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BS: Why are Folkies so critical?

Little Hawk 02 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM
Peace 01 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM
Peace 01 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM
Peace 01 Mar 08 - 08:51 PM
Little Hawk 01 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM
Gene Burton 01 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM
Peace 01 Mar 08 - 05:20 PM
Gene Burton 01 Mar 08 - 05:19 PM
Peace 01 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM
Little Hawk 01 Mar 08 - 05:05 PM
Gene Burton 01 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM
Peace 01 Mar 08 - 04:56 PM
Little Hawk 01 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 08 - 11:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Feb 08 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Ed 29 Feb 08 - 03:40 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM
Mr Red 27 Feb 08 - 07:34 AM
Slag 26 Feb 08 - 09:54 PM
Don Firth 26 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM
dick greenhaus 26 Feb 08 - 04:57 PM
Don Firth 26 Feb 08 - 04:39 PM
Waddon Pete 26 Feb 08 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Interested 26 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 08 - 02:51 PM
Mr Red 26 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Interested 26 Feb 08 - 12:44 PM
Peace 26 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 26 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM
Peace 26 Feb 08 - 10:02 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 26 Feb 08 - 09:59 AM
Peace 26 Feb 08 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 08 - 09:06 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 26 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM
Slag 26 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 26 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Feb 08 - 05:42 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 26 Feb 08 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 08 - 03:09 AM
Slag 25 Feb 08 - 11:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM
dick greenhaus 25 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM
Little Hawk 25 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM
Peace 25 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM
Peace 25 Feb 08 - 09:57 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 25 Feb 08 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 08 - 08:53 AM
Mr Red 25 Feb 08 - 08:01 AM
Slag 25 Feb 08 - 05:43 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

Viva Fidel!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM

VIVA PAPER TOWELS!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM

VIVA ANN CHOVY!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:51 PM

VIVA ZAPATA!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

Nom de Dieu! Il s'avère que l'ennemi calomnieux a été conduit par le champ de la bataille par la puissance de la langue française. Périssez ainsi tous les tyrans!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM

Oui, mais involontairement hilare ! ! ! C'est un phénomène bien observé qui ceux qui font tendre les la plupart des avis à être ceux avec la moindre connaissance...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:20 PM

Quand ils se fâchent ils sont idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:19 PM

Oui, mais les critiques ne prospèrent-ils pas d'être gêné ? Je n'obtiens pas l'impression qu'ils sont en particulier motivés par le plaisir... Je vois mon rapport avec des critiques pendant qu'un un symbiotique leur opprobre me met le feu vers le haut, tandis que je leur fournis la raison continue d'être critique !


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

Vous obtiendrez les critiques fâchés.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:05 PM

Yes. ;-) It should probably read, "Why am I so critical of Folkies?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

Parlant seulement pour me, je critique seulement la stagnation de la scène folklorique britannique courante, qui est en grande partie le défaut des critiques de non-performers/art de l'auto-portrait-appointed qui ne tirent jamais les cordes d'autres interprètes, pour qui je prends le plus grand respect (il est dur hors de là !)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:56 PM

"RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?"

The thread premise is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

dick greenhaus...you said: "It's not nice if you take half the show with inane drivel while you're trying to tune. It's not a good thing to follow a long ballad in Em with another long ballad in Em."

Bloody hell, dick! You've just trashed my whole act, you insensitive sod! I hope you drop your blasted banjo on your foot, you prat!







Just joking, dick... I take great care not to follow any Em ballad with another Em ballad. For instance, just throw a capo on at the 2nd fret and PRESTO! You're in F#m, all set to go...and with a whole new sound. ;-) This is what all the real pros do.




GUEST, Ed - Yes, just tell us exactly what you want us to say about why folkies are so critical and we'll say it for you. We are folkies, and we're very obliging, you see. Our only real desire is to please you in any way we possibly can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:40 AM

What answer did you have in mind?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:00 PM

give us a chance, which answer would you like, we'll get as near to it as we can.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:40 PM

Is it a really difficult question???

No-one who has posted has gone anywhere near an answer. I think the question is a valid one.

Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM

Tony Capstick used to tell this story, I wish I could do it like him:-

I'm walking through Sheffield, and this bloke comes up, he sez - Hey! It's Tony Capstick!
And I said, that's right
And he said, you sing and play the guitar abit...tell jokes - make peole laugh....
I said, that's right
He sez, can you take some constructive criticism? Honest constructive criticism.....
I said, all right....
He said, You're crap mate!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:34 AM

Please yerself and you get the audience that will accept it. And it may not be to your liking either.

In the Bobby Darin biopic that was sort of addressed. How much it represented his actual experience is moot but I trust Kevin Spacey.

Basically as portrayed - Bobby tried a civil rights message song in cabaret and it bombed. Then he took it to Las Vegas and he got a mega Gospel Choir to back him coming down a massive flight of steps, all in brilliant costume. Same song, same message. Different reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:54 PM

...or as that great folk lyricist and song writer put it, "You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself!" 'Garden Party' by Rick Nelson, ca ? 1980 or perhaps earlier, can't remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

Amen!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:57 PM

Let me take it a step further. If you're performing in public, it's nice if people can understand the words. It's not nice if you take half the show with inane drivel while you're trying to tune. It's not a good thing to follow a long ballad in Em with another long ballad in Em.

Folksingers don't have to act or sound like anything but folksingers. But it would be nice if they looked and sounded like goodfolksingers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:39 PM

The last couple of folk festivals I went to were very well attended. But if you wanted to hear traditional music, you had to make your way up into meeting rooms in the extreme northwest corner of the Seattle Center grounds. Everywhere else, it sounded like more like a rock festival. When I first went onto the grounds, the first thing to hit my ears was "Duke, duke, duke, Duke of Earl, Earl, Earl—" and I wondered if I'd come to the right place. Yeah, it was well attended all right, but I'm not sure all these people were there to hear folk music, however you want to define it.

I have to agree with Dick Greenhaus (21 Feb 08 - 05:12 p.m. and 25 Feb 08 - 06:34 p.m.).

Among "folkies," Richard Dyer-Bennet was not everyone's cup of tea, but then he wasn't targeting his performances for folkie audiences. Although some folkies understood and appreciated what he was doing, his main appeal was to general audiences, particularly classical music audiences, and especially those who were into early music. Patterning himself after Swedish minstrel Sven Scholander, he never referred to himself as a "folk singer." He considered himself to be a minstrel, continuing a tradition that dates back more than a millennium. Different countries had different words for this kind of traveling self-accompanied singer:   trouvere in southern France, troubadour in northern France, minnesinger in Germany, skald in the Scandinavian countries, bard in Wales. . . .

In that a minstrel was a professional musician, i.e., he made his living by being paid to sing, it behooved him to have a repertoire of songs that were interesting to his audiences, and to be able to sing them and accompany them well. With that in mind, Dyer-Bennet makes the following point:
"No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."
I maintain that if a person is going to appear in front of a paying audience, or even one that isn't paying but is investing their time, that person has taken on a certain obligation to that audience. Not only do you owe it to the audience, you owe it to the music—and to yourself.

Don Firth

P. S. Am I being sufficiently critical?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:43 PM

Hello,

"And they don't give a toss about participation like sessions etc"

Sessions are well popular round our way!

IMHO

There is a problem using the word critical.....it means more than one thing and isn't always helpful :0)

We hear a lot about the "critical friend", when perhaps we should be talking about appreciative assistance or having a developmental partnership with someone whose grasp of the music we love, we trust.

BTW

Given the recent furore about 1954 and horses.....does this put the cat among the pigeons? (Or the mares among the crotchets?)

Just a bit of fun....honest, guv!

Best wishes,

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM

OK Jim but space is a pretty big world (Captain Kirk) so where do we start looking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:51 PM

"Name and shame, Jim! Let's hear more about these two daft ha'porths, please!"
Sorry,
Have aired this at length and have recently been warned off when one of them complained to the site administrator.
However - the answer lies out there (Captain Kirk - or was it Mulder and Scully?),
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM

dick greenhaus

Hasn't anyone noticed the shrinking audience for folk and folkish music?

