mudcat.org: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]


BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God

Amos 05 Mar 08 - 09:43 PM
John Hardly 05 Mar 08 - 06:17 PM
Peace 05 Mar 08 - 06:07 PM
John Hardly 05 Mar 08 - 06:05 PM
John Hardly 05 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM
Little Hawk 05 Mar 08 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 05 Mar 08 - 03:12 PM
Megan L 05 Mar 08 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 05 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM
Bee 05 Mar 08 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 05 Mar 08 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 05 Mar 08 - 02:42 PM
Wesley S 05 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 05 Mar 08 - 02:33 PM
Peace 05 Mar 08 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 05 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM
Peace 05 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM
Bee 05 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM
John Hardly 05 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM
John Hardly 05 Mar 08 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Appaloosa Lady 05 Mar 08 - 01:28 PM
Mrrzy 05 Mar 08 - 01:26 PM
john f weldon 05 Mar 08 - 01:26 PM
Little Hawk 05 Mar 08 - 01:22 PM
Peace 05 Mar 08 - 01:20 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 05 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM
maeve 05 Mar 08 - 12:12 PM
Little Hawk 05 Mar 08 - 12:09 PM
John Hardly 05 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM
Little Hawk 05 Mar 08 - 11:44 AM
Peace 05 Mar 08 - 11:32 AM
Bee 05 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM
Bryn Pugh 05 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM
Joe Offer 05 Mar 08 - 03:39 AM
Little Hawk 05 Mar 08 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 05 Mar 08 - 01:57 AM
Slag 05 Mar 08 - 01:35 AM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 04 Mar 08 - 10:33 PM
John Hardly 04 Mar 08 - 08:12 PM
Jeri 04 Mar 08 - 08:01 PM
Little Hawk 04 Mar 08 - 07:34 PM
bobad 04 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM
Peace 04 Mar 08 - 07:23 PM
john f weldon 04 Mar 08 - 07:19 PM
John Hardly 04 Mar 08 - 07:12 PM
Peace 04 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM
Slag 04 Mar 08 - 06:58 PM
Amos 04 Mar 08 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Appaloosa Lady 04 Mar 08 - 05:52 PM
Joe Offer 04 Mar 08 - 05:03 PM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 09:43 PM

ÒThe president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.Ó

Sam Harris


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:17 PM

I use the clapper. That way it's just as easy to "show on" too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:07 PM

Show off.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:05 PM

LH

You're welcome, but I can't take credit for it.   As it came to me, it wasn't very good, and I've re-written lots of it, but I had it emailed to me some time ago.   But it's a fairly useful list. I've actually since seen better, more comprehensive lists like it. Probably most of us remember having been presented with such a list in Jr High or High School.

Anyway, I find that not only is that list useful, but it's also useful to realize that many of those "fallacies" don't actually "disprove" something. Most of them just call into question the reason one might believe something -- or the faulty way one might be, rather than seeking truth, merely trying to win an arguement (by "cheating").


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

LH

You're welcome, but I can't take credit for it.   As it came to me, it wasn't very good, and I've re-written lots of it, but I had it emailed to me some time ago.   But it's a fairly useful list. I've actually since seen better, more comprehensive lists like it. Probably most of us remember having been presented with such a list in Jr High or High School.

Anyway, I find that not only is that list useful, but it's also useful to realize that many of those "fallacies" don't actually disprove" something. Most of them just call into question the reason one might believe something -- or the faulty way one might be, rather than seeking truth, merely trying to win an arguement (by "cheating").


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:47 PM

Bravo, John Hardly, for that lengthy post on all the various illegitimate forms of argumentation that people use to attack someone else's position on something.

I have saved it for future reference. It is THE answer to most of the unreasonable arguments I see advanced daily on this forum by people intent on proving that their form of belief is superior to someone else's.

