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morality of collecting

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The Sandman 29 May 07 - 07:03 AM
GUEST 29 May 07 - 07:20 AM
Captain Ginger 29 May 07 - 07:21 AM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 09:56 AM
Greg B 29 May 07 - 10:30 AM
dick greenhaus 29 May 07 - 12:23 PM
Surreysinger 29 May 07 - 12:40 PM
Scoville 29 May 07 - 12:43 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 12:43 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 01:18 PM
dick greenhaus 29 May 07 - 01:26 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 01:33 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 01:35 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 02:19 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 02:37 PM
dick greenhaus 29 May 07 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Patronising git. 29 May 07 - 03:35 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 03:38 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 03:41 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 03:45 PM
Malcolm Douglas 29 May 07 - 03:58 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 04:03 PM
M.Ted 29 May 07 - 04:06 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 04:19 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 May 07 - 04:35 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 05:02 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 May 07 - 05:09 PM
Folkiedave 29 May 07 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Russ 29 May 07 - 05:14 PM
The Borchester Echo 29 May 07 - 05:31 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 05:33 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 05:38 PM
The Sandman 29 May 07 - 05:44 PM
dick greenhaus 29 May 07 - 06:21 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 May 07 - 08:34 PM
M.Ted 29 May 07 - 09:31 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 May 07 - 11:06 PM
Jim Lad 29 May 07 - 11:10 PM
dick greenhaus 30 May 07 - 02:58 PM
The Borchester Echo 30 May 07 - 03:01 PM
The Sandman 30 May 07 - 04:03 PM
The Borchester Echo 30 May 07 - 04:08 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 May 07 - 04:18 PM
Folkiedave 30 May 07 - 04:25 PM
The Borchester Echo 30 May 07 - 04:31 PM
The Sandman 30 May 07 - 05:21 PM
Jim Lad 30 May 07 - 05:27 PM
Stringsinger 30 May 07 - 05:40 PM
The Sandman 30 May 07 - 05:44 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 07 - 06:03 PM
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Subject: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:03 AM

Dave Bulmer collected a number of volumes of tunes,he acknowledges his contributors.
I do not know whether they were they acknowledged financially.
what are peoples opinions on the morality of collecting,should contributors be looked after[Financially] in some form or other.
there was previous earlier criticism of the collector[not Bulmer] who collected from Nealy Boyle.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:20 AM

Bulmer & Sharpley collected the tunes and acknowledged the contributers. Most, but not all of the tunes were traditional, without the composer being known. Whether they were "acknowledged financially" or not, I don't know, and neither do you. I would assume that's between Bulmer and whoever contributed the tune. If someone collected a traditional tune from you to put into a collection, would you expect to be paid for it?
Or is this merely an excuse for another "bash Bulmer" thread ?


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:21 AM

Trouble is 'collector' can describe those like Sharp, Broadwood, Baring-Gould, Hammond and Gardner who did so because that is what people of that class did in those days - whether it was moths, stamps or folk-songs, they collected, catalogued and published - and those who collect to make money. The same holds true in the art world; the collector has a status near that of the academic, whereas the dealer is merely trade, however well cut the suit. And often the borders are blurred (as in the case of Charles Saatchi).
And how does one reward a primary source? Do you sign a royalty deal with each one, or given them a one-off payment or just buy them a pint? And, if the material is trad rather than composed by your source, does that make it public domain?
An interesting conundrum, though...


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 09:56 AM

no one is bashing anyone,only asking questions.,and asking for opinions
traditional only means no one remembers who wrote it, although somebody did write all these tunes.[so logically they are somebodies work]
Dave Bulmer collected these tunes and made money from them .
Guest.I stated that I didnt know whether he paid his contributors.,so your remark was unecessary and also agressive.
how one rewards a primary source is a matter of moral judgement.
Dave Bulmer seems a little inconsistent,in his MORAL approach,he does the decent thing to Mick Tems,But then tries to get an injunction to stop Topic producing Games set and Match,which doesnt help Nic Jones,and is in my opinion not the correct moral approach.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Greg B
Date: 29 May 07 - 10:30 AM

I believe if a song is trad it is trad. The primary source didn't
pay for it, and should not be paid for it.

