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BS: The Reincarnation Game

Amos 25 Jun 08 - 12:57 AM
gnu 25 Jun 08 - 06:32 AM
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Subject: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:57 AM


Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives by Dr. Jim B.Tucker. St. Martin's Press, September, 2005. 256 pages. ISBN:0312321376 (hardcover). This book reviews our forty years of research with children who report memories of previous lives for the general public.  Dr. Tucker, who currently directs this research, describes recent American cases as well as Dr. Stevenson’s classic cases in Asia. Read a review of this book as it appeared in the Journal of Scientific Exploration , 19 (4), 2005 , by Harvard Biologist Michael Levin.



Larry Dossey, M.D., author of The Extraordinary Healing Power of Ordinary Things , calls Life Before Life  “extraordinarily important” and C. Norman Shealy, M.D., author of Youthful Aging—Secret of the Fountain , notes that it “adds to the increasingly impressive science of consciousness and the continuity of mind/memory.”





In 1997 Dr. Stevenson agreed to let Tom Shroder, an editor at the Washington Post, travel with him through India, Lebanon and the United States as he investigated cases of children who seemed to remember previous lives. Shroder, with Dr. Stevenson's permission, wrote a book based on those experiences called Old Souls: The Scientific Evidence for Past Lives. It was published by Simon and Schuster in 1999 and is available through any bookstore or online book seller. This link is for the hardcover edition, ISBN 0-684-85192-X.



This book is also out in paperback with a slightly different title, Old Souls: Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives from Fireside (a Simon and Schuster imprint) , ISBN 0-684-85193-8.



Books on Reincarnation by Dr. Ian Stevenson



1.  Chapter 19 "Reincarnation" by Dr. Ian Stevenson, in Parapsychology: Research on Exceptional Experiences , Edited by Jane Henry.  Routledge, 2005.  ISBN: 0415213606 (paperback). This book is an overview of current thinking in the field of parapsychology.  Leading researchers from the U.S. and U.K. offer their expertise regarding current psychical research.  Beginning with an introduction to the methodology used, the book addresses topics such as telepathy, precognition, psychokinesis, healing, apparitions, out-of-body experiences, and reincarnation.



2. European Cases of the Reincarnation Type by Dr. Ian Stevenson. McFarland & Company, 2003. 278 pages. ISBN: 0786414588 (hardcover).  This book examines eight European cases from the first half of the twentieth century and 32 European cases from the second half of the twentieth century.  It also includes a section on the belief in reincarnation among Europeans as well as a section comparing these beliefs with those of other countries and cultures. 



review  of Dr. Stevenson's book  European Cases of the Reincarnation Type  appears in the American Journal of Psychiatry  162:4, April 2005.



3. Children Who Remember Previous Lives: A Question of Reincarnation,  revised edition, by Dr. Ian Stevenson. McFarland & Company, 2001. 345 pages.  ISBN 0-7864-0913-4 (paperback). Dr. Stevenson describes, for the general reader, research conducted over the past forty years. He also addresses some of the questions frequently asked about these cases. New material related to birthmarks and birth defects, independent replication studies, a critique of criticisms, and recent developments in genetic study, as well as several more recent cases, are included. (The first edition, now out of print, was published by University Press of Virginia in 1987.)



4. Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects  by Dr. Ian Stevenson. Praeger Publishers, 1997. 2 volume set, 2080 pages.  ISBN 0-275-95282-7. Dr. Stevenson's latest work, and his most comprehensive to date. Detailed studies of over 230 cases from around the world. The book focuses on the birthmarks and birth defects of these subjects which seem to be related to an experience or experiences in a previous life, particularly to violent death. (Note: Vol. 2 is currently out of stock; when more information is available it will be posted here.)



5.  Where Reincarnarion and Biology Intersect by Dr. Ian Stevenson. Praeger Publishers, 1997. 248 pages. A synopsis of Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects . Available in two editions: hardcover (ISBN 0-275-95188-X)   and paperback (ISBN 0-275-95189-8) .



6. Unlearned Language: New Studies in Xenoglossy by Dr. Ian Stevenson. University of Virginia Press, 1984.  ISBN: 0813909945 (hardback). (University Press code "STUN".) Authentic instances of speaking a language that has not been learned normally suggest that another personality (perhaps one of a previous life) has learned the language. Dr. Stevenson presents lengthy reports of two such cases.



7.  Cases of the Reincarnation Type. Vol. IV, Twelve Cases in Thailand and Burma by Dr. Ian Stevenson. University of Virginia Press, 1983. This book is officially out of print but the Division has a few copies at $30.00 each plus shipping. Please contact us for ordering details .



8.  Cases of the Reincarnation Type. Vol. III, Twelve Cases in Lebanon and Turkey by Dr. Ian Stevenson. University of Virginia Press, 1980. This book is officially out of print but the Division has a few copies at $30.00 each plus shipping. Please contact us for ordering details.



9.  Cases of the Reincarnation Type. Vol. II, Ten Cases in Sri Lanka by Dr. Ian Stevenson. University of Virginia Press, 1977. This book is officially out of print but the Division has a few copies at $30.00 each plus shipping. Please contact us for ordering details.  



10.  Cases of the Reincarnation Type. Vol. I, Ten Cases in India by Dr. Ian Stevenson. University of Virginia Press, 1975. Meticulous and extended investigation of cases. This book is officially out of print but the Division has a few copies at $30.00 each plus shipping. Please contact us for ordering details.



11.  Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation by Dr. Ian Stevenson. University of Virginia Press, 1974, 2nd edition,  (the paper back edition,  ISBN: 0813908728, University Press code "STTCP" is currently available.) This is Dr. Stevenson's first book on the subject of cases of the reincarnation type



12.  Xenoglossy: A Review and Report of A Case by Dr. Ian Stevenson , University of Virginia Press, 1974. This book is officially out of print but the Division has a few copies at $25.00 each plus shipping. Please contact us for ordering details



Articles on Reincarnation and related topics available through the Division of Perceptual Studies:



STE1. The Evidence for Survival from Claimed Memories of Former Incarnations by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of the American Society for. Psychical Research 54:51-71 and 95-117, 1960.) Dr. Stevenson's early essay about cases suggestive of reincarnation and several interpretations of them. 



STE2. Some Questions Related to Cases of the Reincarnation Type by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 68:395-416, 1974.) A discussion of some frequently asked questions about reincarnation. 



STE6. A Preliminary Report of a New Case of Responsive Xenoglossy: The Case of Gretchen by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 70:65-77, 1976.) A report of a case in which the subject, under hypnosis, spoke and conversed in German, a language that she seems not to have learned normally.



STE3. The Explanatory Value of the Idea of Reincarnation by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease. 164:305-326, 1977.) A consideration of the ways in which the concept of reincarnation might supplement those of heredity and environment in explaining some poorly understood aspects of human behavior and development.



STE9. The Southeast Asian Interpretation of Gender Dysphoria: An Illustrative Case Report by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease. 165:201-208, 1977.) Suggesting that gender identity confusion may derive from influences of a previous life as a member of the opposite sex, Dr. Stevenson reports the case of a girl who claims to remember a previous life as a man.



STE7. A Preliminary Report on an Unusual Case of the Reincarnation Type with Xenoglossy by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of the American Society of Psychical Research 74: 331-348, 1980.) A report of a case of a woman who periodically assumes a second personality, speaking only a language she does not know in her normal state. She has also given verified details about another life she claims to have lived. 



STE17. American Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Nervous and Mental  Disease. 171:742-748, 1983.) Report of an analysis of 79 cases of American children who claim to remember a previous life. 



STE15. A Review and Analysis of "Unsolved" Cases of the Reincarnation Type: I. Introduction and Illustrative Case Reports by Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Emily Williams Cook et al. (Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 77:45-62, 1983.) Brief reports of 7 cases of the reincarnation type in which no deceased person corresponding to the child subject's statements has been found.



