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how important is the label traditional singer?

The Sandman 14 Oct 07 - 04:50 PM
Herga Kitty 14 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM
GUEST 14 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM
Lowden Jameswright 10 Oct 07 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 10 Oct 07 - 07:59 AM
Bryn Pugh 10 Oct 07 - 05:00 AM
Betsy 10 Oct 07 - 04:25 AM
Folkiedave 10 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 07 - 03:49 AM
Folkiedave 09 Oct 07 - 07:56 PM
The Sandman 09 Oct 07 - 06:20 PM
Folkiedave 09 Oct 07 - 04:39 PM
The Sandman 09 Oct 07 - 03:44 PM
The Sandman 09 Oct 07 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 09 Oct 07 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 09 Oct 07 - 02:58 AM
Barry Finn 09 Oct 07 - 12:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Oct 07 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 08 Oct 07 - 04:04 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Oct 07 - 11:47 AM
Bryn Pugh 08 Oct 07 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,irishenglish 08 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM
Stringsinger 06 Oct 07 - 06:34 PM
Folkiedave 06 Oct 07 - 06:32 PM
Stringsinger 06 Oct 07 - 06:01 PM
Dave Sutherland 06 Oct 07 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 06 Oct 07 - 04:33 PM
Barry Finn 06 Oct 07 - 03:55 PM
The Sandman 06 Oct 07 - 02:03 PM
Folkiedave 06 Oct 07 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 06 Oct 07 - 01:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 07 - 01:26 PM
greg stephens 06 Oct 07 - 01:03 PM
The Sandman 06 Oct 07 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 06 Oct 07 - 12:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 07 - 12:15 PM
greg stephens 06 Oct 07 - 11:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 07 - 10:48 AM
Folkiedave 06 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM
the button 06 Oct 07 - 10:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 07 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 06 Oct 07 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 06 Oct 07 - 09:54 AM
greg stephens 06 Oct 07 - 09:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 07 - 09:24 AM
Betsy 06 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 06 Oct 07 - 08:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 07 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 06 Oct 07 - 08:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 07 - 07:40 AM
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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 04:50 PM

Ihave them.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM

Roger - IIRC, I heard John Copper perform the Oily Rigs in the early 1970s...

Kitty


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM

Whos got the words to The Oily rigs.Last heard at the Norwich festival about 1986
Roger Green (Betsy to the morris)


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 08:40 AM

It may be important to singers who choose to sing via nose & throat?


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:59 AM

Ditto
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:00 AM

May the Great Mother and the All Father comfort your rel;ative and you.

So mote it be. Bryn


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Betsy
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:25 AM

Dick, I'm very sorry to hear about your relative and I hope you both make the best of the situation.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM

Sorry to hear about your relative Dick, I hope he/she gets better.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:49 AM

I have just returned from England,where I have just visited a close relative who is extremely ill [Multiple Sclerosis].
I am in no mood to take part in this sort of discussion, or any discussion at the moment,and so am withdrawing from Mudcat,until I feel better.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:56 PM

Dick,

Never have I suggested that middle class is a derogatory term. You made that bit up.

When you make statements of fact then you need to back them up. If you want to say the folkscene is 90% middle class that implies that some research exists with, first of all a definition of class, and secondly some numbers.

Dick you can say what you like and no-one is going to stop you. If in your opinion the folk scene is 90% middle-class you - AT THE VERY LEAST - have to say what you mean by middle-class. That is if you want your opinion to carry any weight. Of course if you want it ignored as just so much flim-flammery then fine. Tell us you do not want your postings to be considered as serious contributions and I am happy to ignore them.

neither have you provided a logical reply or proved that Fishermen singing the above mentioned songs about their livelihoods

As for your fishermen, I asked before and I ask again - do they sing the same "Three Score and Ten" as the Watersons sang?

Since you clearly have a group of singing fishermen living near - do they only sing these two songs? Do they sing other songs? If so what do they sing? Who are they? Where can they be heard singing? Has anyone recorded their singing? Where did they learn "Three Score and Ten" and "Fiddler's Green"? Have they altered any of the words? Do they sing in harmony or unison? Are they accompanied?

For someone interested in folk music with, as you keep telling us, a wealth of experience in folk music - here is what sounds like an interesting group of fishermen of which you seem to be able to tell us very little about their music. Apart from the fact they sing "Three Score and Ten" and "Fiddler's Green".

Folk music is a serious subject in my opinion and deserves to be treated seriously and not just subject to opinions that are loosely based on a person's experience, valuable though that experience might be, without some sort of evidence to back up what they say.

