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Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer

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Subject: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:05 AM

Just finished listening to a most interesting programme about "Bright Phoebus" the record that Mike and Lal Waterson wrote and sang on in 1972.

Radio Four 1330 - "Lost Records" NO doubt it will be available on "listen again" but I suspect it is too early for that as I write.

Interesting in that Dave Bulmer appears on the programme too.

Personally speaking I found it(especially the stuff about Lal) extremely moving.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:11 AM

He was indeed. Though clearly not in the same studio as Mike Waterson.
I fell off my chair in disbelief as that South Shields accent came from the speakers.
What was very interesting (and disappointing) was the revelation from Bob Davenport of the terms of the original contract with Bill Leader that stipulated that if sales revenue from the original pressing of Bright Phoebus failed to reach £2,000 and cover production costs, no royalties would be payable in perpetuity.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:16 AM

Totally agree, one of the most moving doccos Ive ever heard. Mike's so obvious love for his sister had me reaching for the tissues.

As for Bulmer, well from what I heared he's more slippery than I could ever imagine.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:21 AM

Must admit that that's the first time I've actually heard his (ie Mr Bulmer's) voice ... and that item about royalties was extremely galling. But, although I have the LP, I haven't been able to listen to it in a very long time,as I now have now record player. I found that I had forgotten some of the stuff that was on it. Hearing it like that made me realise JUST how good it was - and it really doesn't seem to have dated at all. The programme will actually be repeated on Radio 4 on Saturday 12th May (afraid I haven't got the time of the broadcast to hand at the moment).


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:29 AM

Two minor points - I think it was sales of 2,000 records not £2,000.

And Countess is right - Mike and Bulmer were not in the same room!!!!!!Neither was Martin Carthy.

And just to show that you shouldn't believe everything you hear, pedantry makes me say that the version of Bright Phoebus at the end is not from the original record but from the "Blue Murder" version.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:42 AM

If it was 2,000 records rather than pounds, at 1972 prices that would have made it doubly difficult to qualify for royalty payments. Sorry, I was feeling a bit too stunned and outraged to listen properly.

By playing the Blue Murder version of Bright Phoebus some payment at least, however small, will be forthcoming.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:13 AM

I caught some of the programme also and one of the facts given was that of the 2,000 records pressed 1,000 were substandard and unplayable. It was Bill Leader as stated who drew up the original contracts and who produced the LP. It was Bill Leader who owned the stock of records and who gave the explanation of where half the pressings went. The debate starts with Bill Leader as far as I can see all Dave Bullmer has done is to buy a lot if not all Topic Records, Bill Leader's, bankrupt stock. Dave Bullmer around this time was driving round in an old car with one windscreen wiper that worked and with selotape holding his NHS Glasses together. I'm not suprised that Dave felt ease talking quiet openly about Bright Phoebus I don't think he has anything to hide.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:33 AM

all Dave Bullmer has done is to buy a lot if not all Topic Records

Good grief!

Actually, Bulmer bought TRAILER, and not from Bill.
The problem is that he owns the rights and will not relinquish them, nor will he organise a proper, above-board re-release, rather than a CD-R dubbed from the vinyl. That's why Martin Carthy (and not just him) says he is 'bewildered' that Bulmer won't do anything about it, or let someone else do it. And it's why Topic put out Shining Bright, re-recordings of the songs by different artists.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:52 AM

Bright Phoebus is on Trailer not Topic.

"Shining Bright" is on Topic currently being offered at £4.00 off. NB VAT on top of the price displayed....It comes thoroughly recommended by me.

http://www.topicrecords.co.uk/acatalog/WATERSON__LAL.html

With my folk vinyl dealer hat on, a second-hand copy of the original is about £35/£50.00 - if I had one which I don't!!

