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Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer

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Tyke 26 May 07 - 10:28 AM
Tyke 26 May 07 - 10:29 AM
Tyke 26 May 07 - 10:49 AM
GUEST 26 May 07 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Diane Easby 26 May 07 - 11:19 AM
Tyke 26 May 07 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,Spidey Bobe 26 May 07 - 12:42 PM
Folkiedave 26 May 07 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M 26 May 07 - 02:35 PM
Folkiedave 26 May 07 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 26 May 07 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 27 May 07 - 04:31 AM
Surreysinger 27 May 07 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Diane Easby 27 May 07 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,baz parkes 27 May 07 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,baz parkes 27 May 07 - 07:44 AM
Surreysinger 27 May 07 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Diane Easby 27 May 07 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 27 May 07 - 07:51 AM
The Sandman 27 May 07 - 07:57 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 27 May 07 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Diane Easby 27 May 07 - 08:54 AM
The Sandman 27 May 07 - 10:00 AM
Tyke 27 May 07 - 12:33 PM
Tyke 27 May 07 - 12:46 PM
Tyke 27 May 07 - 12:51 PM
GUEST 27 May 07 - 12:53 PM
Folkiedave 27 May 07 - 01:23 PM
The Sandman 27 May 07 - 01:28 PM
Tyke 27 May 07 - 03:21 PM
The Sandman 27 May 07 - 04:15 PM
Tyke 27 May 07 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Mary Brennan 27 May 07 - 07:39 PM
Surreysinger 27 May 07 - 08:52 PM
Folkiedave 28 May 07 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,buspassed 28 May 07 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,Mary Brennan 28 May 07 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 28 May 07 - 06:31 AM
The Sandman 28 May 07 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Point of information..................... 28 May 07 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Diane Easby 28 May 07 - 07:46 AM
Tyke 28 May 07 - 07:51 AM
Tyke 28 May 07 - 07:54 AM
Tyke 28 May 07 - 07:54 AM
Tyke 28 May 07 - 07:56 AM
Tyke 28 May 07 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 28 May 07 - 08:26 AM
The Sandman 28 May 07 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 May 07 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Diane Easby 28 May 07 - 09:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:28 AM

That last post was me i lost my cookie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:29 AM

Buss passed.
Yes ok Mike didn't say in words that he had a copy of the master tape
However the way he said my lips are sealed inferred that he did. What a lovely man Mike Waterson is but I don't think I'll buy a Horse of him. Far too good a wheeler-dealer for me to tackle I think.

As for CD's verses CDR's it could be the cost of the glass master or what ever they call it used pressing. I have been asking what the minimum pressing is for a CD in today's market. CD's verses CDR I am told that the technology has come on leaps and bounds. Then again I am old enough remember watching tomorrows world when CD's came out and being told that they were indestructible so far as scratches and finger marks were concerned. I play CDR's in the car, which I do have to replace as they like CD's are affected by the heat and the cold and being dropped.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:49 AM

Captain Birdseye come, come tell me what is a Pricknine is I tried to look up your website. But all I found was fish fingers and frozen peas.

However if you are Dick Miles then all people have to do is to look on your website realize that you are in your own small way also have a record distribution business.
On that site they can listen to your music and voice and decide for themselves if the re-releasing of your Albums is commercial viable proposition for anyone.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 07 - 11:11 AM

sixth sense

tyke = Bulmer?

Bulmer = tyke?

Or do you all know that already but aren't letting on?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 26 May 07 - 11:19 AM

SHINING BRIGHT (VARIOUS ARTISTS) TSCD519

Cut and pasted from the Topic site as it's so crap you can't bookmark and link to individual pages

        
John Pashley's Phoenix New Orleans Parade Band Bright Phoebus
John Brunton tenor saxophone, Eugene Farrar trombone, Philip Kampen sousaphone, Howard Maude bass drum, John Pashley trumpet, Dave Stanley snare drum

        
Linda & Teddy Thompson Evona Darling
Linda Thompson vocals, Teddy Thompson vocals and acoustic guitar, Van Dyke Parks
        
