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Your 6th sense

Sam Pirt 21 Apr 99 - 02:36 PM
MMario 21 Apr 99 - 03:59 PM
Joe Offer 21 Apr 99 - 03:59 PM
Mikal 21 Apr 99 - 05:36 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 21 Apr 99 - 08:01 PM
Joe Offer 21 Apr 99 - 08:50 PM
Colin The Whistler (inactive) 21 Apr 99 - 09:02 PM
Les B 21 Apr 99 - 09:02 PM
DonMeixner 21 Apr 99 - 11:36 PM
campfire 22 Apr 99 - 01:29 AM
mountain tyme 22 Apr 99 - 02:01 AM
Rick Fielding 22 Apr 99 - 02:06 AM
dwditty 22 Apr 99 - 07:20 PM
Tucker 23 Apr 99 - 11:51 PM
Ferrara 24 Apr 99 - 04:23 AM
Roger in Baltimore 24 Apr 99 - 11:01 AM
Bert 24 Apr 99 - 01:59 PM
harpgirl 24 Apr 99 - 02:11 PM
Roger in Baltimore 24 Apr 99 - 02:19 PM
Susan A-R 24 Apr 99 - 09:07 PM
Roger in Baltimore 28 Apr 99 - 01:48 PM
annamill 28 Apr 99 - 02:08 PM
Uilleand 28 Apr 99 - 02:35 PM
harpgirl 28 Apr 99 - 08:41 PM
Tucker 28 Apr 99 - 09:19 PM
Pete peterson 29 Apr 99 - 10:40 AM
MMario 29 Apr 99 - 11:06 AM
Paul G. 29 Apr 99 - 12:11 PM
Ross 29 Apr 99 - 01:30 PM
mountain tyme 29 Apr 99 - 06:33 PM
Penny 30 Apr 99 - 05:50 AM
mountain tyme 30 Apr 99 - 11:52 AM
Rick Fielding 30 Apr 99 - 12:03 PM
Penny 30 Apr 99 - 12:18 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 30 Apr 99 - 01:07 PM
mountain tyme 30 Apr 99 - 07:03 PM
katlaughing 30 Apr 99 - 10:20 PM
Llanfair 01 May 99 - 11:51 AM
Penny 03 May 99 - 04:38 AM
Penny 03 May 99 - 04:55 AM
Llanfair 03 May 99 - 05:43 AM
Penny 03 May 99 - 05:51 AM
Penny 04 May 99 - 01:06 PM
Uilleand 04 May 99 - 01:25 PM
Penny 05 May 99 - 12:49 PM
katlaughing 06 May 99 - 08:48 AM
Penny 06 May 99 - 12:01 PM
Penny 06 May 99 - 12:04 PM
katlaughing 06 May 99 - 04:12 PM
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Subject: Your 6th sence
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 02:36 PM

OK let me take you in to this slowly. It may seem a bit mad but this is sort of the way I view it. I see music as this indiscribable 'force' that only certain people seem to be able use (musicians & singers. The strange thing is why certain performers seem to hold this more than others. I have been to hundreds of concerts (singers & musicians) and I have discovered that certain performers seem to bring across in live concerts and occasionally on cd such moving performances that you can at times have sort of an 'out of body experience' (Am I making sence?) What I want to know is have other people felt this strong force or sixth sence. I can only describe this as a sixth sence, so, what do you think it is that enables things in music to move me in such a big way? and why can certain performers do this better than others? This is a complex issue but an interesting one I think

Bye, Sam


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: MMario
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 03:59 PM

Sam, I think I see what you are saying... However, it is not all musicians and singers who can do this. Some performers are technically correct - and their performances have no life in them whatsoever.

Other performers - who may not be as technically "perfect" can wring every last emoticon out of a tune or song....

charisma? empathy? whatever - some people have it, some don't

MMario


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sense
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 03:59 PM

I think you're right, Sam. sometimes when I'm singing, I feel I "connect" with the people listening and the people I'm singing with, and there is a bond created that is beyond almost any other form of human communication. At times like that, singing is like being in heaven.
At times when I don't connect, singing can be the most difficult task in the world. Most of the time, it's somewhere in between those two extremes - it's fun, but not sublime. I live for those sublime moments.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Mikal
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:36 PM

Okay, I haven't been in the mix for some time now, but I understand exactly what you mean about the "mystical" connection some performers have with an audience.

However, in storytelling the "magic" is more a learned skill than a "gift". A good storyteller has a connection that he/she maintains in a tale. It is sparked by the words, the sounds themselves that connect with the audience on a level just short of consious. Many of us respond to sounds, (and colors, and shapes,) in emotional ways. All you need to do is watch one of those really effective hollywood films to see the trick in action on several levels at once.

I teach storytelling to some private students in the off season. The skill is based on finding the sounds and the phrases that spark that connection, and then monitoring your audience. Another skill is to identify those points that work on yourself as well. If you are affected by the tale, your audience will be as well. One of my students did very poorly on something he had unearthed and polished, but did fantastic on a piece written by Kipling, (his favorite author.) It was his own "connection" with the tale that made him connect with his audience.