I sold one three years ago within seconds of it being out on the stall.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 12:07 PM

I can't stop shaking at the very thought of Bulmer buying up Topic.
There was a Bright Phoebus on eBay recently for £120.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 08 May 07 - 12:44 PM

The Saturday repeat last week was at 15.30, according to the website, so probably the same time this week. I think the 'Listen Again' should be available tomorrow. (I just caught the end of the programme, so I've already checked these out.)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Cats
Date: 08 May 07 - 01:01 PM

In 2000 I heard Eliza sing Bright Phoebus as part of the fire show on the beach at Whitby Festival. I could have sworn it was Lal but knew it couldn't have been...or could it?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 May 07 - 01:33 PM

Shining Bright can be downloaded from

http://www.emusic.com/



I know this cos I downloaded it a few weeks ago but I cant remember what I paid for it but I think you have to make an annual subscription which gives you a number of downloads per month.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 01:49 PM

Many of the contracts might have challengeable features. But the sums of money involved would not justify the legal fees. Doesn't some potential claimant qualify for legal aid? I don't personally do legal aid, but there are still some who do. There used to be a music lawyer called Angel (might nave been Denis Angel, might have been some other name) who did...

Is any relevant person a member of the MU, and has an MU appeal for legal support been thought of?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:16 PM

I don't know law, but i've signed a few contracts in my time and i'm as sure as I can be that Leader's rider re-sales and royalties is not legally enforceable.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:36 PM

Bright Phoebus is (and has been for several years) available on CD. CAMSCO carries it.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:50 PM

Dick Greenhaus: Bright Phoebus is 'available' (i.e. sneaked out) on CD-R dubbed from the vinyl without any promotion or publicity. This 'release' was not authorised by the artists and they receive no royalties.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:13 PM

Countess Richard-
As I have frequently said (in print), If any artist feels that royalties are owed on any CD I sell, I'll pay those royalties. Releases of previously recorded material don't (and never have) required authorization by the artist. And as far as I know, a producer who buys a label (such as Leader) isn't "sneaking" out anything. Neither is the producer required to promote nor publicize a release, though it's generally a good idea.
   It's certainly a CD-R, as are all the Leader/Dambuster/Croc etc./ releases. So what? They're not represented to be anything else, and prospective sales aren't large enough to warrant the expense of pressing.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: neardura
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:30 PM

This program is now on listen again.
I heard the tail end in the car and have just L/A.
A vwery interesting program


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:35 PM

Oh dear.

Dick G, have you not listened to what Mike Waterson had to say in the Lost Albums broadcast?
Did you not hear how emotional he was over his sister Lal?
Do you not ask yourself why Bulmer didn't promote this sneaky reissue of Bright Phoebus CD-R with appropriate publicity?
How much have you paid Mike Waterson (you can't have paid Lal because she is tragically dead)?
As for prospective sales 'not being large enough to warrant the expense of pressing', why doesn't Bulmer simply sell back the rights so that artists can prove this wrong?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 04:46 PM

Dick, what you say is true in the USA, but that would mean the albums would not be capable of lawful supply to the UK, where what you say is not the law.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 04:48 PM

Correction - "might". There is an issue about the identity of what the amended 1988 Act calls "persons entitled to recording rights". Our masters in Brussels regrttably forced a reduction in protection for artists in the last round of EU-enforced amendments to the act. There is also a question of whether consents are contingent on implied restrictions.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:39 PM

To date, Mike Waterson hasn't asked me for any royalties. No, I haven't heard the program--is it available? I haven't noticed that the re-issue of Bright Phoebus was any sneakier, or any worse-publicized than any of the other Celtic Music releases. and I have no insight whatsoever into Mr. Bulmer's motives, for anything he does. I'm just grateful that the music is again available.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:45 PM

What Dave Bullmer Bought was the stock of unsold records when the record company was declared bankrupt. He bought what other people did not want at that time. If you want to put your hand in your pocket and make an offer to Dave Bullmer then do so with you're hard earned cash.

I don't know what axe you have to grind with Dave Bullmer, Countess Richard, you would seem to prefer that these, now valuable, records to have been melted down to make new ones. As in sold for scrap to pay the debts of those who declared them selves bankrupt.