Dick Gaughan Scarecrow   
Dick Gaughan vocals and guitar

        
Martin Carthy Never The Same
Martin Carthy vocal, The Wrecking Crew: Sophie Sirota viola, Howard Gott violin, Jackie Norrie violin, Sarah Willson 'cello, Andy Waterworth double bass. Arranged and conducted by Robert Kirby

        
Norma Waterson Song For Thirza
Norma Waterson vocals, Eliza Carthy violin, Martin Carthy guitar, Ben Ivitsky violin

        
Christy Moore Piper's Path
Christy Moore vocals, Donal Lunny bouzouki, Declan Sinnott guitars

        
The Eliza Carthy Band Child Among The Weeds
Eliza Carthy vocals and fiddles, Lucy Adams backing vocals, Martin Green piano accordion and piano, Barnaby Stradling bass guitar and piano, Sam Thomas drums

        
Helen Watson & Heather Greenbank Shine
Helen Watson vocals and guitar, Heather Greenbank electric guitar and backing vocals
The Wrecking Crew: Sophie Sirota viola, Howard Gott violin, Jackie Norrie violin, Sarah Willson 'cello, Andy Waterworth double bass, string arrangement by Robert Kirby

        
Billy Bragg & the Blokes Danny Rose
Billy Bragg vocals and guitar, Ben Mandelson Vietnamese lap steel and Fender bajo sexto, Lu Edmonds electric guitars, Ian McLagan Hammond B3 organ, Martyn Barker drums and percussion, Simon Edwards bass guitar

        
Maddy Prior Winifer Odd
Maddy Prior vocals, Rosie Kemp vocals, Rick Kemp everything else

        
Christine Collister & Oliver Knight Marvellous Companion
        
Jody Stecher & Kate Brislin One Of Those Days
Kate Brislin vocals, Jody Stecher vocals and guitar


Dayteller Fine Horseman   
Jim Boyes vocals and electric guitar, Barry Coope keyboards, Steve Page percussion, Sam Smith oud, Gary Warmington stick bass

Richard Thompson Red Wine Promises
Richard Thompson vocals and guitar


Blue Murder Bright Phoebus
Jim Boyes, Eliza Carthy, Martin Carthy, Barry Coope, Lester Simpson, Mike Waterson and Norma Waterson vocals, Martin Carthy acoustic guitar

produced by David Suff for Deep Sea




Not a 'Watersons re-recording' of Bright Phoebus but a completely new production using different artists.

.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 11:56 AM

There is no truth in the rumore about Diane Easby and Dave Bullmer!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 26 May 07 - 12:42 PM

Ciderman, ciderman
Hid the tapes in the back of a van


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:07 PM

Tyke=Bulmer
Bulmer=Tyke.

Nope......


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:35 PM

Its very difficult to respond sensibly to Tyke's rather primitive evaluation of the Earth's Magnetic Field. The fact is that , as Ralphie says, it is too weak. Don't worry about it. The strength of the Earth's magnetic field is far too weak ...about 0.5 Gauss...to do much. A typical magnet capable of serious damage to magnetic disks or tapes requires several hundred Gauss at very close range.

The problem here is that the "economy" driven Bulmer might store the tapes in close proximity to another kind of damaging source - the loudspeaker, for instance. I doubt if he has even the basic disciplines required to create a proper tape store - ie one that is substantially free of fluctuations of light, heat, cold and humidity, not to mention odd bits of old iron that we are led to believe he collects routinely.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:43 PM

Of course the the Earth's gravity is weak.

Otherwise you would never be able to pick up.....well a full pint for example!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:30 PM

Tyke.

You are doing well today.
Cut and paste coming up.

1 "You won't come out and admit that you are wrong about magnetic tape and the earth's magnetic field."

Ok, name one single reel of tape that has ever been damaged by The Earth's Mag Field, and back it up with a little bit of real science.

2. "Now you tell us that you are a poor pensioner and that you haven't got the money to buy the Leader catalogue fro Dave Bulmer."