Perhaps, it is the song that connects and not the singer. Or rather the connection the song has to the singer that makes it so magical to an audience.

Then again, it could just be the beer...

Mikal


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 08:01 PM

Sam, I think it's simpler than a sixth sense, but I know just what you mean. There is an uncanny something that connects and creates magic- whether thru music or storytelling or theater or dance- I think it has something to do with the mutual subliminal agreement between performer and audience to dispense with self-consciousness and ego and join in creating something wonderful.
Wow- that sounds like gobbledy gook. I'm not very good with words- hope it got across!
Allison


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sense
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 08:50 PM

Yeah, Mikal - I think you're right that storytelling can have the same effect. I feel a bit guilty abut the pleasure I took once in telling a story to 150 kids. I paused at a dramatic point in the middle of the story and heard nothing but silence - it was a feeling of absolute power. Ahhhhh!
After spending a week with those kids, the silence felt terrific.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Colin The Whistler (inactive)
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:02 PM

Music is emotion..be it the player or the listener.. Amateur players can loose themselves..teenagers loose themeselves in pop /rock music etc...I'm guilty..I very rarley play without trying to give over 100%, when you are on this plane it is quite mystical.. when you here other people trying to learn what you do..or other professional players who are at them same standard as you, you gain an internal feeling that is hard to explain outside the musician's world. But people don't realise..to play the instrument may take five years to play it right may take another five and then to decide from the great wealth of tunes that exsist..which one's to learn ... then to have to sit down, spending hours learning and practicing them, is all the part of a great equation that has a three minute result, when playing to the public !!..It's not a bloody wonder you go into an internal trance.. But then when ya finish and ya know it's right..Ya here the applause..then its all worth it.

Yes I agree but its not strange..when you put so much work into something ...it's nice to internally druel over the result..work away Mudcatters... Or Dare I call them Mudcateer's!!!

Slainte

Colin Ballygally


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Les B
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:02 PM

I suspect that what you may be experiencing is a state of "altered consciousness" -- some people/cultures arrive at it through drugs, others use exercises like yoga, or chanting or drumbeats (especially shamans), and some people use music. The phrases "getting in the groove" or "spacing out" are probably apt descriptions of this sort of phenomena. Oh God, I could be a pop psychologist if I had the right buzz words. ?!?!?! It is a pleasurable state.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:36 PM

Sam,

Listen to the singers when the harmony is just right. There is another voice that is heard that isn't made by any one singer but it is there none the less. This ghost voice is there when the storyteller has you the ears and though your eyes are open, you see the words of the story in pictures before you. The ghost is there too when when the whistle and the harp recall O'Carolan from the grave and their blended elegance melts your heart.

You are correct, there is a second level at which performers may play, no one ever all the time. But some more than others and I am happy when I reach it now and again.

Regards

Don


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: campfire
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:29 AM

I'd have to agree that there's a sort of "magic" with the music; sometimes its there, and sometimes its not. In the groups I sing with, anyway, no one person or group can "make" it happen, no matter how hard you try; but as Joe mentioned above, sometimes it all just clicks and there is some indefinable quality to the evening. Those are ususally the "evenings" that go on until near dawn. Other times, the same group of people can be there, and want it, but the magic just doesn't come that night. Around midnight the first people start drifting out of circle, and it just peters out from there.

My favorite magic night was an impromptu event at a family camp. We had a grandmother in her late 80's, my father, who claims 39 (I'm 40, can't explain that one....) on down to high school ages. No instruments (or books) at all - someone just suggested a Sing after dinner. One song suggested another, and so on until, at about 2 in the morning, one of the youngsters looked at us and asked "How do you guys know so many songs?" That's when we realized we'd been singing for more than 5 hours! And we weren't ready to stop.

campfire/Dawn


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: mountain tyme
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 02:01 AM

Ok Sam Pert you're on to something we here think about a lot. Some performers raise the hair straight up on our arms and back of our neck. I was tinkerin in my shop a few years back in total silence, my hair came up like i said. I felt someone was close by or watching and where i live that just can't happen. I slowley turned and a black bear was just sitting ten feet away pondering on me. There is no way i could have known she was there. When we come off stage some folks remark how we "rung em' out" crying and some relate the hair thing. Got to be something to it. Sixth sense is a good description. Cletus an Paw an 49 cats gets my hair up too if'n ya wanna know a'bout thet! But it ain't the same hair you bet!


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 02:06 AM

Hi Moutain, I've enjoyed your "pickin' stories". What's the name of your band? Do you do much travellin'?

rick


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: dwditty
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 07:20 PM

I definitely know the 6th sense feeling. Sometimes I get it but a person I am with does not. And vice versa. So, as someone once said ina thread (and I think it was probably Art Thieme - at least it sounds like him), "Beauty is in the ear of the behearer." .. or words to that effect.

