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BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia

dick greenhaus 01 Oct 07 - 02:28 PM
Teribus 27 Sep 07 - 01:54 PM
bobad 27 Sep 07 - 12:56 PM
Peace 27 Sep 07 - 12:52 PM
Peace 27 Sep 07 - 12:38 PM
Riginslinger 27 Sep 07 - 12:22 PM
Peace 27 Sep 07 - 11:56 AM
3refs 27 Sep 07 - 11:25 AM
Peace 27 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 27 Sep 07 - 10:58 AM
Peace 27 Sep 07 - 10:51 AM
Stilly River Sage 27 Sep 07 - 10:37 AM
Peace 27 Sep 07 - 10:31 AM
greg stephens 27 Sep 07 - 08:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 07 - 07:56 AM
Wolfgang 27 Sep 07 - 07:45 AM
Mr Happy 27 Sep 07 - 07:16 AM
mg 26 Sep 07 - 11:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Sep 07 - 11:51 PM
number 6 26 Sep 07 - 11:26 PM
Riginslinger 26 Sep 07 - 11:21 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Sep 07 - 11:01 PM
number 6 26 Sep 07 - 10:53 PM
Peace 26 Sep 07 - 10:21 PM
Bobert 26 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM
Ron Davies 26 Sep 07 - 08:33 PM
Bobert 26 Sep 07 - 08:15 PM
number 6 26 Sep 07 - 07:53 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Sep 07 - 07:15 PM
Mike Miller 26 Sep 07 - 07:07 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 06:46 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Sep 07 - 06:24 PM
bobad 26 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Pest 26 Sep 07 - 05:35 PM
Peace 26 Sep 07 - 05:25 PM
Teribus 26 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 04:46 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 04:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Sep 07 - 04:39 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Sep 07 - 04:32 PM
Peace 26 Sep 07 - 04:20 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 04:10 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 04:06 PM
pdq 26 Sep 07 - 03:51 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 03:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Sep 07 - 03:31 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 03:22 PM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 07 - 03:17 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:28 PM

"I would have thought that my friend, Mr. Greenhaus, would have been more aware of the realities of protest. In today's atmosphere of antipathy, even the most apathetic will react to personal threat. (That is the real reason The US got into this war and the reason why so many approved. For the first time, we were threatened by acts of terror. We were mad, scared and determined to fight. Say what you will, it was that very real threat that got GWB reelected)
But some of us feel more threatened than others. Jews have recent memories of massacres and freindly indifference. To a Jew, a national leader who rails against Jews, denies or discounts the Nazi Holocost, and openly supports Hammas, is a very real threat. I, personally, don't want anyone silenced but I can, well, understand why many would. It is like Lester Maddox being invited to speak at Grambling. I imagine the students might make their displeasure known to one and all. So, although I agree that everyone has, or shoud have the right to free speech, I find the scolding of those who protested out of realistic fear, have been given a bad rap by this forum."

I have no argument with those who feel threatened, and/or wish to express displeasure or protest or outrage, but those folks have no right to prevent others from hearing that which displeases them. If Columbia thought fit to invite Ahmadinejad to speak, they had a responsibility to make sure that he could speak; having a imbecilic university president attack him before he spoke was not only abysmal manners, but made Ahmadinejad look better than hi might have by comparison.

One function of a University should be to teach students the basics of civilized behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 01:54 PM

Hey SRS have a look at what today is as an anniversary for the great leader of the "Palestinian" people:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/27/newsid_4579000/4579685.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: bobad
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:56 PM

3refs, I believe that should read "Il lance, il compte" - he throws (shoots) the puck, he counts (a point) scores.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:52 PM

So, how long will Iran keep up the 'maskirova' for?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:38 PM

I think Ahmadinejad is a stupid man on the order of George Bush stupid. That is, brigher than yer average turnip, but not by much. It's a good thing he has no real power. W'all best get thinking about those who DO call the shots in Iran. And it ain't him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:22 PM

Bollinger lost all credibility when he called Ahmadinejad a "penis-spud."


