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Electronic tuners

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Rapparee 03 Oct 07 - 09:54 PM
Big Mick 03 Oct 07 - 10:06 PM
maeve 03 Oct 07 - 10:53 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 07 - 12:33 AM
GUEST,Arnie at work 04 Oct 07 - 01:35 AM
Big Mick 04 Oct 07 - 01:45 AM
mandotim 04 Oct 07 - 03:34 AM
Grab 04 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM
EuGene 04 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Big Mick 04 Oct 07 - 09:38 AM
redsnapper 04 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM
JedMarum 04 Oct 07 - 10:03 AM
Leadfingers 04 Oct 07 - 10:16 AM
Rapparee 04 Oct 07 - 10:31 AM
JedMarum 04 Oct 07 - 10:41 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Oct 07 - 11:48 AM
Big Mick 04 Oct 07 - 12:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Oct 07 - 01:58 PM
Big Mick 04 Oct 07 - 02:01 PM
M.Ted 05 Oct 07 - 12:40 AM
Geoff the Duck 05 Oct 07 - 04:49 AM
Geoff the Duck 05 Oct 07 - 04:52 AM
Stu 05 Oct 07 - 05:11 AM
redsnapper 05 Oct 07 - 05:21 AM
Rapparee 05 Oct 07 - 09:01 AM
Stu 05 Oct 07 - 09:45 AM
EuGene 05 Oct 07 - 09:58 AM
Grab 05 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,TIA 06 Oct 07 - 09:31 AM
Geoff the Duck 06 Oct 07 - 10:17 AM
8_Pints 10 Dec 07 - 09:50 AM
8_Pints 10 Dec 07 - 10:15 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM
JohnInKansas 10 Dec 07 - 01:17 PM
Tootler 10 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Dec 07 - 06:49 PM
8_Pints 10 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Dec 07 - 07:48 PM
JohnInKansas 10 Dec 07 - 11:04 PM
Fidjit 11 Dec 07 - 09:19 AM
JohnInKansas 11 Dec 07 - 02:57 PM
Seamus Kennedy 11 Dec 07 - 04:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Dec 07 - 04:40 PM
Fidjit 11 Dec 07 - 04:50 PM
Rowan 11 Dec 07 - 04:58 PM
Tootler 11 Dec 07 - 05:13 PM
Stringsinger 12 Dec 07 - 05:20 PM
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Subject: Electronic tuners
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 09:54 PM

Okay. I've got hearing problems -- tinnitus and a loss of hearing above about 6000 Hz -- and I haven't been playing my trumpet because I can't hear if it's in tune or not.

I'm going to buy an electronic tuner. One of those things where you play a note and a needle or something indicates whether or not you're in tune.

Any suggestions? Please remember that I'm not made of money....


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 10:06 PM

Intellitouch CP2 for trumpets. Best in the biz in my opinion.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: maeve
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 10:53 PM

Ask and ye shall receive! That is an amazing response time from question to answer.

maeve


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 12:33 AM

Over the years, I developed a bit of a reputation as a real hard-nose about tuning to concert pitch. There were a couple of reasons for this. My rationalization was that I used some pretty pricy European made classic guitars, and a well-made classic guitar doesn't really like to be cranked up and down; it much prefers to be tuned to the pitch for which it was built (concert, A=440), and kept there. It doesn't mind the 6th string being tuned down to D from time to time, but since it's fairly lightly braced and the soundboard is relatively thin, cranking it up and down just ain't good for it. It isn't braced with steel I-beams like some steel-string guitars.

But the main reason is that in a fairly noisy room, with conversation going on and other people tuning up at the same time, I have one helluva time hearing my own guitar accurately. So I got me one of these clip-on jobbers—

Beeyouteeful!

—and I love it! I just clip it to the headstock of the guitar, it senses the vibration from the guitar directly, and tells you what you want to know. It tells you what note you're playing, so you can crank the tuning peg up or down to where it's supposed to be, and once you get to the note you want, there are li'l angle-brackets on both sides of the letter. If it says "<<< A >> ," then you a smidgen flat. When there are three angle-brackets on both sides of the letter ("<<< A >>>"), then you right on.