DW


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Tucker
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 11:51 PM

The nuns used to call singing "twice praying". Some truth to that I think. Nothing elevates the soul like 'gettin' down' in a song that moves you. I am not a christian person anymore but nothing, short of nothing, moves me more that singing Amazing Grace at a doings (funeral, whatever. I was once in a bar no less, and we were having a sing along. That song came up. The only person who got upset was the bartender, the rest of the place had an experience singing it. Ok, that's weird but it happened.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Ferrara
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 04:23 AM

I don't know whether I have ever experienced the kind of thing you're talking about when I was listening to music, but recently I've had the feeling of "going into an internal trance" when performing "The Death of Queen Jane," and I feel it when I sing "Sheath and Knife," even though I haven't even finished learning the song, because the story and tune move me so much. Whenever I pour myself into the world of "Queen Jane," I practically transport myself to the scene, and when the song is finished, it takes a few seconds to move up from the 16th to the 20th century. There's a real change of consciousness and I feel very vulnerable to loud noises, etc. during those few moments. On a practical level I assumed it was a matter or moving into a right-brained mode, or maybe into some of the sleep-like brain rhythms (theta? delta? beta? ... I can't remember...) that characterize certain meditation states. Now that I've learned to let myself go that much to one or two songs, maybe I'll have the experience you're describing when I'm in other music situations one of these days. Neat thread.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 11:01 AM

Hold onto your seats folks, you are about to enter the "Twilight Zone!"

I have a friend who swears that I am a "projective empath". Let me try to explain. I perform often at venues with multiple performers, The people are often just as intent on socializing as they are on listening to music. The music is, of course, variable, some very, very good and some just learning the ropes. Usually, the audience gets quiet within the first song or two of my set and stays quiet most of the way through.

My friend, who performs more frequently than I, says I am able to "project" the feeling of the songs and that is what grabs the audience.

Me, I don't know, but I certainly enjoy quiet listening to chatty background. What I do know, is I can't "will" it to happen. Whatever I do has nothing to do with "making" the audience listen. What it does have to do with is putting myself into the song and the situation it describes. This is what connects with the audience.

I choose good songs, play adequate guitar, and have been blessed with a mellow baritone voice, but I don't think of my performances as musically "stunning". So I accept my friend's explanation. If feels good even if it's not right.

This may also mean that I, or we, are also empaths, able to feel the feelings of others through their music. There are several songs that just make me cry, even with repeatedly listenings. Three that come to mind are John Mc Cutcheons "Christmas in the Trenches" and Guy Clark's "The Randall Knife" and "Let Him Roll". When I requested one of the latter in concert, Guy said he tries to keep it to one "wrist slasher" per set. I have to be careful in performing these songs, because I frequently cry when I sing them which is not all bad, but sometimes I can't finish the song.

Anybody got any ideas?

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:59 PM

I feel it more when dancing. You seem to be in a different world and when the dance ends you look around and wonder where you are.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 02:11 PM

Roger,
any chance you could share the words to Randall Knife and Let Him Roll? harp


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 02:19 PM

Harpgirl,

I'm on my way out the door. Perhaps on Monday I can dig out my Guy Clark stuff.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Susan A-R
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 09:07 PM

There are some singers who give more life to music than others, as I see it. There is an edge that goes beyond the words or quality, its more alife. The lead singer in the Oyster Band does that for me,as do Inti Illmani (yep, Catspaw, tiples and all.) same thing has happened in a few settings where it's been my great pleasure to sing,with Bayley Hazen sacred harp folks, mostly on account of Larry Gordon, with a local guy at sessions here. I don't feel it with recordings, so I think that Roger is onto it. I can do it now and then, and want to find musicians where that happens because it does make my hair stand up (It needs all the help it can get) and it is a wondrous thing.

Susan


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Subject: Lyr Add: LET HIM ROLL + THE RANDALL KNIFE (Clark
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 01:48 PM

Harpgirl,

Well, my computer shut down for a few days, so I plead forgiveness in not posting these songs sooner.


LET HIM ROLL
by Guy Clark

He was a wino tried and true.
Done about everything there is to do,
He worked on freighters and he worked in bars,
He worked on farms and he worked on cars.

Well it was white port that put that look in his eye,
That grown men get when they need to cry,
We sat down on the curb to rest,
And his head just fell down on his chest.

He said, "Every single day it gets,
Just a little bit harder to handle and yet."
Then he lost the thread and his mind got cluttered,
And the words just rolled off down the gutter.

He was an elevator man in a cheap hotel,
In exchange for the rent on a one room cell.
And he was old in years beyond his time,
No thanks to the world and the white port wine.

He said, "Son." He always called me son,
Life for you has just begun.
" And he told me the story that I'd heard before,
How he fell in love with a Dallas whore.

He could cut through the years to the very night,
It all ended in a whore house fight.
And she turned his last proposal down,
In favor of being a girl about town.

It's been seventeen years right in line,
And he ain't been straight none of the time.
It's too many days of fightin' the weather,
And too many nights of not being together.
So he died.

