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BS: Torture!!!!

ard mhacha 24 Nov 09 - 01:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 09 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Falco 24 Nov 09 - 08:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 09 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Jun 09 - 03:04 PM
Amos 10 Jun 09 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 04 May 08 - 08:24 PM
Teribus 04 May 08 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Richmond 01 May 08 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Bjælkehuse 01 May 08 - 05:30 PM
TIA 01 May 08 - 11:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 08 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Egan 01 May 08 - 03:34 AM
Teribus 01 May 08 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Hawkwind 30 Apr 08 - 08:06 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 08 - 06:30 PM
freda underhill 30 Apr 08 - 05:43 PM
Don Firth 30 Apr 08 - 05:40 PM
irishenglish 30 Apr 08 - 05:38 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM
freda underhill 30 Apr 08 - 05:25 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 08 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Egan 30 Apr 08 - 05:12 PM
irishenglish 30 Apr 08 - 04:35 PM
Don Firth 30 Apr 08 - 04:35 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 08 - 04:25 PM
irishenglish 30 Apr 08 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Egan 30 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 08 - 03:19 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Observer 30 Apr 08 - 02:48 PM
dick greenhaus 30 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM
Don Firth 30 Apr 08 - 02:31 PM
TIA 30 Apr 08 - 02:25 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Windsor Knot 29 Apr 08 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 29 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM
Teribus 29 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Ye Teri Odin 29 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,TIA 28 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 28 Apr 08 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Ye Teri Odin 28 Apr 08 - 07:09 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 08 - 06:40 PM
Teribus 28 Apr 08 - 06:37 PM
TIA 28 Apr 08 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Egan 28 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM
irishenglish 28 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Egan 28 Apr 08 - 02:02 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:09 PM

Torture?, read all about it, nothing new here.http://www.irishresistancebooks.com/guineapigs/guineapigs.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:50 PM

Tony Blair was aware of the UK role in torture of British citizens in Pakistan.

And the Pope is a Catholic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 08:28 AM

Interesting story making the news today, Tony Blair was aware of the UK role in torture of British citizens in Pakistan.

Pakistani intelligence agents involved in torture say their British counterparts were 'grateful' they were 'using all means possible' to extract information from terror suspects.

Britain's role in the torture of its own citizens in Pakistan is condemned today by one of the world's leading human rights organisations as being cruel, counter-productive and in clear breach of international law.

Human Rights Watch says the UK government today finds itself in a "legally, morally and politically invidious position" because of its complicity in torture, and warns that its moral legitimacy could be undermined.

Pakistani intelligence agents involved in the torture who say their British counterparts knew how they were mistreating young British terrorism suspects. These agents said British officials were "breathing down their necks for information" while they were torturing one young medical student from London; and that British intelligence officers were "grateful" they were "using all means possible" to extract information from a man from Luton who was being beaten, whipped, deprived of sleep and threatened with an electric drill.

The report adds that British involvement in the unlawful activities of Pakistani intelligence agents has interfered with attempts to prosecute terrorism suspects in the British courts. It quotes a British intelligence source as saying one of the alleged masterminds of the 2006 airline plot, Rashid Rauf, was badly tortured in Pakistan, and that this had been a "disaster" that made any "successful prosecution in Britain most unlikely". Tony Blair, when prime minister, was aware of the existence of this policy.


The HRW report says that as long as the government asserts its duty to act upon intelligence extracted under torture if to do so may save lives, that it must "proactively and strenuously intervene" to prevent mistreatment by friendly intelligence agencies. "In countries like Pakistan where there is a high likelihood of torture taking place, the UK should take special steps to prevent torture and to avoid being placed in the legally, morally and politically invidious position the UK government now finds itself."


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:27 PM

No disagreement there then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM

Agreed, as long as we apply it to everyone, not just the people YOU don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

Let's hope that this gets thoroughly investigated, and anyone who's done stuff like that gets tried, convicted and severely punished. And that especially goes for anybody higher up in the system who may have encouraged, colluded in, or tried to cover up such activities.