Bee - You said,"I have an affinity for mammals, wild and domestic. I've never been close to a mammal that I didn't sense was 'other', individual, in the same manner in which another human is 'other'. I don't mean that a cow or bear or cat thinks as humans think, or is emotional on the same gradient humans are, but they do think, and do exhibit emotions, and my thought is always 'there but for a chance of evolution go I'. So if human consciousness is a manifestation of something larger, I have to think that so is the more basic, less convoluted, consciousness of all those other critters."

Yes! Of course. Your conclusion seems eminently sensible to me, and that's the way I see it. An animal's consciousness IS, like a human consciousness, a manifestation of something larger. The same something. Just to a different degree, that's all.

Then you said, "This is a serious component of my reasons for being agnostic. When it comes to First Causes, I don't know, can't even guess, if Something with a larger consciousness directed that. But when it comes to my fellow warm-bloods, I definitely cannot conceive of a well meaning First Cause/Deity which deliberately would elevate my species over another to the tune of giving us that little extra invisible something referred to usually as a soul."

Neither can I conceive of it. I think everything has a soul. Every human, every animal, every plant, every microbe, everything. Either that...or nothing does.

Again, the various souls would most likely be at different levels of consciousness, that's all. Each one existing at its own unique level, just as each thing has its own unique nature in every other respect as well.

This does not imply some kind of favoritism "from on High". ;-) It simply implies the expression of a vast variety of possibilities or potentials, all of which tend to manifest in their own fashion in some particular time or place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 03:12 PM

Yes Megan...The Bible holds many truths...

And as we develop an "attitude of gratitude" for the things/blessings we already have, we find that we have more to be grateful for...

bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Megan L
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 03:04 PM

Duh why did ye think the bible says:

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

WOO WOO to You...

Sid Caesar did an interview one time where he stated that he was depressed. "I had everything, a hit show, lots of money, I could have anything...but I still wasn't happy."
Then he went on about someone he met who brought him out of his depression.."I figured out that when I put my thoughts over here(points to the left, indicating concentration on being unhappy), All I had to do was look over here(looks to right) concentrating on happiness. And that was it. Ridiculously simple."

bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:46 PM

Peace for the win.

I watched the video, which I assume is lifted from the movie "What the Bleep do We Know". I know nothing from Quantum Physics. When I want to try to understand something, like how to read music, I go looking for people who know (as per example) how to read music, to explain it to me.

So, being curious about the premises of that movie (so presumably this video), I went looking for people who are physicists, and who do understand quantum physics/mechanics. It looked to me that the majority of them were not happy at all with the erroneous (according to their expertise) presentations, explanations, and conclusions drawn by the movie makers.

Which is not to deny that the deeper we explore the fabric of the universe we know, the weirder things get from our limited perspective (which becomes less limited everytime someone like those same physicists amkes a discovery). And none of which speculations, IMO, imply or do not imply the notion of a conscious (or unconscious) First Cause.

But I will not, cannot, succumb to woo, be it the woo of established religion or the woo of quantum mechanics or the woo of animism. I shouldda been from Missouri.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:44 PM

Ed: Tough Love Bro...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:42 PM

He might be looking for his bucket...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM

"Guest Ed" left a long time ago. Suggesting he might be a troll.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:33 PM

And if i was a rappa..."I and da Fatha AM one..." It is what it is. and what it is shall be." Get down and get back up again...Step back...Kiss myself.... Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Take it to the bridge...FONK ME! DA Da DA da dit. FEEL DA RHYTHM....Let the band take off...And now, ladies and gentlemen, the Godfather of Soul...Mr. James Brown....

"This is a man's world. But it wouldn't be nuthin', without a woman or a girl..."

James KNEW who he was....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:17 PM

"I and the Father are One"

If that's true, shouldn't it read "I and the Father is One"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM

Quantum Physics & Conciousness...

For the intellectual, it is "arguments" & "proofs". For the Catholic. It is Faith & Jesus. For the Wiccan it is "Magick". For the Atheist. It is reliance upon self. And as we stroll through Religions, beliefs, faiths and arguments, it merely enforces Truth; that we are all part of some form of ONE, for which as many names have been created, as there are minds to create...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqJOIQWkfWA
How strong and powerful is your faith or belief? That will indicate to you your experiences...And willingness to explore other concepts...

