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Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer

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The Sandman 19 May 07 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,dontwannapostmyrealnametonight 19 May 07 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,dontwannapostmyrealnametonight 19 May 07 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Ciderhead 19 May 07 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 19 May 07 - 09:44 AM
Jos 19 May 07 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc 19 May 07 - 10:27 AM
BB 19 May 07 - 02:40 PM
The Borchester Echo 19 May 07 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc 19 May 07 - 11:41 PM
Roger the Skiffler 20 May 07 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M 20 May 07 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 20 May 07 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,buspassed 20 May 07 - 05:24 AM
Jos 20 May 07 - 06:26 AM
Surreysinger 20 May 07 - 07:53 AM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 21 May 07 - 05:36 AM
Folkiedave 21 May 07 - 06:00 AM
HipflaskAndy 21 May 07 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,buspassed 21 May 07 - 10:27 AM
Folkiedave 21 May 07 - 10:40 AM
HipflaskAndy 21 May 07 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,buspassed 21 May 07 - 01:21 PM
The Borchester Echo 21 May 07 - 01:36 PM
Folkiedave 21 May 07 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,buspassed 21 May 07 - 02:12 PM
Tyke 21 May 07 - 02:38 PM
Folkiedave 21 May 07 - 02:44 PM
The Borchester Echo 21 May 07 - 03:05 PM
Tyke 21 May 07 - 03:20 PM
GUEST, bystander 21 May 07 - 03:24 PM
HipflaskAndy 21 May 07 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 21 May 07 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,bystander 21 May 07 - 06:51 PM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 21 May 07 - 07:59 PM
GUEST, bystander 22 May 07 - 03:05 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M 22 May 07 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 22 May 07 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc 23 May 07 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 23 May 07 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 23 May 07 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 23 May 07 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 23 May 07 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Rallphie 23 May 07 - 10:25 AM
The Sandman 23 May 07 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,Deeply Despondent 23 May 07 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 23 May 07 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Who Knows who 23 May 07 - 03:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:08 AM

RALPHIE it is about releasing the recordings,and at the same time who owns the publishing rights,I know I am only a minor player in this [2 LPS and one set of master tapes ],but as far as I am concerned if my cds were released [most of the material was traditional,a few self penned songs]and I had 50 per cent of all Radio and publishing royalties,Iwould be happy.
The only company that has ever given me my due royalties has been Brewhouse.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwannapostmyrealnametonight
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:04 AM

hi Jos.. what tracks are the faults on..?

I've still not found time to get headphones on for a proper listening session..

and probably wont until the mrs lets me have an hour of peace and quiet on my own..

but I'll run through tne problem tracks asap if you tell me which ones..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwannapostmyrealnametonight
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:07 AM

though considering the circumstances..

I've payed a lot more for much worse sound quality bootlegs
back when I had a decent salaried job
and weekends enjoying scouring Camden market CD stalls


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ciderhead
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:34 AM

oh no not again !

Why is my favourite West Country knock out juice
constantly blighted by association with such disreputable surnames ?

Thatchers and Bulmers !

bugger !!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:44 AM

Hi Ciderhead.
Very unfortunate name of beverage on two counts!!
Maybe a rethink is required??
As for Jos and Mr "Long name!!"
Have not heard the CD version of BP, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear analogue surface noise on it, as I have a strange feeling that they were produced from the original vinyl. Not the master tapes.
(This makes me fear for the state of the original Masters, no matter who owns them)
Will continue to follow this with interest.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Jos
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:16 AM

Hi, Guest,don't...tonight. It's track 7: Magical Man, about a minute in - I thought at first it might be a deliberate jump to suggest a magic trick as it is followed by a gasp, but there are also jumps on track 10: Shady Lady, at just under two minutes in, and on track 12: Bright Phoebus, at a bit less than two and a half minutes. It's as if it jumps out of the groove and lands back in at roughly the same place.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:27 AM

hi jos, ok..

will check it out asap I get home tonight.

