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Davey Graham: what a waste

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The Borchester Echo 26 Oct 07 - 12:15 PM
The Sandman 26 Oct 07 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 26 Oct 07 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Friend of Bill 26 Oct 07 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 26 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,The Ballad of the Bold Researcher 26 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,wordy 26 Oct 07 - 01:39 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 07 - 01:46 PM
Snuffy 26 Oct 07 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 26 Oct 07 - 03:58 PM
GUEST,wordy 26 Oct 07 - 05:22 PM
Barry Finn 27 Oct 07 - 01:39 AM
Bugsy 27 Oct 07 - 02:15 AM
redsnapper 27 Oct 07 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 27 Oct 07 - 06:51 AM
redsnapper 27 Oct 07 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 27 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 27 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,The Mad Catter 27 Oct 07 - 07:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Oct 07 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 27 Oct 07 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,Phil Beer 27 Oct 07 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 27 Oct 07 - 11:43 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 07 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,The Ballad of the Bold Researcher 27 Oct 07 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Rebecca Fox 27 Oct 07 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,pattyClink 27 Oct 07 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,wordy 27 Oct 07 - 08:44 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Oct 07 - 04:26 AM
goatfell 28 Oct 07 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,steg 28 Oct 07 - 01:33 PM
oggie 28 Oct 07 - 06:32 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Oct 07 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,The Mad Catter 28 Oct 07 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Mad Catter again 28 Oct 07 - 06:54 PM
Ian Burdon 28 Oct 07 - 06:56 PM
Jean(eanjay) 28 Oct 07 - 06:59 PM
goatfell 29 Oct 07 - 05:51 AM
goatfell 29 Oct 07 - 05:55 AM
Jean(eanjay) 29 Oct 07 - 06:14 AM
GUEST, Sminky 29 Oct 07 - 07:11 AM
Jean(eanjay) 29 Oct 07 - 07:39 AM
The Sandman 29 Oct 07 - 07:54 AM
goatfell 29 Oct 07 - 08:13 AM
John Routledge 29 Oct 07 - 08:21 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Oct 07 - 09:00 AM
Ruth Archer 29 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM
breezy 29 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM
breezy 29 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM
goatfell 29 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:15 PM

Oops, well, I think he did a bit of both. Who knows, really?


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:18 PM

Diane Easby, well said.
Davy Graham was the first person to popularise Dadgad,and has been an extremely influential guitarist.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:20 PM

Thanks, Santa. You said exactly what I wanted to say, only you probably said it better than I would be able to.

The testimony on the BBC page and youtube testifies that DG has a real problem. It's a real shame, as after the gig we were approached in the street by a young couple (probably early 20s), far too young to know of Davey's old greatness first hand, who asked, 'Weren't you just at the Davey Graham gig?' They then asked us if he's always that bad. I told them, with a mixture of sadness and some anger at paying money for a very short length of old rope, how ground-breaking, breath-taking and influential he has been. Alas, in his present state he is only doing damage. How awful that this was their first - and no doubt last - personal experience of Davey Graham. He needs help. Whether he'd take it if offered is a different question as, by reputation, he's been a junkie since the 60s, so maybe he can't remember anything else. But that's just speculation, of course, so I'll stop there.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Friend of Bill
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:23 PM

It's often said that we only seek help when we get "sick and tired of being sick and tired"


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM

A few posts above appeared while I was typing mine above. So just to say, Diane, that in no way was my original post intended as an "assassination attempt". If you read my original post I hope you would see this. I had no idea that it "is currently fashionable to knock Davy": I was simply sharing an appalling experience of an incapable performer who should not have been on the stage. You may interpret that as assassination: I am just telling the truth as I, my friends, and those I spoke to afterwards saw it. Everyone was either shocked, angry, bewildered or all three. I am not saying that for effect: that is how it was.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Ballad of the Bold Researcher
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM

"This thread is not going to help Davey Graham"

no one or nothing is going to help Davey Graham except Davey Graham


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:39 PM

The whole point of addiction is that it is not self-inflicted.

Really? heroin addiction is.
Just say no to the first fix.
I did.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:46 PM

Pharisees


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:03 PM

To my mind there are two quite separate issues here, but they are being treated as one.

A professional "artist" demands money from the public: they in return have a right to see the artist's skills displayed professionally and competently. An artist who can not do that should not be appearing.