STE16. A Review and Analysis of "Unsolved" Cases of the Reincarnation Type: II. Comparison of Features of Solved and Unsolved Cases by Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Emily Williams Cook et al. (Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 77:115-135, 1983.) Report of an analysis and comparison of 856 solved and unsolved reincarnation cases with regard to 9 important features. 



STE20. The Belief in Reincarnation Among the Igbo of Nigeria by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Asian and African Studies XX:13-30, 1985.) A summary of the belief in reincarnation among the Igbo with a description of the repeater children, called ogbanjes by the Igbo people.



STE21. Characteristics of Cases of the Reincarnation Type Among the Igbo of Nigeria by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Asian and African Studies XXI:204-216, 1986.) A description of the principle features found in 57 cases of the reincarnation type occurring among the Igbo people. Several tables compare the incidence of the main features of the cases in nine or ten different cultures. 



STE25. Indian Cases of the Reincarnation Type Two Generations Apart by Dr. Ian Stevenson and Dr. Satwant Pasricha. (Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 54(809):239-246, 1987.) Cases of the reincarnation type from the early years of this century show features closely resembling those of cases whose subjects were born after 1965. 



STE23. Deception and Self-Deception in Cases of the Reincarnation Type: Seven Illustrative Cases in Asia by Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Satwant Pasricha and Godwin Samararatne. (Journal of  the American Society for Psychical Research 82:1-31, 1988.) Detailed reports of 7 cases of the reincarnation type in Asia that seemed to be authentic at first but, on investigation, proved to be best interpreted as instances of deception or self-deception. 



STE26. Two Correlates of Violent Death in Cases of the Reincarnation Type by Dr. Ian Stevenson and Dr. N. K. Chadha. (Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 55(811):71-79, 1988.) In the cases of children remembering previous lives that ended violently the interval between death of the deceased person whose life is remembered and the subject's birth is shorter, on average, than in cases having a natural death in the previous life. Also, children remembering violent deaths tend to speak about the previous life at an earlier age than do children who remember lives that ended naturally. 



STE27a. Three New Cases of the Reincarnation Type in Sri Lanka with Written Records Made before Verification by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease. 176:741, 1988.) Short summaries of three recent cases of the valuable type in which the child's statements were recorded in writing before they were verified. 



STE27b. Three New Cases of the Reincarnation Type in Sri Lanka with Written Records Made before Verification by Dr. Ian Stevenson and Godwin Samararatne. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 2:217-238, 1988.) A longer version of 15a, including more detail about the 3 cases reported.



STE29. A Case of the Possession Type in India with Evidence of Paranormal Knowledge by Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Satwant Pasricha, and Dr. Nicholas McClean-Rice. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 3:81-101, 1989.) Report of a case of a woman who, after an apparent trance state, awoke claiming to be a woman, unknown to the subject and her family, who had died 2 months earlier. 



STE31. A Case of Severe Birth Defects Possibly Due to Cursing by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 3:201-212, 1989.) Report of cases in which a child's congenital deformities appear to be related to a curse directed toward its mother during or before her pregnancy. Three cases of this type, including one published by a pediatrician in 1960, are briefly reviewed, and then a new case reported. 



STE34. Phobias in Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 4:243-254, 1990.) A discussion of the phobias that occur among many children who seem to remember a previous life, and some possible explanations for these phobias. 



STE38. A New Look at Maternal Impressions: An Analysis of 50 Published Cases and Reports of Two Recent Examples by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 6:353-373, 1992.) An analysis of 50 cases reported in the medical literature of instances in which a pregnant woman's experience of seeing (usually) a deformity on another person apparently resulted in a similar deformity (such as a birthmark or birth defect) on her baby. Two cases investigated by Dr. Stevenson are also reported. 



STE39. Birthmarks and Birth Defects Corresponding to Wounds on Deceased Persons by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 7:403-410, 1993.) A short summary of research on the cases of children who claim to remember previous lives and who have birthmarks or birth defects that correspond to wounds in the claimed previous life.



STE40. Regression Article. A Case of the Psychotherapist's Fallacy: Hypnotic Regression to "Previous Lives" by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis 36:188-193, 1994.) Hypnotic regression to presumed "previous lives" rarely evokes any evidence of real memories. Most of the "previous personalities" brought out during hypnosis are either fantasies or devised from historical novels, the sources of which can sometimes be identified. 



STE45. Does the Socio-Psychological Hypothesis Explain Cases of the Reincarnation Type? by Dr. Ian Stevenson and Dr. Sybo Schouten. (Journal of Nervous and Mental Disorder. 186:504-506, 1998.) Cases of the reincarnation type (in India and Sri Lanka) in which a written record of the subject's statements was made only after the families concerned had met did not have more statements and more correct ones than cases in which a written record was made before the statements were verified.



STE47. Do Cases of the Reincarnation Type Show Similar Features Over Many Years? A Study of Turkish Cases a Generation Apart  Dr. Jürgen Keil and Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 13(2):189-198, 1999.) In Turkey the features of 45 cases studied by one investigator were compared with the features of 45 other cases studied nearly a generation later by another investigator. Overall, the two groups of cases showed closely similar features. The cases appear to be a natural phenomenon occurring over many years.



STE49. Good summary article on reincarnation. The Phenomenon of Claimed Memories of Previous Lives: Possible Interpretations and Importance by Dr. Ian Stevenson. (Medical Hypotheses 54(4):652-659, 2000.) The hypothesis of previous lives can contribute to the further understanding of several conditions, disorders, or abnormalities (such as phobias observed in early infancy, gender identity disorder, and behavioral and physical differences in one-egg [monozygotic] twins) that are not adequately explained by genetic and/or environmental influences.



STE51. The Stability of Assessments of Paranormal Connections in Reincarnation-Type Cases by Dr. Ian Stevenson and Dr. Jürgen Keil. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 14(3):365-382, 2000.) Fifteen cases of children who claimed to remember a previous life were investigated twice and independently with an average interval of 22 years between the investigations. The reports were evaluated for evidence of a paranormal process. With the lapse of time informants lost some details; but with one possible exception there was no evidence of increased claims of paranormality in the later investigations.



REI25. An Unusual Birthmark Case Thought to be Linked to a Person Who Had Previously Died by Dr. Jürgen Keil and Dr. Jim B. Tucker. (Psychological Reports 87:1067-1074, 2000.) A report of a case of a Burmese subject who was born with birthmarks and birth defects that were thought to be linked to the death of his mother's first husband in a parachute accident.



REI26. A Scale to Measure the Strength of Children's Claims of Previous Lives: Methodology and Initial Findings by Dr. Jim B. Tucker. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 14(4):571-581, 2000.) 799 cases of children who claim to remember a previous life were analyzed using a scale that measured the strength of the claims. The analysis showed that in the stronger cases, the children tended to start talking about the previous life at an earlier age; they demonstrated more emotion in recalling the past life; and they showed greater facial resemblance to the deceased individual that they were said to have been.



STE52. Unusual Play in Young Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives. by Dr. Ian Stevenson (Journal of Scientific Exploration 14(4):557-570, 2000.) Children who, when they learn to speak express memories of previous lives, frequently engage in play that is unusual and has no model or other obvious stimulus in their family. The play seems to repeat the vocation or an avocation of the person whose life the child seems to remember. Sometimes the play reenacts the cause of death, such as drowning, of that person.



STE53. Ropelike Birthmarks on Children Who Claim to Remember Past Lives. by Dr. Ian Stevenson (Psychological Reports 89:142-144, 2001.) Description of birthmarks having the pattern of strands of a rope in a second known case includes some verification of the correspondence between the birthmarks and injuries from ropes on an identified deceased person.



REI29. Can Cultural Beliefs Cause a Gender Identity Disorder? by Dr. Jim B. Tucker and Dr. Jürgen Keil. (Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality 13(2):21-30, 2001.) Report of a child in Thailand who was born with a birthmark that matched a mark made on the body of his deceased grandmother. As he got older, he claimed to be his grandmother reborn, and he demonstrated cross-gender behavior.



