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Björk said free Tibet and the china ....

Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 15 Mar 08 - 11:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM
folk1e 14 Mar 08 - 10:01 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Mar 08 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Neil D 14 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 02:44 PM
Wesley S 14 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM
irishenglish 14 Mar 08 - 02:24 PM
skarpi 14 Mar 08 - 02:13 PM
Peace 14 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 02:07 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 14 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 14 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM
PoppaGator 14 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM
Peace 14 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM
irishenglish 14 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM
Wesley S 14 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 14 Mar 08 - 01:03 PM
redsnapper 14 Mar 08 - 12:59 PM
skarpi 14 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM
Wesley S 14 Mar 08 - 12:31 PM
skarpi 14 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM
folk1e 14 Mar 08 - 12:01 PM
Wesley S 14 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM
Peace 14 Mar 08 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Joe 14 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 11:51 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM
irishenglish 14 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 14 Mar 08 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Joe 14 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM
21st Century Bluesman 14 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Joe 14 Mar 08 - 11:34 AM
Banjiman 14 Mar 08 - 11:33 AM
21st Century Bluesman 14 Mar 08 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 11:27 AM
Wesley S 14 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 14 Mar 08 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Joe 14 Mar 08 - 10:37 AM
Wesley S 14 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM
matt milton 14 Mar 08 - 10:24 AM
Peace 14 Mar 08 - 10:14 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Mar 08 - 10:09 AM
irishenglish 14 Mar 08 - 10:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM

being controversial for it's own sake is simply a pose, a photo op as it were, and serves no useful purpose at all.

Why then the confrontational way of addressing me by my surname rather than by my forename? I believe I did address you coureously even if I did disagree with your standpoint.

Sorry, Charlotte, but you seem to be contradicting your own arguments here. You are quite happy to mix it and cause controversy but then complain when people in the limelight such as Bjork or Bono do the same. Is it a case of 'do as I say, not as I do'?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 11:38 AM

"so much holier than everyone else."

nope...has nothing to do with it...it simply my choice...if the audience wants politics, there's the news

holier than thou...I leave that to the experts, of which there are more than a few around Mudcat.

being controversial for it's own sake is simply a pose, a photo op as it were, and serves no useful purpose at all.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM

I play my music, Polshaw, and I don't include politics in my repetoire

So you stick entirely to music topics? Never make political or confrontational statements on, erm let me see, Mudcat, for instance? Never sing songs with anything contraversial in them?

Must be a wonderful life being so much holier than everyone else.

:D


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: folk1e
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:01 PM

with good reason ..... China looks like becoming one of the most powerful nations on the planet!
Now if you want to have some effect look at the car you buy or the sterio / video you want next and make an informed choice.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 06:43 PM

And now the chinese are balcking our BBC news broadcast realys and internet transmissions.

But the SHrub will not go to TIbet, because there is no oil.

And because he is chickenshit scared of China.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

Why don't people say celebrities should stay out of politics when someone like Charlton Heston says some really stupid shit like America has so much gun violence because of its "ethnic diversity".
I don't know of anything Brad and Angelina have done that should offend anyone. I think sometimes we get so sick of the pop media's obsession with them that we lump them in with Britney, Lindsay et al.
Its not their fault the media has its head so far up their asses.
    I don't know anything about the Bjork in China thing other than what I read on this thread, but maybe she went to China expressly so she could sing an "unapproved" song about independence and reference Tibet.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM

From chaos there are some interesting viewpoints arising.

I'm glad to read about Pitt and N.O.--he has done some good work in the past, but was swept up in a global pregnancy saga that almost defied definition.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:46 PM

"I think all of us know what we're talking about with that."

I'm sure....

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:44 PM

BBC News



Charlotte (keeping an eye


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM

The CNN Story. Riots in Tibet.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:24 PM

Hmm... seems like there's not much to know about China and Tibet than, "Free Tibet." I think all of us know what we're talking about with that.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:13 PM

Well , look at CNN right now ??

tipet is on fire ""

ATB Skarpi


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

Good post, Sandy.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:07 PM

"I'm amazed that any of us would criticize her"

"If you make a public comment, you also assume the risk of responsibility for it." and you leave yourself open to criticism.