If you disagree with any of that last paragraph, say which part you think I have got wrong.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:20 PM

FOLKIE DAVE,
whenever anyone contributes to a thread on this forum,they are giving only their own opinion.that applies to you as well as me or anyone else.
my evidence is before my eyes,I have been involved with the folkscene for forty years and in my opinion,it is ninety percent middle class.[middle class is not in my opinion derogatory]
no2,
I have heard Fiddlers Green and Three score,being sung by fishermen[who are not part of the folk revival] many times in this area,I consider that evidence[and that is only my opinion] that these songs have entered the tradition.
Dave, my statements about class are not any more self important than Wee Little Drummers,yet you are not even handed with your insults.,you havent accused him of making self important statements about class.
Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 08:38 AM

well I think its a sort of middle class atavistic drive for solidarity. keeps the plebs away. they're not going to bother with these songs where the substance is at very best hidden and in many cases negligible.

so we'll sing it in this daft voice. we won't actually bother learning the words (or the tune) only professionals do that and we're gifted amateurs, who could be professionals if we wanted, but we'd rather be quantity surveyors.
I have not replied to you before,Because it is quite clear you have an axe to grind.I have enclosed WLD post, your lack of reaction to his post,and your hostility to me,illustates this perfectly
you have already been asked by one contributor not to be insulting[Jim Martin].
why should your opinions,be taken any more seriously than mine,you have not provided evidence that the folkscene is not ninety percent middle class,neither have you provided a logical reply or proved that Fishermen singing the above mentioned songs about their livelihoods is not evidence of their having entered the tradition.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 04:39 PM

You make self-important statements about class and the composition of the folk scene. I asked you for the evidence that 90 percent of the folk scene is middle class. So far, silence.

"but that is my opinion,Durham Lockout has entered the tradition,so has FiddlersGreen and Three Score and Ten.Dick Miles"

I asked you how you know that "Three Score and Ten" has entered the tradition. So far, silence.

You make wild statements for which you have no evidence or research.

Give me one good reason why anyone would want to treat you seriously? I am expecting silence on that one too.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:44 PM

I enjoy singing.
I enjoy playing music,on my concertina,guitar, tenor Banjo ,Violin and Harmonica.
Bryn Pugh,you may think you know what I think,you may think you know that which gets on my tits,With respect I am the bestJudge of that.
I am sure you would not like it,if I claimed to know that which got on your tits.
I do not see anything wrong with being middle class,or any other class,but I am of the opinion that ninety percent of the folk revival is middle class.
Folkie Dave asked me what class I thought he was,he is in a class of his own,the Folkie Dave class.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:15 PM

I


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 04:18 AM

It's probably foolhardy to blunder into the field of semantics, but doesn't "traditional song" mean "a song that is part of a tradition" and "traditional singer" mean "a singer who is part of a tradition"?

I sing traditional songs which I learned from recordings, books and acquaintances. I don't kid myself I'm part of a singing tradition.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 02:58 AM

Thank you Barry.
"but what makes you think your 'understanding of the traditional arts' is the right one."
I don't know I am right, I think I might be, but that's as far as it goes; I participate in forums such as these to learn as much as I do to offer an opinion.
I repeat; my assessment of the Cap'n's (or anybody's) opinion of what he is IS NOT A CRITICISM; it is an attempt to understand the tradition - not everybody's bag, but it happens to be mine.
Whatever Des O'Connor likes to call himself, genealogy will always be an 'alogy', no matter how many people call it an 'ology'
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 12:30 AM

Because one sings traditional songs that doesn't make them a traditional singer, just a singer of traditional songs, not much to it. Good or bad doesn't matter
If the singer is from a community that's used singing as a way of life or life style (examples; Hoboes, cowboys, walking, chain gang, sailors or fisherfolk, etc) or from a family that been singing as a tradition (examples; Stewarts, Clevelands, Ritchies, Coppers, etc) then they might be considered a traditional or source singer. Good or bad doesn't matter. Revival singer or wannabe might fit better.
Jim's on the money

Barry


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 08:08 PM

allright Jim, but what makes you think your 'understanding of the traditional arts' is the right one.

Its an imprecise world - I have noticed.

People define themselves in the way that makes them feel able to be productive, happy and possessing of a modicum of dignity.

Homosexuals like to called gay. Dustmen like to be called refuse disposal men. Des O'Connor likes to be called an entertainer.