On the other hand, the collector should be paid for his LABOR, not
for the 'creatives' on the song. That means no royalties, no
copyright. Maybe 'copyleft' which puts it in the public domain
with no royalties. So you got paid in 1966 for collecting a song
and for transcribing it, and for putting it in a book and selling
the book. But you don't get paid every time someone performs
the song at a gig or puts it on a record. That's stealing from
the tradition.

And no fair collecting from a primary source and applying music
theory 1A to figure out that the chords are G, C, and D, either,
or putting dots on a page, and claiming copyright, either.

As a collector who doesn't pay primary sources, you get to claim
copyright on the BOOK that you put the song in, on xerographic
copies of the pages themselves, and THAT IS IT.

On the other hand, the collector who does the 'adapted and
arranged by' thing willy-nilly OUGHT to be paying his primary
sources and their descendants, for the prescribed period of
copyright.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:23 PM

Let's face it--the early, great and important collectors weren't particularly "moral" by today's standards. Lomaxes (John A and Alan), Sharp, Kennedy, Grainger, Warner, Henderson....none of them, as far as I know, even considered paying informants or sources. Not to mention Record companies, like Folkways and Leader, who either negotiated contracts which were unnspeakably one sided (by today's standards) or just didn't pay recording artists at all.
      Let's also not forget that, without these people, none of us would have any access to folk music whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:40 PM

That's a bit of a sweeping statement Dick... I can only really speak for Lucy Broadwood,as the one that I know something about, but she certainly did pay some of her contributors. Samuel Willett for instance certainly received payments for songs that he passed on to her whereas Mrs Vaisey was paid in kind - she received a set of handkerchiefs which Lucy took round to her two days after she had collected songs from her; and Lucy forwarded on various gifts of soft furnishings for the house to the family that she had collected songs from in Arisaig. So the method of "payment" varied from actual cash to items in kind (and on a friendly basis) from one singer or contributor to another. The morals of that practice don't seem to be particularly dubious to me, and I'm sure that she can't have been alone in her method of dealing with things .


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Scoville
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:43 PM

If a song is trad, the person from whom it was collected, collected it at some point from someone else, who was more than likely also uncompensated. Trad./unknown composer tunes and songs are fair game. I agree that it goes both ways: A lot of those collecters were patronizing and greedy SOB's but, in the end, they're still the main reason we have access to the music.

Original compositions, on the other hand, ought to be compensated, and no quibbling about arrangements, etc. A lot of comparatively unsophisticated people got royally ripped-off.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:43 PM

Ahem. For Leader read Celtic.

Bill Leader had contracts with his artists which no one in their right minds would sign today. This is because circumstances now are entirely different to those prevailing 35 years ago. Bill operated in two areas:

(1) field recordings of traditional musicians and
(2) young revivalists that no-one else was bothering with.

It is those latter who recorded for his Trailer label to whom Mr Polytunnel appear to be referring. Their contracts involved relinquishing the rights to their work in order to get it out there. Bill was a friend, the artists trusted him and why not? Nothing went wrong till the label went bankrupt and the catalogue sold on. Twice.

These recordings have remained unavailable, along with the unbelievably important field recording, for the past quarter century as recounted at length in innumerable threads passim.

This tragedy has precious little to do with this thread's title and nothing whatsoever to do with Bill Leader and it is both inaccurate and unfair to malign him.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:18 PM

I believe Cecil Sharp,paid some of his sources.did he notpay for Kimbers concertina to be repaired[Correct me if Iam wrong].
Frank Kidson always offered to buy his source a drink.
Dave Bulmer,has at least two tunes in the collectionthat Iam under the impression were composed by Paddy Fahey,I hope he had his permission to use this material,and reimbursed him.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:26 PM

"Bill Leader had contracts with his artists which no one in their right minds would sign today. This is because circumstances now are entirely different to those prevailing 35 years ago."