Well in the UK at least Folk Festivals are not shrinking. The real problem is that they are pulling-in larger audiences
audience more used to Rock and it has to be LOUD. And they don't give a toss about participation like sessions etc. The folk ethos of caring and sharing is being lost.

You try pointing that out to organisers and you may not get mere criticism - you get invective, insult, total humour by-pass. And they don't stop on the Cat - meet them in person and you have hurt them so badly they have to announce it to anyone around you.

Truth is - you may have hurt their wallet. Now that ain't FOLK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:44 PM

'I can remember very few critics (a couple), who used their position as critics to further their careers or get their own back; most said what they said because they believed it.'

Name and shame, Jim! Let's hear more about these two daft ha'porths, please!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM

I have things to get to just now, but I will read it over the lunch hour--which has become 30 minutes--and I think I will enjoy it very much (from a quick skim). THAT--the writing of prose--has got to be the most difficult area to 'break' into. Hang in, Nigel. Really. Please don't get disheartened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

I reckon hell will freeze over before I get a deal... but I'll keep strugglin' on. Thanks for the thumbs up, though.

If you have fifteen minutes on your hands this or this might be something you'll enjoy.

Or not...

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:02 AM

Nigel, you are a helluva writer, imo. I hope some company gets off its buns and publishes your prose. You have a neat way with words. Cheers back to you from the frozen north.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:59 AM

Cheers, Bruce, decent of you to say.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:54 AM

"Here's an example (by lil ol' me) of criticism: Subway Review"

Good review, Nigel. Well-written and it's the type of 'criticism' anyone could stand. Thanks for sharing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:06 AM

Slag,
Of course it's entertainment - but much, much more - that's what makes it unique.
Listen to Joe Heaney talking about what he expects out of his singing; or Paddy Tunney, or any of the great stylists. Listen to the incredible standard reached by some of the most 'ordinary' (for the want of a better word) people on Bert Lloyd's 'Folk music Virtuoso'.
Read what Sharp's singers had to say about the songs in Fox Strangeway's biography (chapter on collecting). Read gypsy woman, Phoebe Smith's moving statement on singing on the sleeve of her LP, or the introduction to Sheila Stewarts biography of her mother Belle, 'Queen Amang The Heather' where she talks about learning the ballads.
Conversations we've had with traditional singers, particularly Walter Pardon bear out that the songs went far beyond entertainment, and the demands that the singers, at their best, made on themselves, were far higher than many revival singers' expectations.
We've seen (and recorded) singers breaking down in the middle of a song, because of the level of involvement in what they are singing about.
I have never understood why 'art' and 'entertainment' should be contradictory objectives.
Doesn't a good painter, writer, musician, singer - whatever - 'enjoy' being skilful and producing something so beautiful that it might be considered 'art'? If you believe that traditional singers had no critical standard, you should listen to some of the West Clare singers talking about the 'greats' of the area, Tom Lenihan or 'Straighty' Flanagan.
On the other hand, aren't there bad and good entertainers?
Do we really believe that folksong, in the words of the early collectors, was as as "natural and instictive as birdsong".
I repeat MacColl's point:
"The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where, when he starts to sing, he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
can't gainsay that one - can you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

Slag - You're right. I did misunderstand your post. I was thrown by the 'You raise a good point Peace' at the start (joke! joke! ok?)... So (deep breath) people who may be percieved to be in a 'position of power' in the folk world(s) shouldn't express potentially contentious opinions in public forae that may be damaging to the music and/or 'folk community'? Or something like that?

I think I agree, in that case. As long as its not about stifling valid and constructive debate. And friendly piss-taking for that matter.

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

No, no Nigel, I used words like "honesty" and "integrity", promoting the ART and not necessarily any one artist. At least I hope I did.