Which is the only way to deal with this kind of betrayal on the part of those entrusted with power and authority, in any country, and no matter how high in the system.

Agreed, bruce?


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:04 PM

From The TimesJune 10, 2009

London's Metropolitan Police accused of waterboarding suspects
Sean O'Neill, Crime Editor
June 10, 2009

.....

Metropolitan Police officers subjected suspects to waterboarding, according to allegations at the centre of a major anti-corruption inquiry, The Times has learnt.

The torture claims are part of a wide-ranging investigation which also includes accusations that officers fabricated evidence and stole suspects' property. It has already led to the abandonment of a drug trial and the suspension of several police officers.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6466430.ece


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:03 AM

A new history on the DOJ's analysis of torture under GW Bush provides interesting insight into those who wanted torture and those who said it wasn't legal. Worth a read.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 04 May 08 - 08:24 PM

I think we're seeing that our "opponents" in this "war" don't mind going down with the ship. Numerous bombs have gone off killing the builders and yet they continue. Their comrades rode the planes into the world trade center, the Pentagon, and who knows what the other target(s) was or were. They are young, old, male, female carrying these bombs strapped to their bodies and blowing themselves up. They aren't afraid of torture and dying. They know it makes them Martyrs to the cause and guarantees them a place in heaven with 72 virgins.

Without stone cold in your face evidence that they are indeed terrorists and might actually know something (see previous about compartmentalization) the odds are that the even the "judiscious use" of torture and improper treatment would increase recruiting for Al Quaida and possibly increase the use of suicide bombing.

The chance that even this limited use would deliver any useful information has got to be incredibly low when most people on earth will tell you anything, factual or not, just to get you to stop!


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:38 PM

Good God anothercrop of mushrooms

Guest Hawkwind

Guest Egan - Why would I have wished to avoid this thread Egan or whatever-it-is-you-wish-to-call-yourself-next-time.

GUEST,Bjælkehuse

Guest Richmond.

Oh yes woodwind asked me about supporting torture, and I answered. Now what about supporting the use of treatment that the European Court of Human Rights considered was 'inhuman and degrading' on someone caught planting explosives or prepping a car bomb. Now what was that list again, would I object if someone, who was fully prepare to plant an explosive device with the premeditated intent of taking innocent life, was subjected to any of the items described on that list? Of course I wouldn't, I would not lose one wink of sleep over it? The would be bomber would be accorded all the consideration that he or she would show his/her victims.

Stand by for the next burst of "one-off" Guest names and postings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Richmond
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:04 PM

Your dead right Bjælkehuse but no one here is scared of Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Bjælkehuse
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Just like in the schoolyard - you may be big and strong, and do as you feel, but that doesn't make it right.


Bjælkehuse
- Denmark
(small and scared)


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: TIA
Date: 01 May 08 - 11:43 AM

Teribus should change his name to Cool Hand Luke.

" Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me - with nothin'. He keeps comin' with nothin' "

Last person standing owns the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:45 AM

No, I am sure he enjoyed every challenge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Egan
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:34 AM

I imagine this has to be one thread Teribus wished he had given a wide berth !


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:14 AM

Of course you can, the answer is that I do not support the use of torture by the British intelligence services or the military in the United Kingdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Hawkwind
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:06 PM

Hi Teribus.

Can I ask you please, Do you support the use of torture by the British intelligence services or the military in the United Kingdom ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:30 PM

Well here's what some folks round here were saying about this subject in 2004:

Subject: RE: BS: The US Military'sTorture Training Manual
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 04:38 AM

The following methods were used by Britain during 1971 and 1976 on both occasions they were found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights,

1 Hair pulling

2Punching to back of head. Heavy slaps across the face and head.

3 Simultaneous slapping of ears with both hand sometimes perforating eardrums.

4 Strangling neck, chops to the throat, gripping and pulling of Adam`s apple. Pushing fingers into pressure points of neck.