That's what I said, too. I also pointed out that judging yeaterday's actions by today's standards is nonsensical. Without people like Bill Leader and Moses Asch there wouldn't be a folk "industry".

This thread's title, if you hadn't noticed, is "morality of collecting".
Slinging mud at Mr. Bulmer, if you feel like it, belongs in a different thread. And, (quoting again)"These recordings have remained unavailable, along with the unbelievably important field recording, for the past quarter century as recounted at length in innumerable threads passim.

This tragedy has precious little to do with this thread's title ..."


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:33 PM

yesit has ,Dave Bulmer HAS collected[bought] a lot of other peoples recordings,and has kept them out of the public domain


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:35 PM

Mr Polytunnel

I didn't mention Mr Bulmer. He comes into the Leader/Trailer two steps on from its insolvency. Though his actions/inactions have indeed caused tragedy.

YOU mentioned Bill Leader. Highly inappropriately. He has done nothing wrong. He issued contracts which were common at the time but which would be unacceptable today because of changed circumstances and massively diminished trust.

And he has precious little to do with the thread's title.

Is Logic missing from the Murkan National Curriculum?


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 02:19 PM

Dick Greenhaus,to mention Dave Bulmers attempt to get an injunction against Topic to prevent NicJones[game set and match].,is not mudslinging,.it appearsto be factual
what are your views on Dave Bulmers actions.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 02:37 PM

Yes indeed, Mr Bulmer DID obtain an injunction against Topic over Game Set Match which threatened to delay its release but it was struck out in time for this not to occur. Fortunately for Nic Jones who might have had to repay his advance which he had already spend on private treatment to his ailing kneeke the trouble to.

Mr Greenhouse/Polytunnel however chooses to sling mud all over Bill Leader who was not reponsible for harming a soul. Because, as Mr G belatedly mentions, there wouldn't BE a folk industry without him.

When identifying villains, do take the trouble to know exactly what you are talking about.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:23 PM

Dear Ms. (I assume) Easby-

Apparently you don't read your own postings, along with others you seem to ignore. My quote concerning Mr. Leader (for whom I have nothing but gratitude and respect) came from your posting. I never suggested that he did anything wrong by the standards of folklore collecting some 30 or 40 years ago.

I further quote ; "He issued contracts which were common at the time but which would be unacceptable today because of changed circumstances and massively diminished trust." I agree.

If Bulmer had tried to stop release of "Game Set Match", I would agree that it would have been a reprehensible action. Which, again, has nothing to do with "morality of collecting".

Lastly, if the major force of argument you can bring to bear on this subject is a feeble pun on my surname, I suggest that you might seek out some medical help.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Patronising git.
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:35 PM

Yes Diane, knock the "polytunnel" stuff in the head will you, especially when I'm having a coffee. It's made me do the the nose trick twice now- I don't want to do it again.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:38 PM

Something went extremely wrong with my post of 02.37 in which 'the trouble to' appeared twice, once in the wrong place.

I was trying to talk about Nic Jones' knee which (no thanks to Mr Bulmer) is fixed, thanks to Game Set Match, which CM DID issue an injunction against. No question of 'if'.

Something far worse went wrong with Camsco's initial post when he described Bill Leader's actions as 'unspeakable', a description far more applicable to the Beast of Harrogate, Mr Bulmer.

None of which, obviously, has the slightest relevance to the thread. But if Mr Market Gardener wants to throw herrings about it would be as well for him to ascertain which part of Yorkshire to aim at.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:41 PM

so lucy Broadwood gave some renumeration,as did Frank Kidson.
does anyone know about Sharp or Baring Gould.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:45 PM

Whatever Percy Grainger gave might make for interesting reading . . .