When they went through his personal effects,
In among the stubs from the welfare checks,
Was a crumbling picture of a girl in a door,
And an address in Dallas and nothing more.

The welfare people provided the priest,
And the couple from the mission down the street,
Sang "Amazing Grace" and no one cried,
'Cept some woman in back, way off to the side.

We all left and she was standing there,
Black veil covering her silver hair,
And old one-eyed John said her name was Alice,
She use to be a whore in Dallas.

Oh let him roar, oh let him roll,
I bet he's gone to Dallas rest his soul.
Oh let him roll, oh let him roar,
He always said that heaven was just a Dallas whore.


THE RANDALL KNIFE
by Guy Clark

My father had a Randall knife.
My mother gave it to him,
When he went off to World War II,
To save us all from ruin.
If you've ever held a Randall knife,
Then you know my father well.
If a better blade was ever made,
I was probably forged in hell.

My father was a good man,
A lawyer by his trade,
And only once did I ever see,
Him misuse the blade.
It almost cut his thumb off,
When he took it for a tool.
The knife was made for darker things,
And you could not bend the rules.

He let me take it camping once,
On a Boy Scout jamboree,
And I broke a half an inch off,
Trying to stick it in a tree.
I hid it from him for a while,
But the knife and he were one,
He put it in his bottom drawer,
Without a hard word one.

There it slept and there it stayed,
For twenty some odd years,
Sort of like Excalibur,
Except waiting for a tear.

My father died when I was forty,
And I couldn't find a way to cry,
Not because I didn't love him,
Not because he didn't try.
I'd cried for every lesser thing,
Whiskey,
pain and beauty,
But he deserved a better tear,
And I was not quite ready.

So we took his ashes out to sea,
And poured 'em off the stern,
And threw the roses in the wake,
Of everything we'd learned.
When we got back to the house,
They asked me what I wanted.
Not the law books not the watch,
I need the things he's haunted.

My hand burned for the Randall knife,
There in the bottom drawer,
And I found a tear for my father's life,
And all that it stood for.


Enjoy the music!

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: annamill
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 02:08 PM

Musicians, Please don't say this (whatever it is) is only for musicians. I'm not talented musically, can't play a lick, (trying to learn), but I feel exactly what your talking about. Like Bert, I feel it mostly when I dance. My body is an instrument and I join in the out-of body experience with whatever musician is calling me.

That is exactly what it is to me. It's almost orgasmic. (Hope that's not a dirty word here)

Anna


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Uilleand
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 02:35 PM

I'm so glad I happened on this thread. This jives with a lot of the things that have been said in the Music Therapy threads. And it also adds another dimension. Roger, I had the same experience with 'Christmas in the Trenches'. Heard it for the first time at the Old Bull and Bush this January and tears were just streaming down my face.

In the Music Therapy thread we talked a bit about sound healing. In his book 'Healing Sounds' Jonathan Goldman speaks about the power of sound to heal by projecting vibrations into different parts of the body and auric field. But without the power of intent the effects are minimal. It's the same energy that works in prayer. Being fully present in the moment and then projecting the intent and understanding of the sound/music. When I say 'understanding' I'm refering to an understanding that transcends the mind. In shamanism we call it the 'body-mind', the center of which is located an inch or so below the naval. It's the understanding of experience and compassion.

From a theoretical perspective we are elevated to a faster vibration of energy, a state closer to the bliss of the divine, 'quickened' so to speak. From personal experience I would second this theory.

I hope we can keep this thread going I would love to hear more about others' experiences with this.

Uilleand


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 08:41 PM

Thank you for those songs Roger. I am looking forward to the day when we meet and can share the songs that move us and that make us joyful. I've been a therapist so long that not much makes me cry deeply any more but I am moved by Geraldine and Ruthie Mae...The Randall Knife makes me think about my best friend from childhood, Mickey Van who died when we were thirty eight. I sat in her room at the wake with all our dearest childhood friends downstairs (sailors all and very raucous) and cried and I looked at her tanksuit hanging up in the closet and I wanted it because we swam so many races together as teammates...I am joyful that her niece Tracy Van is the youngest champion woman ski jumper in the US. Watch for her at the Olympics. Mickey and I spent many winters jumping moguls at Mt. Christie and Alpine Valley in the winter when we couldn't swim... regards, harp


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Tucker
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 09:19 PM

I caught that song "Christmas In the Trenches" once on Thistle and Shamrock. I thought I was taping but I wasn't. I don't know the other two, but I was moved. That should be heard every year on the airwaves instead of "Grandma got ran over by a reindeer". Would you share the words to that Please?? (Not Grandma). I am still amazed at what I learn on this site. I guess you all have noticed I have been camping here a lot lately

Links added.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Pete peterson
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 10:40 AM

Harpgirl is being quite modest; I have heard her sing the Carter Family's Are you tired of me my darling and been moved almost to tears by it

and the times I come closest to believing in the Gospel is singing Gospel music. . .

but what IS it that moves people and how do you bottle and distill it? wish I knew. Really interesting to hear other thoughts-- wish I had those gifts myself! PETE


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: MMario
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 11:06 AM

The way to this kind of feeling differs for different people; and for some there may be multiple routes. I find that I get much the same sense of connection to the world when I am singing a song well; LISTENING to some music (not necessarily the "best" performance - depends on the performer); or, most precious feeling in my eyes, when I hold a baby.