STE54. The Similarity of Features of Reincarnation Type Cases over Many Years: A Third Study by Dr. Ian Stevenson and Dr. Erlendur Haraldsson. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 17(2):283-289, 2003.) The principal features of two series of cases suggestive of reincarnation in Lebanon were compared. The series were investigated about a generation apart by two different investigators. In three important features the two series were closely similar; in other features they were not similar, probably because of differences in the thoroughness of investigation in the two series.



REI30. Cases of the Reincarnation Type with Memories from the Intermission Between Lives by Poonam Sharma and Dr. Jim B. Tucker. (Journal of Near-Death Studies 23(2):101-118, 2005.)  A minority of children who claim to remember previous lives also claim to remember events between lives.  This analysis of statements from 35 Burmese subjects reveals patterns in the memories that they described.  A comparison of these reports to reports of near-death experiences indicates significant areas of overlap.



REI31.  Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives: Cases with Written Records Made before the Previous Personality Was Identified by Dr. Jürgen Keil and Dr. Jim B. Tucker. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 19(1): pp. 91-101, 2005.) A case is presented in which a written record, made before the deceased individual was identified, documented that the numerous statements made by a Turkish boy about a previous life were accurate for the life of a man who lived 500 miles away and died 50 years before the boy was born.  Other similar cases are reviewed.



STE55.  Children of Myanmar Who Behave like Japanese Soldiers: A Possible Third Element in Personality by Dr. Ian Stevenson and Dr. Jürgen Keil. (Journal of Scientific Exploration 19(2): pp. 171-183, 2005.) Among 750 children of Myanmar who claimed to remember a previous life 24 spoke about having been Japanese soldiers killed, presumably during World War II. None gave verifiable information, but they all showed unusual behavior, such as insensitivity to pain, dislike of hot weather and, distaste for spicy food, which are typical of Japanese soldiers, but not of Burmese persons. Genetic factors cannot explain these cases; neither can encouragement of such behavior by the children’s parents. Reincarnation is suggested as a third component of human personality illustrated by these cases.



REI32.  Some Bodily Malformations Attributed to Previous Lives by Dr. Satwant K. Pasricha, Dr. Jürgen Keil, Dr. Jim B. Tucker, and Dr. Ian Stevenson.  (Journal of Scientific Exploration 19(3):359-383, 2005.)  This two part article examines cases in which children were born with abnormalities that were attributed to wounds from a previous life.  Part I presents three cases in which evidence indicated a close correspondence between a child’s birthmark and a wound on a particular deceased person.  Part II describes four cases of birth defects that were attributed to previous lives and looks at the evidence supporting that attribution.   Photographs of the malformations are included.  



REI33.  Children who claim to remember previous lives: Past, present, and future research by Dr. Jim B. Tucker.  (Journal of Scientific Exploration, 21(3): pp. 543-552, 2007.)  The research with Cases of the Reincarnation Type is reviewed, beginning with Ian Stevenson's initial paper on the phenomenon in 1961.  Current projects and planned future projects are also discussed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:32 AM

Yeah, I konw, but I'll say it agaim... I will be coming back next time as an alcoholic woodpecker.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:40 AM

It's no good being an alcoholic woodpecker- far too sweet. You should be an alcoholic scrumpy.

All Amos's references remind me that more can be less.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

Amos! Here I thought you were a skeptic.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:58 AM

Some of my atoms and molecules were possibly involved in past lives, but they ain't talking.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:23 AM

It's demonstrable that there's a high probability that some of the atoms you breathe were once breathed by Julius Caesar, Mohammed, Gautama, Jesus (if that good man existed), Moses or Genghis Khan. I don't know if anyone has worked out the probability of any atom being breathed by ALL of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: bankley
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:28 AM

All at the same time ? hmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM

SIgh. Fall back on your particle-based clay-footed atomisms, oh ye darkened ones. LOL!

The thing is every time subjects like this come up, someone comes along and says there is no evidence yadda yadda.

So I thought it might be nicve to have a starting point for pointing out how much evidence, in sheer quantity, there is. Arguably it all has to be discounted, though, because it isn't laboratory evidence, and, hey, how ya gonna replicate reincarnation? So that kinda proves it, by that standard, anyway.

Brett: I believe in tempering my skepticism with a good solid dollop of naivete.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:35 AM

Radiolab had a program, I'm fairly certain, that had to do with molecules and how many you might encounter in a breath of air that someone ancient and famous exhaled. If it wasn't Radiolab it was probably Robert Krulwich.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:40 AM

Twenty-six recommended titles on "reincarnation research".

Christopher Bache writes one.


Brad Steiger's collected case histories.



A paper by Rabbi Gershom including links to two of his books on the subject.
Beyond the Ashes is the now-classic account of Reb Yonassan Gershom's personal encounters with hundreds of people from all walks of life, who have shared their memories of visions, dreams, and flashbacks that seem to becoming from another life during the Nazi Holocaust. In addition to these amazing true stories, Reb Gershom presents Jewish teachings about karmic cycles, the levels of the soul, views of the afterlife and reincarnation in Judaism, as seen in the light of traditional Jewish texts and modern discoveries. From Ashes to Healing is Reb Gershom's second book, and the companion to Beyond the Ashes. More than just a sequel, From Ashes to Healingcompletes the saga begun in the first book by presenting us with fifteen gripping testimonies of people who have found extraordinary healing through past-life memories, visions, and dreams with Holocaust themes.


Some interesting anecdotal extracts from several books.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

People love saying that there's "no evidence" for stuff they don't want to believe in in the first place. And they confirm it for themselves by completely avoiding all the available evidence or else refusing to allot any time to studying it or giving it serious and unbiased consideration... ;-) Thus is their chosen form of ignorance constantly re-affirmed to their own satisfaction.

I don't think life EVER ends...it just changes its outer form or manifestation, that's all. And then it moves on. I would certainly enjoy having a young body again. On the other hand, I'd also enjoy not having to worry about having a physical body (that ages) at all...and just being a free spirit.

Well, I'll see when I get there.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

Different vision of the Universe(s), Amos. It's natural for the human mind to be unwilling to conceive that it could be simply extinguished- where does all that thought, love, feeling, creativity go? So people naturally gravitate towards ideas that say, hey, you might have been born on December 1 1956 or whatever, but having started you'll go on forever, even if you appear to die on June 12 2029.

Sorry, I see it as childish, greedy and dangerous. Childish because it is wishful thinking, greedy because it craves personal immortality, and dangerous because people have fought wars over the precise details of how you get a good billet after death, and continue to do so.

Notions of reincarnation are not neutral - they have led to indifference to the lot of the poor and disadvantaged (because they deserve it from last time- viz Glen Hoddle), and refusal to engage with injustice because what is one lifetime's suffering compared to eternity?

So I'll stick to my atomism, and the idea that the world is at the level that hurts or pleasures us well reflected by what we see, and that social justice is something that people need to do to each other because that's the way we can all be most comfortable. We don't need fairies or ghosts.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:07 AM

Notions of reincarnation have also led to a depth of kindness and tolerance of others in many instances, Paul. Not to mention recovery from neuroses of variosu sorts that have been resolved by the "discovery" of prior incarnations.

As for immortality, there's no greed involved at all. Existence is not a zero-sum game.

There are lots of different opinions about what occurs and how in the passage from live to death. THe argument of reincarnation may or may not include the mechanisms known as "karma". Some cultures believe in reincarnation without any inheritance from prior lives.

The big question is two-fold. One is what subjective changes it may bring about in an individual to find mental impressions correlating to past existences, and whether or not that resolves emotional or somatic issues for him. her.

The other is whether there are any cases, or even many cases, of discovered past identities leading to evidence that could not have been discovered otherwise. There are many anecdotal recitations that appear to fill this definition, but life is messy and not rigorous in its logic the way good laboratory experiments are supposed to be.