And they can be tango dancing, hog-calling, playing accordions, and yodeling in the same room, and the Intellitouch tuner doesn't care, because it isn't listening, it's feeling what note the guitar (or whatever instrument) is playing.

$50 bucks may be a bit pricy compared to some, but I think it's really worth it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: GUEST,Arnie at work
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 01:35 AM

Don - I bought an Intelli tuner last month on a friend's recommendation and it only cost me £12.99 (USD26)- must be cheaper over here for some reason. What I like about it is that the screen lights up red when the string's out of tune and green when it's in tune, as well as having the little brackets on either side of the note that you describe. This colour-change screen is handy for short-sighted types like me who refuse to wear their specs at the folk club!

Rapaire - not sure if these Intelli tuners work with a trumpet - I suspect they're for strings only.

Arnie


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 01:45 AM

If you folks would read the posts before yours, you would see that I recommended Intelli right out of the gate. And the one I recommended is the one made for trumpets. Sheesh.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 03:34 AM

Intelli and Intellitouch tuners are two different companies. I have one of each; the Intellitouch is good but expensive, designed and made in the USA; the Intelli is every bit as good, cheap and made in the Far East; go figure. Both work on wind instruments; my wife uses them on flute and sax.
Tim


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Grab
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM

I've got an Intellitouch (bought for me as a present, when I'd actually asked for an Intelli). I don't like it at all. It tunes OK, but the "three arrows" thing is a bit crap so you're never quite sure how accurate it is - in particular, it's no help at all for handling the normal guitar situation of the string starting sharp and going flatter as the note decays - and the whole thing is rather clunky. It's a 10-year-old design from a startup company, and it shows - as far as I can tell, it must have been designed to a serious budget when the company couldn't afford a decent case or a better LCD display, and they've never bothered revamping it. If you want a clip-on tuner, the Intelli IMT500 is a third of the price, has a proper digital needle display showing cents, and is a quarter of the size so it can be permanently clipped to the back of the headstock during a performance for easy tuning between songs.

Intelli tuner for comparison against the Intellitouch in Don's link.

I've no idea whether the Intelli can handle a trumpet, but if the Intellitouch can then I'd guess the Intelli can as well.

If you particularly want a tuner that uses a mic instead of one of the clip-on jobs, then still I think you can't beat the old Korg CA30. Dirt cheap, tunes accurately, shows cents with a needle, also shows sharp/flat/tuned with LEDs for tuning in the dark, jack input, and batteries last forever because there's no backlight eating power.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: EuGene
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM

I have been trying all types of tuners, including the clip-on "vibration feeler" types to tune timpanis and none of them seems able to detect the note being played.

I have tinnitis, as well as low frequency hearing loss (due to 12 years in the Army Field Artillery), and need to use a tuner as I can't hear the timps well enough to retune them while the band is playing.

For those not familiar with timpani playing, it is quite normal to have to tune the drums to different notes at various places within a piece of music. Since these retunings must take place quickly during a short timpani rest period (usually only a few measures) while the rest of the band is blaring away, one needs either a good ear or a tuner. I don't have the ear, so I need to find a tuner that will work for me.

Any suggestions?

Eu


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 09:38 AM

****sitting here with egg on my face****

Sorry about that, folks. That's what I get for posting late when I should be sleeping.

I didn't know that these were two different tuners. I use Intellitouch, and have been happy with it for the most part. I believe I will give the Intelli a try.

Thanks for correcting me and I apologize for the grumpiness earlier.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: redsnapper
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM

I've used both and prefer the Intelli (the cheaper one) for accuracy. Also cheaper to replace when they go walkabouts (which they inevitably do).

RS


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:03 AM

I use the BOSS in-line tuner. All the ones you can buy are pretty good, after all the task of tuning isn't more then math to an electronic device.

The BOSS tuner is made to last. I have two - I use them almost daily and have done so for 4 years plus. They take the wear and tear very well.

The in-line approach means it gets a good strong signal from yuor pick up and is never "confused" by other room noise or just too weak a signal. It also means that when you turn on the tuner, you kill the signal to the console/mixer/amp so no one else has to listen to you tuning.

I set mine to chromatic display, because I use multiple tunings. The box is very accurate. More importantly, you know where concert pitch is for any given note under the noisiest stage conditions.

