mudcat.org: BS: The Debates: Members Only
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]


BS: The Debates: Members Only

Charley Noble 17 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM
Ron Davies 17 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM
Ron Davies 17 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,heric 16 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM
Janie 16 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM
CarolC 16 Oct 08 - 08:19 PM
TIA 16 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 08 - 08:06 PM
dick greenhaus 16 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM
Alice 16 Oct 08 - 07:52 PM
Alice 16 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM
Alice 16 Oct 08 - 07:43 PM
Azizi 16 Oct 08 - 07:19 PM
heric 16 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 PM
Alice 16 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM
heric 16 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM
dick greenhaus 16 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM
PoppaGator 16 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM
CarolC 16 Oct 08 - 06:01 PM
Charley Noble 16 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM
Amos 16 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM
Uncle_DaveO 16 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM
dick greenhaus 16 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM
frogprince 16 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM
Charley Noble 16 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM
Charley Noble 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM
Azizi 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM
Azizi 16 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM
Charley Noble 16 Oct 08 - 12:06 PM
Amos 16 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,heric 16 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM
SINSULL 16 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM
Charley Noble 16 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM
irishenglish 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM
Amos 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM
Big Mick 16 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM
Charley Noble 16 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM
CarolC 16 Oct 08 - 10:41 AM
irishenglish 16 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM
Bill D 16 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM
SINSULL 16 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM
Bill D 16 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM
TIA 16 Oct 08 - 10:02 AM
Azizi 16 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,heric 16 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

I'm also sure that Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher has some regrets about the media exposure but he's also taking advantage of it by appearing on morning talk shows at the national level.

You reap what you sow!

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Bloomberg says the tax lien--back taxes-- is still active.

Perhaps such a high profile was not the best idea for Joe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM

As Azizi 12:07 PM and Amos 2:13 PM (Trailhead link) note, Joe's name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, (obviously of German descent (Wurzel: root, Bach: brook).

Amos' link also points out that Joe is such a strong tax opponent he's already been in hot water with the state of Ohio--lien by Ohio against him for $1,182.98. I have a copy of the docket record by the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, Toledo Ohio.

I wonder how closely McCain wants to be linked to such a tax protestor. Or maybe he's making a play for the Libertarian votes.

And as others have noted, Joe is not remotely close enough to $250,000/ yr. profit to be affected--especially since he's not even a registered plumber, nor does he have the money to be buying a company any time soon. And he himself has stated this.

He sounds more and more like a malcontent who thinks none too clearly. I wonder about the current status of Ohio's case against him. Has it been settled?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM

It's quite fascinating to watch these bloggers working at lightning speed, beating out the more professional news orgs, and getting cited by the lesser news orgs with less exacting standards. They get the scoop, but then have to apologize and modify.

On one of skarpi's Iceland threads, Emma B tracked down what seemed to be the original source of blogged news that was inflaming the sentiments of Icelanders, such as an alleged mob attack on the Iceland embassy, while no one else could find any reference to it in google news sources.

One can imagine some harm resulting from a wave of emotion caused by temporary misinformation (although it would have to occur very quickly.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

The debate swayed at least one undecided voter to Obama. Had a client who was undecided arrive a little late today because she went to vote early. The debate last night convinced her to vote for Obama.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:19 PM

We have a small (very small) business, and we will do very well under the Obama plan. Both as individuals, as well as business owners. Our business will not be taxed for capital gains (yay!) and we'll get a 50% tax credit to provide our employees (me and JtS) with health insurance. And we'll get a big tax cut on our personal income taxes.

Sounds good to me!

:-D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

Okay, I smelled this rat in real time. I've been running a small business for 16 years. We celebrate when we break even at year end. A profit of $250,000 in one year would be unheard of in my business and all related businesses that I deal with. As we watched, I asked my wife and business partner why the hell we're doing this instead of plumbing!

BTW, I *am* the engine of job creation that McCain-Palin screech about, and I am damn sure not voting for them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:06 PM

With a name like "Wurzelbacher" there could be quite a few ways of spelling it and misspelling it.

......................

The most alarming bit in the debate when McCain said that wanting nuclear power plants "to be safe" was an "extreme position". Wow!:

"We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess.

Sen. Obama will tell you, in the -- as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM

""While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company's estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that."