If you had just bought a copy of Bright Phoebus for £35 to £50 would you suddenly be calling Dave Bullmer if he flooded the market with these records? Another question is how much should the vendors of these now highly collectable LP's feel obliged to pay the artist every time they change hands.

Oh and I noted yesterday that the once popular cassette tape is now to be fazed out. The popularity of homemade compilation tapes once had the record industry in a flap. So hands up if you have never copied an LP to tape ripping off the Artist and contributing to the number of bankrupted Record Labels.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:46 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/lostalbums/pip/ux1hf/


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:16 AM

Do I dare enter this can of worms?
Ah Well.

My feelings are this....

1. Bloke buys rights to loads of recordings. (all legal and above board)
2. Bloke then sits on them for 25 years, not making any money.
3. Bloke then watches many of the artists become incapacitated, or in the worst case scenario, dying.
4. Bloke refuses to enter partnership with said artists, to the mutual benifit of all.
5. Seems a bit silly to me.

As to the the bit about "No interest in the records"....
Well, why is there a programme about Bright Phoebus on BBC Radio4 this week?

In this programme, you say that there is no interest in this material. And, you have shed loads of vinyl that you can't get rid of...Huh?

Well sell them back to the artists. end of problem.

Free Reed have done some wonderful Box Sets of various artists over the last few years. Why sit on the marvellous collection that you have?

What is the point?

You make no money (Which I think you need), and the artists get nothing too. Who is the winner?

And the public are deprived of the best of that era of music.

I know this will get back to you Dave.
Do the deal... Please

Before it is too late.

And for Tony Rose and Lal Waterson it already is.

Ralph Jordan


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:22 AM

Ralphie, Thanks for joining in - I was hoping you would.

I am afraid your request though is s triumph of hope over experience.

Dick I shall see one Waterson or another over the next two weeks - so I shall mention that you are happy to pay them royalties.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:37 AM

Ah! Mr Eyre.

Thank you. Pass on my best wishes.
I'm like a dog with a bone on this one...
One day it will be resolved. Lets hope that there are still some of us alive to witness it.

Kind Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:43 AM

Make that "proper royalties" - there are three sets of rights involved: -

1. The copyright in the sound recording -
2. The copyright in the songs/tunes/arrangements -
3. The performers' rights (nowadays called "recording rights" - very confusing) under S. 180 to 190 CDPA, and the reproduction right and distribution right there mentioned. IMHO these are the ones the performers are best placed to recapture, since in general the consent of the artist to the doing of the protected act is a defence to the person doing the act, in general leaving a person who alleges he still owns exclusive rights to the exclusion of the artist to sue the artist in contract - a chain of title Mr B might find hard to establish and assert in court.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:59 AM

Richard.

I think the artists concerned would be happy to get a Fiver!!
They haven't seen much else!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:53 PM

I can only comment that Bulmer, while he may have been mean or despicable or short-sighted or whatever, doesn't seem to have done anything illegal. I'd have to see the original contracts (with Leader)before I could comment on them; I would like to point out that royalties are due only on copies that have been sold.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:48 PM

Dave Bulmer.
he is suppressing The New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet,second recording, that he acquired from Richard Digance[we trusted Richard Digance],and he passed on our recordings to Bulmer.[without consulting us]
He also owns the mastertape to Cheating the Tide,byDick Miles,and refused to sell me the mastertape.
Bulmrer is a complete bollox.Ihope he rots in hell.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:55 PM

Dick.

I have never said that Mr Bulmer had done anything illegal.
But, it gave me great pleasure to buy the first Nic Jones (Celtic Music CD-R) CD in a well known London store, and having handed over the money, taking it out of its jewel case and snapping it in two.
The assistant was obviously shocked, but, when I explained my actions (Whilst clearing up the debris!!). he understood why I had done it.

It's not about legality, but, morality.

God knows that there is little enough money in Folk Music, as you well know.

I'm not asking for Mr B to hand over willy nilly the tapes, but to strike a deal with all the artists, to everyones mutual benifit.