There are many reasons why an artist may no longer be competent at the required level: alcoholism or addiction are not the only reasons. They are not the reason why other giants of the 60s such as Muhammad Ali, Bobby Charlton, Jackie Stewart or Nic Jones no longer "perform". There comes a time when it's best to say "enough", whatever the cause, allowing your public to remember you in your prime.

BTW - I've never seen Davy Graham perform, and therefore have no useful opinion on his competence: if he's still good enough then by all means carry on.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:58 PM

To a certain degree, great artists are allowed to get away with behaviour that wouldn't be tolerated in lesser mortals. It is said that Davy started taking drugs because his jazz heroes had gone down that road - always with very bad results, as it happens. Yardbird, Coltrane, Miles, and Chet have all given vert poor performances because of drugs. I would have hated to have recommended to a friend that they go and see Davy, and then have him, Davy, deliver a dreadful performance. I love Davy and a places he has taken me musically. He was/is indeed a complete guitarist in a way that Bert never was, but he needs help. Lots of it.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:22 PM

If the word Pharisee was directed at my last post, then let me answer.
I have lost two great friends and great talents to alcohol. Most of us drink, most of us include alcohol in moderation in our social life, society offers places for that very purpose, but none of us knows if we will become that small number that become alcoholics. I don't hold them in any way to blame. Society says it's okay to take a drink, and most of us do with impunity. Like all the friends of my two friends I tried to help, but in vain.
However, any person who takes the first fix knows what's at stake. Society knows and says don't do it. No one is ignorant of what heroin does to all who take it.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 01:39 AM

Junkies & alcoholics are different from each other. The drunk has it harder because alcohol is easier to get, more additive (smoking is found to be more addictive than both), mentally & physcially harder to kick than most drugs (methadone being an exception), it's socially more acceptable, it's far easier to be a functioning alcoholic than it is for a junkie & then the legal issues surrounding both favor the drinker. The conditions aren't all that different though both are dependant phyically, mentally & spiritually, it's become their best friend & eventually their only friend. It's gonna be hard to give it up, it's the only thing that gives them comfort, escape, a reason for living, a sense of excitment, a cure from boredrom, the one thing that makes them feel worthy & exceptable & wards off the loneliness & it will stick by them till death do they part.

Almost all alcoholics & junkies can't get a handle on their sicknesses by themselves (there are the few exceptions), they cannot help themselves,,,,yet. It's hard for them to even admit it & see it. That's their 1st step to recovery, to see that they 1st have a problem. Most can't see that they've a real problem, they lie to themselves & tell themselves it's not yet that bad & they can handle it & even then most aren't even willing to or don't have the disire to be saved & even if they did they don't know how to be saved once they're ready. There's none (that I can think of) that I've ever known (& I've known more than just a few hundred) that didn't have to hit absolute rock botton (once they're really addicted) before they are willing or even capable of saying to themselves I need some kind of help & yes, I want help & that's the easiest part for them & it's only the begining, just getting to there is so hard & many can't even get that far. Rock botton isn't just poor health or I'm broke. Rock bottom is when there's no one left in your world that's there for you, what ever you once had is gone. Your money is usually 1st then your spouse & kids & house, your car then your job after that, then it starts to get personnal, you lose your friends then your family then goes your health (well it's already been in serious decline), you have no place to eat (even if you had something to eat), sleep or shit, you are lucky if you end up in jail. Then you lose your humanity, respect has been long gone but if you can trade any body parts or functions you'll sell those in a second. Still this isn't close enough to bottom for many, eventually death is the stopper for a lot. Once the bottom is hit then it's time for the help but the afflicted don't have the resources nor the tools or the knowledge to rise above their conditions & even if they do it's mighty hard for them to pass the temptation to go back. AA has them toughening it out day by day & they need that support system for God knows how long, that should be changed to residential treatment centers but then you've got all the reasons, some good & some bad against that.
Many have to fall & fail a lot before they're able to really find their legs to keep walking (each time they fail it's so much worst for themboth getting back on drugs & getting off again). I've only met a few (actually only 2) who've made it with out some kind of residental rehabilition therapy or treatment & still function without the day to day need for constant support like AA. Here in the US there's very long waiting lists or you need an awful lot of money, at least for drug rehabilition AA is different. The time when a junkie says please help me can quickly fade with weakness if the waits to long & junkies if they have the money it's gonna feed their habit before it gets spent on getting them help.
When they are ready for help they 1st find out that the drug or drink is their best & only friend & that the old habits die hard as do the old haunts & habitats. They then have to find a new way to rebuild a new life & style completely alien to their old one otherwise they'll trap themselves & set themselves up to fail by placing themselves in positions that they're years away from handling properly (remember they've never handled anyting properly before & have to learn). They need to find a new career or profession that they can coup with, new hobbies that will focus on helping them with being bored & give them a sense of excitment, in these they'll hopefully find friends which helps with the extreme loneliness that those that go it alone feel. One doesn't learn how to do these things & so much more on their own, that's why only a handful make it. Out of the hundreds that I've know I can count on 1 hand how many have made it (aside from the 2 I mentioned above). The odds are way less than 1 in 100, probably closer to 1 in 1000, that's why it looks like such a hopeless situation to those trying to recover, they begin to relize what the odds are
.
Yes it's self inflicted & they alone have to chose to do it, but it's a pity that there's not much it the way of preventive education, funds, funds & more funds, true accessable recovery centers that are affordable, with decent staff instead of ex's running the programs & the willingness to see them as criminals instead of victums of a sickness & in part of a society. For some (maybe even more like for many) it starts as a way to just self medicate, that's what's really a crying shame.