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 11:56 AM

"Iran: Two More Executions for Homosexual Conduct
(New York, November 22, 2005) – Iran's execution of two men last week for homosexual conduct highlights a pattern of persecution of gay men that stands in stark violation of the rights to life and privacy, Human Rights Watch said today. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: 3refs
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 11:25 AM

He shoots! He scores! Words made famous here in Canada, The United States and Newfoundland by Foster Hewitt during his Hockey Night in Canada broadcasts, translates to, "Il tire ! Il marque!" in French !
Now, translate "Il tire ! Il marque!" back into English and you get "It draws! It marks!
Now most Canadians, who listen to French broadcasts, know that we usually here "Il lance, il count!" which translates to "It launches, it count!". Sometimes we hear "La but!"(le?)which is "The Goal". Of course there are many different versions of scoring a goal in both English and French.
My point being, sometimes things get lost in the translation. I'm not sure just exactly what Ahmadinejad meant with his reference to "Homosexuals". Is it possible that what he intended to say, could he do it in English, was that "yes we have homosexuals, but they don't enjoy the same kind of freedoms as those in western country's!".


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM

We had that with quarters here. They did a 'collection' that had one for each Province and Territory and I think one for Ottawa, making 14 in all. I wasn't aware of the States collection, SRS.

When's the last time you were up?

(Sorry for the thread drift here, but despite my disagreement with SRS's views to do with Israel, she's a smart lady and a nice one, too.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:58 AM

Good read--I should have clarified "cash" when I posted. Bruce, last time I was in Canada I found some Canadians where more interested in the U.S. coins--those collectible quarters in particular. I ended up going through my coin purse a couple of times for folks who were looking for particular states. :)

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:51 AM

People can do that in Canada, too. Use American currency at a 'fair' exchange rate that is. The bills seldom stay in circulation long, but there's no problem having the money accepted at most stores. (Large bills are usually refused because of counterfeits, but smallre denominations are taken with no problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:37 AM

What I am stating, Wolfgang, is what I was aware of a number of years ago. Perhaps this has changed. Why don't you post more than a snippet by way of correction, you visit the travel site and offer the explanation? I have a friend who travels to Israel every couple of years, and she has no difficulty shopping with U.S. dollars.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:31 AM

Truer words . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 08:27 AM

The poor man is getting a lot of stick for saying there aren't any gays in Iran Foir heaven's sake, cut the chap a bit of slack. He's doing his best to achieve this target.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 07:56 AM

Mr. Happy,
The official Iranian news agency gave the same quote.
Khofi Anan, with the benefit of the UN translation unit, gave the same quote.
Ahmadinejad has refused to deny or withdraw the quote.
See links in my previous posts.
thread.cfm?threadid=104986&messages=166&page=2&desc=yes#2157575


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 07:45 AM

you'll find that in actuality there are a lot, if not mostly, U.S. dollars in regular use as well. (Stilly River Sage, emphasis mine)

Why are you defending a wrong statement of fact with new nonsense instead of simply admitting an error in a minor detail?

I recommend a look at a site with travel tips for Israel (U.S. dollars in cash are accepted at a limited number of shops you'll find for instance). And even if the information was true what would it mean? Sites with travel tips for Iran state that US dollar is accepted as cash nearly everywhere in Iran. Do we learn anything from that? No.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 07:16 AM

number 6,

Yourself and a significant number of other respondents here seem to be convinced that 'Ahmadinejad's solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel,.... '

I really can't comprehend why you persist in the belief that the 'translation' promulgated by the New York Times was true.

Here's some more correct information about what Ahmadinejad really said about Israel: [as posted above by McGrath]

Lost in translation.

Experts confirm that Iran's president did not call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'. Reports that he did serve to strengthen western hawks.

Jonathan Steele

June 14, 2006 12:49 PM


My recent comment piece explaining how Iran's president was badly misquoted when he allegedly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" has caused a welcome little storm. The phrase has been seized on by western and Israeli hawks to re-double suspicions of the Iranian government's intentions, so it is important to get the truth of what he really said.



I took my translation - "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" - from the indefatigable Professor Juan Cole's website where it has been for several weeks.

But it seems to be mainly thanks to the Guardian giving it prominence that the New York Times, which was one of the first papers to misquote Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, came out on Sunday with a defensive piece attempting to justify its reporter's original "wiped off the map" translation. (By the way, for Farsi speakers the original version is available here.)

More here:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_steele/2006/06/post_155.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:52 PM

I don't think Paris Hilton is too late at all to go to Rhwanda. I am sure there little micropools of misery still left there, and just by going she will have photographers going there too...