And just to mention that the first 2 Nic Jones retrospectives did very well indeed, and "Game, Set, Match" released on Topic last year (winning Nic a Lifetime acheivement award at the BBC Folk awards bash), the advance for which went to salvaging Nics knee, which was crumbling at the time.

This is selling very well. I'm assuming that CAMSCO is stocking it?

There are still the 4 lost Nic albums, not to mention Bandoggs, Oh and at least 200 other titles including the "Grey" albums. Will we ever hear them again?

As I said earlier, Too late for Tony Rose and Lal Waterson.

We over here in the UK would like to see an end to all of this.

It's not about money, it's about justice.

Kind regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:14 PM

Ah Dick, Old Mate.
Didn't realise that you were caught up in all this stuff too!
Never heard the second Mexborough album.....
Would be nice to hear the "Clan Alba" recording too.
The way it should be done is as follows.

When Dingles records went bust, I called Roger Holt (MD of said label), popped round to his place, gave him a bunch of money, and in return, got 50 vinyl copies of the first Crows LP, the master tapes and the multitracks!!

All done and dusted over a cup of tea. How civilised.

Haven't got round to re-issuing them yet, but I could if I wanted to, and the nice Mr Holt got a pile of dosh to do up his house..

Doesn't Mr B need a roof repairing????

Come on Dave.....SELL THEM BACK


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 09 May 07 - 03:32 PM

Oh well done by a CD in a shop and destroy it just the kind of customers retail stores want in their shops. I can see cooperate giant's thinking this is just one aggravation we can do with out. Don't order anymore "-Folk" CD's only inviting trouble stock up with easy listening. OK they sell eventually it may take 25 years but they do sell. What are you going to do next burn the Holy Bible because you don't like the printers?

Oh now you have loads of money to buy master tapes and copyrights well I've just done a recording. In your terms it should be a good bet for Dave Bullmer I drive too fast, smoke, drink, and eat fried food on the run. I'm over weight I don't like hassling for gigs so I'm unlikely to sell any albums myself but should I die or have a stroke in about 25 years time you will have the rights to put more money into producing my album. So come on lets do the deal put your money where your mouth is if you don't I'll be straight round to Dave Bullmer.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:29 PM

Ralphie-
FYI-I carry Penguin Eggs, Unearthed, In Search of, Game Set Match, Nic Jones (eponymous)and Ballads and Songs, as well as the Halliard songbook (with CD). I'd gladly carry the Banddogs recordings if I could get my hands on them. (also have Clan Alba)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:01 PM

Ok, I may never get the chance to say this again but I lent my banjo to DB in 1972 and he seemed like such a nice guy in them days


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:26 PM

Message to Tyke...
What???
No comprende. Nice rant though.
Your name isn't Dave Bulmer by any chance?
My stupid (admittedly) destruction of said CD in that shop, made the people in charge look into where they were sourcing their records.
A quick look at the Musicians Union Website told them all they needed to know.

Ralph

Mr Greenhouse!!
Jolly good chap, keep on selling them.
Maybe the Bandoggs stuff might appear sometime.
It must be very frustrating for all you guys over the pond....
Don't worry, we are working on the other bits.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:36 PM

Mr Greenhaus (Woops spelt your name wrong last time)
No probs with the titles you are selling, apart from Clan Alba and the first 2 NJ records. (No royalties to the artists, same old crap)
If only we could get the rights to the original recordings, how many 5 CD boxed sets of Nic Jones could you sell in the US??
Just interested
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: SylviaN
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:38 PM

Just listened to the replay of the "Lost Albums" programme, which brought back many wonderful memories. I'm lucky to be one of those that bought one of the 1000 good copies of Bright Phoebus. It is one of my favourite albums, and always will be.

I'm adding my voice to Ralphie's, hoping that this does reach Bulmer.

Dave, some of my memories of the time leading up to the original release of Bright Phoebus were of the great folk scene in Leeds, including the University folk club that you ran. A great club that sponsored and nurtured an atmosphere where we could perform and learn about folk music (and, in the student's union, the beer was cheap). In those days, I considered you a friend.