How patronising. "Poor pensioner" indeed! True I've left work at the BBC, but my pension is not due for another 12 years. (thats 65 minus 12 which makes my age to be 53. Oh and yes, I don't have the money.


3. "You have appointed yourself as a spokes person for every artist under a Leader catalogue."

No, I haven't. as is well known to regular readers here, my allegiance is predominately to Nic Jones and his family.
I was asked to produce the Unearthed Double CD a few years ago, and that was when I discovered the rest of this mess.

But to get back on topic (No not the label)
With the R4 prog re Bright Phoebus, it just seemed a good time to alert casual readers as to what is missing. And maybe to warn potential newcomers that all is not what it it seems in the record business.

4. "But you won't talk to Dave Bullmer!"

First true thing you've said, and, I won't, for all the reasons stated many times before.

5 "Twenty-Five Years ago, which is according to you when Dave bought the catalogue the world, was a different place we had a mining industry and three television channels.

What has that got to with anything? (Herring alert)

6 "We did not have the National Lottery Funding the Arts. You could approach them Ralphie mind you how far you would get when you explain that you won't speak to Dave Bulmer."

I very much doubt that any Arts Council or Lottery organisation would touch Celtic Music knowing their (alleged) track record.

7 "You won't speak to Dave Bulmer because you are frightened of Sharply hasn't he been struck off."

No, I won't. Others more powerful than me have tried and failed. Quite honestly, I just couldn't afford the court cases.

8 "You understand that Dave has done nothing illegal you just want to shout do the deal Dave."

Name one time that I have ever said that Dave did not have legal rights to the whole of the Leader catalogue? Not in dispute, never was, never will be. But, I don't think asking Dave to do a deal on humanitarian grounds is that far out of order.
Mea Culpa If occasionally I might get angry. But, people are losing much needed income because of all this mess.

9 "Ralphie you are worried about the storage conditions of the master tapes. Why not go up to Harrogate and have a look a Dave Bullmer's premises. If Dave Bullmer is sitting on tapes that are worth, according to you, a small fortune do you really think that he would not store them correctly?"

Don't need to. Just a signed / dated / legally binding document stating that the tapes were safe (on some particular date) would do nicely. (One that would hold up in court, and could be verified by an independent expert in the field of tape reclamation).
As for fortunes, well maybe 10 or so titles might sell reasonably well, but I can't see them qeueing round the block for Cecilia Costello or Billy Pigg!!

10 "As for the NOT lost Album Bright Phoebus have a listen again to the programme Mike Watersons did claim to have a copy of the master tape by saying my lips are sealed. Dave Bullmer did speak about the Album on the programme. The Watersons we have been told re recorded some of the tracks and they have been released on another Label."

This has already been answered accurately by Diane. Why the re-record??
Because even Topic records couldn't get an answer out of Dave Bulmer with regards to the original recordings of BP.

11 "Oh and whilst you pontificate about not speaking to Dave Bulmer now or in the past you should be aware that there is a possibility that some the laws on Copy Right are about to change. Perhaps you do know that hence the demands for Dave to do the deal now. You seem to want Dave to dip into his pension fund and reduce its value."

Actually I didn't, but it would explain a lot. Mind you If he hangs on much longer, there won't be many people left who remember any of it!

12 "Trust is a two-way street Ralphie talk to Dave Bulmer."

Trust? Trust? Trust????

Good Grief

Ralph Jordan (Note the no " Kind Regards")


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:31 AM

Morning Tyke.
Very quiet today.
Cat got your tongue?
Actually, this is a thank you to Andy IOM.
Gauss...YES!! That was the word I was searching for!!
Well that is one Red Herring that's gone into the pot!

Onwards and Upwards.
Just feeling sorry for all festival goers this weekend. Rain sheeting down here in London Town.

Have managed to revive my Record player, and am listening to the LP of BP.
IMHO, well ahead of it's time, very strange imagery, What a sad loss to the world.

Have a nice day Y'all

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:15 AM

Rain is also sleeting down here in Guildford 3 hours later, and the skies are looking unrelenting grey. Deep envy here at your ability to listen to your copy of BP, Ralphie - mine is sitting around without the wherewithal to play it on .....thinks - must go and buy one of those "retro" combination machines that seem to play every type of medium including vinyl, and which they keep advertising in those brochures that come with the Radio Times and similar .... sigh!