But I am certainly not trying to persuade anyone to change their beliefs. I just thoguht a collection of reference and viewpoints might be of interest.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

Same old Mudcat...no free discussion if it doesn't meet lab standards.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM

Like I said, Paul, I'll see when I get there. ;-) The opinions of others about such matters don't worry me, and neither should mine worry them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Not to mention recovery from neuroses of variosu sorts that have been resolved by the "discovery" of prior incarnations.

Or the replacement of one neurosis by another (hopefully less damaging). The argument appears to be "it does some good so it must be true". Calx saccharis 250mg is commonly prescribed for pendulum plumbitis.

Some cultures believe in reincarnation without any inheritance from prior lives.

If there's "no inheritance" in what sense is it reincarnation? There has to be some way of telling that the "spirit" previously inhabited another body?

As for immortality, there's no greed involved at all.

That depends on what you have to do to get the immortality. St. Cyril had Hypatia scraped to death with scallop shells to book his place in paradise. Others incinerate busloads of kids, still others hate homosexuals to get to heaven via Jerusalem.

Note that I'm NOT making the opposite argument: that it's bad so it must be false. What I'm saying is that such beliefs are not warm fuzzy love-the-universe harmless conceits- they have real consequences for real people. Hence the need for good solid evidence before anyone acts on them. And the idea that a Malaysian boy doesn't like spicy food, so he must have been a Japanese soldier in a previous life, somehow doesn't convince.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:47 AM

Paul, if I thought that I would simply cease existing at death as a consciousness...and just vanish...hey, that would be great! That would be just like falling asleep, and I love falling asleep. It's a delicious possibility to contemplate, I assure you. It would mean no further difficulties of any sort to deal with.

And I do see that as a possibility...among various possibilities. I don't see it as the most likely one based on what I've experienced in this life so far, but it is a possibility that I'm open to. Like I said, I'll see when I get there.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

if I thought that I would simply cease existing at death as a consciousness...and just vanish

I doubt if it's that simple. Death is no problem, it's getting there that hurts, and I can imagine that a failing mind could produce some very unpleasant fancies (which will of course be culturally inspired). I hope I'm somewhere else when the time comes, fast asleep will do.

But I take a little comfort from the fact that a former friend, Dave, (who is still "alive" and "awake") appears to have no bad dreams as well as no identifiable thoughts, and that Louis Viljoen, who awoke from a persistent vegetative state, told his parents that he had experienced nothing, despite apparent movements as though he was dreaming. Sadly, Zolpidem didn't work for Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:03 PM

Darn right it's getting there that hurts! That's the whole problem with death as we know it. At least, that's the whole problem as far as I'm concerned. Some may fear the cessation of their being. I do not, because if my being ceased I wouldn't even know about it. Therefore it is nothing to fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

As Woody Allen put it -- I am not afraid of dying--I just don't want to be there when it happens.


I think to a very large degree the attitude you will take toward this collection of beliefs and indications of experience will depend on how you identify yourself. Some people are so attached to their vehicles they identify with them. Some folks feel the same way about their bodies. Some see themselves as an awareness center which is not identical tot he meatware. If you honestly think of yourself as meat, then of course the notion of surviving across the lifetime boundary is absurd.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:24 PM

Even perhaps more than their bodies, Amos, I think that people identify with their own mindset...all their old established opinions, beliefs, assumptions, habits, and prejudices. This is why most people immediately and instinctively attack and contend with any viewpoint that differs from their own. They subconsciously regard it as a direct threat to their own identity.

If they were simply to admit one thing..."I don't know for sure"...it would go a long way toward making them much more reasonable and less inclined to attack other's beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

Well, it's an onion sorta thing, in my view. Protoplasm is a powerful magnet. Fixed ideas are as well. Between these two highly charged zones, it's a wonder anyone ever gets out.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM

Yeah. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:28 PM

It's still to bad, imo, that we who do have some belief cannot discuss it among friends without being ridiculed. It's a sorry state when that happens...in 3D one would hope they'd just drift away to another conversation if they weren't interested. It is bullying and unkind to point fingers of derision, etc.

Oh, but why have a meaningful conversation when things can be so trivialised and threads on innocuous things can go on forever? Bah, humbug!

katwhomust'vebeenScroogeinapastlife!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:41 PM

Well, in 3D life one isn't standing on a street corner with a speaker that broadcasts everything one is saying to the hundreds of people idly passing by...

You can imagine what that would be like. It would attract a good deal of unwanted attention.

Well, that's what the Internet is like.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

Bet you can't guess how *I* might approach this topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:41 PM

No. Please tell us, Bill. :)

On second thought, I can wait until you get some experiences under your belt, so to speak. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM

What's the word on the street, Bobert? ;-) Will that dog hunt?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:18 PM

Bill:

You don't fool me. You come on like a pure-dee meathead, doing all the bows and cutrseys required by the Protocols of Solidity, and deep inside you are winking and blinking just waiting for out-of-body experiences, alien visitations, and guiding spirits armed with Tarot cards to come walking through your dreams informing you that your tour of duty has been completed, and you can stop pretending now.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

"Brett: I believe in tempering my skepticism with a good solid dollop of naivete."

That's a definition of a good skeptic. A good skeptic doesn't reject out of hand. A good skeptic wants to believe it's true but needs proof based on solid scientific evidence.

I sent your list off to the James Randi Educational Foundation. If you don't know who James Randi is then you are in for a very agreeable education. Check out www.randi.org. I also suggest www.skepticality.com and www.badastronomy.com. These are all good skeptical websites. There are many more but I haven't had time to review them.

Here in the USA non-theists make up 10% of the population. There is one organization that is trying to get people in Congress to make a statement on their actual belief or non-belief.

The highest elected official who is a non-theist is Representative Pete Stark (D) CA. Pete Stark has been a member of Congress since 1973.

For those who aren't interested in the skeptical discussion you might still be interested in Phil Plait's site at www.badastronomy.com. He dissects the science in movies and TV programs.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:07 PM

"The highest elected official who is a non-theist is Representative Pete Stark (D) CA." Naemanson

You would probably agree with adding that so far as is known the "highest elected official who is a non-theist..."

There are many, many people out there who would not volunteer their private beliefs. (Isn't it funny that 'belief' is used for both those who 'believe' and those who don't. Kind of like 'ravel' and 'unravel'.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:30 PM

Jeeze, Brett, I outgrew Randi about twenty years ago, when I spent a summer living in Ingo Swann's loft down on First Avenue, New Yawk. I looked over Randi's stuff and found it not pleasant but grimly determined, antagonistic, and materialistic.

I hold him in high esteem for debunking some things which should be debunked, I suppose. But he is one of these people who believes deeply in the atomistic explanation of life, which I find is almost as blindly limiting as the pre-Copernican model of the universe. It's not that he isn't intelligent, either.

Here's the loop where he gets out of whack, though. Material repetition is the mechanism of choice all through the scientific world for satisfying the standards of evidentiary proof.

The idea of replicability outside the framework of mechanistic repetition is anathema to him.   

As such, he has no window through which to examine any claims concerning spiritual knowledge whether those claims are loonybird or simply enlightened. He couldn't tell the difference, except in that small region where impingement on physical systems (spoon-bending and remote healing) come into play--and even there he seems unwilling to allow for any impingement by the measuring viewpoint on the ambience of the experiment in spite of quantum physics' assertions of its existence.

So as far as I am concerned the man is not qualified to make half the judgments he is more than willing to make.

Ah, well, neither am I, I suppose....


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 03:14 AM

Congratulate yourselves on your "open mindedness" if you want, but your rather Manichaean distaste for the "meat" that is your body is perhaps revealing- that you want a "pure" spirit that isn't contaminated by contact with the real world. You ought to ask yourselves, if this spirit can exist without the disgusting meat wrapper, why does it bother to keep acquiring one?

There once was a man who saw
the world as a cellar with bones on the floor,
Slime on the ceiling, grime on the door
And a stench of corruption like a running sore-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Naemanson
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:15 AM

Gee, Amos, that doesn't sound like the Randi I've been listening to. Then again, with the JREF he may have lightened up a bit.