Life is hard? Well, of COURSE life is hard if that is the perception you entertain. You need only to change your "frequency", and entertain the thought of a world of possibilities, no matter what your situation may be. Then, possibilities become your reality...

"What would you do with your life if you KNEW you could not fail?...."

YOU are "God" (I and the Father are One...")

bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM

Would someone be kind enough to message me if Guest,Ed ever answers my question? If so, thank you. If not, I tried. And thank you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

"It makes more sense to me to believe that human consciousness is, in some way, a manifestation of something larger." - Bee-dubya-ell

I am able to understand thinking and feeling this way, moreso than I understand conventional God beliefs.

But I don't really see human consciousness as inexplicable biologically. The whole is greater than its parts, therefore, consciousness, I think.

I have an affinity for mammals, wild and domestic. I've never been close to a mammal that I didn't sense was 'other', individual, in the same manner in which another human is 'other'. I don't mean that a cow or bear or cat thinks as humans think, or is emotional on the same gradient humans are, but they do think, and do exhibit emotions, and my thought is always 'there but for a chance of evolution go I'. So if human consciousness is a manifestation of something larger, I have to think that so is the more basic, less convoluted, consciousness of all those other critters.

This is a serious component of my reasons for being agnostic. When it comes to First Causes, I don't know, can't even guess, if Something with a larger consciousness directed that. But when it comes to my fellow warm-bloods, I definitely cannot conceive of a well meaning First Cause/Deity which deliberately would elevate my species over another to the tune of giving us that little extra invisible something referred to usually as a soul.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM

"...unicorns, leprechauns, supreme beings"

This falls under #5 "Argument from Personal Incredulity", #7 "Confusing the currently unexplained with the unexplainable", and #8 "False Continuum". At LEAST those three.

1.        Ad hominem An ad hominem argument is any that attempts to counter another's claims or conclusions by attacking the person, rather than addressing the argument itself. True believers will often commit this fallacy by countering the arguments of skeptics by stating that skeptics are closed minded. Skeptics, on the other hand, may fall into the trap of dismissing the claims of UFO believers, for example, by stating that people who believe in UFO's are crazy or stupid.

2. Ad ignorantum The argument from ignorance basically states that a specific belief is true because we don't know that it isn't true. Defenders of extrasensory perception, for example, will often overemphasize how much we do not know about the human brain. UFO proponents will often argue that an object sighted in the sky is unknown, and therefore it is an alien spacecraft.

3. Argument from authority Stating that a claim is true because a person or group of perceived authority says it is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. It is reasonable to give more credence to the claims of those with the proper background, education, and credentials, or to be suspicious of the claims of someone making authoritative statements in an area for which they cannot demonstrate expertise. But the truth of a claim should ultimately rest on logic and evidence, not the authority of the person promoting it. Another way this is seen from time to time is when the authority cited is cited for his/her brilliance, but not as it relates to the subject at hand; For instance: the Albert Einstein bumper sticker – "You Cannot Simultaneously Prevent And Prepare For War". It should be obvious, but doesn't always occur to one, that there is nothing about Einstein's particular genius that makes him more qualified (than the average Joe) to talk about geopolitics

4. Argument from final Consequences Such arguments (also called teleological) are based on a reversal of cause and effect, because they argue that something is caused by the ultimate effect that it has, or purpose that is serves. For example: God must exist, because otherwise life would have no meaning.

5. Argument from Personal Incredulity I cannot explain or understand this, therefore it cannot be true. Creationists are fond of arguing that they cannot imagine the complexity of life resulting from blind evolution, but that does not mean life did not evolve.