There are no sacred cows, you utter something in public, you take responsibility for that utterance and for gods sake know what you're talking about. Life is alot more that bumper sticker and t-shirt politics and soundbites.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM

Why we all must object. Some just have a higher platform.

"They came for the Communists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Communist;
They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Socialist;
They came for the labor leaders, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a labor leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Jew;
Then they came for me - And there was no one left to object."
- Martin Niemoller, German Protestant Pastor, 1892-1984


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM

I have no problem with the "Bully Pulpit," as described by former President Teddy Roosevelt. I also have no problem with anyone speaking their mind. I mostly follow Voltaire's approach on that one. But people in this media-driven age who have become internationally known through their acting, singing, athletic prowess or, in the case of the Paris Hiltons of the world, merely being famous for its own sake, are often taken far too seriously merely because of their notoriety.

I can't read Bjork's intentions. It sounded like a spontaneous jibe at the Chinese for their known repression of human rights. If you make a public comment, you also assume the risk of responsibility for it. This goes for all the abysmally stupid public utterances of famous folk as well as for the enlightened ones.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM

Of course Bjork had every right to utter one word, twice, as a human rights protest. I'm amazed that any of us would criticize her (and only a little less amazed at how many of us hadn't heard of her!)

I'd like to say a word or two in defense of Brad Pitt, who has put not only lots of money, but also considerable time and personal effort, into rebuilding some of the most seriously devastated neighborhoods in New Orleans. His efforts have not only put roofs over the heads of many displaced families, but have also underwritten significant large-scale construction of radically "green" state-of-the-art domestic architecture.

Whatever he and his wife are up to with their other interests and projects, and however much self-aggrandizement might have to do with any of this, his efforts have resulted in great objective improvements to the lives of many needy individuals and also to our community as a whole and, by extension, to the world at large, which will certainly benefit from the jump-start he's given to several forward-looking technologies.

Brad and Angelina like being in New Orleans whenever their schedules allow because people here treat them like humans and generally leave them alone. We seem able to maintain a no-papparazzi zone.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

It's nice to know I am not the only one fed up with China. Thank y'all.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

I wonder how many people on here would have the guts, while in China to say anything controversial at all. Of course she is a star, but more power to Bjork for her comment.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM

And if the woman in the swan dress gets people talking about it then it's fine with me. More power to her.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:03 PM

The feet of the Chinese government must be kept to the fire by any means available until real change is won. Be it the illegal annexing of Tibet, the massacre at Tiananmen Square, religious persecution, or present day sweatshops, China has re-buffed all diplomatic attempts from other nations and the UN to seek improvement.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: redsnapper
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:59 PM

My comments were directed at the fact that the mass media - including my morning paper here in Texas - covered the story too.

Quite so Wesley! It shows that a musician which a moral view on a grave injustice can make a useful and well-publicised stand... a long tradition that seems to fortunately still be alive amongst some. As Sandy McLean said politicians rarely say anything when it involves the Chinese.

RS


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM

:>) That I dont know of , yes I think so .


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:31 PM

Skarpi - Yes I have no doubt that you would have started this thread. My comments were directed at the fact that the mass media - including my morning paper here in Texas - covered the story too.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM

Wesley , if she would have said this here in Iceland yes
I would have started this thread . and yes I would say
the host about the offence

ATB Skarpi


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

"burned their Dixie Chicks CDs"

alot of people did indeed do that, and not those that supported the statements made by the Dixie Chicks...there were many American radio stations who removed the Chicks from their play lists as well...all this, however, had little effect on the sales of their then current CD.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: folk1e
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:01 PM

"I play my music, Polshaw, and I don't include politics in my repetoire, and I'm hardly the only musician who avoids mixing music and politics."
If you play folk music it is hard to imagine you NOT being political!
All of the Spirituals, most of Blues or even (spits on ground) Country has a political ellement.
There are some folk songs that the authorities would have removed your lips for at one time!

Power to the people!


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM

What good does it do to criticise China while sitting in Iceland? Who's going to cover the story? No one. We're talking about this aren't we? Would this thread have been started if Bjork had made her comments in Iceland? NO. If you oppose the corruption in the first place you speak out whenever and where ever you can. Even if it makes people uncomfortable. Does that make any sense to you?