5 Punches and kicks to stomach, buttocks, kidneys, spine, stiff finger prodding to ribs.

6 Manual squeezing of testicles, punching and kicking testicles, lifting naked prisoner by placing stick between his legs.

7 Arm twisting, Bending wrist backwards both above and below arm. Finger twisting.

8 Positions of stress - search position against wall, sitting on non-existent chairs, squatting on hunkers.

9 Press-ups to point of exhaustion, super press-ups, legs on chair, hands on ground. Running on spot to point of exhaustion.

10 Wrestling holds until prisoner vomits.

11 Strangling neck and forcing neck down to the point of asphyxiation.

12 Trailing alon floor; prone on floor while personnel stand and jump on back riding prisoner like a horse.

13 Made to lie centre back across a table or chair face backwards. Interrogators then jump on legs causing intense pain to back.

14 Placing plastic bag, hood, jacket, or underpants, over head to restrict flow of air.

15 Throwing prisoner from one interrogator to another.

16 Simulated execution by clicking gun behind the head, simulated electrouction by putting plug into mouth and putting on switch.

17 Singing skin with matches and cigarettes.

18 Degradations - making prisoner lick water or vomit of floor; behave like a dog; spitting in face; stripping prisoner naked and making obscene remarks about his body, his wife, his children.

19 Pouring liquid into ears.

20 Threats to shoot prisoner in lonely place, hand prisoner over to UVF, threats to parents and children.


Subject: RE: BS: The US Military'sTorture Training Manual
From: Wolfgang - PM
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:01 PM

Since the Jan 18th 1978 decision of the European Court of Human Rights has been mentioned in this thread about torture let me add that the court has ruled that the treatment was 'inhuman and degrading' but not 'torture'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The US Military'sTorture Training Manual
From: Wolfgang - PM
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 10:42 AM

The torture and kidnapped child case has actually happened in Germany quite recently.

A young boy had been kidnapped and his banker father had paid 1,000,000 ransom. The boy didn't come back. The police arrested a suspect, well, let's say they had not the slightest doubt they had the right man: This man had already admitted the kidnapping and collecting the ransom money at that time but refused to tell where the boy could be found.

Then the deputy leader of Frankfurt police decided to threaten the suspect with torture by one of his policemen. The threat was very believable and the suspect gave in and led the police to the place where the boy was found. It then became clear why he had not told before: The boy had been dead since very short after the kidnapping.

Several things are unusual about this case: In the trial, the judge told the defendant explicitely that all his confessions in police custody might perhaps not be useable due to the threat of torture. The defendant insisted on repeating the confessions in court. The deputy police leader could make his case easier for himself by saying it was only a threat and he would not have done it. But he insists in several interview that it was not an empty threat and that he would have ordered to actually start the torture. He says he would do it again in similar circumstances.

I think he'll has to be punished (and will be; no trial yet) but I would act like he has acted. Some things have to be forbidden by law but I can picture me doing them in extreme circumstances.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The US Military'sTorture Training Manual
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 10:54 AM

"the whole concept of information gathering through gossip collecting, innuendo, accusation, leading to torture - these are all medieval methods fuelled by bias and necessity.

but they are not accurate."

But under certain circumstances in the light of absolutely nothing else, while not being necessarily accurate - it is a damn sight better than nothing.

Oh and your first part about "intelligence" being "such a useless word, describing information gained through any ways but through verifiable evidence." What about independent corroboration Freda? In interrogating a large number of people who are kept apart the likelyhood of them holding to a lie while under pressure is a great deal less likely than than coming out with something that is true. Because when someone is disorientated, tired and apprehensive to tell a lie is something you have to think about and have the mental discipline to tell that same lie the same way time after time. The truth on the other hand just comes out.

Situations vary as do time scales for getting results an ordinary soldier captured will probably have to remain quiet for about six hours before any information he had becomes useless - dark, quiet, no means of marking the passage of time, let his own fear and apprehension get the better of him. Wheel him out after a couple of hours into a prepared environment make him think and believe that it is later than it is, sit him down give him something to drink and talk quietly to him - you will get information that you can use.