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:58 PM

The major early 20th century song collectors paid their informants for their time, in cash or in kind (not infrequently including alcohol and a nice dinner) or, indeed, in both. As a rule, this was a private matter between collector and singer, but surviving correspondence can sometimes provide details. Of course, there were a lot of people who just picked up the odd song here and there; whatever arrangement they had will have depended on their relationship with the singer.

They weren't 'buying' the songs, but paying the singers for their time and trouble. In cases where the songs were published, this was typically done at a loss. Published versions were frequently edited, collated and arranged for accompaniment, and the editor was entitled to copyright in the resulting version. In practice this was rarely insisted upon, though normal courtesy demanded that permission be obtained for commercial use. On one occasion, Sharp declined permission (he wasn't happy about the proposed use) and was roundly criticized by the gentleman concerned for asserting proprietory rights over a traditional song. Sharp pointed out that only that particular form was at issue; all the fellow had to do was go out and spend his own time and money collecting one of his own; from the same singer if he liked.

Towards the end of his life, Sharp actually started to make a modest profit from publishing, but he was very unusual in this. George Gardiner not only paid his singers, but the collaborators who took down the tunes for him; and the only 'commercial' selection he published had piano arrangements commissioned from the young Gustav Holst. No cash profit there.

That was a century ago. I don't know what precise arrangements might pertain nowadays, but I can tell you that folk music books rarely achieve large sales and make only modest profits; and that small publishers typically pay royalties as a percentage of net, not gross, receipts. If you edit a book for somebody, then (if you haven't actually done it for nothing) you will either get a fee at the time or a royalty on sales; not both.

That, of course, tells you nothing about what arrangements might exist for payments to living source singers/musicians or the heirs of deceased ones in the case of material provided by them and included in new collections. It is necessary to obtain formal permission for the use of material, but I don't think there's any hard and fast rule beyond that. Each case is likely to be different. Note that I'm talking only about print here; different rules apply in sound recordings.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:03 PM

Dick Greenhaus your statement is incorrect.
in an interesting article on CECIL SHARP,in the appalachians available at musical trads by Mike Yates,Sharp says on occassions I gave a generous musical gratuity to stimulate the singers memory.
so Broadwood, Sharp, Kidson,all rewarded their sources in some shape or form.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:06 PM

Mr. Greenhaus;" Record companies, like Folkways and Leader, who either negotiated contracts which were unnspeakably one sided (by today's standards) or just didn't pay recording artists at all."

Ms. Easby . "He issued contracts which were common at the time but which would be unacceptable today because of changed circumstances and massively diminished trust."

When people agree and then fight about it, it is a sign of the last days.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:19 PM

I DON'T agree with the Greenhouse person.

What he wants to do is try to make out Celtic Music is the bees' knees, that Bulmer 'saved' the Leader/Trailer catalogue and that it's Bill Leader's fault that his original contracts are preventing its availability.

All of which is completely wrong and entirely off-topic.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:35 PM

Let me pose a question.

I am going to write a biography of Diane Easby. I ask Dick Greenhause, Captain Birdsey, M.Ted and a few other Mudcatters to share their thoughts. I explain to each of them that I am writing a book and I would like to use their words as commentary in my book, but I can't pay them. At best, I will buy them lunch. They agree to do so.   The book is a runway best seller and I am now purchasing a summer house in the Hamptons.

Do I owe these people money?


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:02 PM

Sod off.

Give ME the money or I don't give permission.

I'd like a house on Long Island too. Montauk, I think . . .


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:09 PM

"Sod off"   Great! I now have a title for my book.

I actually would not need your permission to write a book about you. If the other individuals freely gave their permission to speak, they are not owed a dime either.

This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while "moral" issues may be present, there are also "ethical" questions.   

I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:11 PM

Looks like your biography of Diane will be short and unauthorised Ron!!