6. Confusing association with causation This is similar to the post-hoc fallacy in that it assumes cause and effect for two variables simply because they are correlated, although the relationship here is not strictly that of one variable following the other in time. This fallacy is often used to give a statistical correlation a causal interpretation. For example, during the 1990s both religious attendance and illegal drug use have been on the rise. It would be a fallacy to conclude that therefore, religious attendance causes illegal drug use. It is also possible that drug use leads to an increase in religious attendance, or that both drug use and religious attendance are increased by a third variable, such as an increase in societal unrest. It is also possible that both variables are independent of one another, and it is mere coincidence that they are both increasing at the same time. A corollary to this is the invocation of this logical fallacy to argue that an association does not represent causation; rather it is more accurate to say that correlation does not necessarily mean causation, but it can. Also, multiple independent correlations can point reliably to causation, and is a reasonable line of argument.

7. Confusing currently unexplained with unexplainable Because we do not currently have an adequate explanation for a phenomenon does not mean that it is forever unexplainable or that it therefore defies the laws of nature or requires a paranormal explanation.

8. False Continuum The idea that because there is no definitive demarcation line between two extremes, that the distinction between the extremes is not real or meaningful: It would be like saying that since there seems to be a fuzzy line between cults and religion, therefore the two are really the same thing.

9. False Dichotomy Arbitrarily reducing a set of many possibilities to only two. This is constantly seen in politics where only two "black and white" propositions are presented as the only possible solutions when there could, in reality, be any number of better solutions from an expanded pool of answers.

10. Inconsistency Applying criteria or rules to one belief, claim, argument, or position but not to others. For example, some consumer advocates argue that we need stronger regulation of prescription drugs to ensure their safety and effectiveness, but at the same time argue that medicinal herbs should be sold with no regulation for either safety or effectiveness. Of course, the corollary fallacy is the "But he/she did it first!", wherein an inconsistency in arbitration leads to the claim that the basis for one's "correctness" is that it exceeds, or at least matches a previous (but obviously wrong) action by another (see Tu quoque, below).

11. The Moving Goalpost A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for "proof" or acceptance of said "proof" out of range of whatever evidence currently exists.

12. Non-Sequitur In Latin this term translates to "doesn't follow". This refers to an argument in which the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises. In other words, a logical connection is implied where none exists.

13. Post-hoc ergo propter hoc This fallacy follows the basic format of: A preceded B, therefore A caused B, and therefore assumes cause and effect for two events just because they are temporally related (the latin translates to "after this, therefore because of this").   If a fellow dies after eating green beans, it doesn't follow that the green beans were the cause of death.

14. Reductio ad absurdum These arguments assume that if an argument is valid, it necessarily means that the most extreme example of that argument must also be valid. A UFO enthusiast once argued that if I am skeptical about the existence of alien visitors, I must also be skeptical of the existence of the Great Wall of China, since I have not personally seen either. He therefore tried to take my skepticism to an absurd extreme in order to invalidate any skepticism.

15. Slippery Slope This logical fallacy is the argument that a position is not consistent or tenable because accepting the position means that the extreme of the position must also be accepted. But moderate positions do not necessarily lead down the slippery slope to the extreme.

16. Straw Man Arguing against a position which you create specifically to be easy to argue against, rather than the position actually held by those who oppose your point of view.

17. Special pleading, or ad-hoc reasoning This is a subtle fallacy which is often difficult to recognize. In essence, it is the arbitrary introduction of new elements into an argument in order to fix them so that they appear valid. A good example of this is the ad-hoc dismissal of negative test results. For example, one might point out that ESP has never been demonstrated under adequate test conditions, therefore ESP is not a genuine phenomenon. Defenders of ESP have attempted to counter this argument by introducing the arbitrary premise that ESP does not work in the presence of skeptics. This fallacy is often taken to ridiculous extremes, and more and more bizarre ad hoc elements are added to explain experimental failures or logical inconsistencies.

18. Tautology A tautology is an argument that utilizes circular reasoning, which means that the conclusion is also its own premise. The structure of such arguments is A=B therefore A=B, although the premise and conclusion might be formulated differently so it is not immediately apparent as such. For example, saying that therapeutic touch works because it manipulates the life force is a tautology because the definition of therapeutic touch is the alleged manipulation (without touching) of the life force.