I never thought I'd use an electronic tuner. My pitch is perfect and I have man years of practice - BUT the stage environment is different. You have overtones, noise and distractions. You don;t have time to listen and concentrate of pitch. Even the best of guitars have slight pitch issues, as you capo ... etc - so a tuner is a very quick way to solve the tuning issues in a less then perfect environment.

When I go into a session, large or small - I always tune to perfect concert pitch before I start. It is true that many times the group pitch is off, in those circumstances ... but I find that if I know where I am at the start I can "sweeten" to the room pitch, straying from concert pitch as little as necessary - and help improve the overall pitch (pull them in the right direction, sort of thing).

Tuners are good things!


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:16 AM

Intellitouch AND Intelli both seem pretty good to me ! And the clip on bit works a treat - My Intellitouch clips on to a whistle to check the tuning , so it will be fine on a trumpet !


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:31 AM

Ya see, the last time I used an electronic tuner was in high school. It was essentially an oscilloscope with a microphone and used...tubes. The last time I tuned was in 1995 and it's probably about time, given that we've moved twice since them and God alone knows what the poor old trumpet has been through!

I'll see what I can find right here (I'm currently in Denver and there are a few instrument shops around) and probably bring it back with me. At the very least I can see how they work.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:41 AM

ooopss ... sorry I missed the trumpet comment at the start of this discussion!


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 11:48 AM

You can get intelli copies off ebay for about 7 or 8 units of currency (pounds in the UK, dollars in teh USA)


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 12:55 PM

After reading my brother Jed's post, I should point out that I use Intellitouch in session settings, but I always use my Boss in lines onstage for all the same reasons that Jed does. I have three of them set up for the stringed instruments I use (6,12 guitars and a bouzouki). In the stage environment it is crucial to be able to tune quickly and accurately. I also use a Boss tuner on my Uilleann pipes when I am tweaking them. Hard to beat them.

But for the situation that is being asked for here, I believe the clip on would be best.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 01:58 PM

People sometimes worry that using an electronic tuner will mean they lose the ability to tune up without it. If anything I think it makes you better at recognising when you aren't in tune, so you can tune up more easily than before, if you haven't got the tuner to hand.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 02:01 PM

Spot on, Kevin. I never used to be able to get close but since I have been using a tuner, my ear has learned to distinguish what the notes are supposed to sound like. I wouldn't say I am anywhere near perfect pitch, but I can get it a damn site closer than I ever used to. Tuners, like capo's, are a good thing.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 12:40 AM

Just to clear things up for Arnie at work, £12.99 is now USD26--actually closer to 26.50--the mighty dollar has fallen!


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 04:49 AM

One question to ask when looking at the clip-on type tuners is what you will need to tune. Is it just for one specific instrument, or will you also want to use it on something which is a completely different shape?
The Intellitouch obviously comes in a variety of specifications. The guitar tuner has a clamp which is designed to clip to a guitar headstock. The trumpet version attaches to a trumpet. Would you be able to clip a trumpet one onto a passing guitar?
Leadfingers clips a guitar one onto tin whistles so ther is some flexibility.
I have an Intelli, which is fine on some insruments, but when trying to tune an autoharp, the ony place I could actually clip it was one of the tuning pegs. Mrs Duck bought an ENO ET3000 (< a href="http://www.eno-music.com">http://www.eno-music.com), which has jaws which open wide enough to clip to the body of the autoharp.
The ENO also has a built in microphone, so you can even find a note for your voice. The Intelly has a function where you can "capo" it. By that I mean, put a capo on a guitar, and you can change the scale on the tuner so it reads as if you are tuning an uncapoed instrument.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 04:52 AM

tHE LINK SHOULD HAVE READ :-
(http://www.eno-music.com),


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 05:11 AM

I find the Intelli doesn't work well on the lower G and D strings on my bouzouki, but the Intellitouch did. It might be where I'm placing it on the head but I've tried shifting it about to no avail.

Pricessless in a noisy pub though - and you can tune quietly if you don't wish to disturb others.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: redsnapper
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 05:21 AM

If the Intelli is recalcitrant on open low strings it can often be caused to spring into action by first playing the octave harmonic and then the low note. At least it does on my OM and DADGAD guitar.