I bet the Captain didn't have to work his way up from being a midshipman. he chose to call himself Captain, and he seems to want to call himself a traditional singer.

Give him a break!


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:04 PM

"I can assure you that he more than merits the title (not label) of traditional singer."
Now look what you've done - and just as we were beginning to make some headway with him.
NO HE DOESN'T
any more than I merit the title Spanish singer because I can (and have been known to in my cups) render half a dozen of that country's songs learned from my father who was a prisoner-of-war there.
He is a singer of traditional songs - which is altogether different.
This is no reflection on the good Cap'n, but an attempt on the part of those of us who wish to discuss and, by doing so, understand the traditional arts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 11:47 AM

On the original theme, I'd say that label is exactly as important as the label on a pair of jeans.

The label points you towards what the market thinks you are looking for. If true, you buy the item.

Then, secure in the knowledge that you have been successful on your shopping trip, you rip the bugger off and throw it away.

Incidently, I have known the good Cap'n for longer than most here, having booked him at least three times in the seventies, and I can assure you that he more than merits the title (not label) of traditional singer.

I am equally certain that he would not be in the least put out by not being one of the early source singers, having instead achieved the distinction of being one of the top influences on the "Traditional Folk Process" for more than 30 years, no mean feat in itself.

The Cap'n has IMHO earned respect by any criteria you choose to apply.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 07:48 AM

Do you know, fellow 'Catters, I do believe I have fathomed what triggered this thread.

Captain Birdseye would love to be a traditional singer, source singer ; but, by his own definitions, he can't, any more than I could, and any more than Jim Carroll could, in the days when we were singing (long ago and far away, for me).

And it don't half get on the good Captain's tits.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM

I agree with folkiedave, Captain, that seems to be a dangerous statement to make, and judging what you feel is the economic status of the people on this board is unfair. And I do not feel my attitudes are contrived, snobbish or precious, or in fact, precocious, as I believe you meant to say. Nor does it matter if we are folk/traditional music lovers who work in an office job,or construction like Barry, or are musicians, scraping a living out of love for the music. Be thankful of EVERYONE who attends a festival, be thankful for EVERYONE who buys one of your own CD's Dick. I wouldn't think you would label class distinctions on a portion of your own potential audience Dick.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 06:34 PM

All research is located in the Folk Ministry of Truth.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 06:32 PM

Dick, class is important in all sorts of contexts and folk music is no exception.

If you go around saying/writing that the folk scene is 90% middle class then either you have done some research to this effect or you have read someone else's research which says that. I can't believe you would write something like that without basing it on solid research.

All I am wondering is where the research is located.

Trust me on this one Dick, there would be lots of people interested in this research, whoever did it.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 06:01 PM

If they don't have a label how are you going to sell them on Gloogle or E Blay?


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 05:06 PM

Didn't Bob Dylan have a No 1 with "Like A Rollin Stone"? Past his sell by - you should have been at Sheffield Arena in April, Captain.
I would have loved to have got deeper into this conversation but I have just got home from following such working class passtimes as going to the Forest v Hartlepool match and discussing Forest's victory in the pub afterwards. Tomorrow night I shall go to my traditionally biased folk club (The Tiger Inn. Long Eaton - you'd be welcome WLD, Keith Kendrick is running a singaround, Brian has already been there a few times)before returning to the factory on Monday morning.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 04:33 PM

Good one, Barry.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 03:55 PM

Since when does the middle class corner the intellegance market & the right to apprecate traditional music when traditionally it's origins are of the poor & working classes? Maybe it's them that can afford to seek it out while the others are still to busy surviving in it.