And you can wave magic wands and say presto here is a state for some oppressed people, but oh dear, there are already people living there, in houses they consider theirs, tending goats they consider theirs, raising oranges and olives they consider theirs. How inconsiderate of them not to just vacate. I would have sooner given them a large chunk of Austria and Germany..people there too, mostly innocent, but closer to the problem. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:51 PM

Selective facts, like selective statistics, yield the answer one wishes.
This stuff has been gone over before. I am sorry I posted and should have known better. I have bitten before in other threads. I have quoted the usual references, Britannica and Middle Eastern studies, etc., etc.; a waste of my time. There is no way a zionist, or a Hamas supporter, can be persuaded to discuss matters intelligently (particularly the former).

Authors of a new book, John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, "The Israel Lobby and U. S. Foreign Policy," contend that the Jewish lobby jeopardizes the national security of the United States. An extensive review by Leslie H. Gelb appears in The New York Times Book Review, September 23, 2007.
Professors at Chicago and Harvard, resp., they say that U. S. policy is so lopsidedly pro-Israel that it fuels Muslim terrorism against the United States.
Named as especially virulent lobbyists are the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, The Anti-Defamation League and the publisher Mortimer Zuckerman.
The book is published by Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 484 pp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: number 6
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:26 PM

Well ... Ahmadinejad's solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel,.... getting back (in some ways) to the subject of this thread.

If I lived in Israel I would be kinda concerned (whatever stand I take regarding the Palestinians)with statements coming from a guy like him.

And Bush, your president, wants Arabian the oil and is willing to sacrifice the lives of Americans, but also the citizens of of the mideast to get it all under the guize of security.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:21 PM

At the end of the day, they'll probably never be an end to it until rational thinking people rise up and stamp out the scourge of religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:01 PM

Thanks, Bobert.

Mike Miller wrote I promised myself noy to try to conduct a dialogue with the cadre of closet Jew baiters who infect this forum. There is not, nor will there be, a cogent discussion on matters concerning the Jewish state.
Frankly, I have had true discussions with Palastians and pro-Palastinian Israelis but I have never had a real discussion with a anti-Israeli non Semite.


There's nothing like a good logical fallacy to shut down a political discussion, eh? Poison the well--suggest that a person who says anything negative about Israel must be an anti-Semite, so everything they say about Israel is false or uninformed. Dubya used this trick after Sept. 11. Anyone who opposed his rush to war must not be a patriot, so people who objected to his disastrous response kept their mouths closed so they wouldn't be barred from the conversation later by the rancor of knee-jerk conservatives.

It's time people learned to separate the Jewish faith from the Jewish state. Set aside the corrosive wellspring of collective guilt over somehow not doing enough to prevent the Nazi death camps, set aside the hyperbolic romantic ideals of freedom fighters in the deserts of the Middle East from a Leon Uris novel. Look at the lives being lived in the region--yes, it is a set of politically manufactured states. The British were good at taking places apart and rearranging them. Look at India, Pakistan, Iraq, and Iran. Lumping and sorting that led to massive bloodshed, boundaries established because a minor functionary in London had a handy straight edge when he was drawing the map of new nations for people he didn't understand or never saw.

The Israelis aren't responsible for the great disarray in the Arab world--infighting and factions have taken their toll. The Israelis are, however, guilty of frequently walking into that powder keg with a lighted match.

Edward Said wrote in 2002:

    Arabs have for so long been deprived of a sense of participation and citizenship by their rulers that most of us have lost even the capacity of understanding what personal commitment to a cause bigger than ourselves might mean. The Palestinian struggle -- that a people should endure such unremitting cruelty from Israel and still not give up, is a collective miracle -- but why can't the lessons of living (as opposed to suicidal, nihilistic) resistance be made clearer, and more possible to follow? This is the real problem, the absence all over the Arab world and abroad of a leadership that communicates with its people, not via communiqués that express an impersonal, almost disdainful disregard of them as citizens, but through the actual practice of concerted dedication and personal example. Unable to move the US from its illegal support of Israel's crimes, Arab leaders simply throw out one "peace" proposal (the same one) after another, each of which is dismissed derisively by both Israel and the US. Bush and his psychopathic henchman Rumsfeld keep leaking news of their impending invasion for "regime change" in Iraq, and the Arabs have still not communicated a unified deterrent position against this new American insanity. When individuals and organisations like ADC try to do something on behalf of a cause they are gunned down by troublemakers who have little else to do but destroy and disturb.

    Surely the time has come to start thinking of ourselves as a people with a common history and goals, and not as a collection of cowardly delinquents. But that is up to each one, and it's no good sitting back blaming "the Arabs" since, after all, we are the Arabs.


SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: number 6
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:53 PM

Back to the subject of this thread ... Ahmadinejad can talk all he wants. So can Bush ... personally, I'm getting tired, and disgusted of their lies, threats and "sophisticated propaganda", PR or whatever you want to call it. I'm not buying any of their rhetoric. Period.

How can anyone justify one over the other?

Anyway ... that's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:21 PM

GUEST, Pest: You are the reason some mammals eat their young.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM

Facts, Ron???

We ain't gonna get none... What we are gettin' is just more sophisticated propaganda... Had it none been for all the ***lies*** that Bush got caught in in gettin' US into Iraqmire then they wouldn't have to work the PR folks so hard now... Your tax dollars at work, you know...

S.S.D.D....

And the beat goes on...

Right now the PR folks are waiting for anything right to happen within the Bush administration so they can use that as a jumping off point to sell the American people on a new 'n shiney war....

Reminds me of an ol' Jethro Tull song entitled "New Day Yesterday"...

"It was a new war yesterday
it's an old war now..."

Well, my own thoughts are that the Bush asministration will do nuthin' right between now and when he is retreats to Crawford so I think the PR folks have a long row-to-hoe if they think they can sell a 3rd war while the US isn't really doing well in the other two Bush wars but what scares me is that Bush and his cronies have corraled so much power that they might just invade Irabn without any Congressionl authority....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:33 PM

pdq--


"Facts trump opinions every time". Very observant.

"Problem is, by the time he (Ahmadinejad) leaves the office (sic), Iran will have nuclear weapons." Now, what makes that a fact? Source please.

The next Iranian election is scheduled for June 2009. Less than 2 years from now. Fact.

Unless Ahmadinejad is forced to step down before that, due to Iranian discontent. Unions and students, among others, have already shown unhappiness with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:15 PM

SRS,

Well, sheet fire, girl... You got T-zer all lathered up and BB back to SCREAMING, as if that makes him right (???)...

You go, girl...

BTW, as for what you have said being the "dumbest" thing that T has ever read I'd refer him back to his own dumb arguments during the mad-dash-to-Iraq that were so ill thought out that it now has the US and the UK back on its heels in just about every respect...

Yet t will be more than happy to recite his liteny or UN Resolutions, as if they actually have any relevence to a decision that George Bush made even before 9/11???

Go figure???

Dumbest??? LOL, T... Thank Goodness that you dumb stuff is archived... You can run but you cannot hide...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: number 6
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 07:53 PM

"Now they have a country. Tough shit for anyone who doesn't like it. Now, nobody will fuck with them. And if that had been the history of your people you'd wanna be the toughest sonuvabitch on the block. Well, they are. AND THAT'S THAT."

Well said Peace.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 07:15 PM

Name calling, that's a strong suit of yours also, BB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Mike Miller
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 07:07 PM

I can't believe I got sucked into this chazerai (pig sty) again. I promised myself noy to try to conduct a dialogue with the cadre of closet Jew baiters who infect this forum. There is not, nor will there be, a cogent discussion on matters concerning the Jewish state.
Frankly, I have had true discussions with Palastians and pro-Palastinian Israelis but I have never had a real discussion with a anti-Israeli non Semite. Those people don't understand the situation, at all.
A Palastinian understands. He fights for his land. So, does the Israeli. Neither cares about the objective morality of his position.
It is the home of his fathers and his culture. It identifies him.
The kneejerk antipathy of the Moslem world, toward Israel, is based on culture, history, language and the deepest part of common faith.
The, equaly, knee jerk support, for Israel, from the West, is pretty much the same. It's a family thing.
But, what gets my goat is people, who have never been under the gun, stand a safe distance from involvement and take sides based on their own prejudices. Our home grown Rockwells say that theu are not anti-Jewish, they are anti-Zionists. I suspect they use Zionism the way some folks use "law and order". It never takes long before these Hamens appear. You should have heard them during the gas crunch in the 70's. Forunately, most Jews and Christians feel the affinity for the Jewish homeland with a zeal that matches the Moslem's.
I am not saying that the left is anti-Semitic. A lot of the sympathy that is shown to the Arabs is based on pity. A liberal, almost by definition, sides with the underdog. It doesn'y matter who they are or how they got there. They're downtrodden, we love 'em. Believe me, this hasn't been easy for liberal Jews. Our guts say "survive", our hearts pity the plight of the Palastinian. We have been trying to work out a compromise for sixty years.
Well, I'm never going to reach the hearts of some but, for what it's worth...