Another instance - an attack swimmer pulled out of a naval anchorage - now the information he has got you need to get rather faster, otherwise a ship and it's crew could be lost. This individual is going to be handled that much rougher, if placed with the choice of bruising someones feelings or suffering the loss of a ship and her ships company - them feelings is going to get rather severely bruised.

Subject: RE: BS: The US Military'sTorture Training Manual
From: Amos - PM
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 11:11 AM

Intell in a hot operations scenario such as the ambush incident described above is a different situation with different rules than academic or scientific information. When you are fighting for your own life and the lives of your friends, all bets are off, and you can make a lot of differnece with very little information if you know how to use it correctly.

This is not meant as a rationalization for torture. I am simply saying that extreme conditions bring out extreme measures and solutions.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:43 PM

Maher's Story in Brief

Maher Arar is a 34-year-old wireless technology consultant. He was born in Syria and came to Canada with his family at the age of 17. He became a Canadian citizen in 1991. On Sept. 26, 2002, while in transit in New York's JFK airport when returning home from a vacation, Arar was detained by US officials and interrogated about alleged links to al-Qaeda. Twelve days later, he was chained, shackled and flown to Syria, where he was held in a tiny "grave-like" cell for ten months and ten days before he was moved to a better cell in a different prison. In Syria, he was beaten, tortured and forced to make a false confession.

During his imprisonment, Arar's wife, Monia Mazigh, campaigned relentlessly on his behalf until he was returned to Canada in October 2003. On Jan. 28, 2004, under pressure from Canadian human rights organizations and a growing number of citizens, the Government of Canada announced a Commission of Inquiry into the Actions of Canadian Officials in Relation to Maher Arar.

On September 18, 2006, the Commissioner of the Inquiry, Justice Dennis O'Connor, cleared Arar of all terrorism allegations, stating he was "able to say categorically that there is no evidence to indicate that Mr. Arar has committed any offence or that his activities constitute a threat to the security of Canada."

http://www.maherarar.ca/


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:40 PM

Have you looked up Maher Arar yet, Teribus? Or would you just rather not go there?

Ron Suskind of the New York Times, in a 2004 article, said:
In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
And on the seventh day, they rested?

I believe this explains a lot about George W. Bush and his administration. And I believe it may very well explain a lot about Teribus as well.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:38 PM

Fair enough Teribus. My comment was only based on what I perceived as sarcasm on your part. I still disagree with you vehemently, but apologize.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

Bit touchy irishenglish?? I congratulated you on finding something, that I had looked for and had failed to find, I say again well done.

Now what exactly have I twisted? You stated that you'd found one example in actual fact you'd found five. - Source the article you yourself referred to. Same article also mentioned that there were 311 Soviet soldiers missing in Afghanistan.

As for the rest of your post - Feeling a bit precious are we??


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:25 PM

People who torture or who promote torture believe they are above the law. They do not consider that they have an obligation to provide evidence or get a jury to make a decision on a conviction prior to their acts of torture. They are arrogant enough to believe that THEY KNOW that someone is evil and therefore needs to be tortured outside any legal process. But there is a difference between those who agree on the sidelines, and the perpetrators who actually do it.

what sort of a person can do such things and justify it? A sadist- Sadistic personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of cruel, demeaning, and aggressive behavior, beginning by early adulthood, as indicated by the repeated occurrence of at least four of the following:

    * Has used physical cruelty or violence for the purpose of establishing dominance in a relationship (not merely to achieve some noninterpersonal goal, such as striking someone in order to rob him/her).
    * Humiliates or demeans people in the presence of others.
    * Has treated or disciplined someone under his/her control unusually harshly.
    * Is amused by, or takes pleasure in, the psychological or physical suffering of others (including animals).
    * Has lied for the purpose of harming or inflicting pain on others (not merely to achieve some other goal).
    * Gets other people to do what he/she wants by frightening them (through intimidation or even terror).
    * Restricts the autonomy of people with whom he or she has a close relationship, e.g., will not let spouse leave the house unaccompanied or permit teenage daughter to attend social functions.
    * Is fascinated by violence, weapons, injury, or torture.