Besides, what's wrong with findings that can be replicated inside a framework? If they can be done in the lab then they can be done anywhere. If the spiritual/psychic activity cannot be done under strict limitations then one would have to ask if it is real or imagined.

Note: You'll notice I don't use a lot of $5 words. It's not that I am avoiding them. It's just that I don't know any... *Grin*


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:25 AM

For some reason the Cat seems to have lost the rest of Leon Rosselson's song:

There once was a man who saw
The world as a cellar with bones on the floor,
Slime on the ceiling, grime on the door
And a stench of corruption like a running sore-

   He was a good man, he was a saint,
   He was a good man, he was a saint.

On that door, a sign that said,
He who enters here must die,
And on the other side it read-
You can buy anything here with a lie.

   He was a good man, he was a saint,
   He was a good man, he was a saint.

What an evil place, the young man cried,
Where are the flowers I used to see?
Where is a place that I can hide?
Where is the love that they promised me?

   He was a good man, he was a saint,
   He was a good man, he was a saint.

So the young man said, I will fight alone,
I will keep myself pure, I will never give in,
To touch anything would be to condone,
To touch anything would be a sin.

   He was a good man, he was a saint,
   He was a good man, he was a saint.

Uncontaminated, he
Shone like silver on a heap of dung,
He was a beacon of purity-
He was a saint- and he died very young.

   He was a good man, he was a saint,
   He was a good man, he was a saint.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM

A friend of mine was once terrified by her 4 year old daughter out of the blue, looking up at her and saying 'you weren't my mummy when I was here last.'

She took weeks to recover from that!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM

Paul:

PLease do not put words in my mouth, especially dumb ones. I have no distaste for living with bodies and enjoy using mine a lot. I don't think it should be addictive, to the point of losing awarenesss of other aspects of being. Your argument is something like accusing someone of being obsessively opposed to asutomobiles just because he also enjoys walking.

Brett:

Aw, not to be unfair I haven't dropped in on Randi's stuff for many years.

The problem is not replicability as such. It replicability by mechanical rules. Just for example, measuring processes with standard units of time is perfectly normal in phhysical experiments. Same conditions, same timing. Works for electrons, atoms, molecules and cannonballs.

In the world of thought, however, time is an arbitrary, possibly based on a falsehod, and in any case is a wild variable because considerations rule the phenomenology. In physics labs, the mechanisms rule the considerations. Duration and sequence is mandatory. Look how much trouble they have just trying to come to terms with the unpredictability of quanta, or even electrons in the classic slit experiments. In classic physics experiments thought (in the form of scientists) watches matter behave, and rules the conditions of the experiment. To try that with spiritual "stuff" will end up with your experiment laughing at you. No self-respecting scientist will stand to be laughed at by his experiment! :)

IMHO it is really meretricious and counterproductive, for example, to say that a spiritual phenomenon like prescience cannot be valid, because it cannot operate in a planned, mapped environment operating against something like red dots on cards in which no spirit in his right mind would have any interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM

WARNING! THE FOLLOWING IS ENTIRELY SPECULATIVE. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY OF WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ. IF YOU ARE OF THE ILK THAT REQUIRES EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, PLEASE GO ON TO THE NEXT POST. THERE'S NOTHING FOR YOU TO SEE HERE. MOVE ALONG, MOVE ALONG....


I do not believe in reincarnation. I believe in incarnation.

I've never been comfortable with the idea that a person is somehow the manifestation of some other person who lived previously. But my grounds for objection are not the same as those of the atomist. To me, the idea that a "life" or some essence thereof is passed directly from one human to another is too narrow of a viewpoint. It's insufficiently holistic.

My take on the subject can best be illustrated metaphorically:

Imagine that, deep within our psyches, each of us contains something akin to a harp with a huge number of strings, all tuned to different pitches. Each of those strings represents a life that has been lived in the past by someone or some creature. Ordinarily, we aren't aware of the existence of this huge number of strings because they just sit there and do nothing. But occasionally some force causes one of those strings to vibrate and we become aware of it. When that happens, the person experiencing the vibration is apt to interpret it as a "previous life". Well, he'd be correct in a way, but only to the extent that he's been made aware of one previous life out of the millions that are actually part of his psychic endowment. He's experiencing the vibration of one string, but he's still unaware of the harp.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM

Wodda byoodiful meddafor, Mister BeeDub.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

Paul, you keep making the error of seeing your own psychological problems, hostilities, blind spots, and unpleasant negativities reflected in other people...

And so does Leon Rosselson.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:04 PM

People love saying that there's "no evidence" for stuff they don't want to believe in in the first place. And they confirm it for themselves by completely avoiding all the available evidence or else refusing to allot any time to studying it or giving it serious and unbiased consideration... ;-) Thus is their chosen form of ignorance constantly re-affirmed to their own satisfaction. (Little Hawk)

This is your usual entrance sentence to these discussions which I have read at least ten times. Now was once too often. I think it is time to say how little you know about scientists and skeptics. I really pity you, Little Hawk, if that is your approach if you do not want to believe in the first place. You have been missing a humbling, embarrassing but altogether healthy experience in your life: to be forced to change your mind about something by evidence.

That's one of the main idea in science: to ask questions in a way that you can be shown to be wrong about something. I have in my life been completely wrong about something major at least three times and I have found out by looking at the evidence. Yes, all three times it was something that meant a lot to me personally (in one case it was even a theory linked to my name among German colleagues). But I was wrong though I would have loved to be right. In the one case, the evidence in a new experiment performed by one of my students was simply not as my (pet) theory on that field said it should be.

What you describe is a fine description of the approach of the believer, but not of the skeptic (there might be some, but I despise them). To find out to be completely wrong about something is one of the noblest experiences one can have (though not necessarily in the very moment one finds out, and surely also not in the moment one has to tell the colleagues at the next congress, forget my theory, I was wrong). But these are experiences I would not like to have missed in my life.

Sorry for you if it is so different for yourself and you do not approach evidence with an open mind. But please, do not assume that all people are like you.

Let me finish with a quote from a very prominent skeptic, Basava Premanand, chairman of the Indian skeptics, who is know for being able to recreate what Indian fakirs and gurus claim to be able due to supernatural forces:

At the end of the lengthy discussions we had with Premanand on the mysteries of the East, which no longer appeared as mysteries, there was one more thing that Basava Premanand told us. "You know, I told you I had one desire: to create a research center in India for the investigation of psychic phenomena. Well, to tell you the truth I also have one other wish."

"And what is it?" we asked.

"It's simple, I'd like to witness a real miracle before dying."

I think that could be a wish that many of us would subscribe to...
(from Notes on a strange world)

These are skeptics to my taste and not the caricature you try to shoot down but only end shooting yourself in the foot.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM

Bee-dubya-ell (see? I use your full name.:), thank you for a fresh look, another view. I don't think we know much at all- and that's the charm of it. Our view- Wolfgang, Bill D and all those other lovely folks notwithstanding - may be much closer than we like to the perspective of the goldfish in the bowl.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:53 PM

Durn, Amos...you have penetrated my darkest secrets!

I would claim to be the reincarnation of Martin Gardner, but he ain't dead yet.

(there sure are a lot of folks tossing around linguistic constructions and then presuming that this 'naming' conveys some sort of validity or reality to the concepts thus 'described'.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM

Well, I pity you too, Wolfgang, but I'm much too nice and polite a person to ever say so... ;-)

(That was a joke. In fact, I do not pity you. But do you get my point?)

You don't really know me at all. I probably don't really know you at all either. I certainly wouldn't assume that I do. If we were able to meet in real life and talk at some length over a period of time, with respect, then we might get to know each other.

I'm very interested in evidence whenever and wherever I can find it. But it's not my job to prove or disprove the existence of the soul, is it? Nor do I have a laboratory means of doing so. I have changed my mind about numerous things due to coming across evidence of one sort or another. I don't know if there is a soul or if there is reincarnation, I merely think it probable, that's all.