                         Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 06:46 PM

SRS,

"Read BB's stuff and you see shoddy sources and hair-brained conclusions"

That is very interesting, coming from a nasty piece like you who demanded that HER sources be always assumed correct, and ANY source that differed with her opinion was therefore false, without even bothering to look at it.

If uyou think my sources are shoddy, perhaps you need to look at them.

Encyclopaedia Britannica, for the last few. But I guess that would be too difficult for an academic genius to bother with.

My conclusions are based on the facts of record: YOURS seem to be based of whatever you want to believe at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM

BB is also good at moving the discussion way off course to suit his agenda.

He might be interested to know that Paris Hilton has decided to go to Rwanda to call attention to their needs. No one seems to have pointed out to her that she's a dozen years too late. Maybe this year's post DUI trip should be to Darfur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 06:24 PM

Re: the currency question. There may be an "official" currency, but I think you'll find that in actuality there are a lot, if not mostly, U.S. dollars in regular use as well.

Read through some of BB's posts you might just learn something.

Now that is a joke! Read BB's stuff and you see shoddy sources and hair-brained conclusions. But I can see why you consider him a good source.

As I said, I expressed an opinion. Israel has been the spoiled child who can do no wrong in the eyes of many U.S. politicians but is, in fact, a troublemaker who gets away with it because it has a big bully to hide behind.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM

Not brave enough to use your name eh, pest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: GUEST,Pest
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:35 PM

Then Peace clicked his heels three times and kept repeating "There's no place like Home" and the next thing he knew he woke up and THAT WAS THAT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:25 PM

One might also wish to research Jews in the USA who were forced from their homes during the Civil War. For many, the treatment was akin to that that Japanese Americans and Canadians got at the hands of their respective governments. The Jews lived with that for many many centuries. Now they have a country. Tough shit for anyone who doesn't like it. Now, nobody will fuck with them. And if that had been the history of your people you'd wanna be the toughest sonuvabitch on the block. Well, they are. AND THAT'S THAT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM

Still, without any shadow of a doubt the dumbest, most ill-informed load of twaddle I have ever read in my life, Stilly River Sage. I know that Stilly River is in Washington State, coming out with that crap the sage part of the name must refer to the plant.

Read through some of BB's posts you might just learn something.

"for example those Iraqi WMDs were opinion, not fact, but... And there is good reason to believe that the same may well be true of that Iranian nuclear weapon programme." - MGOH on facts trumping opinion.

Whether or not Iraq possessed WMD plus all the other things that the UNSCOM Inspectors were concerned with between 1991 and 1998 was subject to analytical evaluation by those inspection teams and their findings were reported to the United Nations Security Council in January 1999. What they suspected that Iraq still had was considered and informed opinion certainly, which most found highly likely. But what was fact Kevin, was that the inspection teams (UNSCOM & UNMOVIC) could not state with any degree of certainty that Iraq had destroyed all its WMD, agents, stockpiles, etc, etc.

It may well be true that Iran is not pursuing a programme to obtain nuclear weapons, that their programme is totally innocent and aimed at the peaceful generation of electricity. One can ignore the questions relating to why they kept their uranium enrichment facilities secret from the IAEA. Why they have gone for the type of centrifuges that enriches uranium to weapons grade as opposed to lower cheaper fuel grade. Having gone for that type of centrifuge why the number of them sufficient for rapid cascade enrichment.

If the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that his country does not seek nuclear weapons that must be totally credible. After all he has stated that women in Iran are the most liberated on earth and that there are no homosexuals in Iran - and we all know that those two statements are gospel truth - don't we Kevin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:46 PM

"The conference approved the final framework of a peace treaty with Turkey which was later signed at Sèvres, on Aug. 10, 1920. The Treaty of Sèvres abolished the Ottoman Empire, obliged Turkey to renounce all rights over Arab Asia and North Africa, and provided for an independent Armenia, for an autonomous Kurdistan, and for a Greek presence in eastern Thrace and on the Anatolian west coast, as well as Greek control over the Aegean islands commanding the Dardanelles. Rejected by the new Turkish nationalist regime, the Treaty of Sèvres was replaced in 1923 by the Treaty of Lausanne, which voided previous Allied demands for Kurdish autonomy and Armenian independence but did otherwise recognize Turkey's current boundaries. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:45 PM

Perhaps my wording should have been "This is when the genocide of the Armenians was defined by the British and French as acceptable treatment."