The factory is pretty much dismanteled in most places by modern technology. Here in the US the last hold outs were on the railroads (hoboing & track work), fishing along the alantic coast & prisons in the soutern states (the last 2 were alive up untill the mid 60's) & maybe there's still a bit survivin in the mountains but I doubt it, tecknology has arrived even into the hollars & back hills. Is there truly a liviing fishing community tradition where within they're singing the "Shoals of Herring" or "3 Score & 10" (which came out of a traditional community even though we know who wrote it, then again it wasn't sung) or is it just a matter of a bunch of modern fisherpeople that like singing about something they know about & is close to their hearts & occupations but does that mean there's an existing community tradition of singing? I think not. Even in the West Indies the fishing communities have gone higher tech & no longer need the aid of song to row by. So where are these live traditions still living. Sure there are a few folks that within these trades & occupations write & sing but where is the community as a whole? For without the community there is no more a living tradition.
2 ironworker drinking in a local bar does not make up a tradition nor do they form a community nor does it give them any more insite into what's exceptable & what's not. I worked construction (roofing) all my life, my local (#33 Boston) was originally made up mosty of members of my community (Mission Hill area of Roxbury) including my uncles who were charter members & many of the older guys came from very close by. I sing & have even written songs of & about the trades but that doesn't make me a traditional singer or writer (if ever there was such a thing) & it doesn't make my songs or the songs I sing any more traditional & it never will unless they & I came out of a communitiy that traditionally used songs as a means for self expression, self enjoyment or some other form of self involvment but mosty the only thing heard was the radio. As I said above George Herbert came from a traditional community, he was a sailor that used song for work & enjoyment. Most of us are revival singers but at the end of the day George only cared that some one would contiue singing his songs after he died & because I sing them doesn't mean I'm a traditional singer either it only means that I'm passing on what was once a song that came out of a tradition.
Dylan & MacColl's songs are not from a traditional community but about a tradition & they happen to be influenced by that community but they were not part of it even though that community may have picked up their songs. Is it worthy of a collector, I don't know that's up to the collector & those that will later veiw their collections. Does that include Woody, I guess some would say so & some not, I'd say he came from a community but who gives a shit what I think. Those communities are today mostly gone & so is the factory that grinded out their music.

Barry


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 02:03 PM

would you ,I dont think you would like my answer.
Brian Peters, he has class as a singer.
you might possibly Have class as a bookseller.
GregStephens, [Dylan]past his sell by date[imo],like the Strolling Bones.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 01:42 PM

And just how are you defining class Captain?

I would love to know where I fit in!!


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 01:38 PM

"Let's do the pub at Monsall Head if its a week night."

Would that be the Pack Horse in Little Longstone? I went to a session there once. As many of the people who fling crap at each other on Mudcat probably would, I have an unsettling suspicion we'd get on fine over a pint and a bit of music.

The Royal Exchange did a very good "Midsummer Night's Dream" with octogenarians playing the fairies and Bottom's gang arriving onstage in a pick-up truck laden with traffic cones.

Now we're really off the topic. No more from me just now.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 01:26 PM

Lets do it sometime Brian - even if its not tonight. Let's do the pub at Monsall Head if its a week night.

I love Shakspeare - I love going to Stratford (at one time I was such a regular I had my own parking space outside the RSC.)

However one night, I started chatting to the car park attendant. I got out my car and the guy said - should be a good one tonight! Just up your street - you'll love it!
I said, You've seen it?
No, but I've heard people talking about this show, they all say its terrific.
So you'll go and see it.....
No I've never been in there, not actually in the theatre - I don't like that sort of thing.

Best Shakespeare I ever saw - Deborah Warner's production of Titus Andronicus at the Swan with Brian Cox as Titus.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 01:03 PM

Capn Birseye: so Bob Dylan only sang songs wruitten by other people early in his career, did he? Well, what stage of his career is he in now, would you say?


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 12:56 PM

I do consider that Dark as The Dungeon,and Working Man I am ,have entered the tradition.WLD is right[imo].
Greg Stephens,by giving two examples,of dylan songs which he recoreded early in his career ,proves nothing apart from that I should have phrased my remark more carefully[DYLAN99 percent ,of the time, does not record songs by other composers,apart from early in his career and then it was only occassionally].
if youdont believe me, re Farewell to the Gold contact PaulMetsers the songs author.
The folkscene is 90 percent middle class.,and some of the attitudes of folkies are contrived and snobbish and precious,this to me has been illustrated by some of the contributors on this thread.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 12:53 PM

Yes WLD, I thought you might say something to the effect that only posh people enjoy Shakespeare. Though this wasn't the case in the bard's time, and doesn't need to be now, given appropriate production and venue (he does get performed outside Stratford and the West End, I believe).

As the button delicately pointed out, it's a short but perilous step from dismissing certain sections of the arts as too highbrow, to suggesting that "working class types" are too thick to "get it".

Traditional song "socially divisive"? Was Fred Jordan upper or middle class, then? Walter Pardon? Do you mean the songs themselves, or the people who like them? Two different arguments, and I disagree with you on both, but really we're getting way off the topic here.

I'd come down to the Three Stags - a good pub, and only half an hour away - and spoil your evening by singing "Long A-Growing" if I wasn't looking after my son tonight (we've videoed "Night of the Demon" in readiness).

I do 'Mighty Quin' as well; what was Mr. Z. on when he wrote it??