I have seen a couple of miracles in my life...certainly not when I expected to...but I can't reproduce them in a lab for you because I wasn't in control of them.

Will I describe them for you? No. Not a chance. What would be the point? It wouldn't accomplish anything good, pleasant or useful. I have no interest in exposing certain things that are very precious to me in my own life history to the utterly uncomprehending blank stare of various opinionated people who have no respect for or interest in such things, and who would only use my story as a target for attack.

Remember, Wolfgang, as Ali G always says..."Respec'" Respect is the key to good relations.

And I respect you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

I have no interest in exposing certain things that are very precious to me in my own life history to the utterly uncomprehending blank stare of various opinionated people who have no respect for or interest in such things, and who would only use my story as a target for attack.

My thoughts exactly. Well said, as always, LH. Thank you, Sir.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

You betcha, Kat. Thank you also (just for being who you are).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

I think I'm gonna be sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

But we're not in-flight yet!:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:35 PM

Oh, goody! Pass the mints.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:21 PM

What is this, pigs-fly week? I didn't know they served mints.

Wolfgang, I have nothing but respect for a person who can abandon a fond conviction in the face of evidence. It is a noble act, of great integrity, to be so true to what you see, that you are willing to let go of something important that you thought.

Little Hawk, however, does not deserve quite as much vehemence as you offer him, I would suggest, because he is discussing things that simply don't fall on the same table, or at least do so from a different spectrum. I would be interested to discover evidence so compelling of the absolute materiality of all things that it would somehow outweigh all the evidence I have encountered of things being otherwise.

But I promise you this. As you may have surmised I have a fond conviction that in addition to having a reasonably good body (for its age) which I can be one with at will, I also have a mode of existence which is completely whole, aware, intentional, perceptive, and independent of the body.

I do not believe that dying is a simple and final blackout where all consciousness terminates.

But when I die, if it turns out that that IS what I experience, I promise you I will willingly change my mind about my cherished, but fallacious, convictions,, and will accept the evidence I encounter.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:34 PM

Whichever way it (death) goes is fine with me. (as I've said repeatedly) Continued existence? Great. No continued existence? Great. Reincarnation? Fine. No reincarnation? Equally fine.

I don't object to people having different beliefs or expectations from my own, not any more than I would object to finding a large variety of plants growing in one area of land.

I likewise don't object to people belonging to a variety of different religions...or to no religion at all. I simply don't care. That's entirely up to them.

Nor do I object to science and the scientific approach. In fact, I have been a natural proponent of science and the scientific approach ever since I was about 7 years old. And I grew up in an atheist family too. We believed in nothing but science and law and social morality. In that respect...my strong interest in science I mean...I was fairly unusual among the youngsters I knew up till maybe age 12 or 13...but I found more people who thought that way by the time we reached our teens.

I have never found my interests in spirituality (which came later in life) to conflict in any way with my interests in science. They can be mutually complementary, and indeed they ought to be, but they are rather different forms of discipline for most people, and most people therefore mistakenly assume that they are diametrically opposed to one another. They're not...no more so than men and women, for instance, are diametrically opposed to one another.

And that's why I don't believe in the so-called "war between the sexes" either. ;-) I see natural partners there, not opponents.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:38 AM

I ain't gonna die, at least, I'm gonna live forever or die tryin'.

I love every one of the spiritual ideas that are pushed by the supernaturalists. I would love for them to be true. Unfortunately I have this ornery side of me that insists on knowing the reality of the situation.

Consider, people believe they see ghosts. I grew up in a haunted house surrounded by mysterious noises and movements. The stories are so much fun to repeat. However, when a person dies and comes back as a ghost, why do his clothes come with him? The clothes aren't capable of being ghostly.

Past lives? What a kick! I would love to know I had lived before and experienced an earlier age. Unfortunately 95% (this number is my guess, nothing more) of all humans who ever lived were simple peasants whose lives were short, brutish, and miserable. I already did that. It was called a career.

Distant reading? Being psychic. Sign me up! Gimme, gimme! Unfortunately all those tested so far have not been able to do any better than the rules of chance. I'm still waiting for the real one to show up.

And then you have the charlatans, the vultures who prey on the unsuspecting. A prime example is Sylvia Brown who reopens the wounds of victims in order to get paid to use her psychic powers to bring some resolution to their cases. So far her record is no wins, all losses, but she doesn't quit. Uri Gellar was trying to get paid to use his "talents" to find valuable mineral resources without even suffering the discomfort of flying over the land in question. He would look at a map or photograph and point out where to dig. Once more, no wins, all losses.

But don't give up hope. I won't. However, I will not believe everything I hear. I will wait for proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 03:07 AM

Unfortunately all those tested so far have not been able to do any better than the rules of chance.

Read Ingo Swann's report of the Puthoff series at Stanford (SRI).

why do his clothes come with him? The clothes aren't capable of being ghostly.


Because a being is putting out a scary picture or projection, in order to create some kind of effect or other, and he uses what he remembers, I suppose.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 04:11 AM

Naemanson: can you tell me where you posted the list? Was it on the JREF forum?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM

If a "ghost" is seen, it is an image built through consciousness. The consciousness will create the appropriate clothes along with the rest of the image, if it is so inclined to...which it usually would be.

No particular reason the ghost couldn't appear nude, in other words, but if the consciousness that creates the ghost is inclined to imagine itself clothed, then it will build its image in that fashion. It has nothing to do with a mechanistic progression of clothing into the afterlife through some sort of osmosis. ;-)

It's pure consciousness...just like the images seen in a dream. People in dreams are usually clothed too, but not always. The consciousness of the dreamer decides whether or not to clothe them.

And that's my theory. Don't like it? Well, bite your pillow! ;-)

We all would very much like to know the reality of the situation, Naemanson, and that's what keeps us all curious and investigating the unknown all our lives. We all hunger for the evidence. If evidence to prove or disprove a particular matter can't be found, we still remain very interested, right? That's natural, because we want to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM

It's true that most people who lived in the past were peasants, workers, and rather simple people. I don't think it's necessarily true that they lived "brutish lives", though.

And So? So what? The same basic challenges are found in simple lives...challenges such as maturing, dealing with personal relationships in family and community, falling in love, marrying, having and raising children, working, surviving, facing tests of character, developing courage, dealing with adversity, learning the ways of love and forgiveness, and so on.

There is much nobility in simple lives, and they are not all "brutish" by any means. I doubt that the average Indian or Chinese or Egyptian in ancient times was a "brute" or thought of himself as such. I bet you'd find they were just as smart as we are...but they were dealing with a different outer situation, that's all.

The vast number of past lives that people appear to recall in past life regression work are the lives of ordinary people....workers, soldiers, farmers, peasants, shopkeepers, sailors, whatever. It's only in some entertaining literature here and there that one finds the impression given that everyone who remembers a past life was somebody rich and famous in it such as Cleopatra or Napoleon's wife Josephine.

Well, entertaining literature is meant to sell copies, right? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM

How about the "memory" of being the child of a 'scullery maid', a child who at the age of 10 was raped and killed?

There are strange things out there, Horatio.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM

Well, you do get a large number of impressions of being Cleopatra, or Jesus Christ, or some king or other when people start approaching the subject; these sort out into actual memories pretty easily once people get into it and discover they were a chambermaid or a passing mendicant or a foot soldier. It's easy to grab an impressive identity and use ti as a comforter, but it doesn't hunt for very long.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM

Oh no, not again!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 12:32 PM

Jock:

I am afraid so. Try to get it right this time, will ya?