Anyway, Davey has it tough & if I knew him I'd feel awful for him but I wouldn't give him a dollar that would contribute to him continuing his self abuse. His manger ought to be shot.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bugsy
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:15 AM

Well said Barry,

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: redsnapper
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:47 AM

I may be missing something but I am not sure I understand the point of this thread. There certainly seems to be some needless spitefulness from some posters.

Davey (Davy) Graham was probably one of the most influential guitarists on the scene and many current performers owe him a great debt for his innovative approach.

If he is going through some personal difficulties, one should support and encourage him, and show some compassion, rather than knocking him (he might well read this thread... how would some of the comments that have been made feel to some of the negative posters if it were them).

Perhaps I am being too simple and, if so, it would not be the first time.

RS


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:51 AM

Both posts from above.

redsnapper: "I may be missing something but I am not sure I understand the point of this thread."

Ian cookieless: "My intention was to tell the story to prevent others from having the experience we had. I want the man to be remembered for what he was, not what he is. That's most likely if he stops performing now, or if people choose not to go."


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: redsnapper
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:57 AM

Wouldn't it have been better then if you had told your friends and acquaintances rather than broadcasting it on a worldwide forum where others with a less charitable nature have since waded in with their negative pennyworth?

Just a thought.

RS


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM

I have no control over other people's nature, charitable or otherwise. Everything we do has consequences that can never be predicted. We have to do what we do and hope for the best or do nothing. If someone - especially a legend like DG - is regularly (normally, it now seems) incapable and excruciating on stage, I want people to know so that they don't waste their money and remain with, hopefully, good memories of him.

And what if he reads this? An artist must, somewhere in their consciousness, have in mind that they want their audience to think well of them and enjoy the night. He needs to know the truth. Everyone I spoke to in the audience that night - and it did create a coming together afterwards, a kind of stunned cameraderie, as we all thought it was so awful - thought exactly the same as me and my two friends. They thought the same as every almost person, as far I can tell, who has posted on the web about a performance of his in the last few years. We don't do him any favours by allowing this to continue.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM

redsnapper, if there is someone on this thread who has, as you suggest, been nasty towards DG for the hell of it, I would have made a comment that it was unwarranted. But I have not seen that anywhere on this thread.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Mad Catter
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:34 AM

What are discussion forums FOR if not to discuss? This one is not particularly nasty, there have been some very good posts (Diane and Barry to name two but they aren't the only ones). The man has talent. The man is now not playing as well as he once did. People pay good money to go to his gigs and end up disappointed and (arguably) ripped off. WHAT is the big taboo in starting this thread?


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:16 AM

There are a lot of nasty bigoted gits posting on his thread.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:01 AM

"If he is going through some personal difficulties, one should support and encourage him, and show some compassion, rather than knocking him (he might well read this thread... how would some of the comments that have been made feel to some of the negative posters if it were them)."


..seems to me..

if Davey Graham has any genuine true caring friends on his management team..

they should at least encourage him to read this thread

[and any similar on other forums]


as a meaningful part of any process to confront his demons...




ps.. thanks all for reminding me to move "FOLK ROUTES, NEW ROUTES"

closer to the top of my CD purchasing 'wish list'..xmas soon !!!..