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 12:15 PM

sod Bob dylan, I wouldn't have minded a number one hit...!

actually he did, Manfred Mann singing the Mighty Quin was number one. As a writer he's had a number one - I'd settle for that.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 11:32 AM

Well, WLD, you couldn't get a singer(or his audience) much much more middle class than Bob Dylan, and you seem to be quite an admirer of his. He never had a No 1 hit, though he'd have quite liked to.So, though not as obviously working-class music as Clive Dunn or Benny Hill(both much more popular), Dylan's not that bad is he? I mean, what is actually wrong with being middle class?


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 10:48 AM

well there you are

does anyone know if theres a session at The Three Stags Heads Wardlow Mires tonite?

the landlord is feigning ignorance as usual.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM

I think what you say is absolutely true WLD. Indeed I am a great lover of traditional song.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: the button
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 10:25 AM

"traditional folksong - you've got to be bloody intelligent to find the entertainment value."

I don't think that's true, and even if I did, I wouldn't accept that intelligence maps quite so neatly onto class divisions.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 10:19 AM

Well you don't get a lot of working class types at the heavily subsidised theatre seats in Stratford do you? You certainly don't get them guffawing at Shakespeare's witless jokes if they are there -those are upper class expressions of merriment, that I hear. Its like traditional folksong - you've got to be bloody intelligent to find the entertainment value.

Really Brian, you can't see the socially divisive nature of traditional folksong, I'm sorry. I think its a very intentional strand as well.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 09:57 AM

A bit careless there....

Mudcat, of course, exists to bring enthusiasts of 'folk music' of all kinds, however defined, together.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 09:54 AM

"well I think its a sort of middle class atavistic drive for solidarity. keeps the plebs away. they're not going to bother with these songs where the substance is at very best hidden and in many cases negligible."

Hidden? Negligible? I'm really not sure what songs you're talking about here, or which ones you'd prefer. Most of the traditional songs I know wear their hearts on their sleeves, and if you think 'Hind Horn' or 'Sheepcrook and Black Dog' lack substance, then you haven't been listening. Or are you making some kind of suggestion that people from society's lower strata find the old songs too demanding? Cecil Sharp's informants and the travellers that Jim collected from didn't seem to have any problems with that.

A couple of weeks ago I went to the funeral of Joe Kerins, a Mancunian Irishman and working man who sang a belting 'Lord Gregory' and a wealth of other songs both serious and hilarious. For years he was resident at the city-centre folk club I went to for years, along with a bunch of regulars extremely diverse in both musical orientation and social rank. What is this shit about "keeping the plebs at bay"? I just don't get it. Mass entertainment and personal technology have worked their seductive wiles right across the social spectrum. You seem to be saying that because traditional music isn't the music of the masses (whatever 'the masses' consist of these days), then there must be something inherently wrong with it. You might as well say the same about Shakespeare - perhaps you would. The fact is it's a specialised musical interest, and that's why Mudcat exists - to bring its enthusiasts together.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 09:46 AM

Why not just strive to be a singer like Bob Dylan? Or Frank Sinatra? Or Amy Winehouse? Or Paul Robeson? "Folk" does not mean "good", you know, whatever it means.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 09:24 AM

sorry! just having fun!

well its not that Jim, but blokes like me and Jack Hudson, we've wanted to be a folksingers like Bob Dylan since we were kids. that's all we've wanted to do - all we've worked at.

Now you come along after all our efforts and you say we're not folksingers. its a bit of a pisser by any standards!


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Betsy
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM

Hang on WLD !!!! what have Quantity Surveyors done to deserve this ?.(thread creep) The oldest company - George Corderoy founded 1780 London .
It isn't a yuppy profession that those two ill-informed middle class tarts Lawry and Fry would have you believe.
First rule in construction ( and many other things ) if you can't quantify it - you can't properly manage it.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 08:49 AM

Why do people automatically assume that a reluctance to define songs as folk or traditional implies a dislike?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 08:38 AM

well I think its a sort of middle class atavistic drive for solidarity. keeps the plebs away. they're not going to bother with these songs where the substance is at very best hidden and in many cases negligible.

so we'll sing it in this daft voice. we won't actually bother learning the words (or the tune) only professionals do that and we're gifted amateurs, who could be professionals if we wanted, but we'd rather be quantity surveyors.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 08:03 AM

Explain, then.


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Subject: RE: how important is the label traditional singer?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 07:40 AM

' an inexplicable taste for crap songs.'

not inexplicable........


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Mudcat time: 9 April 8:51 AM EDT

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