For one of my sisters, it is dance, and you can SEE it happen. I had a friend who found this sort of connection in viewing paintings.....

MMario


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Paul G.
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 12:11 PM

If it were possible to reduce, mathematically, the substance of the "why" in musical performance (for me, at least) this is it...sixth sence, or whatever. It is the spiritual connection which occurs between me and an audience, a place, or even a lyrical circumstance drawn out of the music that keeps me going. For me, like Joe, it's not always there. But when it is, its exquisite, and its real. I actually "get it" more often when listening to someone, either live or recorded, than when performing, but its a much more intense connection when I'm performing. Jeez...amazing how much spirituality just leaked out of me in one little paragraph!

--pg


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Ross
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 01:30 PM

Being charismatically challenged, I don't fell it near often enough. A few singers do it. Ashoken Farewell sometimes. When I sang with one particulair partner for a while. Occasionally at a jam when the parts blend just so. Whatever it is, it's real and it's magic.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: mountain tyme
Date: 29 Apr 99 - 06:33 PM

Reply to 22-Apr-99. Sorry, got busy. Yep Rick F. thet be the name of our band for sure. Up and down the east coast to some 10-15 summer music fests. Local clubs etc. in the winter. The little blonde girl that sings lead for me to tenor was doing Kitty Wells covers by herself one night in a festival parkin lot. One 39 h'bone an a carved bull base. The bass man and I called attention to the state of our arm hair which was quite visibly standing straight up as if we were cold. The temp that night was high eighties and very humid. Most folks gathered round then also said their hair was up. Our band does cylinder covers thru 1905, 78 covers thru 1948 and later songs we make sound like cylinders. We're listed in B/U. I'm thinkin Don 21- Apr & Ross 29-Apr are on to it. Just listen harder folks it's out there just for you.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 30 Apr 99 - 05:50 AM

I felt that feeling when singing (don't comment, please) the chorus in "The Pirates of Penzance" where the policemen are dispatched on the foe. Others, I believe felt it while singing "Hail Poetry" in the same piece. I didn't, as the contralto line was taxing my conscious mind, ad I didn't get caught up in it. I felt it while listening to a Strauss piece from one of the operettas - "Brother mine" in English. It is obviously not anything to do with the words in these cases, since they are completely trivial.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: mountain tyme
Date: 30 Apr 99 - 11:52 AM

Penny 30-Apr.....Can you think more on that feeling an post more detailed ponderings. I love this thread because I've pondered the feeling for so long. When Penny points out that it is not the lyric that brings on the felling that for me clearly separates two distinctly different feelings. The hair raising Sam Pirt 21-Apr. sixth sense overcomes me at a time where the intensity of the rendering becomes eerie but without sorrow. On the other side of it the type of music I do allows a sharing of two men, standing alone together singing lyrics so powerfull and profound to their senses that they openly begin to cry. This level of sharing between two men in public is unique in itself but does not acheive the level and is not simular to the subject of this thread as I see it. I hope for all that have had this experience to share their ponderings in more detail. Thanks again to Sam Pirt for opening this thread.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Apr 99 - 12:03 PM

Mountain Tyme, your music sounds very powerful. What kind of songs do you sing?

Rick


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 30 Apr 99 - 12:18 PM

I think one clue where I am concerned is the number of threads of melody in the piece. Both the Sullivan and the Strauss had multiple lines contributing to the harmony. The Sullivan had two female and two male chorus parts, plus several soloists, and was using melodic harmony lines, which wove in and out of each other (I see a Mudcat analogy here). When we got it right, it became one thing, more than the sum of the parts. DonMeixner referred to the same thing, I think. And that thing occupied all my consciousness, and I was part of it. I know a couple of other things with a similar effect, but not quite the same. One is in a silent Quaker meeting, which becomes "gathered". (Quakerspeak for what we are discussing, I think, when it concerns the power of the Holy Spirit.) This doesn't always happen, but when it does, it is extraordinary. The singing is more physical, obviously. (Don't do much quaking, these days.) I suspect breathing has something to do with it. I wondered last time about contributing a detail from my memory, for which I cannot offer any references, about the effects of medieval church singing. Particularly the word Alleluia. I read that it contributed to changed consciousness and a meditative state. I think that there may be something of the power the Pythagoreans attributed to the action of the sounds, as well. But it's all guesswork.

Because of that piratical experience, I am a little careful about religious experience. I think these things are far more available than religious tradition would like to acknowledge, and that it is rather too easy to assume that such an experience in a religious context is due to God, when it may be due to enthusiastic singing, or inadvertently changing the breathing pattern, and then charge any "information" which accompanies it with a false authority. (Please note that this was the logical side of me making its input, and make the appropriate allowances!)