You're damn straight it would be even less than that. Total revenues do not include wages, materials, office expenses, transportation, health care, or any of another dozen items. I strongly suspect that with a total gross revenue of $100,000 in the plumbing business you'd be lucky to take home a quarter of that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:52 PM

From the Wikipedia page, this info reveals some things about Joe the plumber that may get him in some hot water ;-)

---------

"In his interview on ABC's Good Morning America on October 16, Wurzelbacher stated that his two current plumbing jobs were for a gas station and for a shopping center, Levis Commons. Both are commercial enterprises. [6]

This small firm is the business Wurzelbacher described to Obama as making more than $250,000 per year.[8] According to MSNBC, "While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company's estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that." [9]

The county Wurzelbacher and his employer live in, Lucas County, does require plumbers who perform work including sanitary drainage, water supply, storm drainage, and natural gas piping, to have licenses.[10] Neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

geez, there is already a wikipedia page about Joe the Plumber!

'Wurzelbacher likened Obama to Sammy Davis, Jr. in an interview with Katie Couric of CBS Evening News immediately after the October 15, 2008 presidential debate. Of his encounter with Obama in Holland, Ohio, Wurzelbacher told Couric: "I asked the question but I still got a tap dance…almost as good as Sammy Davis, Jr."

yuk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:43 PM

You can search the Ohio Construction Industry licensing board online.
It comes up with the last name Wurzelbacher for only one person in Ohio, Lawrence Wurzelbacher. His license expired in 2002.
There is no Joe Wurzelbacher. Does anyone know if Joe goes by the name Lawrence?

Go to:
http://elicense1-lookup.com.ohio.gov/SearchCriteria.asp

You"ll need to enter:
Board: Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board
Last Name: Wurzelbacher
State: Ohio

you don't have to fill in all the fields


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:19 PM

Another subject that McCain was dismissive about during last night's debate human rights violations that have led to the death of labor leaders in Columbia. That was the reason Obama gave for voting against that trade agreement with that Latin American nation.

McCain brushed off Obama's comments about the lack of basic worker protections in that nation and repeated his talking points about how much money US workers {or somebody in the USA} could have made had that agreement passed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

And a beautiful blue clicky it was, but this story is moving too fast:

"Andrew Sullivan has issued a correction on this story. There are TWO Charles M.Wurzelbachers -- Keatings' son-in-law was 37 in 1991, while the Ohio Charles is 83 years old."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM

I see I was 2 minutes behind heric in noting that item. But I did make a blue clicky!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 PM

I bet they've never heard of the game (or play) "Six Degrees of Separation."

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

Joe Wurzelbacher, yet another person not completely vetted before bringing them into the McCain campaign. Sheesh, they really are not very good at taking care of the details.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

and..oh my!


"... Joe Wurzelbacher is apparently related to Robert Wurzelbacher. Who is the son-in-law of (are you ready...?) Charles Keating!

Yes, that Charles Keating. The Charles Keating of the Keating 5 Scandal. For which John McCain was reprimanded by the United States Senate, for his involvement in attempting to illegally influence government regulators. The Charles Keating who John McCain has been trying to avoid have mentioned."

more...lots more..here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/the-joe-the-plumber-story_b_135319.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

(it seems that Joe the plumber AND his boss both lack local licenses to practice plumbing...not relevant to the debate, but fascinating side issue.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM

The two items that McCain flippantly dismissed were "Health of the Mother" and "Safe Nuclear Waste Disposal". Both topic deserve more discusstion than that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM

"What McCain actually said there was "health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything." (See Transcript of Third Debate.)

Which isn't actually the same as "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!". Paraphrases have to be a bit closer to the original than that."


Kevin, what the transcript doesn't tell you, but we all saw on TV, was that McCain made the "air-quote" gesture while speaking the word "health" in a snide tone of voice, with a lift of the eyebrow and a pause before and after ~ the exact non-verbal equivalent of interjecting an expression like "bullshit."

Now, that extra sentence about "you liberals..." was, indeed, a bit of an exaggeration, but one that fairly accurately depicts McCain's tone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:01 PM

Seems like he's exactly the sort of person who will benefit from Obama's tax plan. And more than likely, he'll benefit substantially more from Obama's plan than from McCain's plan.

In fact, he's exactly the sort of person Obama was telling him about... the people who are making less money now, who will save more on their taxes under the Obama tax plan than under the McCain plan, and who will be able to buy the business sooner than they would be able to under the McCain tax plan.