RS


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 09:01 AM

I ordered an Intellitouch CP2 yesterday. It works on strings as well as trumpets (the instrument of the gods), according to the manufacturer.

Now we'll see...and I want to thank everyone. As I said, the last eletronic tuner I used had tubes!


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 09:45 AM

Cheers Redsnapper. I'll try that when I find out what an octave harmonic is!


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: EuGene
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 09:58 AM

Stigweard: I guess my problem with using the tuners with timps is that difficulty in reading low notes which you experienced with the Intelli. I wonder if our tuba guys know of a tuner that works well in the basement? I'll check with them at our next practice session (tomorrow). Eu


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Grab
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM

Re recalcitrant strings, that's exactly what I find with my Intellitouch, RS. Even then though, the low strings don't always play ball - I usually have to tune A-E and then tune the bottom E from the A. And it's *very* unhelpful when you try to tune a bass with it - octave harmonics (or even second-octave harmonics) are the only way to do it.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 09:31 AM

...when they go walkabouts (which they inevitably do)...

OMG. They do it more than socks!

Somewhere, there is a hidden universe full of single socks and electronic tuners.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 10:17 AM

It's a balancing force in the Universe!
It ensures that the lost socks "hum" in harmony...
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: 8_Pints
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:50 AM

I have just bought a SoundLab Tuner G027FA for the wife's violin.

This seems to be fine for Equal Temperament tuning but I can't figure how to get it to change the reference settings for Just Intonation.

Violin string tuning to play with:

Scottish Small Pipes (A=440 Hz) Northumbrian Small Pipes (F=353.38 Hz)
   4G    198   Hz                           176.69 Hz
   3D    293.33Hz                         294.48 Hz
   2A    440   Hz                           441.73 Hz
   1E    660   Hz                           662.59 Hz

There doesn't appear any easy way of storing these reference frequencies for quick tuning changes.

Any suggestions on how to resolve the problem?

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: 8_Pints
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 10:15 AM

Oops!

Correction: that should have read -

Violin string tuning to play with:

Scottish Small Pipes (A=440 Hz) Northumbrian Small Pipes (F=353.38 Hz)
   4G    198   Hz                           198.78 Hz
   3D    293.33Hz                         294.48 Hz
   2A    440   Hz                           441.73 Hz
   1E    660   Hz                           662.59 Hz

There doesn't appear any easy way of storing these reference frequencies for quick tuning changes.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM

There've been numerous discussions on the Intelli vs Intellitouch tuner issue on various guitar weenie forums and the general consensus is that one works as well as the other. The main difference is that Intelli is cheap and has no warranty, whereas Intellitouch is more expensive but has a great warranty. If your Intellitouch ever breaks, just send it back to 'em and they'll either fix it or replace it, no questions asked. If your Intelli breaks, toss it in the trash and go buy another one.

Personally, I would never buy an Intelli tuner because I think their decision to market their tuners under a name so similar to that of the leading company selling the same type product is unethical. It may not technically violate trademark laws, but it's plainly an attempt to pin their product onto the coattails of someone else's success. It's like an automoble manufacturer calling itself "Toyola".


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 01:17 PM

It's like an automoble manufacturer calling itself "Toyola".

The original name was "Toyoda," but the numerologists made them change it due to a conflict with the introduction date.

There are lots of different tuners for all kinds of uses. The Intellitouch is very popular with guitarists because there are lots of places you can clip it on, and since it waves about in everyone's face, it makes everyone think that you actually have tuned.

It's less useful on some other instruments, where there aren't handy places to clip it - where it's not in the way for the tuning if not during play.

Since it senses body vibrations of the instrument it may be "misleading" on some instruments, since it's the air frequency you want in tune, and some instruments may have "odd wiggles" in parts you might clip to that are not necessarily the same as the oompah coming out the end.

A problem with tuners that use a built-in mic to pickup the sound is that many have fairly insensitive mics, and in ambient noise a guitar may not be "loud enough" during "discreet" tuning to pick it up accurately, or to separate it from ambient noise. People often "solve" this problem with a clip-on pickup (<$10 US) plugged into the tuner. It shouldn't be a problem with most wind instruments.