Jim, here is something you may disagree with me on. To the world at large what you do is "entertainment". To them, the audience, you and your art are a distraction, something clever, cleverly done. You give them a tune to remember and whistle or hum when they are happy or mull over when they are sad. They may remember the words or the "cause" the words represent, whether they agree with the cause or not (A nickle for every time I've heard someone say "Yeah, I like the tune but disagree [or completely disagree] with the lyrics."). And who is to say they are wrong about it being entertainment? Don't you entertain yourself when you sing or play an instrument? Paint a picture or write a poem? Design a killer building or write a play? Your attitude and degree of seriousness is different because of the side of the stage you are on but (hopefully!) there are more of them out there than there are on stage. So who is to say they are wrong? There are some serious fans who study the art(s) or even dabble in it (as me self does) but most are casual observers even if they are simpatico with your message.

So what does this mean? Well, for one it means to not take yourself too seriously. If they are there to be entertained, entertain them. If they say you stink, don't take it too seriously (maybe it was the extra Guinness speaking!) or honestly find out what they didn't like about your performance and take it from there. Your peers are the ones who are mostly likely to give you good feedback. We, in the arts, ARE entertainers, so entertain!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

Who's this 'you' you keep referring to, WLD? Is it those rascals 'they' wearing a cunning disguise?

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:42 AM

Well all I can say is you've been fighting a different war. I'm attracted to exciting people with talent. Sometimes, not all that likeable. But their talent biffs you on the nose. I never hear them on folk radio, or see them on the festival circuit, and they never get a serious review of their work in the folk press.

One thing is quite certain, the best songs that came out of my generation never got heard.

How about this for criticism - you've lost the interest of the English public, you employ your mates continually - most of whom couldn't fill a telephone kiosk without you banging a drum for them, the broadcaster scouting for gigs (playing the residents attempts at folkmusic) and forgetting to mention the folk clubs that don't book him....oh don't get me started!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:51 AM

"Take a pill, Nigel. You'll live longer."

Now, I wouldn't say something like that to you or anyone else on Mudcat. Even if I did think they were talking shite. But thank you anyway. You're too kind.

I go to a writers group. We each read extracts from our works-in-progress and them we all criticise what we hear - some positive, some negative, but all intended to help each one of us get better at what we do. And you know what? It works. The end of my recent (unpublished) novel is far, far better written than the start.

Unless I've misunderstood, by your logic Bruce, there should not be a review section in any magazine or paper. Fine, if you don't want the publicity. Because if we censor the reviews that say such-and-such an album is a waste of good vinyl, we should also censor the ones that say "you've got to hear this fantastic record". To have the one without the other invalidates the whole process... and you can't tell me no-one ever in the history of recorded music has made a bad record.

Slag - unless I've misunderstood you, you seem to be suggesting there should be no independent opinion, just cunningly disguised advertising. Not sure what use that would be to anyone, including, ultimately, the artist.

And Bruce (again!), the thing about having far better taste than anyone else was a JOKE - yer good ol' English irony... I was 'pretending' to be as arrogant as some of the other posters on that thread. I actually don't think I'm the 'last word' in anything... and I don't believe I've ever said this, so please don't accuse me of it, ok? All I do is state my opinions. Too bad if you're offended by them - that's not what I've ever intended.

FINALLY... Here's an example (by lil ol' me) of criticism: Subway Review ... I'd be intrigued to discover in what way something like this is a heinous crime against music or musicians.

I'm out of here. For now.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:09 AM

Why are Folkies so critical?
They're not - or nothing like critical enough.
I have never heard anybody say 'near enough for opera', or 'football - it's only a game!' (I come from a city where, if you said that after your team was defeated, you'd be found beaten to a bloody pulp in some back alley).
The pervading attitude in too many quarters seems to be that standards in folk song don't apply; anybody can sing and it's just a bit of fun.
While we take the piss out of our music, we can't complain when outsiders do the same (just been watching the 'Have I Got News For You' re-run where the panel tell the world that the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance is performed by eccentics who are there to be laughed at.
Genuine criticism is an essential yardstick by which we measure our abilities. Too often it is bland and anodyne, which may be good for our egos, but it does nothing for our music.
I can remember very few critics (a couple), who used their position as critics to further their careers or get their own back; most said what they said because they believed it.
I find myself in total agreement with the slag again; you'll be getting yourself a reputation!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:06 PM