Those who give licence to such people to perpetrate acts of torture would be outraged if someone kicked their cat. But then the cat has value to them, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:24 PM

Answers to what Guest Egan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Egan
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:12 PM

Answers please Teribus, these guys are right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:35 PM

You asked for one case, I found one, so you decide to twist it again and make it 5 out of 311, as an attempt to show how wonderful you are, how clever. Well, all praise the wiseass himself, Teribus. Tell you what, next time you ask a question and someone answers it, keep your snide fucking comments to yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:35 PM

Nonsense, Teribus! You're even more irrational than usual today. TIA has stated an ethical stand, and it's a perfectly valid one which you seem incapable of grasping. "If you want to do the crime, you should be willing to do the time."

And then, there is:
"Of course, this assumes that you know he's a terrorist.....before you torture him."
Dick has a valid point. I cite the case of Maher Arar. If you don't know who he is or what was done to him, look him up and educate yourself.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:25 PM

Very well done irishenglish, 5 out of 311 missing accounted for.

That GUEST,Egan - 30 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM is only surpassed in idiocy by your post to the HMAS Sydney thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:03 PM

Just wanted one last answer to a question Teribus asked me. He said

" Now please irishenglish, please regale us all of POW escapes by the Russians in Afghanistan. Hells teeth, they maintained an Army of over 175,000 men there for the best part of a decade. There must have been some of them taken prisoner? How were they treated irishenglish? All this pre-dates Bush so their treatment could not have been predicated by what US forces have ever done.

Tell you what irishenglish you will not be able to come up with one single story. Do you know why? Because the other side simply did not take prisoners - rather scary isn't it."

Well, sorry to tell you Teribus, I found your one, from The New York Times, June 14, 1988 comes this article:http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE2DF143CF937A25755C0A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

You see, this guy was not a deserter, nor was he a convert to Islam, which did happen in many cases, sometimes under coercion. He does though, I believe count as ONE SINGLE STORY, which is what you asked for. By the way, as this article points out, for the Soviet invaders of Afghanistan, their fear of capture was as much based on their reception at home upon return, as it was about actually being captured. And before you chime in, I know this predates Bush, but you asked a question, here's your answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Egan
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM

Teribus, you are demented. I was actually quite optimistic that you were going to wake up as time went by to the absurdity of your posting. The only rationale for this otherwise ridiculous argument that you alone support is that the enemy of your enemy is your friend, no matter what. If you really do think that anyone in disagreement with British policy is the biggest baddest thing in the world and that curbing its power is the only thing that matters (think Hitler Churchill Stalin), then this alliance makes a kind of primitive sense. Although even if you do think that, encouraging the development of rampant capitalism everywhere would make a lot more sense. But, if you think that lefty-ism is anything at all to do with positive support for civilisation, decency, freedom, female (in particular) emancipation, life being nice even if you do not agree with the use of torture then you should surely turn your back on the military forces you were once part of.

Meanwhile, I cannot help noticing and rejoicing that some members have cornered you here with great replies (which always go unanswered) they seem to have such a genius for pissing you off. From what I have been reading, they have achieved this. Compared to the numberous momentous own goals you seem to be scoring.

Unless of course millions of us around the world read of this outrage and exclaim with one voice: "That it's wrong to torture someone. How dare they silence the hereditary paragons of the British forces and their use of torture you so clandestinely defend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:19 PM

"Of course, this assumes that you know he's a terrorist.....before you torture him." - dick greenhaus

"If someone who has set a bomb with the intent of taking innocent lives is subjected to "Harsh Interrogation" and if information extracted during that interrogation saves as much as a single life then I can understand that that interrogation was justified," - Teribus

What I wrote assumes nothing dick, it states perfectly clearly that the person subject to that form of interrogation set the bomb. What did you think I was talking about when I mentioned "under certain circumstances" - the weather conditions? the colour of jacket he was wearing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

"Well, put, TIA." - Don Firth

Well let's see what was so well put shall we? It read more like delusional rant to me.