Most tuners with internal mics have an input jack, and usually an output jack, so you can use them with a separate pickup or inline with a preamp/amp setup.

Better grades of tuners allow you to select "rapid" or "averaged" response, for the guitar string that starts a bit higher than it decays. Most cheaper ones simply "latch" to the first few cycles the tuner "hears" and hold that indicated pitch for a while, before moving on to follow the note when set to the "average" or "slow" response.

The only real problem you need to watch out for with a trumpet is that some "cheap guitar tuners" (and even some violin tuners) indicate only the few "string notes" and don't show a full chromatic range. I would expect that you'd prefer a full-range full-chromatic tuner with trumpet.

John


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

8 pints,

My tuner is a Seiko chromatic tuner which will automatically detect the note being played and the octave (though the octave is not displayed). There is also a little dial which has a range of -50 cents to +50 cents. To tune to equal temperament (ET) you get the pointer on the dial to zero. If you want to tune to other temperaments, you need to find out how many cents sharp or flat relative to ET you need to tune.

Assuming your tuner is similar, you need to tune your fiddle strings as follows (all figures relative to equal temperament);

Scottish Small Pipes (A=440 Hz)

   4G    198    Hz 18 cents sharp
   3D    293.33 Hz 2 cents flat
   2A    440    Hz 0
   1E    660    Hz 2 cents sharp


Northumbrian Small Pipes (F=353.38 Hz)

   4G    198.78 Hz   4 cents sharp
   3D    294.48 Hz 16 cents flat
   2A    441.73 Hz 14 cents flat
   1E    662.59 Hz 12 cents flat


If you want the formula to work this out, PM me.

In practice, most people are will probably not notice to +/- 5 cents, but there are a few with very fine perception who can detect very small differences in tuning. On my tuner the precision on the "dial" (it is generated on an LCD screen) is no better than +/- 5 cents so you really need to use your ear for the final fine tuning.

At the end of the day, your ear must be the judge.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 06:49 PM

Great little Christmas presents...


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: 8_Pints
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 07:16 PM

Brilliant Tootler!

Thanks for the advice.

And yes, McGrath of Harlow, I quite agree!

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 07:48 PM

Remember, even if the string player in your life already has a tuner, another (or yet another) is always handy - especially one of the little ones you can just leave more or less permanently on an instrument which is a bit temperamental in the tuning.


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 11:04 PM

Tootler -

Check out:

Korg Tuners

If you like the OT-120 you'll find that you don't need "cents off" corrections - just set it for any of 8 different "temperaments."

Ideal for the trumpet player too, since it can be set to any key.

The LCA-120 has similar features - maybe even a few more.

Unfortunately, I can't actually recommend either of these, since they're both so far out of my price range that I've never actually had one in hand to check it out. I just happened to have a bookmark on the Korg index site.

John


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Fidjit
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 09:19 AM

Tuning problems here is the answer

Chas


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:57 PM

Fidjit must mean there isn't an answer, since I can't seem to get to an end of the link given?????

John


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 04:33 PM

Tuning - what is this tuning business?
My guitar was in tune when it left the factory.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 04:40 PM

Wouldn't it be great if we could have a tuner for the voice. And a capo...


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Fidjit
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 04:50 PM

Oh it's there. It even helps you put on aa new string and tune it !!

Chas


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 04:58 PM

Kevin, while I haven't yet seen a tuner that can micro-adjust the tensions on separate vocal chords, I'm led to believe a quick twist to the underdungas acts as an effective capo on most adult males.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:13 PM

Unfortunately, I can't actually recommend either of these, since they're both so far out of my price range...

My problem exactly. My Seiko is a bit like the CA30 and is all I really need, since I simply use it position my flute headjoint for A. Once that is set, everything else is down to the internal intonation of the instrument, though I usually check it anyway.

Fidjit, your suggestion is no use to we non guitarists :-)


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Subject: RE: Electronic tuners
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 05:20 PM

i looked at the Gibson Robot devices. It's faster to tune the guitar by ear than to follow the directions.

Or use a plug-in tuner with a 1/4 " jack if you have electricity.

Those who play acoustics have to use a tuner or tune by ear.

Now, what's needed is a Robot Device to play the instrument. This would be useful
for most of the rock music you hear these days.

Frank Hamilton


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