BTW - I'm enjoying the physics lessons so far - this thread is also educational! [grin]


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:29 AM

Think I'll go to Tesco.
Just to check the racks for CD-Rs.
With digitised vinyl on the phones.
Then to the pub to test gravity theories on pint glasses.
So glad I'm (still) not in Chippers . . .


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:32 AM

Ralphie and surreysinger...it's also sheeting down in North Shropshire...and presumably in Chester where we have a gig in a few hours....I just love unloading the van in the rain...

Just for the record, Ralphie certainly hasn't "appointed" himself as any kind of spokesperson for Leader artistes. I count myself lucky to be close friends with two such who have been fighting the struggle for years. I'm not prepared to name them,asI'm not sure they lurk here. If they do, they'll let us know....if they wish

What I do find sad is that it's taken a (fairly) obscure R4 prog to bring this to the notice of lots of people

Cheers mdears

Baz


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:44 AM

Not that I don't also count myself lucky to be a friend of Ralphie's, of course

Me again


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:48 AM

Re your final sentence, Baz - yes, it's sad - but at least (hopefully) it may have served the purpose of bringing the issue in front of a number of people who were still unaware of the issues involved.

Hope the gig goes well - and that the rain will have eased off before you need to unload the van!! Looking out of the window, there seems to be some non-grey light on the horizon - maybe I can duck out to Sainsbury's later on to replenish the food stores, and see humanity scurrying around in feverish fashion in the High Street !! Could even follow the Countess' CD-R hunt lead - although it might be more fun trying to find the folk section in HMV!!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:49 AM

It's those who know about it but don't care that bother me.
It's that talking bird again, taking the high moral ground even when muddling up the plot of Young Hunting.

If I had an arrow in my hand
And a bow bent on a string
I'd fire it o'er that light brown heart
Among the leaves so green


And I like that bit 'Martian Carthy' nicked for FFOSM about burning the villain 'like hokey green'.

I'm not vindictive . . .


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:51 AM

Baz
Thanks for your support..(although I think your need is greater than mine!)
People have told me to back off, and let it go. Have to admit that this whole situation is doing my head in.
But, having listened to my LPs of Tony Rose, Bandoggs, Phoebus, and a copy of Ms Costello this morning, This is a part of our heritage that has been lost.
I just can't let it go. Sorry!
Tufty Swift... Another lost record (Bakewell Tart)

Baz. Really looking forward to our meeting at Sidmouth.
As for the rest. Dog/Bone...rearrange

All the Best (and keep your raincoat handy)

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:57 AM

Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable.
The New Mexborough Concertina Quartet,and the sort of music we played is not represented by my music clips [so your comments are off beam].
Lastly my online shop has been successful,in the time it has been operating[5 months]I have just this month covered the cost of setting the website up.
prickine was the word used not pricknine,.
come down to west cork ,and you will find out what happens to prickines.they may get treated like royalty they may not.,remember this IS the rebel county,.[heres to the boys of kilmicheal, so honest so gallant and true who put upthe Green flag of Erin and tore down the Red White and Blue].


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:38 AM

Captain B, maybe if you try spelling it Prickeen? Or maybe (in totally fake Irish) pricín (the fada over the I isn't really coming through on the screen - it's that little diagonal line above the letter, as in French accents).

ín (een in English) is a diminutive e.g. Roisín = little rose etc.

Geddit?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:54 AM

As in (minion to Peter Mandelson about the New Labour logo): 'Isn't there something missing from the stem of that rose?'

Peter: 'No, absolutely not. We have enough pricks in this party already'.

That it?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 10:00 AM

prickeen,is right,thanks.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:33 PM

Sorry to have to tell you this but the sun is shining here. I'm away playing singing and generally enjoying myself whilst you seem to just want to do is stay home and whine into your Computers.