Btw.. if the 'Bulmer' collection of master tapes has been lost due to negligent archiving..

then it is the duty of any responsible future legitimate CD release project
to compile master CDs from the best quality tracks
from as many 'mint' vinyl LPs as available..

but sadly, even sealed 'mint' unplayed LPs can suffer from pressing faults
and deterioration if not stored in apropriate archive conditions..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: BB
Date: 19 May 07 - 02:40 PM

Ciderhead, thank you for a little light relief from the horrors of the Bulmer situation.

You said, "Why is my favourite West Country knock out juice
constantly blighted by association with such disreputable surnames ?
Thatchers and Bulmers!"

Well, if you want quality, forget the Bulmers! Actually, that brings it neatly back on topic again :-)

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:01 PM

While Thatchers Cider might be made in Somerset, Bulmers emanates from Hereford.
Though Magners seem to have some concession for manufacturing it in Ireland.
Whatever. Last time I went to the Fleadh in Finsbury Park (sponsors, yeah right, Magners) I was asked if I had any cans on me.
As it happens, I'd called at the supermarket on the way to pick up cat food. 'Oh, yes', I said, 'several cans of Whiskas'.
'Get in there, you stupid old cat-loving bat', they said (roughly), not thinking to check for the multiple cans of English beer I had in my rucksack.
Bulmer may be to blame for many things, but not for crap cider.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc
Date: 19 May 07 - 11:41 PM

hi Jos..

just listened to the entire CD
wide awake, stone cold sober, good studio-monitor quality headphones..

wasn't able to plug into my best CD player,
thats in the bedroom, its gone 4.30 am, and the wifes asleep..

so my PC cdrom and software media player had to do

..and I could'nt hear any skips or jumps.....

The overall sound is definitely nothing like 'audiophile' quality..
its a bit crunchy and distorted.. but not too distracting..

certainly does'nt sound anything like a transfer from well recorded first generation master tape..

but very good bootleg sound quality best describes it..

Don't know right now if it will sound better or worse on my
proper HiFi system..

Anyway, if you want to confirm if your Disc is the same release as mine,

[and I'm quite certain mine is a factory manufactured disc rather than CD-R copy]

this is the ID coding around the inner ring on the playing surface
as best as I can make out without a magnifying glass.....

Sony DADC IFPI L554
A0100436694-0101 24


Btw I prefer the darker 'folky' tracks

the singalong pop stuff at best reminds me of The Idle Race
and at worst vears a bit too near to Brian and Michael
"Matchstalk Men and Matchstalk Cats and Dogs"..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:29 AM

I'm not qualified to discuss most of this (or anything, really!) but presumably if the band members retained the copyright in the songs/i> they could continue to perform them and even record a different version. They may not want to because they consider the essential element the contribution of Lal.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:29 AM

Oh grief! Bulmer again. The guy who has done more to hinder the progress of folk music than any other! To Richard Bridge - I think the lawyer of whom you refer is NIGEL ANGEL who is a London solicitor dealing mainly in music biz matters.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:50 AM

Firstly Roger the Skiff (Silly name BTW)
I might be wrong but I don't think Mike and Lal ever gigged Phoebus as a show.
Presumably because it would have been nigh on impossible to get all the musos in one place at one time.
Would have been a "Must Go" gig, if it had happened.
Obviously, it would be silly to even try now, without Lal.
Second GUEST Donnwanna...etc!!
Interesting info re the Bulmer release, but, I thought it was only me that listened to music at 0430!!
Sad isn't it!
Andy IOM....
Wondered where you had gone.
You do realise that there is another Andy living in Peel nowadays. (Work it out!) Might even plan a trip to your fair island soon. fancy a pint??
Best Wishes to all.
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:24 AM

The family sang a couple of the songs from Bright Phoebus at the RAH, the title track and 'Fine Horseman'. Although I'd not heard Lal sing live since the late '60's I could have sworn it was her singing when Lal's daughter, Marry, sang the solo part to 'Horseman'


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Jos
Date: 20 May 07 - 06:26 AM