Of course, we were younger, innocent, naive perhaps, but less hardened and life was still full the promise of good things to come. Then I moved away from Leeds. Since then, we met only the once, at Redcar Folk Festival in 1990 when I returned from living in Spain, remember.

Life doesn't always turn out as we expect or hope. It still bewilders me that you have managed to anger so many people, some of them are friends of mine today. I can't see how what they are asking would mean any kind of financial disaster for you, hence my bewilderment. As Ralphie says, what is wanted is something to "everyone's mutual benefit".

Please get this sorted, get involved with some open and honest discussions. I've always thought that generosity, whether financial or of spirit, makes good business sense. Under other circumstances, I would have bought a Bright Phoebus CD for myself, and several more to give away to friends. As things stand at the moment, I can't.

Sylvia


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:51 PM

Ralphie-
To answer your question...probably a couple of dozen.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 03:27 AM

Dick G. Thanks for that.
Not bad considering I don't think Nic ever toured the US.
And anyway, The CDs could always be sold separately as well.
Wouldn't hold your breath though, this one is going to run and run!!
Have even thought of a name for the new label "Lost Leader" !!

Sylvia.
Thanks for your kind and considered input to this debate. I have never understood why Dave refuses to negotiate. To get back to the programme on Phoebus, it was palpably obvious that emotions were running high amongst some of the contributors.
God knows it's hard enough to make a living in this game, and to be denied access to work done in an earlier era, when most of us weren't savvy enough to sign the right contract is pretty galling.
And even more puzzling is that Dave B isn't earning anything either!!

Who's winning??? No One.
It all seems so pointless, But, I'm not giving up hope.
I have to continue if only for the memories of Tony and Lal.

Kind regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:00 AM

I listened to the programme last night. It was disappointing that DB wasn't asked to explain his position. All he said was that the artists on "Bright Phoebus" weren't entitled to royalties under the terms of the original contract, and that folk albums don't make any money anyway.

Quite apart from the financial considerations for the artists involved, DB is sitting on a significant part of the folk revival's heritage, including a number of seminal albums. He could have been seen as a hero and saviour for preserving these, instead he is widely vilified and his reputation is zero. And as Ralphie has pointed out, no-one is making any money out of it. It baffles me that a situation where everyone loses could so easily be changed to one where everyone benefits.

At the very least, it would be helpful to understand DB's reasons for his behaviour.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:12 AM

Howard.
Thank You for your words


I just can't understand his Modus Operandi.

And, if he chose to, he could still be seen as a hero. (Having preserved all this music for so many years, after all Neil Wayne, Free Reed records has done it successfully, and produced some marvellous boxed sets of various people)
I have no hatred for Mr B, and would love to shake his hand. All he has to do is give the music back to the artists, and make everyone a small amount of money.
Come on Dave, do the deal!!

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:36 AM

"At the very least, it would be helpful to understand DB's reasons for his behaviour."

I'm not sure if I should chip in here, but I do know people who have talked to DB about this subject.

My best understanding is that he is a) a hoarder and b) has what he thinks is a business head. Business heads are only interested in doing business which will return what they feel is a realistic percentage - it's almost a matter of pride to them. DB, I understand, feels that the margins made by artists and record companies on CDs sold through conventional outlets is too small for the game to justify the candle. He was a 'plugger' in years gone by, dealing with high street stores, so remembers the good old days. I understand he thinks CDs are dead in the water. So unless and until he can see a sum that adds up to something 'worth his while,' the hoarder part of him is content to wait.

Now if this is true - and as I say it's hearsay - it explains why he takes no action, and when challenged digs in his heels and resorts to his legal position (which may or may not be watertight). He seems, I repeat seems, to be genuinely perplexed as to why so many people feel he's in the wrong.

I think a bunker mentality kicked in many years ago, and now he is missing some really important points - but then he's out of the mainstream and not many would dare try to advise him.

Anyone who did might say:

1) This material has value that is not financial - and he could gain in other ways if he made it properly available by one means or another - as would we all. (But again this is something all business heads have trouble understanding).