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:20 AM

I was just emailed by a mate from Worcester who went to the show. It was along the lines of, 'Is this the bloke you've been banging on about for years? He was off his face and incapable of coherent performance. We left!'.
I'm very saddened to receive this and also very angry about what appears to me an attempt to trade on Davys name by the people surrounding him. His trials and troubles are well documented and its patently obvious that he should not be placed in this situation. Anyone purporting to have his interests at heart should at least be 'minding' him in the fullest sense of the word if it is his will to perform again. He IS capable of quality performance still. I have so far discovered that the booking agency (An excellent outfit with a good reputation, by the way, and known to me personally) who put this tour together sent someone to see him a while back at a gig in the Union Chapel which was very good and they based their decision to book the tour on that show.
Aside from this, I must once again reiterate that Davys 'Folk Blues and beyond' album remains for me one of the most important records ever made. I heard it when I was 14 years old and it has shaped my musical life ever since. It is available currently on fledg'ling records and anyone who wishes Davy well and wants to help him should buy it from them as he gets the royalties denied him by most of the other re releases of his albums.
I sincerely hope that Davys current 'managers' come to their senses and realise that they have to start taking big responsibilty if they continue with any of this (What I consider to be) exploitation.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 11:43 AM

Mr Beer, any chance you could reveal which DG re-issue labels we shouldn't buy? or is this just a rash generalisation.

Think very carefully as I wouldn't like my hard earned cash to not benefit the artist.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 11:56 AM

Where did Mr Beer say that?


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Ballad of the Bold Researcher
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 01:16 PM

this was what Phil said, regarding past Davy Graham records vis a vie royalties.

"It('Folk Blues and beyond') is available currently on fledg'ling records and anyone who wishes Davy well and wants to help him should buy it from them as he gets the royalties denied him by most of the other re releases of his albums"


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Rebecca Fox
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:37 PM

I was also at the aforementioned performance the other night. Whilst there WERE occasional flashes of what made (makes?) Davy such a great, innovative guitarist, these were few and far between. He was obviously aware of how badly it was going, and he had clearly completely given up by the time he announced, "and now for my next mistake..."

Of course, this was just one gig. By all accounts Davy's mental state varies considerably, and he may very well still be capable of putting in some notable performances. However, if his 'manager' was aware of how bad a state Davy was in that night, he quite simply should not have been allowed to go out and attempt to perform. It was not fair on Davy and it was certainly not fair on the audience. I suspect most were, like me, willing it to get better for Davy's sake as much for ours - because it was so so sad to witness.

I'm sorry if that seems negative or nasty to some people, but perhaps you had to have been there.

Peace,

Rebecca


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:57 PM

I have to put in 2 cents, based some handholding of alcoholics.

One cent is for Grimmy, who says "Being drunk on stage a couple of times doesn't make you an alcoholic". Well, yeah it does, if you no longer have enough judgment to stay off the stage when you're so pissed you're jeopardizing your reputation, then alcohol has some control over you and that is my definition of an alcoholic.

The other cent is for the 'self-inflicted' pool. I agree these folks should have decided to put it down very early on, yet very early on they didn't know they were going to be an addict. The problem is, in an alcoholic, the alcohol takes over the brain at some point and starts making all the decisions.

A person addicted to alcohol to the point it's causing problems has long since passed the point where they are total control of their choices, they have no objective judgment left, all they know is they think they are fine and they want another drink.

That's why most people can't just put it down using willpower, they have to be plopped into detox or rehab or some place where alcohol is no longer running the show, for some time until they learn to take control again.

Anyway, I saw a fine musician this year who I thought was dry for life, who is apparently back on it, showed up very dodgy put pulled himself together to play a good concert at half-speed. It breaks your heart.   

It's like watching the Elvis meltdown again, just so pathetic, yet you couldn't have got past that army of sycophants to tell him that if your life depended on it.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:44 PM

Well said Phil. A thoroughly professional summation of a sad situation.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:26 AM

Ditto for Patty Clink - well spoken. The positive (or at least constructive) messages here outnumber the negative ones, which are more self-righteous than nasty, and mostly show a lack of understanding rather than ill-will. The responses to these are some of the best posts in this thread.

Surely artists want (or need) to know how people Out There are reacting to their work. After all, they ARE taking a fee for services rendered. If the service is below par, it's fair to comment on it.