Thanks, Don't...etc..., mine has all the same numbers on it, so I now know that a decent copy is possible (I knew it wouldn't be first generation master tape quality). I'll get back to the supplier and ask for a replacement.
Thanks again.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:53 AM

"I thought it was only me that listened to music at 0430!!"
No Ralphie - there are a fair few of us that do that. Anyone wanna join "Insomniacs 'R Us" ?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:26 AM

Ralphie,
When the 'other' Andy isn't music-ing the world he can usually be found in 'The White House', Peel where mine host Neil Keig keeps an excellent selection of beers and whiskies. There's trad music in their on Saturday nights so if you do come, bring your 'tina with you.
Regards,
bigJ


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:36 AM

Hi BigJ??

Bumped into the other Andy only last week, who kindly invited me to visit. On my "things to do" list.

And of course, "Tina" would be coming too!!

(Completely off topic, but hey!)

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:00 AM

The Watersons never gigged "Bright Phoebus" that is for certain and for the reasons Ralphie mentioned.

Some of the songs written by Mike and Lal from that era - were indeed sung at the RAH concert, and Blue Murder do a couple too...And on the other occasion they appeared as "Waterson Family" - Sidmouth - they did some there.

As for Maria sounding like her mum - it is true and she sounds more and more like her. No-one for me could ever replace the sound of Lal - but my goodness she does come damned close.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:14 AM

Not Bright Ph - poss thread shift - but very related to much of the above.

A Tale of Two CDs – What the Dickens!

I walked into my favourite Leeds record store, Jumbo Records, last Saturday.
I browsed through the folk section and a shock-horror moment occurred (for me, at least).
I came across two Nic Jones CDs I wasn't expecting to see.
There, amongst copies of 'Penguin Eggs' and 'Game Set & Match,' were two of the 'famous' first four of his catalogue - namely 'Ballads & Songs' and 'Nic Jones'.
The covers had a LARGE logo on the front proclaiming 'Leader' records – similar on the back – very prominent.
Only in the teeny-tiniest of print, on the back, down at the foot of the tray-card was the proclamation 'CM' and an address for said company.

I am very 'aware' of the 'debate' about these re-released recordings and the ethical and moral points constantly raised in public forums and on the folk scene generally.
I have my own point of view on the subject too – mostly formulated from extended conversations with artists effected by the situation (Nic himself, Bob Fox etc)

I took the two album cases to the counter and politely enquired of an assistant if I might be able to have a word with the manager.
He asked if it wasn't something he could deal with and I replied 'No, I'd like to speak to the manager about these two Nic Jones CDs'
He disappeared 'out the back' and reappeared shortly after saying the manager would be with me in a moment.
When the manager eventually came out front, he had a face like thunder before we even spoke!
I can only assume he'd perhaps had someone speak to him re this 'debate' before.
I politely enquired if he was aware of the furore and on-going debate re these and other albums?
That if he wasn't aware – I'd return in the week with a written précis and web addresses where he could get 'up to speed'.
However….
He replied 'Yes' – and 'it's about time someone sorted THIS out!'
He sounded quite agitated!
I then pointed out I had been shopping at Jumbo for years and years - from when it first opened way down on the ground floor of Merrion House (heck – how many, many years back was that? Twenty? ….More?)
I calmly stated that I would not be buying anything further from their store whilst such stock was on their shelves…
At which point he snatched up the two cases from me and threw them – nay, PELTED them, across the shop…..
BANG! Clatter into the wall and floor!
– Simultaneously bellowing 'Well we won't HAVE them then!' and STORMED off away from me without a by-your-leave.
He was practically purple with rage and I was somewhat stunned by his explosion, by his complete fit of pique!
I collected my wits – I was, in fact quite frightened by his outburst - then passed him on my way out saying 'Thank you for your time'.

I can only guess he's had his cage rattled on the subject before – for I can't believe my calm, measured few sentences warranted such an over-the-top reaction.

The customer isn't always right, but perhaps I could have been 'heard' and politely shown the door if not agreed with?

I went over to Borders – bought a lovely CD from their folk section.
Found no 'controversial' stock on display there.
Calm counter staff too!
Probably shop there from now on.