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:39 PM

Deploring the failure of the world to take proper notice of the Armenian holocaust, and to largely collude in a cover-up is perfectly valid, and it is fair to include the events round the Treaty of Lausanne in that - but to say "this was what allowed the genocide of Armenians" is in fact misleading.

It blurs the facts about the genocide, and that tends to help those who would deny it ever took place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:32 PM

SRS, without any shadow of a doubt the dumbest, most ill-informed load of twaddle I have ever read in my life. It damn near beggars description.

Teribus,

I'm so glad to hear you say so! I'd hate to think I said anything you agreed with. I am vindicated.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:20 PM

"The Holocaust has its roots in the pogroms of the 1880s onward-"


The attitude which some folks here echo--may they fart lumps--is older than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:10 PM

Q,

"Lebanon, once a bright light in the Middle East, has been disrupted by Israeli policies"

I think that perhaps Syria and Hezboallah had something to do with it, if one looks at the facts. Or would you be willing to accept constant mass-bombardment rocket attacks as acceptable ( to other than Jews, of course)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:06 PM

Q,

" towns like Ramallah "

My Christian Palestinian friends lived in Ramallah- UNTIL they were driven out by the Moslims... ( 1948- you know, when the Arab League tried to wipe out all the Jews and take over the Jewish Homeland?)

The Moslims quite effectively removed most of the Jews and Christians from the land THEY had control over- It was only the Jewish state that allowed others to live in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:51 PM

beardedbruce,

If you keep putting the truth out for people to see, you are doing the best you can.

Some will listen, some will not. Nothing more you can do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:41 PM

Q,

Try looking at what is posted...

"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland."


There is, and has been since 1923 a PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. NO Jews were allowed to settle there- UNLIKE Israel, which has a large Arab population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:31 PM

SRS, I agree. Going farther, I see no hope for a Palestinian nation.

From the outset, the object of the Israeli zionists (read settlers and supporters from the U. S., Canada and Europe) has been to take control of the entire region. Unspoken, but on-going. All that is left is a small piece of land-locked territory on the west bank and possibly the detached Gaza strip. Nothing on which to base a nation.

Nothing is being done to ameliorate the situation of the Palestinian refugees or relieve Palestinian poverty except small amounts of foreign aid. It has fallen to the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and others to host those refugees who already have been forced out of their homeland. In the remaining West Bank, towns like Ramallah have become little more that refugee camps under the occupation.
Lebanon, once a bright light in the Middle East, has been disrupted by Israeli policies; Hamas and others fill the vacuum.

Frustration, hopelessness, impotence and dispair breed terrorism.

A strong nation to counter the Israelis is needed in the region. Iran may be the future hope, if allowed and encouraged to develop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM

"Perhaps the failure of major world powers to hold the Turkish government responsible for the Genocide committed against Armenians became a cause for Hitler to say, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" at the outset of the Jewish Holocaust. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:22 PM

note the comment "The massacre of 1915, which lasted until 1923"...


Abdul Hamid II ruled from 1876 to 1909. The first wave of executions of Armenians came in the 1890's under his rule. In1896, the Turkish government, headed by its bloodthirsty dictator, organized a genocide against Armenians, which resulted in some 300.000 Armenian deaths. Another genocide against Armenians was carried out later in 1908. Although it resulted in less Armenian deaths, Turks were getting their job done by slowly rupturing the Armenian vigor.

       Apparently, being happy with the results of previous genocides, on the April 24th of 1915, taking advantage of the outbreak of World War I, Abdul Hamid's successors -the Young Turkish government headed by Enver Pasha, Cemal Pasha and Talat Pasha-set out to implement the long-planned program of extermination of the Armenian population of Turkey. The massacres began in Constantinople with the arrests of 250 Armenian intellectuals consisting of politicians, journalists, poets, lawyers, doctors etc. They were sent to jail, where, later, they were all killed. Two months later, on June 15, 20 politicians, who were members of a political party called "Hnckak" were publicly hanged on false accusations of planning a revolution and a terrorist attack against the government. For several days thousands of intellectuals, politicians, teachers, priests etc. were killed all over the country. Thus they got rid of the "head" so Armenians wouldn't be able to organize any resistance.