Part 1:
"Even in the infamous and oft-cited ticking bomb scenario, I want torture to be illegal."

Very good, excellent - You're Dead.


Part 2:
"Who knows, maybe someday, one of my kids will be in a situation where I decide that I must torture someone. But there should be no exception for me or anyone else. This brave person can then suffer the consequences knowing that he or she did the right thing. And, whether the torturer was right or wrong, we deter torture."

And once again you plus God knows how many others perish, but that's OK because you deterred torture.

I take it that we are talking about the following here as "torture":
- Waterboarding
- Taking somebody's watch away from them and putting them in a blacked-out room.
- Leaving them in that room in perfect silence
- Depriving them of sleep or rest
- Have then stand, sit or kneel in uncomfortable positions
- Playing them loud music
- Have dogs bark at them

As opposed to having fingers or various other parts of their anatomies lopped off for little or no reason at all, merely as a continuation of punishment as a prelude to execution. Something that neither US or UK forces have ever practiced or been accused of, unlike their adversaries both past and current.

Part 3:
"If we start to cook up places and times where torture is okay, I bet I can come up with a scenario where rape is okay. I'll bet I can come up with one where cannabilism is okay. I bet I can come up with one were child molestation is okay. I bet I can make up a scenario where the only responsible choice is to pluck out my grandmothers eye and feed it to a pig. Do we really want any of these to be legal?"

I do not think that anybody has ever said that torture is okay, I can see circumstances where it could be justified. I would challenge anybody to come up with any set of circumstances where rape would be okay, or any circumstances where it could be considered justified.

There have been historical recorded instances where cannibalism was considered justified, it has never been considered okay in western eyes, but considered perfectly normal behaviour in other societies around the world.

As to, "I bet I can come up with one were child molestation is okay." I am all ears, because I can think of none.

"Well put" indeed!! Your arguement is hysterical emotive twaddle as usual TIA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:48 PM

Like Jean Charles de Menezes ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM

"If someone who has set a bomb with the intent of taking innocent lives is subjected to "Harsh Interrogation" and if information extracted during that interrogation saves as much as a single life then I can understand that that interrogation was justified, or maybe there are those here who would rather promote the importance of the rights of the terrorist over the rights of his victims, I most certainly do not. I stand by what I originally said."

Of course, this assumes that you know he's a terrorist.....before you torture him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:31 PM

Well, put, TIA.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: TIA
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:25 PM

Even in the infamous and oft-cited ticking bomb scenario, I want torture to be illegal. If someone feels that they are really doing the right thing by torturing another human, I want the onus to be on that person (the torturer) to make a conscious decision to engage in civil disobedience on a matter of principal. Who knows, maybe someday, one of my kids will be in a situation where I decide that I must torture someone. But there should be no exception for me or anyone else. This brave person can then suffer the consequences knowing that he or she did the right thing. And, whether the torturer was right or wrong, we deter torture.

If we start to cook up places and times where torture is okay, I bet I can come up with a scenario where rape is okay. I'll bet I can come up with one where cannabilism is okay. I bet I can come up with one were child molestation is okay. I bet I can make up a scenario where the only responsible choice is to pluck out my grandmothers eye and feed it to a pig. Do we really want any of these to be legal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

I believe that I have answered all questions put to me Guest Windor Knot, or whatever he/she wishes to call him/herself.

But he/she comes out with some very strange things:

Example 1:
GUEST,Windsor Knot - PM
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:56 PM

"Go through his old threads freestater like the rest of us do and you will find it there."

OK Guest Wind or not – For someone who purports to have no interest or knowledge about past happenings in Ireland – Where does the epithet "freestater" come from?