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 30 Apr 99 - 01:07 PM

Penny, I think that you've got a point about harmony assisting in that sixth sense (I'm not at all surprised that you got it in "Pirates"!); I also agree that there are words which add to the tonal blend (such as "Alleluia") that increase the "out of body " type of experience we're discussing here. Great acoustics, such as big churches and cathedrals have, wonderful singers, that Pythagorean something that is the music of the spheres, all add to it. But there's something else that can happen when the singers aren't trained, the harmonies are minimal, and the feeling in the room is connected, dazzlingly so, and it's really quited different. So I guess there are really many ways to get that magical moment, and they really can't be planned!
Allison


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: mountain tyme
Date: 30 Apr 99 - 07:03 PM

Rick F. 30-Apr. In the days of the cylinders our choice of music style was called "parlour music" as in parlor, the room of the house used to entertain. That era ended by 1905. Ballad I suppose replaced that catagory. Tear-jerker probably stands today. We still use the parlour definetion not only because we do those old songs and styles but also to keep us ever aware we are making a powerfull effort to do something special, from a beautifull lost society of simple values hopes and dreams. Because the lyrics we choose are mostly obscure to most folks, even late model songs we do are assumed to be old because of our old style. Thanks for your interest Rick.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Apr 99 - 10:20 PM

Well, I had this all typed in, went to do something else on the net and lost it, so I hope it comes out as well this time. Actually, I've been meaning to put some of this in the Music Therapy thread and never got around to it. So, this will seem kind of long, but some of you have asked for more info on my brother's stuff, too, so look below and holler at me if you'd like more info, please.

Penny, my brother has studied and written much on the Pythagorian monochord concept and applied it to his theories about preventing earthquakes through use of what we call MetaMusic(tm). He teaches classes in this and has people imagine a giant string, like on a guitar, which resonates when plucked. Along the faultlines would be centers where musicians would intone certain tones to make up one harmonious chord which would coincide with beneficial vibratory rates of the earth. He's got a lot of hard scientific research from many sources, referred to in his booklet, and was a guest speaker at the 1994 or 95 (can't rmember) International Forum for New Science in Ft. Collins, CO. He is writing an expanded book version of this now, which goes into much deeper concepts, etc.

Anyway, to everyone, what I had originally meant to mention was to remember we are not just talking about the audible tones when we play or sing or hear. There are also the sympathetic overtones which vibrate at higher frequencies. When we blend as one, I believe, these are acting as a conduit of Cosmic energy, which in turn gives us that "chill up the spine" feeling. I believe we have, at that point, subjugated our egos, for that of a higher consciousness, where we experience, even for a second, a universal love and oneness with all things.

I feel this esp. when listening to or singing/playing certain pieces of music, including some of the songs from my bro's Second symphony, Mozart, some Native American trad., several Scottish and Irish tunes; as well as others. It seems, to me, to depend more on the tune and its vibes, than the words. When it happens, I can feel a swelling in my heart which washes over me with a feeling of oneness or connectedness with all beings and ultimately what I call the Great Spirit. I can feel such joy from this, that I always cry.

Speaking of two men crying. My dad says he can remember his granddad and a friend of his, both former old West lawmen, singing together, when quite old. He said they would sing certain songs and just sob their eyes out together. One of those songs was Little Bell Brandon. (There is a thread on it).

Here's a few quotes from my bro's first booklet, "Insights of a MetaComposer"(tm) "I have always stated that music is a consciousness modifier; therefore, it is a planetary modifier,also. People who play or listen to music are modifying the environment with changes of consciousness induced by music.

"Music based on universal laws of harmony, (such as the law of octaves in the chemical elements, the septenary colours of the spectrum, etc.), has an uplifting effect on people, plants, and animals, who in turn modify the planet herself.

"The concept then, is to realize that our earthly music has infinite combinations of undertones which reflect, as a mirror, the real tones of the Cosmic state, vibrating at an inconceivably high rate.

"The Universe is a vast scale or keyboard of vibrations and each being, however small, has notes to sing, a part to play.

"Man is a dual being, spiritual-psychic and physical. An aura of high vibratory rate surrounds him and penetrates him. Certain music arouses an exhaltation and uplifting vibration in the auric and physical centers of man.

And for a bit of the more scientific from his booklet, "Earthquake Prevention Through MetaMusic": "The entire scheme of the solar system can be represented with earthly music and put on recordings to listen to! One such recording is the "Planetary Songs" of Johannes Kepler. As we all know, the planets revolve around the Sun in elipses, and vary in speed at perihelion (nearest to the Sun) and aphelion (furthest from the Sun). Kepler compared each(then known) planet's angular velocity at perihelion and aphelion and equated this ratio to a musical interval. "Sliding scales" occur within the extremes of these ratios. For example, Saturn takes 29 1/2 years to go up and down a musical major third. Kepler actually noted all the intervals each planet "intones" and expressed them in 17th century musical notation. These transcendent planetary songs have been accelerated so that humans can hear them in physical sound. One recording is "Harmony of the World", LP 1571, Yale University of Music.