       Throughout the whole country Christians and Muslims were being ordered to hand over any weapons they had. Yet, the authorities were not so demanding to Muslims. When Armenians would take their weapons to the police to hand them over, they were arrested on accusations of planning a revolution and their weapons were seized as proof. Henry Morgenthau, the U.S. ambassador in Turkey at that time, describes in his writings how men, who were taken to prison were tortured. He writes that As a preliminary to the searches everywhere, the strong men of the villages and towns were arrested and taken to prison. Their tormentors here would exercise the most diabolical ingenuity in their attempt to make their victims declare themselves "revolutionists" and to tell the hiding places of their arms. A common practice was to place the prisoner in a room, with two Turks stationed at each end and each side. The examination would then begin with the bastinado. This is a form of torture not uncommon in the Orient; it consists of beating the soles of the feet with a thin rod. At first the pain is not marked; but as the process goes slowly on, it develops into the most terrible agony, the feet swell and burst, and not infrequently, after being submitted to this treatment, they have to be amputated. They would pull out his eyebrows and beard almost hair by hair; they would extract his fingernails and toe nails they would apply red-hot irons to the breast of their victim, tear off his flesh with red-hot pincers, and then pour boiled butter into the wounds. He also writes: "The gendarmes would nail hands and feet to pieces of wood---evidently in imitation of the Crucifixion, and then, while the sufferer writhed in his agony, they would cry: ' Now let your Christ come and help you!'"

       Soon the hatred escalated and became a cause for even bloodier events. A Turkish officer named Lieutenant Sayied Ahmed Moukhtar Baas, who was often being ordered to deport Armenians from different cities, testifies that he was ordered to deport all the Armenians of the city Erzrum, and that being a member of the Court Martial he knew that those deportations meant massacres. In his testimonies he also says that in the city of Trabizond, while being deported, men were separated from their families, and later killed. Women were also killed and many children were stabbed and thrown into the sea near Trabizond and a few days later their bodies were washed up on the shore at Trabizond (Baas).

       In many cities tens of thousands of Armenians were being killed. In the city of Van almost 60.000 Armenians were killed, their belongings were looted and their homes burned. In many cases Armenians would be the ones to be burned along their homes. Tens of thousands of Armenians were also killed in the cities of Erzrum, Kars, Adana, Igdir, Mush, Istanbul, Sari Ghamish, Harpurt, Marash, Sivas, Bitlis and in many other cities. "Killer battalions were organized, and in every significant town and city party functionaries were at work to ensure the execution of directives and to remove weak-hearted and recalcitrant officials" (sscent.ucla.edu). Armenian men, who previously served in the Ottoman army, were turned into road laborers (Morgenthau). They were being sent to various parts of the Empire to construct roads and railways in thousands. Turks would wait until Armenians would get tired to ensure that they wouldn't be able to resist, and then they would either attack or simply shoot them. Many of the victims were ordered to dig their graves before being shot. In many cases Turkish soldiers would cut off their head, put them on a stick and carry them as if they were their trophies.

       Early in July, 2,000 Armenian "amélés"---such is the Turkish word for soldiers who have been reduced to workmen---were sent from Harpoot to build roads. The Armenians in that town understood what this meant and pleaded with the Governor for mercy. But this official insisted that the men were not to be harmed, and he even called upon the German missionary, Mr. Ehemann, to quiet the panic, giving that gentleman his word of honor that the ex-soldiers would be protected. Mr. Ehemann believed the Governor and assuaged the popular fear. Yet practically every man of these 2,000 was massacred, and their bodies thrown into a cave. A few escaped, and it was from these that news of the massacre reached the world.

       Henry Morgenthau, the U.S. Ambassador in Turkey at that time writes: "Most of us believe that torture has long ceased to be an administrative and judicial measure, yet I do not believe that the darkest ages ever presented scenes more horrible than those which now took place all over Turkey."