You raise a good point Peace. There are critics and then there are CRITICS. That is, those who are quite knowledgeable, have been or are related to the art/industry in some way which would give credence to their word and who pontificate in some way or some forum which carries the weight of influence effecting the financial aspect of the endeavor. Those CRITICS have a responsibility to the integrity of whatever their subject is. They also have a moral obligation to be honest and not contentious or demeaning or engage in personalities. Their job, strictly speaking should be for the promotion and preservation of the art.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM

perhaps they are the folkie audience but they don't agree with 1947 codicil about what constitutes folk music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM

The severest critics are the non-folkie audiences, who vote with their feet. Hasn't anyone noticed the shrinking audience for folk and folkish music?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM

Here's another reason we are so critical. For a brief, wondrous, shining time...we ruled the world.

Then it ended. Those damned British rockers brought it all crashing down with their moptop haircuts, their screaming audiences of hysterical teenage girls, their idiotic onstage behaviour, and their excessive lifestyle choices.

We've been a bit frustrated ever since that happened, so we take it out on the world by being critical. ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM

What's it all about Alfie? Its got bloody convoluted.

I'm a bit cheesed off cos people keep saying what I do isn't folkmusic - mainly cos that was the intention.

They've all got terrific reasons for saying its not folk music.. But ideas change - like onetime everybody thought the earth was flat. you can't subordinate what you want to do, to the fact somebody has an IDEA.

supposing you said, oh I won't do that, because this bloke has got an idea. And then afterwards he changes his mind. You would have stopped doing what you wanted to do for nothing.

I hope my position is clear.

al


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM

Critics are self-inflated balloons of what? You are a listener by your own admission. One who has excellent taste by your own admission. So criticize all you want. No one is trying to take that right away from you. However, neither do you have the right to be the last word--other than in your own head. If that's what you're saying, good.

Critics damage the careers of others. They do so for good lines in a review. You are not the last word on folk, what constitutes folk, what folk means or does. You are but another voice in the chorus.

Speaking of bright sparks: Want a flick of my Bic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:57 AM

Take a pill, Nigel. You'll live longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:34 AM

Way back in the early days of this thread, some bright spark said "Those that can, do..."

God, I'll probably puke if I hear this patently rubbish truism one more time. It gets said on Mudcat at least once a week.

It says two things:

1. You are forbidden any opinions on anything unless you can do that thing yourself. Forgive me if that slips my mind next time someone makes a pig's ear of some job or other... Want to take some shoes back to the shop when they split after wearing them once? "Well... can you actually make shoes yourself, sir? No? Then, sorry, I can't help you."

2. None of us need ever use any discernment of any sort when going to concerts or buying CDs. If absolutely everything is above criticism you can just go into that record shop, shut your eyes, do a twirl and buy the first thing you crash into. It doesn't matter if it's not to your taste, because if you couldn't make it yourself you can't criticise.

Of course, the very people who say "Those that can, do..." usually rely on the rest of us, who, because we can't presumably shouldn't, to buy their CDs, attend their gigs etc.

I suppose the correct reply would be "Just shut up and sing, dammit!"

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:53 AM

Slag,
"pedant!!!"
Get tired of people who substitute invective for argument - sorry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:01 AM

Donuel

As I learn how limiting ego can be and as I divest myself of its worst trapppings I have found that people are not nearly as critical as I had formerly thought.


Oh how apt. the Folk fraternity, IMNSHO, by and large ignores egoes. Which makes them quiet or slink away. When you read about the myriad ceilidh bands that are happy to slave away at their "hobby" for little more than break-even financially, and are happy with the reward of smiling faces - it fair makes you well-up.

On Saturday at Bath ceilidhs (3rd Sat in Combe Down) I saw a lot on unfamiliar faces as well as the regular suspects, all smiling. Mind you, the Old Swan Band would create such pleasure with their experienced line-up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:43 AM

Gee, Jim C! Can't I have a little fun too? At my own expense? ala Little Hawk, et al? That was nasty? Oh, well... I guess I need to learn to take criticism also. Thanks. I'll consider what you said and try to figure out what nastiness was involved. Cheers!

Tom


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