I'm not making any comment about artistic integrity or musical ability, Captain Birdseye, or who is on what Album. I have asked people to visit your web site, Dick Miles, and to decide if they think reissuing your Albums is a commercial proposition at this time. Sorry I did not realize that you wanted to capitalize on Martin Carthy playing Guitar on your Album "Cheating the tide". Would Martin Carthy receive a share or the lion's share of the profits from your record company from the sales of this Album?

For someone who seems to be trying to throw personal insults, Dick, you don't seem to be doing a great job. Now, Dick, you seem to think that you, Dick, can say that I would be putting my own personal safety at risk by visiting West Cork. Or are you, Dick, saying that it is a general warning to any one that you presume is English not visit Eire and in particular West Cork. Don't seem to be the best place in the world for an English concertina player to earn a living. Still as I can see from you photograph, Dick, it take all types to make a world Dick.

Please visit the Dick Miles website where you can purchases all his Albums and books however don't forget his own personal recommendation for and I quote "one good thing Dave Bulmer did, was to publish,2 0R WAS IT THREEvolumes of Irish tunes."


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:46 PM

Sorry Ralphie I thought you said you had retired I naturally thought you would have a pension and be a pensioner. I don't think this is the place to discuss your reasons for leaving the BBC. However would you now describe yourself as a Record Producer?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:51 PM

How are the Bright Phoebus sales going Dave?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:53 PM

Great keep up the good work Tyke


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:23 PM

The words hole, digging and stop and Tyke, come to mind, not necessarily in that order.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:28 PM

TYKE,I very much doubt if cheating the tide will ever appear as a cd,It is not up to me, but to the man who legally owns the mastertapes,however I strongly suspect that if he still owns the mastertapes, they are probably beyond salvation,.
I am concerned about what is morally right.
whether Martin Carthy received anything is not up to me ,as I do not own the mastertapes.,they are owned BY Bulmer.Bulmer has not agreed to sell them to me,your diatribe is a flight of fancy.,this claptrap about me benefiting, is also in the realms of fantasy.no one is benefiting at the moment.
you clearly lack a sense of humour,prickeens are not of sufficient significance,to bother wasting physical energy upon.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:21 PM

Oh Dick you sound upset Dick! Why? I did such a nice blue clicky link to your website Dick. When everyone gets back from the holidays you should sell out.

Oh I wonder why Dave Bullmer has decided not to sell you the Master tape Dick.
Could it be to do with your less than polite manner and your threats when you can't get your own way Dick?

Oh and Dick this is a Question Mark ? Its use means that it is a question not a statement. The avoidance of answering the question usual means that people has some thing to hide.

So as you produce your own CD's and market them through your own company.

Please answer these questions if you did get to own the Master tape and the right to re- release Cheating the Tide.

Would you produce Cheating the Tide as stated by you CD or produce it on CDR?

If you were where going to produce it on CD what would be the Minimum number of CDs that you would have to order in today's market?

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CD? (Not including royalties)

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CDR? (Not including royalties)

How much would the retail selling price be for this re-release?

As an independent record producer / publisher based in a different country how do you view the morality trading copyrights on the world market?

How much of a share of any profits made would go to Martin Carthy as I quote (cut and paste again)
"Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable."?

Come on Dick we all want to know.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:15 PM

Tyke,,This is an irrelevance.Dave Bulmer owns the mastertapes[for the last 16 /17 years approximately],he has not sold them to me,.
I had a perfectly polite conversation with him, he refused to sell them to me .,
many years later he still has done nothing with them.
What we all want to know apart from you, Tyke, is what does Bulmer intend to do about ALL the tapes /recordings in his possession,and what are the condition of all the mastertapes.
I have not threatened anyone, I said come down to west cork and you may get treated like royalty you may not,as you pointed out I am an english concertina player living in west cork,Iam ENGLISH[Partly IRISH partly GERMAN]have made my living for many years in English Folk clubs and festivals[as Iam sure you know ].quoting THE SONG The Boys of Kilmicheal,is not a threat,nor is stating that Cork is The rebel county,it was an attempt to bring a little levity to the subject matter,
now ,will you please stop trying to muddy the waters.,


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:20 PM

Answer the questions Dick or it is you who is trying to muddy the water.
So as you produce your own CD's and market them through your own company.