19. Tu quoque Literally, you too. This is an attempt to justify wrong action because someone else also does it. "My evidence may be invalid, but so is yours."

20. Unstated Major Premise This fallacy occurs when one makes an argument which assumes a premise which is not explicitly stated. For example, arguing that we should label food products with their cholesterol content because Americans have high cholesterol assumes that: 1) cholesterol in food causes high serum cholesterol; 2) labeling will reduce consumption of cholesterol; and 3) that having a high serum cholesterol is unhealthy. This fallacy is also sometimes called begging the question.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:31 PM

wonderful post BWL. Must have come to you while throwing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:28 PM

"In the midst of winter, I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus

That's the point of realisation, for me at least.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:26 PM

I guess I still don't get it. I cannot CHOOSE to believe in things I don't believe in - unicorns, leprechauns, supreme beings, it's all fairy tales to me. If one WANTED to believe, how does one take the leap?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: john f weldon
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:26 PM

Wow, I just finished my latest musical-video; and when I came back to check out this thread, I find you're on to consciousness, which is, in fact, the topic of the video.

Coincidence? Or Divine Intervention???

Heisenstadter

Anyway, a good excuse to post this link!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:22 PM

Yeah, that's about the same process I went through, Bee-Dub.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:20 PM

I agree with you on that very much, BWL. Well said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM

I used to be a hardcore atheist. The scientific explanations offered through cosmology and evolutionary biology make much more sense to me than the folkloric creation myths which pass as "truth" for billions of people.

But there's a point at which scientific explanations no longer work. For me, that point comes when one ponders the nature of human consciousness. Attempting to understand what it truly means to be a conscious human being by using science alone just doesn't work. It makes more sense to me to believe that human consciousness is, in some way, a manifestation of something larger. Some people choose to call it "God", I choose not to. I don't try to define it, I don't worship it or pray to it, and I don't think of it as a moral compass beyond a general feeling that if each of us is a part of it, we should treat each other as such.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: maeve
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:12 PM

Hey katlaughing- I haven't thought about Dr. Trueblood for years! My family knew him when I was very young.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._Elton_Trueblood


And another of his quotes for Joe-
http://www.whatquote.com/quotes/D--Elton-Trueblood/12438-A-man-has-made-at-le.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:09 PM

Yeah, that too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

nice post, Bee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:44 AM

Good post there, Bryn.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:32 AM

I agree with you, Bee. However, more input from the thread originator would be nice, too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

I don't 'hate' these kinds of discussions. I do hate that some people become so emotional and rejecting of each other in them.

My observation is that most of us don't become hateful, but once a couple or three do, a couple-three others become highly emotional about that and immediately accuse everybody of being unkind/bitter/hateful, when in fact it's just the usual few, often named 'Guest', though not always.

I like discussing religions. Because I am not a believer, I am out of step with most of the people in the world. Why wouldn't I be endlessly curious about why this difference exists, between those like me and those not like me? Why wouldn't I enjoy discussing why I don't believe and someone else does?

And Joe, aren't you pigeonholing people yourself? Quote: "I hate these religion threads. I tell people I'm a believer because that is what I am; but I've found that when most people hear I'm a believer, they then pigeonhole me into whatever their understanding of belief is - in many cases, that seems to mean they think that I'm some sort of rigid automaton, marching to the drum of some demagogue. "

The vast majority of unbelievers like me are surrounded by families and friends who are believers. Do you really think we feel that way about our own beloeved families? Do you think we are so insular that we can't project our feelings and understanding of our families out in to the world of other people?