And what a strange hobby - "Go through his old threads". Of course you would know what I had said in "old threads" if you had previously posted as Guest "Whatever-you-want-to-call-yourself", or were a member who had ditched their "cookie". Which leads me to the next example.

Example 2:
GUEST,Windsor Knot - PM
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

"I can only assume this ridiculous rant is to deflect from the questions other members have put to you, including myself."

That sentence is rather strange and revealing for someone who has categorically stated that they have never posted under any other name, particularly this bit:
"questions other members have put to you, including myself."

Because you are not a member, are you Guest Windor Knot? Tell us whats your Mudcat Member name?

Now this thread is about torture. Mrs Jean McConville was without any shadow of a doubt beaten, tortured and then executed, all matters of recorded fact – witness statements, hospital reports and autopsy report at the Coroners Inquest. The purpose of the torture was to extract a false confession, to do that they had to cut off her fingers and mutilate her. Now folks, that is torture.

So is this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6275152.stm

What Khaled Shaik Mohammed suffered for all of two and a half minutes pales to total isignificance in comparison. If someone who has set a bomb with the intent of taking innocent lives is subjected to "Harsh Interrogation" and if information extracted during that interrogation saves as much as a single life then I can understand that that interrogation was justified, or maybe there are those here who would rather promote the importance of the rights of the terrorist over the rights of his victims, I most certainly do not. I stand by what I originally said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:56 PM

Teribus, I have NOT been posting under any another name. I apologised to you earlier in this thread for something I read about you in another thread. I also asked you a question which you never replied to.

If you want a slanging session, I will be glad to accommodate you. This would probably suit you as you could avoid the questions members have put to you.

Get over yourself man and get your facts straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM

The secondary point wasn't directed at you Teribus.
Although I happen to disagree with your position (although I do understand your position) I think you have the right to post your opinion and defend it just like anyone else without having other 'catters saying things like "He's just a cook!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

Hi Chief,

When in this thread have I dismissed - "...anyone's opinion based upon what they did for a living."?

The only person that has been dismissed on those grounds in this thread has been me, by Guest Windor Knot talking his usual ill-informed tripe - True?

That was done by either:

Guest Windor Knot - 1 post to his/her credit
Guest Windsor Knot - who first burst into print on 29-02-08 talking a complete and utter load of bollocks wrt Prince Harry, but who gave us the benefit of of his ignorance for all of 62 posts.
Guest Egan - 2 posts from about the time Guest Windsor packed it in

And now we have - Guest Ye Teri Odin - 2 posts

All wrapped up they are all probably the same person

Guest Impressed's posting history is quite different, with very few posts (6) ranging back to 2005. So Guest Impressed is probably some member who periodically ditches his/her "cookie" to send posts that he/she would be too ashamed to send under their normal title.

Same could also apply to the other source detailed above. They're like mayflies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Ye Teri Odin
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM

Doesn't look like Teribus wants to answer questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM

"See any difference in those two Guest TIA???"
Not really.


Do you see any differences in my list of words above?

I will give you a hint. Half are synonyms for acceptable. Half are synonyms for justifiable. Now since you are so keen on the detailed difference between the two, go sort them out. If you truly have a consistent point, you must agree with half, and disagree with the other half. I am not putting words in your mouth, I am trying to understand the jumble that actually does come from your mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:19 PM

I'm afraid that a quote from your very own post pretty much sums up what we've been saying:

"The terrified mother of ten, still in pain from the previous night's beating, was tortured, her fingers were cut off to extract the "confession" that she was an informer and once that had been obtained..."

Someone being tortured is likely to agree to anything or make anything up to satisfy their torturers, whether they know actual information or not.

And on another point, I take issue with anyone dismissing anyone's opinion based upon what they did for a living. Talk about Elitist bull! I worked as a frame and matt maker at an art shop. Does that make my words worth less? What about my working at Jiffy Lube? What someone has done in the past is not the sum and total of who that person is or what that person can accomplish.