2) Margins on CDs sold at gigs return a much better profit than those sold in shops through a distrubutor. Small runs of 500 glass mastered bar-coded shrink-wrapped CDs can be very lucrative. The artists concerned COULD make a release pay, so if they are willing and able to buy back the rights and the masters, both parties could benefit financially. But the price would have to be right, and DB may still be thinking in terms of the old days, and the old figures.

3) CDs sold through the web rather than through shops make a much better profit. Many artists no longer bother with shops and DB could do the same. There are plenty of good on-line outlets which operate much smaller margins than shops and there is no distribution percentage.

4) However we no longer have to rely on CDs for the distribution of music. iTunes and others could make money, again, for both parties, at almost zero cost to him (assuming he can make digital copies of the archive). I'm not sure DB is fully aware of all this new technology, but if he isn't there are plenty of people nearby who are, and could help - and not at a huge cost either.

Perhaps Tyke or another of his chums might have a friendly word next time he bumbs into Dave.

(and if you read this Dave and work out who I am, I'm actually trying to help here, ok)?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 07:29 AM

Woops.
In my excitement, hit the wrong button!

Hi Bystander.
Great post.
I'm sure that you are right when you say that DB is a hoarder. Nothing wrong with that. After all I've hoarded all the Peel and Kershaw sessions (and many others) that I was delighted to have recorded over the last 30 years.
Maybe you (whoever you are!) or Tyke, or someone should have a quiet word.
All I've ever wanted was justice for the artists, living or dead.

Thank You

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 07:39 AM

Bystander.
Just another thought.

Tony Rose could have sold lots of CDs at gigs, not a possibility now, sadly.
How many more artists have to shuffle off this mortal coil before their work is heard ??

Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 10 May 07 - 08:59 AM

The fact that Bulmer claimed on the programme to have the residual original vinyl pressings without mentioning their considerable value in today's 'collectable' market indicates to me that a meanness of spirit is overcoming any business thinking.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,john bell, yorkshire.
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:51 PM

Regardless of mountains of vinly pressings Mr Bulmer is sitting on, I think you will find that his ownership of Pat Cooksey's The Sick Note is nowadays his biggest earner, any defence that Tyke and his mates may summon up cannot condone the theft of money due to Pat over a long period of years, many collection agencies, MCPS, GEMA,
ASCAP, to name but a few refuse to pay royalties to Bulmers company from this song nowadays but are holding the money untill the courts
decide otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 10 May 07 - 08:49 PM

My Name is Not Dave Bullmer it's George Clarke I tell you that so that you know that I will not be intimidated and or Bullied by any one. So if you want to slander or infer slander have the bottle to put your name to it. Write to Dave Bullmer giving your Name and address I'm sure a proper reply to any insinuations or questions will be arriving in the mail. Oh and if you come onto the Mudcat as a Guest you are just that a Guest. I don't think any of the Mudcat Membership would wish to prevent Guests from obtaining information but we are all aware that some of the submissions from Guests are at best a waste space or the Guest has a hidden agenda.

Again who wrote out the original contract for Bright Phoebus? Answer Bill Leader
What were the terms of the contract that they signed? Answer as stated on the programme.

What was Dave Bullmer's occupation at the time of the recording of this record? Answer a student at Leeds University subsidising his income by selling records.

Should anyone sign a contract with Dave Bullmer? Answer not without reading it and consulting a lawyer then as a member of the Musicians Union asking there advise.

Should anyone sign a contract with anyone? Answer not without reading it and consulting a lawyer then as a member of the Musicians Union asking there advise.

Would I sign a contract with anyone including Dave Bullmer? Answer not without reading it and consulting a lawyer then as a member of the Musicians Union asking there advise.

This thread is about a BBC radio programme about a lost Album Bright Phoebus which in fact is not lost It is available in the shops or via Dave Bullmer. It seems to me that Dave has managed to struggle through the hard times that you all seem to have forgotten about the miners strikes the Thatcher Years the time when unemployment and bankruptcies were sky high.