I don't understand the broad accusation of atheists being insulting, scornful of the religious, one-note-Johnnies. There are people on Mudcat who are very outspoken and adamant in defense of their beliefs. I often disagree with them, I might even think the direction in which their belief takes them is in some sense dangerous, or even inhumane. But I am perfectly aware of other aspects of their lives and personalities. They play music. They have families and pets. They have interesting and creative hobbies. They are known to do very generous things. Exactly like the subset of Atheist/Agnostic/Pantheist posters here. Exactly the things I like about people, the things that make them diverse and the things that they hold in common.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM

Ed - why don't you choose your own concept of God ?

God, as you understand God ?

I follow the path of Wicca, so that I find God in every living creature, and even in the inanimate : a flight of birds ; cloud formations ; new growth on trees ; the light in my grandsons' eyes ; my daughter's smile ; my beloved's laughter lines ; the purring of my pussy cats; rainbows ; sunsets ; etc.

Should I need to "anthropomorphise" that which is sacred to me, I think on the Great Mother, and the All Father.

I do not try to proselytise, but one saw of Wicca runs :

". . . if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou wilt never find it without (outside) thee . . . "

Wise and Blessed Be. Kind regards, Bryn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 03:39 AM

Slag, I don' worship no trees.
I just ponder my Ponderosa....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:08 AM

I would not expect Chongo to know what it is that I imagine....or to care.

But I know what he imagines. Shall I tell you? Shall I tell you the lurid things that Chongo spends his spare moments imagining?

Naw...he'd get really embarrassed. I couldn't do that to a pal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:57 AM

I don't waste my time tryin' to figure out what LH is imaginin'. A fool's errand! I got way too much work to spend my time on that. Gotta pay the rent, y' know. Me, I don't question the existence of God, but I think people got it partly wrong in the Creation story and that stuff about the Ark. I'll say this, though, the Garden of Eden was in Africa. Was. It ain't there no more. Somebody told me it was to be found now in Atlantic City, but that turned out to be a big lie. The same guy that told me that ended up in jail for fraud, tax evasion, and grand larceny, so that shows ya how reliable he is! Ook! Ook!

- Chongo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:35 AM

Please, all take note at my restraint. Take note of God's restraint. As the Word says "Let the heathen rage".

Chongo, tell me what it is that LH is imagining, or is LH just a figment of YOUR imagination? You DO like figs, don't you? Try 'em with mint.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:33 PM

Ed: The Secret...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b1GKGWJbE8
Consider the expression, "he has lost his mind..." What this means is that YOU have chosen to hold thoughts which are not in alignment for your greater good. Once you change your direction/perception of reality, your world will change. Thoughts are THINGS. You create your own reality...
I don't remember where I picked this up, or if I created it, but it goes like this..."If you have your head stuck in a bucket of sh&t; why are you surprised, that when you open your eyes, you see brown?" Terse. but effective...
You might want to explore Charles F. Haanel,"The Master Key"...
Also, Prentice Mulford & Wallace Wattles
The answer is there waiting for you...
"Who do you think you are, a Superstar? Then. Right you are! - John Lennon
"Whether you think you can, or cannot, either way, you're right! - Henry Ford
"Say the secret word and the duck will come down and give you $100...Groucho Marx...
"Truly I say to you, if you had faith as of a mustard seed, you could tell this mountain to jump into the sea..." - Well -You know who...

The hard part with all of this is that you must train your mind, even in the face of poverty, to feel/think, ABUNDANCE...
In the face of disease, HEALTH..
Etc.
Or, as the centurian asked of Jesus, "Master, if you would but touch my cloak, I would be healed." Then Jesus replies,"what do you mean, IF?"
NAMASTE...
bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:12 PM

Rhyming "handle" with "broadband'll" is a stroke of genius. LOL!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:01 PM

John Hardly, that would make a lovely song:

Can I take my cookie to Heaven
And stay eternally logged in?
If I do not troll, when they call the roll
Of those who resisted sin,
Will I be one of the honored
And type with familiar handle
In Heaven, my dial-up will not work
But wireless broadband'll

(Sorry. Back to the serious stuff.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:34 PM

john - The despicable and vicious "God" that you would wish to see destroyed is simply the bizarre version of "God" that you have made up in your own imagination...based on your impression of whatever the heck kind of weird, twisted thing it is that you have convinced yourself that somebody else out there is imagining.