Cheers – HipflaskAndy (that's Duncan McFarlane, George!)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:27 AM

Doesn't Dave Bulmer work at Jumbo on a Saturday?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:40 AM

OOhhh.....lets all go visit Saturdays!!

And well done Duncan, just like margarine the word is spreading.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:21 PM

'Doesn't Dave Bulmer work at Jumbo on a Saturday? '

No idea 'Buspassed'.
If he does - he wasn't there to my knowledge - or, at least, didn't make himself known.
Perhaps he might have reasoned with me?
The manager sure didn't!
Bless - D


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:21 PM

Flippant irony not best understood here then!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:36 PM

The Jumbo website lists everyone who works there.
Those who work legitimately and are registered for tax and NI that is.
Is it flippantly ironic' not to be?
I thought it was just clever and/or illegal.
Dunc, did this manager resemble John Cleese?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:57 PM

Certainly by his behaviour.....

Come on Dunc, I think we should be told!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:12 PM

Or did he resemble Dave Bulmer more to the flippantly ironic point!

Come on 4B buck up!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:38 PM

So Hipflask Andy Jumbo sells your CD's (Duncan McFarlane Band) they pay you out right for them they are not on sale or return then? In doing so they pay you your royalties up front then yes? No I don't think so most if not all of the stock is on sale or return.

What a great gesture from the manager throwing unpaid for stock about or perhaps it was just the empty jewel case.

Having a go at me is pointless the fact's are here Bill Leaders Contract was the one signed. With Bill Leader not with Dave Bullmer!

Now I know that the Duncan Mc Farlane Band only play big gigs like the Abbey Inn. But at least you are out their and although the fee's maybe small especially for the size of your band. You have the opportunity to get your own material noticed and then played on the media that's where the money is. Perhaps some super star like Christy Moore will turn one of your songs into a hit. You write some brilliant songs Duncan it could happen.

So there is just no way you would sign away your rights it would not make any sense at all would it?

However if you were putting up the money to produce someone else's Album you might want to make sure that you were able to at least get you money back. How would you encourage them to get out there and do gigs and sell there own Albums? How would you stop them from going off and making a New Album with someone else using some of the best tracks from the old Album?

So come on Hipflask Andy it's your choice should you stop doing the thing you love or do you become a record producer. You have plenty of friends in Otley who are recording there own albums every other floor singer last time I was there. How many of them are their that are willing to give up their well paid day jobs to go out gigging every night to sell there Albums. Oh and what the professionals do is to go round a week before to not just publicize the tour but to get there music played on the local Radio Stations.

Oh and when you get to the gig make sure you take as long as possible to do your sound check. If you can over run into the start time so the no one else gets a sound check. Then your band as the headliner can cut the supports bands time short and make them sound crap into the bargain. Whilst you can cash into all those lovely royalties just make sure you don't do any traditional music. Hey there is no money in that is there?

Oh and the Merion Centre was opened in the 1960's it has a Cinema that has been closed for more than 30 years. Oh and I distributed Tykes News for no financial reward for well over 20 years. My thing is the love of the music not the petty ridiculous whinge about money and contracts. I'm pretty sure that if one of your songs went platinum the money would not be your biggest reward.

Hope all this crap is keeping the Bright Phoebus sales up Dave.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:44 PM

I speak of the DMcF band on the one occasion I have been there when they sound-checked.

They were polite and rapid. I cannot praise them high enough for that.

But this thread is not about any of these things. Let's get back to the subject in hand.

Do the deal Dave.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:05 PM

Fer chrissake, Mr 'Tyke' Clarke, Duncan does what he does and, fortunately, retains his rights.
He went into Jumbo and found the work of his friend, Nic Jones, displayed for sale in the format of your mate Mr Bulmer's CD-Rs.
He queried this, in the sure knowledge that Nic was receiving nothing from any such sales.
Interesting response from da management.
If the DMcF band goes platinum, jolly good thing and well-deserved.
Venue management and soundcheck overrun cockup problems are not the band's fault. Get real.
And what's this crap about the Merrion Centre?
Needs nuking in common with all other architecture of the era.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:20 PM

RRst


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST, bystander
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:24 PM

Royalties - DB is within his rights to pay none where none is due, but he won't win any friends. A better ploy would be to sell the rights back to the artists and find another living where he won't be a pariah. (He's a top box player and plenty would give him work if he shaped up).