A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

That might be exactly what is going through every newborn baby's mind when it starts wailing and carrying on... ;-D

Man, I would not want to go through that particular stage again. No sir! I would rather skip right past the helpless period of babyhood...maybe incarnate right at the fresh age of 18, with a strong, young body and a full adult life ahead of me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 12:43 PM

If you did that, Little Hawk, the chances are good that you would be born into a time and culture where life expectancy is 30. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:13 PM

Well, you can do it, LH, but you will have a glare-fight on your hands, and you'll have to live with the guilt if you win the battle of displacement. Strong, young, fully-operational bodies don't just sit on the shelf for eighteen years to get that way, you know. :D


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: bankley
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM

A White Sport Coat and a Pink reinCarnation
I'm all dressed up for the Dance


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

Oh....you mean a "walk-in" kind of thing, Amos? Well, I wouldn't want to steal anyone else's body from them. It would be kind of interesting to experience being in certain bodies, though, (inhabiting them, I mean) for an hour or two to see what it was like. Like Angelina Jolie's, for example...   Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

"And that's my theory. Don't like it? Well, bite your pillow!"

Ucky-poo! I know where that pillow's been!

This is the kind of discussion that has been going on for many years if not generations. I doubt we are going to settle it here.

As for scientific studies, well, as we know, people see what they want to see, even scientists. That's why the scientific method relies on replicability. If it cannot be replicated then there are two possible explanations. Either the second effort is not following the original methods or the original experiment is flawed.

Paul Burke - I did not post the list. Amos generated it and I did not think I had that right. I sent the list to the JREF research group for their "take" on the researchers and the current state regarding the studies/experiments.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: bankley
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:34 PM

for L.H.... all in fun...

pan to: Brad Pitt after a couple of bottles of good wine, entering the bedroom with a bulge in his pants...

Brad: "Angie, darlin' come here and wrap those big lips around this"

Angie: " Oh no, Brad it's not really me!"

Brad: "C'mon, quit foolin' around"

Angie: "I'm telling you, I'm not really me...I'm not feeling myself!"

Brad: "Well baby, you were a minute ago.. getting started without me again ? Here, let me help sweetie,   J'taime, donne moi un bec..."

Fade to black.....


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:34 PM

From the American Journal of Psychiatry, in the review linked in the first post of this thread:

"StevensonŐs approach to the question of reincarnation was to evaluate the evidence for it and devise a protocol for the gathering of further evidence to delineate the phenomena of human behaviors, which suggested that some aspects of human personality might survive apparent death and manifest themselves in the living. Stevenson described his general approach (for which the book under review provides a specific example) as follows:

In the study of spontaneous paranormal phenomena we must usually interview and cross-question informants about events that have happened before we arrive on the scene. In principle, the methods are those that lawyers use in reconstructing a crime and historians use in understanding the past. Once we have the best account possible of the events in question, we consider one by one the alternative explanations and try to eliminate them until only the single most probable one remains. Then we try with further observations to confirm or reject the initially preferred explanation. In addition, we search through series of apparently similar phenomena for recurrent features that may provide clues to causative conditions and processes of occurrence. (1)
After careful review of available phenomena that had suggested the possibility of reincarnation, Stevenson, following the methodology of early psychic researchers (Gurney et al. in 1886 and Myers in 1903), devised a protocol for recovery and evaluation of memories of apparent previous lives, a process Stevenson described in 1977 (2). This paradigm for investigation focused on spontaneous cases suggestive of reincarnation that were described in young children. Why young children? Because young children should be less likely to be exposed to information about life details of a dead individual who is reincarnated.

A brief description of a typical case of the reincarnation type would show the following features: 1) Starting in years 2Đ4, the child spontaneously narrates details of a previous life. 2) Volume and clarity of statements from the child increase until ages 5Đ6, when the child talks less about them. 3) By age 8, remarks about previous life generally cease. 4) Unexpected behavior unusual for child but concordant with behavior of deceased person occur, e.g., phobias for guns or special interests and appetites. 5) In many cases the child has a birthmark or congenital deformity that corresponds in location and appearance to fatal wounds on the body of the previous personality. A high number of reincarnated personalities report violent death, which the child alludes to. 6) In some cultures the individual who "reincarnates" predicts his or her next incarnation and may appear in a dream to the expectant mother of the child to announce an intention to reincarnate in the baby. 7) After the age of 10 these child subjects usually develop normally...."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:47 PM

More on Stevenson:

"3000 Cases of Past Life Memories
A prestigious scholar at the University of Virginia, Dr. Stevenson devoted forty years of his life to the scientific documentation of past life memories of children. He amassed over 3000 cases in his files from all over the world. Many people, including scholars and fellow scientists, agree that these cases offer the best evidence yet for reincarnation.

Dr. Stevenson's cases focus on children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life. In each case, he methodically documents the child's statements and behaviors. Then he attempts to identify the deceased person the child remembers being, and verifies the facts of the deceased person's life that match the child's memory. He pays special attention to any birthmarks and birth defects the child may have that match wounds and scars on the deceased (verified by medical records). His strict methods applied so systematically to thousands of cases rule out, one by one, all possible "normal" explanations for the childŐs memories.

Impeccable Credentials
Dr. Stevenson's credentials are impeccable. He is a medical doctor and had many scholarly papers to his credit before he began paranormal research. He is the former head of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia and for many years before his retirement at the age of 82, he was Director of the Division of Personality Studies at the University of Virginia."    (For more see http://www.childpastlives.org/library_articles/stevenson.htm)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

Here's a lecture by Stevenson himself describing his intellectual development and how and why he came to be interested in the subject. Most interesting and articulate.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:54 PM

" "Were I asked" William James wrote "to point to a scientific journal where hard-headedness and never-sleeping suspicion of sources of error might be seen in their full bloom, I think I should have to fall back on the Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research. The common run of papers, say on physiological subjects, are apt to show a far lower level of critical consciousness."" (Ibid)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 08:01 PM

One highly memorable case history excerpted from one of Dr Stevenson's studies on children.

This is the kind of story that shows perfectly well a body of high-probability data which could not be subjected to rigorous laboratory replication; instead it is gathered the way sociologists collect their data, or anthropologists. It is fairly clear from the narrative that (assuming it is a truthful report) the correlations leave mere coincidence in the dust as an explanation.

That makes it no less persuasive, as a single story; the presence of a large number (I think over 3000) of similar stories in various variant patterns certainly adds to that persuasiveness.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM

Ha! ;-D Hey, Amos, I had that very same hypothetical Brad Pitt & Angelina Jolie scene pass through my mind, sort of...man, would it EVER be inconvenient to have Brad around at a time like that. Sheesh! Not that I'm objecting to Brad...I like some of the movie roles he's done. But he would just really be in the way as far as I was concerned if I got to try out being Angelina for a bit... (grin)

Naemanson, I'm all for scientific procedure, believe me. My comments that Wolfgang was objecting to so strenuously way, way back there were never aimed at scientists at all. They were aimed at common lay people, ordinary average Joe Blows that you meet in every town, who delight in mouthing off and disparaging anything spiritual or the least bit unusual to them, despite the fact that they are usually ignorant regarding both science and spirituality, and mysticism, and anything else along that line. Yet they seem utterly sure of the omnipotence of their dumbass opinions which aren't usually based on much more than the repetitious habits of a conventional dumbass lifetime. In other words, like Polly the Parrot they are repeating a bunch of things they've heard other people say and maintaining a firm grip on the past.

Wolfgang took it personally for some reason (or so I would assume), but I do not regard Wolfgang as the type of person I was talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 09:31 PM

I just gave you a ream of scientific procedure, LH. Too much to take in?



A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 11:07 PM

Sorry, Amos...I was in a big hurry and I probably skipped over those posts entirely. Maybe I'll catch up on them in a bit, okay? Kinda pressed for time tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 02:18 PM

Nervous Norvis had a novelty hit record titled "Transfusion." Because the lyrics hit that kind of funny-bone place that makes you say OUCH there's something true to life in there!, I had to give the words my undivided attention. I know the song is meant to sound really dumb and comical. But it's the sort of comedy that reminds one of the foibles of genuine human nature.

A light bulb went on over my head,
when I asked myself,
What if "Transfusion" were a crude metaphor for something really tricky to contemplate, say, a belief or a concept that people argue about but the concept persists through the centuries regardless?