I am worried that Diane knows intimate details of the best places to live on Long Island. I am happy to know the best parts of the east coast too, Cleethorpes, Mablethorpe, Bridlington, Scarborough etc........


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:14 PM

This discussion is entirely one sided.
As usual.

The focus is on the collectors and their practices. Nobody ever wants to talk about the collectees and their views on the matter.

Anyway,

A.P. Carter collected material from many sources.
The Carter Family then recorded some of this material and benefitted financially.
RCA Victor also benefitted.
Ralph Peer got the copyrights and made out like a bandit.

The people who were collected noticed this.

As a rule they were quite annoyed by the arrangement.

They felt that they deserved a piece of the pie.

Prima facie I think they have a good point.

I'll bet if you or one of your ancestor's had been such a collectee you'd agree with them.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:31 PM

Once I sat on the harbourfront at Montauk eating lobster-in-the-rough and looking out on an ocean which didn't stop till it reached Portugal (whose Atlantic shore is another favourite place). I'd been walking in the footsteps of Jack Kerouac and collecting bits of driftwood which I still have.

This is absolutely nothing to do with anything and no, Ron, you can't put it in the book. If I choose to share it with everyone here, that's up to me. You can'r copyright it.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:33 PM

Cecil Sharp s collecting in the appalachians was necessary because the music was in danger of extinction,he on occassions rewarded his sources.
Dave Bulmers collecting of irish tunes was different,a considerable number of his tunes were collected from a session that occurred regularly [he acknowledges this in at least one of his books ].so the music was not in danger of dying out when he collected them,were his motives purely financial[Ido not know],possibly a mix of financial and a love of the music.
in my opinion a person who collects music, purely /mostly or partly for financial gain,should renumerate his sources in some form at the very least a drink for everyone..[after all without the musicians/ singers,there would be nothing to collect].
I hope the musicians that Bulmer and Sharpley[a solicitor who I believe was struck off] collected from, at the very least got a free drink.
There are other people who have published books of tunes in the last 30 years who I suspect have been guilty of not renumerating their sources in a morally correct way.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:38 PM

oh, on the subject of The Carter Family[little darling pal of mine]The tune of which was used by Woody Guthrie for This land is my land,.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:44 PM

OH RON I am Captain Birdseye,not birdsey,.is there any such thing as a free lunch[joke].


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:21 PM

I can only point out (again, yet) that the " what I posted was a direct quote from a posting by Ms. Easby. I hold no brief, neither for nor against Mr. Bulmer, I'm not sure whether she's bitching about Bulmer releasing the material (which he's doing) or not releasing it (which he's also doing, albeit with a different portion of the material.

I have no information, one way or another, about Bulmer's fiddle tune collecting. I'll say again that the contracts signed back then were unspeakable BY TODAY'S STANDARDS. They're the same kind of contracts that cost the Kossoy Sisters all rights to their recording of "I'll Fly Away" when it was used in O Brother, Where Art Thou.

Again, by today's standards, repaying a performer with token payments--   "paid in kind - she received a set of handkerchiefs which Lucy took round to her two days after she had collected songs from her; and Lucy forwarded on various gifts of soft furnishings for the house to the family that she had collected songs from in Arisaig" is essentially using their performances with no contract and no royalties. Frankly, though, considering the tiny sales potential of this kind of material, I can't see any other way of doing it.
      There's clearly a difference between being a source for a song and being a performer on a recording that's going to be sold commercially.

Lastly, I'd like to state that I unequivocally honor and am grateful to all the collectors--whether or not I would or did dislike them personally.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:34 PM

Well put Dick!

I've always had mixed feelings about those who served as the "source" for songs. The reason I brought up my tongue in cheek idea of writing a book about Diane is to try to show the situation from a different perspective. A biographer does not need the permission of the subject. What a biographer needs is sources for information, same as a reporter. When a biographer interviews a subject, or when a TV reporter interviews a witness, usually there is no payment.   Some subjects will demand a fee, and it is negotiated.