Access - it might seem an improvement if some of this massive catalogue is at last becoming available, but there is just SO much in the vault that a one-man organisation without major backing can't hope to do justice to the archive - or even preserve it properly. A better ploy would be to sell the masters (or what's left of them) back to the artists, donate the rest to someone with the necessary resources, and find another living where he won't be a pariah.

Quality - given that many of the master tapes are probably in poor repair (beyond repair?) it's logical to use vinyl for mastering. There's even something quite warm about that if it's done really really well. But putting out cheaply produced CDRs (which many shops, radio stations and customers will simply not touch) is not acceptable. It's an insult to the material. Charging the same as for a properly mastered CD is just a scandal. (You do know the difference between a CD and a CDR, don't you Dave?). A better ploy would be to sell the rights and the masters (or what's left of them) back to the artists, and find another living where you won't be a pariah.

Dave you've collected too much stuff. Too much. I know this was meant to be your pension but it's suffocating you. Life can offer other good things.

Do the deal.

(Why don't we say this to you in person? Because you've made us all afraid of you. How can that be a good thing for a salesman?)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:53 PM

Jeez George
How'd you work out I was 'having a go' at you?

You have totally misinterpreted my meaning.

Up above there earlier you were making a point about
folks hiding their identity behind 'Guest' and 'pen-names' - didn't you?
Just to be clear on who HipflaskAndy was (to all other readers)
I tried to reinforce YOUR point. That's not 'having a go'.

I fail to understand the points you are making in your most recent rant.
Is it at me? My band?
Why?
I expressed no ill-will in your direction on here in the slightest
Please re-read my post - thanks.
I hope you will then realise the mistake you have made.
I hope my explanation is clear and not open to further misunderstanding.

George, I am also fully aware of your contribution to the local Folk music press.

I'll have a re-read of your points and reply later - mebbe.
Meantime, I feel somewhat stunned. - HFA - Duncan!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:28 PM

Blimey.
I go away for five minutes and world war three breaks out!!!
Duncan.
I'm sure your soundchecks are interminable!
Mine are!
Interesting to hear your story about the NJ CDs, and the store managers reaction. Maybe you are right in assuming that this is not the first time that this has happened. May it happen again.
As for Tyke....(why don't you use real name George?)
What exactly are you getting out of this support for Mr Bulmer????
I wouldn't think that it would be money....
After all, nobody else is getting a penny.
(Including Mr B himself)
Sorry, Old Bean, not going away, never did, never will. Until justice is served. (Dogs, Bones, Discuss)
DO THE DEAL DAVE
Regards
Ralph Jordan (Real name and proud of it)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,bystander
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:51 PM

There's a good reason why I can't use my real name - it might put others in a difficult position.

George goes back with Dave a long way, so I respect his loyalty. I can see why he feels Dave's been unfairly vilified, because this bad feeling has as much to do with others as Dave. But the ball does lie at Dave's feet. It did then and it does now, so I'll urge him again to think laterally.

You may feel you're a misunderstood champion of lost music Dave, but the facts are clearly as expressed above and you do need to change tack.

George, as I say, I respect your defence of Dave, and I'm not immune to spelling and grammatical errors myself. But please read though what you write before posting, because we often haven't got a clue what you're trying to say. Yes there's a good bacon sarnie shop up in the Merrion Centre too, but it's not the same since they moved Scheerers and the musical aeroplane. What has that got to do with the price of fish?

And I really have no idea what your beef is with Duncan. We've all overrrun the occasional sound-check - often because the engineers are still getting their own act together. They're totally professional lads and if this has ever happened there will be a good reason. (Been on both sides of that coin many times).