To use your analogy - you go to a party at someones house and they start to tell jokes using words like "fag" and "nigger". Do you keep quiet about it? Or do you tell the host they are being offensive?


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:57 AM

Why hold Bjork to any sort of different standard? Our countries deal with them, so we indeed give tacit support to their policies. Maybe she's gonna give some of the cash she made to the Tibetans. Maybe she's gonna buy a bunch of clothing to give to needy kids. Maybe she's gonna keep it all. Who knows? As Sandy said above, it's time to stop kissing China's arse. She took one small step in that direction. Her motives? I have no idea.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

I was making an inference from your comment. You cannot choose for that statement to switch between a highly subjective comment to one that you claim is purely objective.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:51 AM

"Nothing wrong with expressing your politics if you're a singer, but there can be consequences. I wonder how many of the folks who support Bjork's comments burned their Dixie Chicks CDs when the Chicks slammed George Bush while they were in Europe?"

Well folks...and the answer is....?


"Oh yeah, this has all to do with her comments and nothing to do with the anniversary of the Tibetan uprising .... your flawed logic is ... well .... flawed."

not me making that arguement, all I said was...coincidence. and I'm very aware of the approaching anniversary..

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM

Little side excursions aren't helping this discussion. It's a mess.

I see the politics of Gere and Jolie to be bundled in with a Hollywood package that is so opulent that it gives off a lot of other vibrations beyond the political message they are intending. If you live really really large in your own country, you have to expect some skeptics when you start speaking out for the underclass in other nations. I wouldn't say Gere lives large, I don't know much about him, actually. I take a reading that he comes across as more "authentic" in his views than Jolie and Pitt. For them, it feels like having babies and adopting babies is their current hobby. Perhaps not fair, but something that comes across in all of the chatter generated about them and by their own publicity folks.

Nothing wrong with expressing your politics if you're a singer, but there can be consequences. I wonder how many of the folks who support Bjork's comments burned their Dixie Chicks CDs when the Chicks slammed George Bush while they were in Europe?

I suppose the difference is that Bjork was a visitor to China, criticising China. and the Dixie Chicks were abroad and speaking of their own country, their own state even. They aired their own dirty laundry and were slammed in their own country. Bjork aired someone else's dirty laundry in that country and was criticised. Do these bear comparison?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM

I will doubt because you can't prove that assertion. She wasn't supposed to perform that song anyway, as previously mentioned. As to the money, yes of course she was paid to perform in China. If she has any type of conscience, I'm sure she wrestled with the question of should she perform there or not, just like all the other western artists who have played there. I think its a little unfair to say simply that Bjork and others performed in China merely for the money. Charlotte, yes you are not the only performer not to mix politics with music. SOme do and it comes across weak because they don't truly understand the politics of what they are talking about. Some do it successfully because they do understand. Some make their "political" point of view by merely performing at an event, or in a place like China. Maybe she wanted to perform that song and say Tibet no matter what the Chinese authorities told her. I don't know, because I'm not in her head.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:44 AM

Only people with a high profile can ever get the chance to make any statement before a mass audience in China. This pretty well limits it to politicians, entertainers, and athletes. Politicians lack the guts so that leaves entertainers and athletes. God bless Bjork for making a stand against China's treatment of it's people. The Olympics will provide a stage where athletes will hopefully defy both their own and the Chinese governments to make many similar statements. Live worldwide TV coverage should provide a venue that defeats censorship. If the Chinese attempt to censor the broadcasts it will only prove to world how these bastards operate. We should all stand for a better world but these days the international business conglomerates are kissing China's arse. We should not stand for that!


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM

Oh yeah, this has all to do with her comments and nothing to do with the anniversary of the Tibetan uprising .... your flawed logic is ... well .... flawed.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: 21st Century Bluesman
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM

And your point? Ah! I get it. No one should ever rise up against oppressive regimes. Nice one.


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:37 AM

Chaos in Lhasa as protests spread

Coincidence anyone....?

Charlotte (the view from ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:34 AM

"I notice you focus right in on that remark and ignore the rest...interesting.."

Yes I agree, I think she is referring more to a style or theme of decoration within a house as opposed to just the choice of pieces of furniture.

anyway....

By Bjork singing in China in exchange for money, does Tibet become any worse off??