If Davy does read this it could actually be beneficial to him; and if it causes hurt feelings, it might also be a wake-up call.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:52 AM

My Brother Jim lives in Australia, and he at this moment is going through a rehab to dry out, he has been drinking alchohol for many years now and now he's faced up to it, I'm glad that he's realized that he can't go on like this.

So I feel sorry for Davy Graham, and also for the people that surrounds him.

Tom
ps
i'm a teetotller


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,steg
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 01:33 PM

I attended the Davy Graham gig at the Stables, Wavendon, on Tuesday 23rd Oct. John Smith, the support act, was fine, the intermission followed and at around 9.20ish, later than billed, an unknown figure appeared on stage and gave a less than dazzling rendition of some folky/bluesy material-fine for a folk-club floorspot.
DG then took the stage, began to ramble on incoherently and then started to play, very badly.
I left the auditorium,(as did other audience members) after a couple of numbers, unable to stand the embarrassment of watching this guitar icon struggle his way through his set. Whatever his problem is, drink, drugs or illness, he has no right to trade on his former glory in this way. His fingering and timing were well off, and his slurred and obscure ramblings may have made perfect sense to him.
I have admired his playing since I was a teenager but would advise anyone thinking of attending his performances to invest in an early album rather than waste their cash funding Davy's habit, whatever it may be. A sorry sight and one I would not wish to repeat.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: oggie
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:32 PM

Couple of points that also relate to another thread that's on the go.

Not performing is great in theory, if you are financially secure, have a pension etc. If not, how do you keep living? I know I will be working into my seventies.

A promotor has made a profit from each of these gigs, none of them said "sorry, you're not fit to perform" and gave the money back and took the hit.

Anyone here had the balls to say to a "legend", "sorry but you were s**t and pissed and a rip-off?"

Steve


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:52 PM

When you are prepared to take him in and feed him, to provide the analgesics as he withdraws, to make his bed, to make sure he gets to the doctor's to get his scrip and other prescriptions, to make sure he gets to the pharmacist to get the medicines, to support him so he does not need to expose his angst to the remuda-fish that the public are, and to pay his bills - then you can tell him that he would be wiser not to gig.

A performer is not public property.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Mad Catter
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:53 PM

Nope. But how long is either said promoter or said performer going to stay in business if the act is crap? They'll end up losing money anyway - AND the artist's good name along with it.

People may not have the balls to tell a legend they're shit, but they'll say it with their feet.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Mad Catter again
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:54 PM

My "nope" was intended for the question in the post above Richard's


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:56 PM

I saw Davy at Edinburgh Folk Club two years ago. As far as I could tell he was not drunk and, again at least as far as I could tell, wasn't drinking. The first half of the show really wasn't very good - he was playing Italian and Spanish tunes with a plectrum on a Fylde guitar with a soundhole pickup and not playing especially accurately (by his standards at least). The result was an overamplified mess (nothing to do with the soundman by the way)   The second half was much better: he played fingerstyle and was cracking jokes from the stage. Towards the end when went back to the plectrum and the quality dipped again.

I spoke to him during one of his breaks when he was happy to sign some old vinyl for me. Again there was no trace of alcohol as far as I could tell, although no attention was being paid to the smoking ban then in force in Scotland - and neither was it tobacco smoke.

From the posts above it would appear that something has happened in the past two years which is a shame.

I was surprised by the tone of some of the posts above. Whatever the rights and wrongs of his continuing to perform if his personal circumstances have robbed him of his skills, his contribution to the development of the guitar in British folk music - both in terms of the capabilities of the instrument and the movement away from four-square picking as an accompaniment - is surely unchallenged. Neither Bert Jansch nor John Renbourn mentioned above would, I think, demur from according him his due status - indeed as I recall one of the things which the young Renbourn set out to do was to learn by heart all of DGs arrangements on The Guitar Player. It is undoubtedly true that the "eclectic" nature of his explorations means that some of the material he recorded on his later albums in the sixties has not stood the test of time, but he is hardly alone in that.

Cheers

Ian


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:59 PM

Not performing is great in theory, if you are financially secure, have a pension etc. If not, how do you keep living?

I imagine that you would have to claim incapacity benefit or income support.

I've known people with drug/alcohol problems who were in other lines of work who have had to do that. Some, that I know, have been sacked because of unreliability as a result of these kind of problems.

I must say that I am very sympathetic to people with these problems but I wouldn't be able to watch somebody make a fool of themselves, it would upset me too much; I'd just leave and not worry about what it had cost me - but I wouldn't do it twice.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:51 AM

that's right kick a man when he's down,

not one of you have the courage to say that you feel sorry for this man, but that's your views.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:55 AM

Well some of you have said that you feel sorry for him but not all.

but that's the way you feel.