       Unlike their predecessor Abdul Hamid II whose agenda was to kill, kill and only kill, the Young Turks, perhaps caused by increasing pressure from outside, now decided to begin the implementations of new tactics, which wouldn't seem so horrible in the eyes of other countries. They thought of a new plan of getting rid of Armenians. They began to deport hundreds of thousands of Armenians, mostly women, children and elderly to the Syrian Desert and the Mesopotamian valley, where Armenians would either starve to death or die from thirst. Though part of this area was once the scene of a flourishing civilization, for the last five centuries it has suffered the blight that becomes the lot of any country that is subjected to Turkish rule; and it is now a dreary, desolate waste, without cities and towns or life of any kind, populated only by a few wild and fanatical Bedouin tribes. Yet for the better part of six months, from April to October 1915, practically all the highways in Asia Minor were crowded with these unearthly bands of exiles. They could be seen winding in and out of every valley and climbing up the sides of nearly every mountain moving on and on, they scarcely knew whither, except that every road led to death. Village after village and town after town was evacuated of its Armenian population, under the distressing circumstances already detailed (Morgenthau)."In these six months, as far as can be ascertained, about 1,200,000 people started on this journey to the Syrian desert "(Morgenthau).

       As the British news agency "The Independent" describes in its September 27, 1915 issue "The Depopulation of Armenia": "Thousands of families have been driven from their homes to starve upon the roads. Towns and villages have been divested of their inhabitants. Many are being put to torture to force them to renounce their Christian faith. Women are interned in the harems and children are sold as slave."

       Often, while on their way to be "executed," they would be attacked by Turkish and Kurdish tribes, who were previously being notified that a caravan was approaching. Sometimes the wives of those tribesmen would join the attacks with butcher's knives in their hands, in order to gain the merit in Allah's eyes, which comes from killing a Christian (Morgenthau).
       The hot sun of the desert burned their scantily clothed bodies, and their bare feet, treading the hot sand of the desert; they became so sore that thousands fell and died or were killed where they lay. Thus, in a few days, who had been normal human beings became a stumbling horde of dust-covered skeletons, looking for scraps of food, eating any offal that came their way, crazed by the hideous sights that filled every hour of their existence, sick with all the diseases that accompany such hardships. When they would reach to a river, Turkish gendarmes, who were "accompanying" the caravans, wouldn't let them drink, or they would tie women and children up and throw them into the river Every caravan had a continuous battle for existence with several classes of enemies---their accompanying gendarmes, the Turkish peasants and villagers, the Kurdish tribes and bands of Chétés or brigands. And we must always keep in mind that the men who might have defended these wayfarers had nearly all been killed or forced into the army as workmen, and that the exiles themselves had been systematically deprived of all weapons before the journey began.

       The massacre of 1915, which lasted until 1923, resulted in more than 1.5 million Armenians killed, a nation driven out of its historic homeland and scattered all around the world. Yet, till this day, despite all the evidences in the U.S and British archives that contain more than 30.000 pages of articles, eyewitness testimonies of foreign officials and survivors, the Turkish government denies that a genocide against Armenians ever occurred. The Turkish government even accuses Armenians of killing innocent Turks.

       ". . . the Armenian massacre was the greatest crime of the war, and the failure to act against Turkey is to condone it . . . the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense" (Theodore Roosevelt). Until this day major world powers have failed to hold the Turkish government responsible for the Genocide that was committed against Armenians. But some Armenians took justice into their own hands and took revenge. Talat was killed by an Armenian nationalist-Sogomon Telerian in 1921 in Berlin. Enver Pasha was killed by Soviet forces in 1922 in Tajikistan. As for Cemal Pasha, an Armenian in Tiffs killed him in 1922. Perhaps the failure of major world powers to hold the Turkish government responsible for the Genocide committed against Armenians became a cause for Hitler to say, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" at the outset of the Jewish Holocaust. Perhaps this failure was a cause for Armenians to be killed in the Azerbaijani cities of Baku, Sumgait and Kirovabad, where women were being stoned, stripped naked, burned publicly; newborns were thrown out of the 6th floor of the hospitals and men's eyes were pulled-out. Perhaps the failure of major world powers to punish the Turkish government was the cause for thousand to be killed in Rwanda, Kosovo, Bosnia and in other places. Perhaps this failure will be the cause for many other sufferings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:17 PM

Yes, but this treaty acknowledged that the rest of the world would do nothing while the Turks continued to control Armenia and the Kurds.


The Holocaust has its roots in the pogroms of the 1880s onward-

1905: A week-long pogrom marking one of the bloodiest periods in Russian Jewish history begins, spreading to dozens of towns and villages throughout Russia. Hundreds of Jews are killed, thousands are wounded and over forty thousand homes and shops are destroyed in the rioting.

three great waves of anti-Jewish rioting in the Russian Empire in 1881-82, 1903-06, and 1919-21

During the Civil War of 1918-1921, 2,000 pogroms left an estimated 100,000 Jews dead and more than half a million homeless.


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