LOL!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

Here's the first two paragraphs about "Joe" from the Washington Post report above:

Joe the Plumber is not exactly a plumber, he's "not even close" to making the kind of money that would result in higher taxes from Democrat Barack Obama's proposals and has such an aversion to taxes that a lien was filed against him by the state of Ohio.

Such is the whirlwind of information that has come out about Joe Wurzelbacher of Holland, Ohio, since Republican John McCain made him famous in last night's debate. McCain mentioned him more than 20 times to use him as a symbol of hard-working Americans who would be hurt by Obama's tax policies. Obama and Wurzelbacher met earlier in the week in Toledo, where Wurzelbacher said Obama's plans to raise taxes on those making $250,000 a year or more would penalize him in his plans to buy the plumbing business for which he works.

Interesting! May not be worth a song.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

The real Joe the Plumber hopes top someday buy a business that will make 250K, but isn't anywhwere near it right now, and is not actually a licensed plumber OR registered to vote. Yet despite this, he wants to get his message out that in his mind, Obama's tax plan might someday hurt him. He sounds a bit unrealistic, and was certainly yet another bad choice for a cartoon icon by John McCain who seems to enjoy playing with symbokls instead of real polciies.


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

What McCain actually said there was "health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything." (See Transcript of Third Debate.)

Which isn't actually the same as "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!". Paraphrases have to be a bit closer to the original than that.

I know that in the UK the health ground for abortion, which was introduced on a general understanding it meant cases where there was grave risk to the life of the mother, has in practice been interpreted far more widely.

Though I'd be inclined to see McCain's priorities here as more founded on a wish to appease his electoral base rather than on any particular principal. I am sure he'd have no difficulty at all in arguing in the opposite direction if it was required.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Dick Greenhaus said,

hell, if Joe as a working plumber has saved enough over fifteen years to consider buying a business that nets a quarter-million annually, he should be in out Treasury Department. We need folks like that.

Nice thought, Dick, and clever, but on thinking it over, we don't know what he's been doing in plumbing. He may have been a highly-paid manager in a big plumbing company, now looking to buy his boss out. He may have inherited a pile of money, so he has a big down payment. He may have a sweetheart deal with the preexisting owner which allows him to pay off most of the "time payment" out of the profits over a period of years, which is not too unusual. That sort of thing can be very attractive to a seller of a business, for tax reasons.

But it's clear that Joe Plumber doesn't illustrate or establish the point McCain wanted to use him for.

Dave Oesterreich


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

hell, if Joe as a working plumber has saved enough over fifteen years to consider buying a business that nets a quarter-million annually, he should vbe in out Treasury DEpartment. We need folks like that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

One more vote for McCain's best moment, "you're not running against George Bush." But his statement on woman's health and abortions was apalling. To paraphrase: "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!".
As it happens, this is the first time I have actually sat watching McCain in person for anything like this much time. His facial expressions, much of the time, looked like something a very twisted person would subconciously carve on jack-o-lanterns.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM

"Robert Wurzelbacher"

400!

CN


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

Azizi-

"Say it isn't so, Joe!"

My suggested title for a new thread if the rumors of a connection between Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, the plumber, and Charles Keating are confirmed.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

Correction-

..."Robert Wurzelbacher who was involved in the Keating 5 scandal".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM

Turns out that Joe the Plumber may indeed be registered to vote in Ohio:

"Questions were being raised Thursday morning whether Mr. Wurzelbacher is a registered voter.

Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber's, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database"

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418/-1/NEWS



-snip-

That article didn't address all those other rumors about Joe The Plumber's family ties such as his possible relationship with Robert Worselbacher who was involved in the Keating 5 scandal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:06 PM

Amos-

And "Joe" may even inspire a new campaign ditty:

McCain is the plumber's friend!
With friends like him where will it end?
Will his campaign end with a bang or an epithet,
Or just swirl and gurgle down the toilet?

Cheerily,
Charley Ignoble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

"Plumber's Friend McCain"??? LOL! Ya know, he does fit the role rather well--he requires a lot of pull to get going, he needs to be handled continuously, he deals in sewage, and even when he's good he sucks.


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM

Yes, McCain was correcting the moderator by saying "climate change" but he didn't score any genius points with it.

In fact, he reminded me of my grandma reading highway signs out loud after she became senile. Just a glimmer of awareness.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

But guys we have safely run nuclear plants at sea for years.