As such, you're tied to your subjective version of someone else's hypothetical fantasy life and are imagining that it is all there is to be said about the matter. You're reacting to a mental boogeyman that you yourself created out of thin air. That makes you at about the same level as the people you're so upset about....a fanatic who is complaining about another fanatic's fanaticism.

If someone hadn't bit you on the arse in some manner connected with religion at some time in the past I doubt you'd be worrying about it now the way you are.

WHAT concept of God?

Hell, there must be 100,000 different concepts of God out there. Most of them have probably never even crossed your mind.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM

Converse


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:23 PM

"God does not exist, but if he did, it would be necessary to destroy him."

And the converse is . . . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: john f weldon
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:19 PM

The concept of God is not merely wrong, it is despicable. God does not exist, but if he did, it would be necessary to destroy him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:12 PM

I just logged onto an internet forum I hadn't visited in quite some time. I'd even forgotten my password. Anyway, I couldn't help but notice that it gave the option to stay logged on for anywhere (anywhen?) from 6 hours, up to (and I quote), "forever".

Cool.

So, you know, for me clicking "forever" was just an unexpected change of future address. For agnostics, though, it would be totally mind-blowing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

"Surely 'He' could make it easier???"

Ed, would you explain "it", please?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:58 PM

"...", and you may quote me.

Joe! You are worshipping a tree now? Well, Ok! As you are peering off into the West, that's me over there on Cow Mountain, about 1/3 the way up waving at you! Worship the Creator, not the creation! Cheers! God bless.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:53 PM

And, just to sum up the real deal behind all this, please remember:

God is a verb




A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:52 PM

"I'd like to believe that there is a God - Surely 'He' could make it easier?"


Of *course* there is God! :-) xxx

But you'll excuse me for not calling 'Him' or 'Her' and I therefore apologise for the repetitiveness of 'God' in what follows, (which is purely my opinion by the way, reached through many years of ups and downs)

I'm not at all religious, for all that palava belongs to 'Mankind'.

God is not to be found in 'holy' books, nor inside the rules or regulations which lie within them. God is not in churches or mosques, nor in wars or politics. God is not in hatred, or rape or murder. God is not there to be used for 'control' or to pour guilt down upon innocent people. God is not there in riches and jewels. God is not there as our young people vomit up their souls night after night, in drunken stupors, trying to stagger through a world that has turned its back upon them and upon God, leaving them with such an aching 'emptiness' inside.

God is in the eyes of the Big Issue Seller though, and in the cry of a newborn baby, in a mother's first look. God is there at the moment that a Love so deep is created, God is there when finally peace becomes stronger than war. God is in Joe's tree and in every animal that climbs it, every cloud that rises above it, every raindrop which falls upon it, every sun that sets behind it.

God is the souls of the dying, as they take their final breath, bringing them peace. God is around all who have already passed on, those who are 'in the process' and those who are left behind. Even those who choose to think they may not believe. God is there in every struggle overcome and in those that sometimes overcome us. God is there when we feel so alone and God is there when we finally start to open our eyes.

God is to be found when we least expect to find anyone. Sometimes God simply comes to us from reaching out into a terrifying, all-encompassing, heart-stopping darkness, when suddenly you find yourself being held so damned strongly, by hands you never even knew existed.

All you have to do, is invite God in, then watch the eyes and souls of those you begin to touch.

For God is catching! :-)

And right now, we need God more than we have ever done before, to bring back compassion, kindness, empathy, wisdom and understanding, because for way too long now so many of us have shut all thought of God out.

God is no colour, nor race, nor sex, nor name. God simply 'is' and why should God make things easier? That part, my friend, God leaves entirely up to us to do.


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr.

God Matters - We have been silent too long.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:03 PM

I disagree, Jeri. My Ponderosa Pine is inherently good, as are the mountains I see behind it.
-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 4 December 12:52 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.