Not that I want to invite comparison, but I believe Hitler was a sad sack private in WWI...look what happened when he was ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Ye Teri Odin
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:09 PM

Teribus I have read through the comments above and there are more questions lying out to you than it would appear you have answered !

Since you refuse to state your total abhorrence against the use of torture I can only surmise that you feel the use of torture is justified against certain groups who stand against what you believe is right and just. On the other hand, as an ex member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, you have never condemned Britain's use of torture on suspects.

To clear up any confusion here, please state you condemn the use of torture against any human being by any country including Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:40 PM

Sorta like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:37 PM

I see that you are still attempting to put words into my mouth TIA, or Guest TIA, or GUEST "Whoever".

I believe that my stance on "Torture" has been stated quite clearly on this thread and repeated by me a number of times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: TIA
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:15 PM

Oh, I am quite interested in detail.
Therefore, I would like to know which of the following phrases Teribus feels apply to torture:

Torture is...
Excusable
Hunky-dory
Venial
Unobjectionable
Satisfactory
Acceptable
Forgivable
Justifiable
Unexceptionable
Defensible

By the reasoning of his 28 Apr 08 - 01:14 AM post, some of these statements are true, while others are outrageous.



I happen to believe that they are all outrageous. Makes my position way easier to defend without a lot of arm waving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Egan
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

Excellent post Irishenglish,

Teribus any chance of a reply of full condemnation of the use of torture ?

Please no more going into a "cut and paste" tangent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

You know what, I'm done with this thread. Teribus, we're not going to change each others minds, you're still going to believe on the one hand that you're not very fond of torture, and on the other that it is justifiable in circumstances, while I am going to adhere to the fact that it should never be used. I believe I also made some remarks that should have been debated more, but were left by the wayside (and not just by yourself Teribus, but such is the nature of threads, especially when they get longer). As a closing I will just say that torture is an awful, evil concept. Human rights groups like Amnesty and Human Rights Watch fight every day for the rights of those that are tortured. They do so in a broad based manner generally, keeping an eye on all of those nations that engage in the activity. And I remember in the 80's hearing first hand accounts from victims of torture from all over, and I remember reading the reports that chronicled the nature of the torture in those countries. At that time, it included countries in Latin America, and Africa, in China and the Soviet Union, as well as those from Europe, and incidents in Northern Ireland, such as Teribus pointed out, and isolated incidents from the US as well. What I realized at the time was that the greater number of incidents were not from my country, the US, but from countries of which I knew very little about-Congo, Chile, Nicaragua. And even learning the nature of the reason people were wrongfully imprisoned or tortured in a nation like Burma, for example, I still couldn't fully grasp how anything could be so bad, any words could be so dangerous, any union meeting so inciendiary, that you had to kidnap someone off the street, and place them in a deep dark prison somewhere, cut off from their families, and proceed to torture them. But now, years later, I understand how the words that "someone" deems dangerous, and inciteful brings a government to seek to arrest, imprison, and torture.I know, because my country is doing it. Now I know, that is going to stir up something, because there are those on here who will argue that organizing a trade union in Guatemala is a far cry from setting off a bomb, and it is a fair distinction, to be sure. But if my government, the US, can rightfully capture, sentence, and imprison TRUE perpetrators or planners of terrorist acts, why resort to torture? Why haul people off to a deep dark prison, cut off from their families, and in come cases torture them? An question I didn't have 20 years ago, is still out there waiting to be answered, but instead of it being somewhere else, it is now my own country doing it, along with the others. That is why I will never, ever support torture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Egan
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:02 PM

Teribus seems to hop on and over the fence quite often on this thread. He says he does not support the use of torture, then finds reasons for the use of it. As ex service personal he doesn't seem to want to let the side down. How nice it would be to see a post from him uttering condemning the use of any kind of torture be it slapping, pushing, deprivation of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding.

During discussions about these enhanced interrogation techniques he makes reference to several countries and individuals, yet there is always an absence of the phrase "I totally condemn this".

Sorry Teribus, fence hopping has to stop sometime.


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