Why did McCain stick out his tongue and grimace after the debate while he and his wife were standing on the stage?

Palin has cost McCain votes. Many of us who were wavering took it as an affront to our intelligence. Did he really think that she would get him the female vote? Reminds me of when bush chose Quayle and the rumor was that he resembled Redford so women would vote for him. It ended when Redford threatend a lawsuit, I believe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM

With regard to the plumber "Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo".

Is this an attempt by John McCain to recast his image once again, this time as "the plumber's helper"? If so, it's doomed to fail but it does evoke the awesome image of what his next big rally will look like as thousands, hundreds, and even dozens, of ardent supporters wave their plumber's helpers in the air.

Or is this attempt more of a subconsciousl reaction by McCain to where he feels his campaign is going, down the toilet!

I must view the Daily Show this evening and see if any of my quips are picked up!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM

Thanks Carol, I apparently missed that one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM

BEautifully put, you silver-tongued debbil, you.



A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

Same here, Mary m'luv. My daughter hollered from the other room, "She's not a role model for me!!!".

Despite all the posturing from the right wing pundits, this thing is over. The single biggest mistake made by this man was his selection of Palin, but it really didn't matter who he picked. The fruits of the seeds sown over 20 years ago, in grand karmic fashion, have borne fruit, but it is a bitter fruit indeed for the conservative crowd. They were always best when they operated from an honorable place of respectful opposition. When I first started out in the political scene, over 30 years ago, we had a common goal and approached it from different places. We didn't question honor, integrity, patriotism, or values anywhere near as much as is done today. Gingrich, and Reagan, changed that. They labeled us, they used wedge issues, and all this done to divert the attention of The Great Middle from the real agenda, which was to dismantle all the regulations, and agencies, that had evolved to protect the average person from the dangers of unbridled capitalism. I can remember having to lobby legislators hard to stop the other side from removing the enforcement of OSHA. I remember the failed attempts to make NAFTA a real plus for the North American (Canada, Mexico, USA) economies, and watched frustratedly as they simply turned it into another tool for US capitalists to take advantage of poor folks in emerging countries.

My Gran used to tell me that when a fast talker was trying to get you to look one place, look in the other. The US voters, or at least a large portion of them, seem to have finally figured that out, even if it took damn near destroying the economy to do it.

McCain belongs to a different era. His time has come and gone. And the proof will be on November 4. On November 5, I intend to wake up, gloat, spend a few days rubbing salt in the wounds of those that supported the opposition, ........ and then join in with President Obama and get about the people's business. We have an economy to rescue, we have relationships in the world to rebuild, and our actions affect the lives of many more in this world than just us. I believe this young man, Barack Obama, will be a transcendent political figure. I believe he will give all he has to restoring our country to its place as a respected member/partner/leader in the world community. And I believe he will lead a move to get us back on the track of progressive movement towards a better, more perfect (not perfect but more perfect), union.

All the best,

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

McCain: "by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away."

The last nuclear power plant to be brought on line in the States, I believe, was the one in Seabrook, New Hampshire. The process took over 10 years, and one of the two proposed units was never completed. The cost over-runs were massive and the electricity generated is still the most expensive supply option in the New England grid.

Now, I expect such plants would be less expensive to capitalize if they were brought on-line "right away." In fact, why not contract with the Russians to build them and save even more money, or the North Koreans? Who gives a squat for public safety as long as we achieve "energy independence"?

Some (insert your favorite epithet) environmentalist shellbacks would argue that uranium mining and reprocessing uranium fuel generate a lot of green house gas and environmental radioactive waste, and that storage of high-level spent nuclear fuel and other low-level radioactive wastes raise further questions about the viability of the nuclear power option. And there will always be the risk of a catastrophic accident sometime, somewhere.

However, even Obama is willing to review the nuclear option, although he did not clarify that during the debate. I respect his intelligence but remain skeptical of this option.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:41 AM

When McCain said "climate change" he was correcting the moderator, who said, "climate control".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

Some observations-true McCain did come out stronger, this clearly was his best debate, but the grimacing and facial expressions won't do him any favors. Obama definitely played it safe, staying on message, and I thought his best line of the night was when he said he could deal with hurt feelings between the two of them but what was more important were the issues. I know its a tactic, but it worked, people seeing that would think-damn, I can say anything to this guy and he's not going to take it personally.