These collectors did the same. While I am sure there were some that had ulterior motives and did not tell the source their intention, most of the collectors that I have read about did indeed state their purpose and arranged for the song to be transcribed. AP Carter visited his neighbors and asked for songs, many of which he re-wrote, and then they became hits - at that point SOME of the neighbors complained.

I'm with Dick - I applaud the collectors who have kept this music alive and preserved songs that would have been lost to the ages.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 May 07 - 09:31 PM

Ron-So you *don't* want all my amusing anecdotes and recollections about Diane Easby?


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:06 PM

My lawyer will call your lawyer and we will work out a deal :)


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:10 PM

Once every couple of months I seem to trip over a thread like this one. I think we all have mixed emotions about collectors.
I have my heros to thank for the songs they collected and to blame for adding "Arranged & Adapted by..." to each and every song.
Sure, we're singing the songs that they saved but countless others have surely been lost because the more scrupulous collectors had less of a business head on their shoulders.
Are we any better off for their contributions? Probably not but they are.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:58 PM

I don't knew who closed this, or why, but I think it should remain open in case someone has something valuable to say.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 03:01 PM

Blimey, who let the dogs out?


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:03 PM

I believe suggesting that all collectors reimburse there sources,is a valuable thing to say.
never mind the dogs, watch out for the Ferrets.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:08 PM

Ferrets?
Or Rugrats?


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:18 PM

I'd be careful of old dinosaurs


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:25 PM

I do not know how many people know of Ferret Publications - but you ought to.

And a great picture of Lewis with a ferret....

http://www.geocities.com/ferretpublications/


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYX1t9un-Mc&mode=related&search=


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:21 PM

Im sure ferret publications are very reputable.
Then there is also ferret music, A D TOWNSEND gent,a collection of English country dance tunes,compiled and arranged by A D Townsend Gent,published 1982,which carries an advert for Celtic music.
Im sure this publication is perfectly reputable,and hope that A.D got permission from Bob Cann to publish uncles jig[Bob Canns Uncle]family jig[BobCann].,Oscars jig etc.
of coure at this time alot of people like Katie Howson,Flowers and Frolics,OldSwan,NellieTheElephant,,were playing these tunes so there was no danger of them being forgotten.
I just hope that all future collectors at least buy their contributors a drink,as Im sure A D Townsend did.
A good collection of English Tunes,anyway.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:27 PM

Dick Greenhaus: "I don't knew who closed this, or why, but I think it should remain open in case someone has something valuable to say."

Was this directed at me or just poorly timed & stated on your part?


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:40 PM

The licensing organizations have grown increasingly powerful. Collectors are really not recognized by them because song royalties are considered individual intellectual property. The licensing organizations exist through collecting these royalties.

Collectors such as Lomax, Goldstein, Archie Green etc. have created an awareness that there is such a thing as American folk songs and folk music. Without these collectors there would be no Mudcat or folk music revival.

I believe the solution is a special fund for PD material so that claimants have no jurisdiction over royalty distribution and can't publish or claim authorship of songs that are PD. This will not be popular with publishers, licensing organizations and songwriters who make big money from their songs.

In this way, the PD song (ie: folk music belonging to the people) will be protected from financial interests.

This would not impede the copyrights of legitimate songwriters, publishers and licensing organizations.

Frank


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:44 PM

Does PD mean public domain.


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Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:03 PM

QUOTE From: WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM

"This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while 'moral' issues may be present, there are also 'ethical' questions.   

I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue."

Yes indeed, there are other sides to the issue all right. Here's one of them. One of the very finest singers in the English or any other tradition made some sublime albums. The rights to those recordings passed to a bloke who will not allow this wonderful man to make a single penny from them, in spite of the fact that he came upon very hard times and was unable to perform ever again.   Please do not bore me with you weasel moral, ethical or contractual issues.


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