Mudcat has a thread with the "Transfusion" lyrics on it; the words are not at the Digital Traditions thingie. But the thread is about "banned songs" and it's an oldie-but-goodie Mudcat thread.

Let's see if I can put this conceptual question across. About metaphors, reincarnation, and transfusion.

So, the dumb cluck who goes through auto after auto, and collision after collision, in "Transfusion." Each time, the auto is "totalled."
Each time, his sorry body is Jaws-Of-Lifed out of the wrecked auto. He gets ambulanced to the emergency room. His physical body is not destroyed but it is very much the worse for wear. He, and his person, the body with which he is conscious of life and the world around him, have to kept out of circulation long enough to recover.
And the recovery and treatment include evaluating how much blood he has lost, and putting someone's drawn blood in him, so that he can start over.

He gets his treatment and transfusion. Release from the hospital. Manages to get himself behind the wheel of a new and different auto. Eats and sleeps.
Then wakes up and repeats the whole sorry scenario.

This is not, reincarnation as a transformational, onward-and-upward, religious, inspired-by-the-divine experience.
This is reincarnation as a soul enrolled in Schoolhouse Earthly Life who keeps flunking this one particular test, and so he never makes the grade or earns the credit for which he studied. He gets so far, gets that same old test, and CRASH, he flunks again. So he is admitted back into the same old class level and goes through the whole thing again, and again.

Multiply this by I don't know what. You have a whole percentage of the human race who take that test, and take that test, and they just never learn the lesson well enough to change their performance. In fact they get themselves stuck in a rut. The sum of their learning experience is that they learn that when their earthly vehicle is wrecked, they will still regain consciousness in some place where they don't have a vehicle, and they will be looked after until such time as they recover and there is a different opportunity to have a fresh vehicle.

No wonder the lyrics are so dumb-funny that they smart.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 09:58 PM

Dr. Steven Stephenson who has been furiously engaged in replicating reincarnation effects has been arrested in Seattle Washington for a record number of serial killings. He claims all his victims are still alive but under different names.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 01:32 PM

Amos? You recall starting this?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: frogprince
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 03:30 PM

He was Amos when he started this, but he's someone else now.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 08:55 PM

You mean there's more than one Amos.

Does that make me feel foolish. Yes it does.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 10:36 AM

Keb my linear friend, do not feel foolish. There is but one Amos. In fact he stated his reasons for the thread. IN THIS CASE by way of links to a plethora of research references, I see him demonstrating that nonsense has deep roots in Pseudo academia.

Some of these links are still valuable to those writing a realistic Twilight Zone screen play.

Captain Obvious.

Remember that for one brief shining moment Mudcat BS , like the Trump White House , there was Camelot.

Not the Broadway Camelot but the Monty Python version in the 'Holy Grail'.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 11:27 AM

Keberoxu, my apology; all I intended was to play around with the theme of the thread, as in Amos having been reincarnated.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 11:42 AM

I will read this whole thread a bit later. But for right now, I scanned it and I did not see any mention of this song. (Sorry to be musical below the line. :-/ )
Here's the song from the modern Limeliters:


Regression Therapy

A while ago I felt so strange, I went to see a shrink.
He listened and he said your case is stranger than you think.
I feel a spirit from your past is trying to get through,
You'll need regression therapy to cure what's wrong with you!
And as he probed into my mind, I felt myself go back in time,
And friends I was amazed to find that what he said was true...

In 1474 I was born, Timothy Yancy,
A son of a peasant farmer, and the peasant farmer's fancy
I held a plow beneath each arm, and one more in between,
I caught the plague, and bought the farm in 1517.

In 1532 I was born, Frederick Blumer,
The son of a high-born gentleman, at least that was the rumor,
I lived a pure and Christian life, until my concubine
Came at me with a butcher knife in 1599.

In 1671 I was born, Abigail Neville,
The daughter of a Salem goodwife who was dealing with the Devil,
And at her trial the council frowned suspiciously at me,
But I proved innocent, and drowned, in 1693.

(cho.)
Singing: Hey, Ho, Oh Well, don't ask for whom tolls the bell,
Even if we go to hell, we're back tomorrow night.
I'm here, you're here, soon we're gone, but never fear,
We'll reappear upon this sphere, until we get it right.

In 1732, I was born, Reginald Baker,
I slipped through the doctor's fingers, and went straight back to my maker!
But I returned at five o'clock, an executioner's son.
And I was one chip off his block in 1761.

cho

In 18 hundred and 9 I was born, Abraham Lincoln.
Well, I guess you know the rest of that one...

cho

In nineteen recently, we were born of our mothers
And we've had a good time in this life, compared with all the others
Some day we'll all be back on cue, and if the fates allow,
We'll be each other's deja vu, 100 years from now.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 11:44 AM

Oh. duhhhh.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 01:08 PM

Saul

Your association with song is an amazing one.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 08:54 PM

I always ask, in discussions of this nature..... how many of 'us' are there? If some of us 'remember' past lives, why do the others not? Are the lucky ones using up all the available 'meat units'? And how does it work that people had past lives in 1663...or 1797... when there were far fewer around, but there are 7.5 Billion now, all of whom 'may' have lived before and *been* 5 or 7 or 14.... of the few millions 'before'?

Is the supply of.... ummm... 'souls', for want of a better word, limited or infinite? And is some sort of *karma* the determining factor for whether we stay on The Wheel of Samsara, or are some folks just not wired correctly? Do we count miscarriages & abortions? Or is that just too sad to muse about?

So many questions about so many anecdotes.... inquiring minds want to know...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: rich-joy
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 12:23 AM

The very interesting : "Memories of Heaven"
(Children's Astounding Recollections of the Time Before They Came to Earth)
by Wayne Dyer and Dee Garnes, published Oct 2015, can now be added to Amos's List in the 1st post!

Cheers,
R-J
Down Under

" Nineteenth-century British poet William Wordsworth expressed the idea that we gradually lose our intimate knowledge of heaven as we grow up, observing that "our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting" of our previous heavenly existence.

Dr. Wayne W. Dyer and co-author Dee Garnes had often talked about how the ones who know the most about God are those who have just recently been wrapped in the arms of the Divine, our infants and toddlers. In fact, Dee had an interaction with her own young son that convinced her of this. Curious about this phenomenon, Wayne and Dee decided to issue an invitation to parents all over the world to share their experiences. The overwhelming response they received prompted them to put together this book, which includes the most interesting and illuminating of these stories in which very young children speak about their remembrances before they were born.

It seems that infants and toddlers often arrive here with memories of their lifetimes in the spirit world and frequently provide evidence of this to their immediate families. They tell of dialogues with God, give evidence that they themselves had a hand in picking their own parents, speak about long-deceased family members they knew while in the dimension of Spirit, verify past-life recollections, and speak eloquently and accurately of a kind of Divine love that exists beyond this physical realm—and even of times when telepathic communication took place, as well as the ability to decide just when they would come here to Earth.

This fascinating book encourages parents and grandparents to take a much more active role in communicating with their new arrivals . . . and to realize that there is far more to this earthly experience than what we perceive with our five senses. "   

from the HAY HOUSE website.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 04:42 AM

I don't believe in reincarnation. I didn't believe in it last time, either.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 09:46 AM

I asked several questions in my post... I'd love to ask Wayne Dyer & Dee Garnes those questions.

"It seems that infants and toddlers often arrive here with memories of their lifetimes in the spirit world ..."

and

"They tell of dialogues with God, give evidence that they themselves had a hand in picking their own parents, .."

These assume that reincarnation is a fact... as if anecdotes of children somehow prove that. There are a number of other factors which might just as easily explain why people... children and adults.... have these experiences. We are very far from understanding how the brain/mind works and how it processes & interprets its own internal functions, but it IS very tempting to tell the most 'interesting' story, rather than some mundane thing about interpreting and/or embellishing dreams.


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