Also, as SRS pointed out, Sarah Palin only has as much experience with special needs children as her child has been on this earth, which is not very long, so McCain's comments were a little off.
Obama's 100% negative ads was wrong, but I find it funny that McCain equates negative ads as being both policy dispute AND personal attacks. So are we now to believe that every ad for either candidate is a negative ad if the opponent is mentioned? I heard sappy violins when McCain claimed he was deeply hurt by John Lewis' comments.

Did anyone else catch McCain's repeating "climate change" a moment or two after Bob Schaeffer told them what they would be talking about? Also, it was kind of a trailing off statement, but in the abortion discussion, McCain said, he would not use litmus tests, but he did not think such a judge existed that could be fair and impartial who supported Roe v Wade. I didn't hear any pundits mention that one, but that is a huge statement to make. No litmus tests, but clearly if you support Roe v Wade, you cannot be a fair judge. Remarkable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

Oh,,right! Those "45 new nuclear plants".... There are VERY good reasons why no new nuclear plants have been built for years.

It takes a LOT of money to build one, and years to do so.
Sites are VERY hard to find, and many communities fight them. (NIMBY)
They require a lot of maintenance and training of staff.
The details and plans for storing of nuclear waste is NOT a settled matter.
They are serious targets for would-be terrorists.
They require a bureaucracy and an inspection program that is hard to impliment.

and....

Three Mile Island & Chernobyl

this is not to say that 'some' nuclear plants could not be built on a case-by-case analysis in the future, but 45 NOW is crazy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM

The best of the three debates but not exactly riveting.

I nearly fell on the floor laughing when I heard that Palin is a role model for all American women.

Betcha she's not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM

Well....I would have wanted Obama to say a bit more on a couple of subjects, rather than just re-quoting some statistics I have heard 20 times...but.... it soon became evident he doing only the minimum needed to hold to his basic message and not take any chances. The goal, at this point in the campaign, is to WIN, not to introduce unpredictable variables. Kinda boring, but he has a nice lead, and McCain's campaign is doing a fine job of digging themselves a deeper hole.
He answered McCain clearly when necessary and allowed McCain to crawl out on limbs in a vain attempt to link Obama with ANYTHING shady. I'm sure it played well with the conservative base, just as choosing Palin did, but he did almost nothing to attract undecided voters.

   McCain tried valiantly to distance himself from the Bush years, but he has too much baggage with Bush's name still clearly visable on it. (I wanted to hear Obama say, "Gosh John, it looks like we are BOTH running against the Bush legacy, but I think I'm doing more credible job of it!")

...so...barring some very strange event, I feel like Barack Obama has a pretty good advantage now....and as I said before, I don't envy him for what he's getting into.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:02 AM

I also think I heard McCain say "We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess. Senator Obama will tell you, as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe."

So, apparently it is an extreme position to say that nuclear power has to be safe?

Does that mean that the "moderate" position is that it does not have to be safe?

In the words of Mugatu, "I feel like I'm on crazy pills".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

Here's more on "Joe The Plumber":

Martin Eisenstadt's Blog

Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher related to Charles "the Crook" Keating. Oops.

October 15th, 2008 . by Marty

John McCain did great tonight in the debate. But every time John mentioned "Joe the Plumber," some of us in the campaign banged our heads against the wall. If Steve Schmidt had any hair left, I hear he would have been pulling it out tonight. He reportedly screamed at John's debate prep team tonight (out of earshot of reporters, of course). "You idiots - he's related to Charles Keating… of the Keating Five scandal!" They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who's spurned Barack Obama's tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher's background.

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who's Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating's son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Does any of this make Joe the Plumber a bad guy? Of course not. In fact, after that ill-fated night at the Watergate, he may finally be giving plumbers a good name. But at a debate where John goes full bore on Obama for guilt-by-association with William Ayers (and dodges a bullet by Obama not mentioning Keating Five), the press is going to bring it back front and center by midday tomorrow once they delve deeper into the most popular plumber in America".

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM

>And it's being reported that Joe's father Richard Wurzelbacher of Ohio is a contributor to a right wing conservative PAC, his uncle Randy is a McCain supporter, and there is a Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio who already owns a plumbing business.<

Wow. If this all turns out to be true, how could McCain have run an any more cynical campaign. I wondered at the time who Joe wanted to buy the company from.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 17 February 5:00 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.