George you say you stand for a love of music over money or contracts. But without money and contracts you'd have very little music to enjoy - because 90% of it would never have been created, and there'd have been precious few people around with enough skill to get it to your ears.

You've been around some pros in your time, so you know what they go through and what they deserve.

My advice - cut out the rhetorical questions and the metaphors and say with you think.

Then we can take your views on board. Who knows, you might even change our minds.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:55 PM

See? I meant, of course, 'say WHAT you think'


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:59 PM

Hi Bystander.
Nice post. Obviously a performer, If I read you correctly.
Nothing much to add at this point, but I thank you for your considered thoughts.
For many years, I've felt that I was fighting a lone battle.
Maybe now we can see an end to this sad and sorry tale.
Only needs Mr Bulmer to come up with a deal, and jobs done.
Thank You
Ralph Jordan


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST, bystander
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:05 AM

Performer? Moi? If only!

Actually, in the interests of a proper debate I'd like to go through George's post again, as maybe we've misundertsood him even worse than usual!

Are you saying, George, that Dave has every right to earn money on his investment? I think you are, in which case I'd say yes absolutely.

Are you saying that not all artists have the gumption or wherewithall to make and sell their own albums, so the world needs people who specialise in this field? If so, again yes.

Are you saying that it's reasonable for a record company to recoup its costs and make a fair profit too - before starting to pay out to the artists? If so, maybe, but it's not good business in the long term. In all endeavors you need something called goodwill and that's something Dave's not been great at.

Are you saying that it's not Dave's fault that some of the original contracts were iffy? If so, of course - but they were written and signed in a different era, and involved different personalities. So the outcomes would have been very different to the way they look on paper now. Again, a good crerative businessman understands the human aspects of commerce and that you need everyone on you side if you're going to make any proper money. Dave's position may be legally sound, but even if we ignore any moral or ethical issues, it's not good business. He needs to work WITH the artists concerned to get these recordings promoted, so he can make money - and to do that he has to make it worth their while. It's just common sense really.

Is your comment about sound checks just a general swipe at professional folk musicians, and not perhaps aimed specifically at Duncan (as we all assumed)? If so, yes, a handful of pros do behave apallingly, but as i say, usually if someone's overrun a check it's because 1) They were not allocated enough time by some damnfool organiser (this is commonplace, unfortunately), 2) the crew were not ready or not efficient 3) there's been a technical problem somewhere. If so, it has nothing to do with this discussion. It was a mistake to make it and you do owe Duncan an apology for seeming to attack him.

You're wrong about royalties on traditional music, by the way. If you register an arrangement of a public-ownership work, you'll get exactly as much for your performance of it as for your own compositions.

I happen to think Dave gets some unfair press too, but he's brought it all on himself. He didn't make a huge success of his own record company (and there have always been grey areas). Buying up all those other businesses was also bad business when he didn't have what it took to exploit them properly. By hanging on and digging in and doing all of the above he's made it much worse. And meddling with PRS and MU matters is merely making him more enemies among people who might have helped out.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:09 AM

Be good to meet up with you Ralph for that pint and will do so if I am on the island - I work most of my time in the Gulf (oil biz) but do get back every other month for a few days.

From what I have heard from a very close firend who has had observed Bulmer for many years, the chances of Bulmer doing a "decent" deal are remote in the extreme! He can't do it. Governed by greed and with a hoarders mentality the game is to fan the flames and watch the mayhem. You could say he is a a really lovely human being!

I think that what is guaranteed is that Bulmer doesn't give a stuff what people think about him and laughs himself all the way to his bank (with bag carried by Sharpley).


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:32 AM

Hi again Mr Stander (or can I call you By!)
Firstly lets lay the Red Herring re Soundchecks to rest, once and for all.
As a performer, and 30 years Sound Engineering professionally, I can only agree with you.
Most bands that I know, like to dispense with the Check, as quickly and painlessly as possible, after all they are there to do the gig, not the soundcheck. As always, the law of sod, often applies. Broken gear, travel delays, lost backlines, or if anyone remembers Glastonbury, Horizontal rain, and punters showering the stage with mud!
Bands also realise that keeping the crew on side is essential, after all they are the final arbitor as to how the band sounds, and they want their meal break too. Cross them at your peril!