Please answer these questions if you did get to own the Master tape and the right to re- release Cheating the Tide.

Would you produce Cheating the Tide as stated by you CD or produce it on CDR?

If you were where going to produce it on CD what would be the Minimum number of CDs that you would have to order in today's market?

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CD? (Not including royalties)

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CDR? (Not including royalties)

How much would the retail selling price be for this re-release?

As an independent record producer / publisher based in a different country how do you view the morality trading copyrights on the world market?

How much of a share of any profits made would go to Martin Carthy as I quote (cut and paste again)
"Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable."?

Come on Dick we all want to know.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:39 PM

I don't.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:52 PM

Nor do I.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:28 AM

Me neither - in fact who else apart from George wants to know?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:43 AM

Martin Carthy might!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:09 AM

Would he be any relation of Martian Carthy?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:31 AM

A run of 1000 CDs including paperwork and shrinkwrap was around £800 last time I got a quote. These figures are coming down all the time. So even at trade prices you'd only have to sell about 150 copies to break even - not an impossible target for a Nic Jones album, I'd have thought.

I wasn't aware that paying royalties to session musicans was general procedure.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:23 AM

Buspassed, you owe me an apology,Martin Carthy was paid as a session musician in 1985.,HE is /was perfectly happy with the arrangement.
my cds tutors etc,is a complete red herring,the thread is not about Dick Miles ,but about Dave Bulmer.
Dick Miles has worked 30 years as a professional musician,has always treated people honestly,and can sleep every night with a clear conscience.,now lets get back to the thread.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Point of information.....................
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:31 AM

Bulmer & Sharpley released 4 volumes of Irish dance music, plus one compilation of tunes from Sean Maguire [RIP].


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:46 AM

Yes, those well-known music publishers Bulmer'n'Sharpley (hah!) issued these volumes from Celtic Music in Louth 33 years ago.
They've been out of print for ages.
It's a ploy they use for 'saving the tradition'.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:51 AM

Captain Birdseye (dick miles) Answer the questions you are avoiding to prove to us that you have nothing to hide. Good on you Busspassed at least you have realized. that the pot is calling the kettle black.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:54 AM

Oh and it was you that brought up "Cheating the tide" Captain Birdseye in the first place and then you say that it's a red herring, it's muddying the waters.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:54 AM

Time for a quote again

"Subject: RE: BS: Lizzie - dyslexia
From: Folkiedave - PM
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:05 PM

I have taught people with dyslexia for a number of years.

I used to take students to N. Wales on a residential for a week designed to assist with group cohesion. One student was severely dyslexic and up to that point the others had tended to avoid him since he had difficulty contributing to group work.

Once we got to the bit on the residential when the students had problems to solve, (get across Bala using a 50 gallon oil drum and a paper clip sort of thing) James could not see why it was a problem and could solve those trials as a matter of course!! He soon became the person in most demand."

You may not understand why Dick Miles should answer the questions Folkiedave but it is obvious to me. Think about the questions and think about all the things Dave Bullmer is being accused of. The answers to those questions should tell you why Dave Bullmer is still in business whilst all those other small record companies have gone to the wall. Then just maybe you will understand how to get across the Bala in a barrel.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:56 AM

That is an investment of £1,832.35 plus the cost of checking the paperwork for each album if that is the minimum run, not for getting the artwork and printing. However for Dave to make every one happy he would have to produce ever album he owns the rights too. That is a more than a serious amount of money for any one. The logistics of storing Millions of freshly made CD's. Even then with the price of the original collectable market falling, including Folkiedave stock, Some Artists who are still producing Albums are not going to be happy for one reason or another.
You have answered two of the questions Dick Miles who has his own international record company. He would like to buy the rights to Cheating the Tide because I quote "Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable. Assuming this is correct he stands to make a profit of over £11000 pounds and not pay Martin Carthy a penny.