"Though the earthly music is not the same vibration as the tones produced by the actual planets in the aethers, yet such music corresponds as a lower (or higher in some cases) harmonic. In a modern table of the planets' angular velocities as seen from the Sun, the tones generated by all the planets,including Pluto, is given by Dr. Joscelyn Godwin. Of 74 tones produced from the perihelion-aphelion intervals, he points out that 58 belong to the major triad CEG in the modern Western key of C! He says that a belief in Cosmic harmony is justified by this table alone!"

copyright 1987 & 1991 by Delton Lorenzo Hudson

I didn't mean to go off on a bunch of mundane stuff, but wanted to show there is some scientific basis for claiming the things that he does. There's lots more in the booklets. Thanks for listening, but it really is most important to listen to your heart and leave go the explanations, eh?

Love yawl,

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Llanfair
Date: 01 May 99 - 11:51 AM

I've just picked up this thread, and know exactly what you are talking about. I choose songs that connect with me, and I can usually pass on that connection to the people who listen to me. How many of you are left-handed? I have always felt that this has some bearing on one's ability to feel music. Hwyl.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 03 May 99 - 04:38 AM

My duff modem has mysteriously un-duffed itself, so here we are again. I have been thinking back over peak experiences, and having a few, (not up to the Pirates, though). Those two musical experiences were both in the same hall, which may, or may not be relevant. I've been listening to Vaughan-Williams "Serenade to Music", and I think that if I were singing in it, or listening to it in the right place (not my car), there are parts of it which would induce the state. And, katlaughing, I think that what I am listening for when I form that conclusion, is the higher harmonics, as you suggest. But, as I said at the end of my last posting, I think that these experiences are much more available than often recognised. I had on ein the supermarket once, while praying about my sister's family (and there was no musak). I had one when I first swam out of my depth in Dover Harbour, and found that the lift of the sea was quite different, and there was a chop on the waves, with a glitter from the refracted sun. So I'm not surprised at Animaterra's comments. I think that the occupation of the brain so fully that conscious directed thought is suspended is part of it. Oddly, I found myself reading some passages about this sort of thing this weekend, in a Quaker magazine delivered to the base of my pending pile in February, and which I had not opened until this weekend.

This is from a writer called Mary Crago. "The Spirit also comes through when we forget ourselves completely as in art or music or in helping someone else, really listening and giving of ourselves only with love."

I'm ambidextrous, which probably means that I have left-handed brain organisation, but for heaven's sake, Llanfair, don't go suggesting that some people, identifiable by a genetic peculiarity, have a readier access to this sort of experience than others. Imagine the effect on those who don't. I read a series of books once in which the author suggested that characters with her invented capabilities found the experience of God easier than normal people, regardless of moral standing or attitude. Having read that, I started to side with the books' villains. The Spirit bloweth where it listeth. There's a song which may be relevant by Sidney Carter - "Catch the bird of heaven", I think. And, though I've let logic out, and tried to trap the thing in words - how else can we communicate - it is a wild, unpredictable occurrence, as Animaterra says, and we can be ready for it, do the many things which make us open to it, and rejoice in it when it happens. But not try and make rules around it.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 03 May 99 - 04:55 AM

Is that Hwyl, not LLanfair - I thought it was a reference to the subject under discussion. Sorry for getting it wrong.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Llanfair
Date: 03 May 99 - 05:43 AM

Hwyl is Welsh for farewell. I was not by any means suggesting that being "sinister" would make any difference to one's ability to feel music, painting, crafts, or any other way of expression, any more than being born under one of the "sensitive" star signs. It's just that a lot of the people Icome in contact with have equal or right brain dominance, and I was just curious.

At risk of being corrected again, I'm Pisces.

Hwyl.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 03 May 99 - 05:51 AM

What is the word that I was thinking of, about a mood which descends on someone caught up in poetry or preaching, or something?

And someone else thought that hwyl on the end of another of your postings was your name, so I thought i'd better check. People here have interesting bynames.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 04 May 99 - 01:06 PM

Katlaughing, I haven't answered your long posting yet, because I needed to download it and read it properly. Thank you for it. Most of it I have to take on trust, but there's a couple of points I would like to make.

Firstly, I'd be a little wary using the septenary spectrum as a support for the argument, since it is an artifact of the the very theory it is being used to support. People see the spectrum in many different ways: I've seen a medieval version of six colours (drat, lost the reference - must make notes, not think "I can find that again easily") and a number have trouble with indigo. Newton really had to work hard to fit the spectrum to the septenary system he wanted: at first he had five colours. There is actually a continuum of colour across the visible range. I spent part of yesterday afternoon tracking a spectrum across paper on my floor (I couldn't get it anywhere convenient!) and I could not make it fit Newton's diagrams. I don't think it weakens the overall argument, but it gives a point for opponents to pick on.