As for the rest, I heartily concur. If as George states, This discussion is boosting sales of Bright Phoebus, I still can't see Mr B buying a yacht on the profits just yet. After all, he may have sold a few here and there as a result of the Radio Programme, but, he's got a long way to go to get up to Dark Side of the Moon proportions. Can't really see the point myself.

So this can't be about cash, it must be about control. Lest we lose sight of the original point, It's not about money, it's about morality.
Whist Dave hangs onto the publishing rights (and not benefiting from them) The artists are out there dying. No, they probably wouldn't make much for themselves from re-issuing old product, but, it's worth a go isn't it?

Ah Well, looks like this one is going to run and run

Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:37 AM

hi Ralphie..


I've been searching some links at 'Sound on Sound'
regarding master tape deterioration and preservation.

Articles I remember from the last few years..

also info re: recording contracts..


Maybe you and other mates here might find it interesting
if you have not already read it.

Though I think it maybe reasonable to branch off and start a new more
technical oriented thread.

see you there..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:51 AM

ok.. dontwanna..etc..etc..etc.. and ciderhead


were me..

well, seeing as theres been an outbreak of identity outing here..

i might as well relax and join in the fun.....


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:02 AM

Hi PFR.
Mmm tried to open said thread, the darn thing refuses..
Just crashes me out of Mudcat, curious!
R


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:10 AM

hi Ralphie..

hmmm.. it works for me..


there are 6 active links included in that thread.

dunno much about about web coding technicalities..
maybe somethings conflicting with your net browser ????

anyway.. heres a copy & paste of the links in none clicky format..



TAPE DECAY:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/may96/salvagearchives.html


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr06/articles/rogernichols_0406.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/mar94/tapecare.html

CONTRACTS:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep00/articles/music.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/articles/contracts.htm


have fun reading.. or at least try not to despair too much...


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:23 AM

ps.. just noticed the April 2007 article is is not complete
because its still too new and they want readers to buy it..

.. but it will be fully available for free eventually
[can't remember how many months..?]


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Rallphie
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for that, I'm not my normal PC.
But will do some digging soon.
What I will say, that having worked with tape for over 3 decades, it's generally quite forgiving stuff.
Obviously store all reels tail out, to avoid print-through,
Climate and humidity are evry important. I once in my naievety, stored some early tapes in a cellar, not too cold, not too hot. Shame about the water leak!!! All ruined, luckily nothing important.
Another good tip, is avoid magnets like the plague, and if you still have a machine to play them on, play them at normal speed in both directions (time consuming I know), but, if you think about it, tape is only iron filings glued to plastic, and the glue deteriorates over time. Fast spooling them could have severe effects.

It is possible to bake them (GENTLY!!) but it's a very long process.

One thing not to do is to place a treasured master reel under an office table leg, to make the table level, and then leave it there for years.

I couldn't possibly comment.

Thanks for the links, will follow them, next time I've got some paint to watch drying LOL!!!

Regards as always

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Tyke, say hes not concerned about the petty whinging about contractsand money
Tyke is not one of the artists affected by it.
Nic Jones was seriously injured in a car crash,his professional career was ended,he probably needs all the royalties /money he can get,Tyke you have a colossal cheek.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Deeply Despondent
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:10 PM

Why don't we all just arrange a suitable time and place to meet outside Bulmer's gaff, as we know where he lives, and insist on playing tapes of the Third Ear Band until he accedes to our demands?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 May 07 - 03:32 PM

HI Ralphie the reason I use my Mudcat name Tyke is because that is the Name I use on the Mudcat. If you became a Mudcat Member you can then choose a Mudcat name. You would log in with your own cookie so people could not highjack your name.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Who Knows who
Date: 23 May 07 - 03:34 PM

If you want to make threats log on or tell us your name. 200


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