Proof enough that he has his own reasons for saying quote "Bulmrer is a complete bollox.Ihope he rots in hell." And it aint to do with our valuable "Folk heritage" or providing for ageing Folk Artists.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:56 AM

Slurryslinger :- I notice that the only person you have pulled up for typo's is just myself.
I presume having spotted many typos from others when I have done the cut and paste thing. That I was correct "Surreysinger I was being sarcastic I'm not really sorry. I plain and simple you have made no comment about other contributors Typo's, as they seemed to take your point of view."


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:26 AM

"That is an investment of £1,832.35 plus the cost of checking the paperwork for each album if that is the minimum run, not for getting the artwork and printing."

I'm not sure where the figure of £1,832.35 comes from, Tyke, but the figure of £800 I mentioned did include printing of the cover art (an 8-page booklet in the case of my quote). What it did not include was the cost of resetting original LP artwork to CD format, although that's the kind of job I could probably manage on my home computer and even if put out to commercial tender I can't see it inflating the costs that much.

"However for Dave to make every one happy he would have to produce ever album he owns the rights too."

Who has been asking for that? The Nic Jones albums would be a good start in anyone's book - maybe the profits could subsidise the release of Cecilia Costello or O. J. Abbott?

I'm still not clear why (in the hypothetical event of his re-releasing "Cheating the Tide" on his own label) Dick should be expected to pay Martin over and above his original, agreed session fee.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:27 AM

Tyke ,youare trying my patience ,my buying of my own work from Dave Bulmer is at this stage hypothetical.
supposing the master tapes are salvageable,after twenty years,and assuming Dave Bulmer sells them to me[of what commercial value they are to me ]depends on what he asks for them and how salvageable they are.[over 15 years of being denied my own work,I may not be entitled to legal compensation,but morally I feel I am due something ]
the pot is not calling the kettle black,.
I do not own or hoard anyone elses work, Dave Bulmer does.
Iam not an INTERNATIONAL RECORDING COMPANY I am a musician,who has never received any royalties from any recording companies apart from Brewhouse.I have produced two cds,on my own label.
I wish to have control over my own recordings,for what should be obvious reasons,rather than let them fall into the hands of others who might keep them out of the public domain,as has been done with Cheating THE tide for the last 15/18 years .
I have 3 cds on my website.,Boxing Clever has sold 800 COPIESin 8 years[100 copies a year],Your comparisons are ridiculous
Dave Bulmer has the complete Leader CATALOGUE.,including Nic Jones,who can no longer work as a professional musician.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:57 AM

George.
This scattergun approach at Herring Flinging is becoming ridiculous.
I may be entirely wrong, but, I'm sure that all Dick Miles wants is the ownershio and publishing rights to be returned to him at a fair price.
Dave Bulmer is not prepared to even negotiate that.

If (big if) Dick were to regain the rights etc to his work, then it would up to Dick if he ever thought about re releasing. It might be that he didn't think it would be worth it, but, at least he would have the choice so to do.
So, all your Flim Flam about pressing costs/ CD v CD-R is just that.

I'm sure that Dick and Dave could strike a deal, whereby Celtic could be cut in on any future release, lets face it he's eaning diddly squat at the moment, and he wouldn't have to front up the production costs himself. Win Win I would say.

As for guest artists appearing on CDs. I'm with Brian Peters on this one, I've never even heard of any Guest being paid anything a flat fee for the work that they do.
Yes, in the rock world, there is a system called "points"
A Guest artists may waive there session fee, and opt for points instead (Points are a percentage of sales, not sure exactly what, but getting a 1 point deal for playing on an Elton John CD could be incredibly lucrative!)
The folk scene....Nah!

I've played on several albums, always for a flat fee. If any of them went platinum, well good luck to the artist I say. Nowt to do with me.

Oh, and I'm assuming your use of the word "Slurryslinger" was just a symptom of your dyslexia (which I've never mentioned by the way)
It couldn't have possibly been a very childish insult could it?? Oh No !!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 09:02 AM

Purely for the sake of getting the 300, I'd like to point out that English cowpat music is really quite nice and the slurrysinger might be flattered.


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