Secondly, the information about the tones in the perihelion - aphelion relationships suggests to me a connection with some of the other harmonics in the Solar System. There are emerging various resonances between pairs of planets, some of which seem very far distant, with only weak connections through gravity. Venus always shows the same face to us at conjunction, and its orbit and ours are in the ratio 8:5. Mercury, too, always shows the same face when it is the same position relative to the Sun: earlier astronomers thought that it was orbiting the Sun as the Moon orbits us, with the same face to the Sun all the time. Apparently, there is a resonance between Jupiter and Venus, as well. I've discussed this with an astronomer friend (from whom the information comes), and he feels that it is not so much that the planets' gravity has pulled others into such orbits, but that any proto-planets which were NOT in such relationships would have been propelled out of the system, or into other planets. If this is true, then the necessary properties for the formation of a life-bearing planet may be much more rigorous than previously thought, and such planets very rare indeed.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Uilleand
Date: 04 May 99 - 01:25 PM

Hi Penny,

I have some thoughts regarding the difference in recorded color spectra. According to some other theories in the course of evolution of the human species which is still on-going our senses are continuing to develop as well. Some studies show that man may not have always been able to see the same color spectrum, that pastels and colors at each end of the spectrum are a more recent development of our sensory abilities. And as our perception of physical reality and energy changes we will be able to see completely different frequencies, previously thought to be undetectable to the human eye.

Looking at the recent push in symphony orchestras to change tunings to ever higher frequencies I can see some correlations to that theory. Not only is sound and light speeding up, but time seems to as well. Or maybe it's just our relation to all of the above. Maybe more a metaphysics question than straight forward physics.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 05 May 99 - 12:49 PM

Uilleand, Hi. Interesting ideas.

I have seen work suggesting that perception of colour has varied over human history, but it is something that simply cannot be investigated successfully. Even today, there is no way that individuals with full colour vision can be sure that they are seeing colour as others do. We may have differing proportions of colour receptors (there may even be differences between left and right eyes in the same individual). We can only communicate our colour vision by reproducing what we see in pigment or light, or by words. Clearly any differences in perception will be echoed by coloured examples of what we see. (Though in the case of colour blindness, odd choices of pigment would alert observers to the condition.) Equally clearly, words are a severe limit on communication of something like colour. In the first case, we can look at things painted in the past. Where it is possible to reconstruct the pigments, and to take account of changes due to age, people seem to have represented things with appropriate colours where they were available. The limits of language can impose misinterpretations. I have seen it argued that because Homer described the sea as wine-dark, the Greeks of his time could not see blue. Yet this depends on a child's understanding of the colour of the sea, not on true perception. The sea may be wine-dark at certain times and in certain places (I have a photo of sunrise or set which is). There has recently been discussion in, I think, New Scientist, of tribes in the Pacific which have a limited colour vocabulary. But limited vocabulary does not mean limited vision. English has many words for blues greens and reds, but few for yellow - we mostly distinguish shades by adding modifiers. The limits may arise from the limited range of pigments available in the past. We have no way of knowing precisely what people saw in the past, so we can't argue from that in any direction. I do remember a program about a child who had had limited linguistic stimuli in development, who was later educated, and was astonished to find that there were not different words for every shade of colour in a rack of threads. We shape our world by our words.

We are on more certain territory with sound, as ancient instruments can be found and played. Even Neanderthal pipes have been found and the tuning of those is fixed (apparently a full solfa scale, not modal), but I don't know about the changes you cite. Odd, though, as the higher frequencies are those we are more likely to lose early with modern noise pollution.

As to time speeding up, I know what that is. It's age. It really works to the advantage of a teacher, that one. Keep the little dears in for one minute, and it's an aeon to them, no time at all to one of us.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 May 99 - 08:48 AM

Penny, hi. Sorry I've not written back, yet. My brother was having a sort of crisis (in his mind at least) and HE is really the one who needs to get on here and address your posting. I will work on getting him up in by Friday, hopefully, as I don't have time today or tomorrow. Thanks to you and everyone else, though. I find all of this fascinating and would like to see it continue.

All the best,

kat


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 06 May 99 - 12:01 PM

Tell you what, though, I really like leaving this sort of thing to the experience and not trying to explain it. Words tend to clog things up, and get tangled in different people's interpretations of the world. Then people who agree on the experience can get separated by the interpretation.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: Penny
Date: 06 May 99 - 12:04 PM

I'll still be interested to see your brother's work, Katlaughing, so thanks in advance.


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Subject: RE: Your 6th sence
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 May 99 - 04:12 PM

I agree, Penny, experience is much better. The phoaks on the Music Therapy threads were looking for some "mainstream" type validation for what they were experienceing and I never did post the info there, so I probably should have instead of on here, although it was slightly different stuff. Boy, my brain is fried, can you tell?!!!

I'll sign off before I construct more poor sentences! More later. Thanks to you, too.

kat


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