I just feel sorry for the guy, I have never seen him live, at lest i would stay for the whole concert good or bad.

I mean no one forced you to go did they


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:14 AM

I mean no one forced you to go did they.

Whilst no one forced anybody to go, equally nobody can force anybody to stay. I think everybody has to look after themselves as well as be concerned for other people. If watching something was causing me any distress then I wouldn't watch. I often turn off films and documentaries, even the news, if it is something that is upsetting me.

Arran, I've read this whole thread and I think that quite a few people have shown empathy and sympathy.

However, it's like any job really and sometimes we're just not up to it and sometimes we need help.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:11 AM

Ian Burdon - I was at the same Edinburgh gig and I agree with your observations: drink played no part in affecting his performance (he did have a half in the bar prior to the concert).

And drink played no part in the other 7 concerts of his I have seen since 1995, most of which were poor by anybody's standards.

And yet the consensus on these pages appears to be "Davy Graham is an alcoholic". Great! A misdiagnosis is just what the poor guy needs right now.

Hands up - all those who've been to a DG concert in the past 2 years: how many of you can honestly say that he was drunk and incapable?


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:39 AM

Guest, Sminky - you are absolutely right.

I, for one, haven't been to see Davy Graham for years. The last time I saw him he was brilliant.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:54 AM

This thread is an absolute disgrace.
Davy has been the most influential/innovative guitarist in folk terms of the 20 century,how dare anyone tell him,what he needs, are you all doctors,have you diagnosed him.no,
perhaps what he needs is to perform?,I dont know, I am no more qualified than any of the rest of you.
Perhaps old age is reponsible,it may be a contributory factor,none of us know,can you not give the poor fellow a break.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:13 AM

I know I'm not a doctor, as I say I just feel sorry for him, and as you say these people that kick him when he's down think that they are doctors, just leave the man alone please.

but that is up to you


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: John Routledge
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:21 AM

Yes Arran and Captain leave the man alone.

I can't say the same about his "agents" however.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:00 AM

I hope I've made my pov clear above.

But it does cast a sidelight on "Does Folk need professionals", doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM

Punters have a right to know if they are likely to have an embarrassing or unpleasant night for their £17.50. If they then choose to take a chance that the artist might have a good night, or they simply want to go along to be supportive, that's their choice. But it's an informed one.

Venues also have a right to know if an artist is regularly turning up to gigs incapable of delivering a performance. It happens from time to time that a band turns up and is pissed, of course - we had one at our festval last year. Nothing was said at the time, but I won't re-book them and if other promoters were to ask me about the band, I'd feel duty-bound to reveal that information.

In any other profession, if you turn up pissed for work you'd get sent home, and possibly sacked. Musicians get away with it because the alternative for the venue is to cancel a gig at short notice, thereby pissing off a large number of people.

I'm not trying to be unsympathetic to Davy Graham, because it seems clear he's being exploited. But so are the audiences and the venues who have booked him.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM

If I had been the organiser I would have been repaying admission fees and witholding certain outgoings

Was that at the Huntingdon Hall!? I'ld be surprised if it were but then its the prime venue and maybe it does have a sepaparate bar!


Ask fer a refund and if it was a Chris Jaeger promotion let him know how deeply dissappointed you were, I know of some organisers who would have stopped the show early or not let him appear

It should be in the contract, and they do have em

its an image that has changed with the years

I stick to Tea and coffee

As an organiser I booked one artiste and was warned about his drinking

I was lucky , he could hold it, but he was lucky , he had a 'dry' mate

Now Cyril Tawney he was in a league of his own.


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM

Gatehead tonight, Salford tomorrow and High ! Wycombe on Wednesday

Yes it was at Huntingdon you saw him


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Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

I just feel sorry for the man, but i don't feel sorry for these people that walk out on him and then turn on him and his agents these people are just two faced that's all, they would stab you in the back some of them.

As I said I have NEVER seen Davy Graham live, but I would love to go and then make up my own mind about the guy, as I said my brother who is out in Australia is going through rehab to dry out, and I hear that he's down well, but that doesn't mean that Davy graham is like that, as I say I don't what it was like when you saw him, but as i said just leave the man alone, as we all have our problems don't we and we just don't som people to know about them.

however that's up to you.


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