 'might' be able to do it.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

Now it seems that the McCain campaigh is blamin' Obama for exploiting Joe the Plumber and getting him in trouble for not being licensesd...

Ahhhhhh, excuse me, but who brought the guy up in the debate???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM

It's easy to take apart a toilet and completely rebuild it with all new innards. I know... I've done it. No sweat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Arkie
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM

What I heard was that "Joe" later commented that he had wanted for sometime to put hard questions to a politician to make them squirm. He had his chance. McCain, as he has done numerous time jumped on something to detract from his own record as well as avoid dealing with issues of real concern. So it becomes a matter of judgment. Again, McCain did not use good judgment. He tackled a subject without knowing the details. Actually, that seems to be a pattern. Not knowing, or possibly caring, about the details. His opinion of American voters must be they are so stupid they will accept his word as truth or fact irregardless of the number of times he is disproven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:02 PM

I've replaced the toilet innards several times, but I wouldn't want to do it on the toilet in my master bathroom. It's air-propelled low-water flush and sounds like a jet plane when flushed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:05 PM

"Because he has been badly harmed by all this, that is why. "

What are you smoking? In what way has he been "badly harmed"? Showing his mug on TV starting to upset him? Just say no? Uncovered for dodging his taxes? Tough! You do the crime, do the time.

This plumber is not the victim here. Stop your evil twisting, it doesn't work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:06 PM

If he didn't want the attention, he wouldn't be appearing on all of the talk shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

He is loving it. He has not been "hurt" at all by the attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM

you can drive without a license. You can plumb without a license.
You can even become president without a license, a knowledge of history or even common sense.

Joe has been up to his elbows in shit and so is the country.

Joe will be yesterday's news and carry a legacy that will serve him well if he ever passes his license test.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

"put hard questions to a politician to make them squirm I've seen plenty of clips of that happening to politicians, including Thatcher and Blair, getting ambushed by a member of the public with a tough question they couldn't handle.

The interesting thing is that that didn't happening in this encounter. Looked to me as if Obama handled it perfectly well, no squirming, no flanneling, no sweat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM

just the 6:00 o'clock mainstream news and good ol' time politiks guys.

"Life is a carnival--two bits a shot
Saw a man with the jinx in the third degree
From trying to deal with people--people you can't see
Take away, take away, this house of mirrors
Give away, give away, all the souvenirs
We're all in the same boat ready to float off the edge of the world"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM

From the Washington Post:

"Wurzelbacher, whose legal name is Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, owes the state of Ohio $1,182 in personal income taxes, according to tax records that show a lien for that amount filed against him in January 2007."

From Countdown, last night, on MSNBC:

1) "Joe the Plumber" is not a plumber.

2) "Joe the Plumber" does not have his own business but works for a contractor.

3) "Joe the Plumber" is not buying his boss' business.

4) "Joe the Plumber's" boss does not make $250,000/year but approximately $100,000.

5)"Joe the Plumber" does not make $250,00/year but approximately $ 40,000/year.

6)"Joe the Plumber" has appeared on Conservative talk radio and may be a "shill".

They also said, on Countdown or the Rachel Maddow Show, that he is NO relation to the Keating Five person of the same surname. Of course, the way McCain's spin factor changes every few hours, that may be out of date, already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM

"Lots of people work without licenses and without training. As long as they do not mislead their consumers, and can do the work, I won't condemn them..it is far better if they do have licenses and ongoing education and good training to start with..."

I've hired many a plumber in the rentals I managed and believe me, I want a licensed one. If a plumber botches a job, whether through ruining a wall or breaking a water line or just plain not finding a leak, I want recourse. I also want the person to be bonded or at least bondable and I want him to have insurance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:29 PM

I just have the feeling our ancestors are looking down at us right now and thinking is that how they feel about us. mg


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