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:33 AM

erm....what's wrong with politics in music, why is avoiding them a good thing to do? To my mind a lot of the best traditional and contemporary Folk songs have a political theme.

Fair play to Bjork I say and bugger the decor!

Paul


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: 21st Century Bluesman
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:28 AM

"It's kind of like being invited to someone's house and then criticising the decor or the people who invited you in the first place."

Yeah, right. I'm with all those England footballers who gave the Nazi salute before a match in Germany in 1938. No one must upset the apple cart... What a ridiculous argument...


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:27 AM

"Do you think compairing furniture and human rights is valid?"

I notice you focus right in on that remark and ignore the rest...interesting..
I also stated "or the people who invited you in the first place."

answer this question that was posed in another post

"If Bjork supports the cause of the people of Tibet why did she go to China and accept liberal payment for her singing?"

Charlotte (the view from ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM

Do you think compairing furniture and human rights is valid?


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM

"I highly doubt that Charlotte. What would be the grounds if they made no so called "inflammatory" speech themselves. You think just because Bjork possibly said two words at a concert that every Chinese dissident has been rounded up?"

Doubt all you want.

If Bjork supports the cause of the people of Tibet why did she go to China and accept liberal payment for her singing?

exactly.


It's kind of like being invited to someone's house and then criticising the decor or the people who invited you in the first place.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:05 AM

Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Dave Polshaw
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 04:08 AM

stick to performing, it's what most of you do best.

And what exactly is it that YOU do best, Charlotte? Do you always stick to that? Do the words kettle and pot mean anything to you?

I play my music, Polshaw, and I don't include politics in my repetoire, and I'm hardly the only musician who avoids mixing music and politics.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:37 AM

Free the Swan!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM

When did Pete Seegar go abroad? Dozens of times - too many to count. And I doubt that he changed his viewpoint because of the country he was in. You can depend on that.

And if you STILL don't know who Bjork is - she was the woman who wore a dress that looked like a swan to the 2001 Oscars.

See picture - swan dress


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: matt milton
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:24 AM

A Richard Gere "acolyte"? So anyone remotely well known who expresses an opinion about something to do with international politics is doing so because they are fervent admirers of Richard Gere? Yeah, I'm totally convinced that that is surely the case.

"In world politics they would be up there with Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Mostly light, little heat"

Well Bjork's not a politican so it's rather pointless to point out her stature in terms of world politics. You may as well say "In terms of pop music George W Bush would be up there with David Cameron and Angela Merkel". Nobody's suggesting that two words spoken by Bjork at a concert are going to effect anything massively significant regarding China and Tibet. Are you saying that nobody other than politicians should ever say anything about politics in public? If so, do these politicans have to be elected? If not, when and where exactly are non-politicians allowed to comment on politics? For example, am I permitted to use the words "Free tibet" in a conversation in my local pub?
What is your point?


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:14 AM

'During a gig in Shanghai last week the Icelandic singer shouted "Tibet" at the crowd at the end of what the Xinhua news agency said was an "unapproved song", Declare Independence.'



I wonder if she'd have caused a problem had she shouted "dog food".


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:09 AM

Well, my friend in Greenwich Village suggested that she cut a rather wide swath, a bit of a pampered star routine, when she and her protection cruised through the tiny little Julius bar. The farther from home you are, perhaps your behavior is less self-regulated.

so Bjork is not exactly my genre but I do try to keep my eyes, ears and mind open.

Ah, I see. So someone who doesn't know who this woman is doesn't have an open mind like you do because they haven't bothered to investigate someone they didn't know about in an overload world of noise, some of which is music.

Shall we each list the performers who we have discovered and who are well known in certain circles, and then dismiss everyone else's lists?

For now I'll consider her a Richard Gere acolyte. In world politics they would be up there with Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Mostly light, little heat.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Björk said free Tibet and the china ....
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:00 AM

....the Chinese government, if even it thinks there might be trouble, round up the "usual suspects" so to speak, individual names is not a requirement.

I highly doubt that Charlotte. What would be the grounds if they made no so called "inflammatory" speech themselves. You think just because Bjork possibly said two words at a concert that every Chinese dissident has been rounded up?


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Mudcat time: 23 February 3:14 AM EST

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