No one here is claiming that they never copied an Album; I've asked that question no takers, so stop pointing your finger at people who bought what you did not want to buy. If you bought a house in the year 2000 for £40000 that you can now sell for £140000 plus do you think you have a morale obligation to give the previous owner more money? Answer no of course not.

Here's another question you can answer how many people here prefer not to pay to see a Guest at a Club or at Festival Concert and would rather go to a free sing around
Where you can here or sing the songs that you obtained from those bootlegged tapes?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:02 AM

The tragedy of the Lost Leader catalogue is not just a case of a few revival artists caught by contracts which, possibly unwisely, signed away their publishing rights simply in order to get produced, iniquitous, unfortunate and heart-breaking though that has proved. Of course, many of these have been illegally dubbed or else re-recorded as this is the only way they could be heard. These could have been sales for the Bulmer empire, as they have been in the very few cases in which the rights have been sold back either to the artists or to Neil Wayne for Free Reed retrospectives. Noses, cutting and spiting spring to mind.

No, the enormity of the crime against music lies in the vast traditional catalogue, starting with the very first Leader release, Jack Elliott of Birtley through Seamusses Ennis and Tansey, Walter Pardon, Billy Pigg, the Border Minstrel and all the other grey gatefolds, Janet Kerr's Blue Ridge Mountain Field Trip and even the Copper Family's box set, A Song For Every Season.

As for the revivalists, no it's not just the high profile ones (sad and outrageous though that is), but the list of those musicians affected in one way or another encompasses just about everyone active on the scene in the late 1960s and 70s: Peter Bellamy, Andrew Cronshaw, Lea Nicholson . . . good grief, even Steve Heap and Mike Harding.

There's a complete discography on the Musical Traditions site where you can wonder and weep at what's being kept from the ears of the world.

Now, wouldn't it make Mr Bulmer happy to be lauded and loved as the man responsible for making all that available again (OK, maybe not the last two)? I think he knows where I am if he wants to write me a letter but he'd be better advised to talk to those in a position to do a deal which would benefit everybody. Even him. So, Mr George Clarke, do let him know.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:31 AM

OK Mr Clarke. Thats better. We now know your name. Good.
My name as most people here know is Ralph Jordan. (I use Ralphie as it's less formal and quicker to type!)
I produced the Nic Jones "Unearthed" CD, and co produced the recent Halliard release, and have been involved in the scene since the early seventies. currently with Patterson Jordan Dipper, and Housewives Choice.
So, no secrets there then.

Of course if I was signing any sort of contract today,
I would run it past a lawyer first. But, as I have stated many times, this is not about legality, but morality.

I think that artists in those far off days were just too trusting.
Bill offered them the chance to get some of their work out to a lot of people. And they trusted him (No reason not to)

I'm sure that none of the artists concerned could foresee the bad times a'coming.

As I'm sure you know, when the recession appeared lots of the smaller labels went to the wall. (I've already cited Dingles down here in London)

The Leader catalogue was another one, and changed hands a couple of times (I think) before Dave bought it up.

And, I will re-iterate. I'm sure that it's all above board and legal.

Where we differ is in how that archive of work is dealt with now.

As the Countess says, it's not just the high profile revivalist artists, it's the grey gatefold recordings of Trad singers. (Oh Countess, you missed out Cecilia Costello).

You state that Bright Phoebus is available.....
If so, why did Radio 4 commision a programme about it??

Surely, the release of such an important CD (along with the first 2 Nic Jones CDs) should have had an enourmous fanfare and a huge ad campaign (As Free Reed do).

It all just seems so sly and backhanded to me. Did Dave tell the producers of the documentary that it (B Phoebus) was available?
Maybe he should have done, even if it made the programme pointless!!

I go back to my main point.

People are dying now, time is moving on. Do the deal Mr Bulmer.

Ralph Jordan.

PS. Oh and I drove a crap car round the country with no heater back in the 70s so
Being poor is not a prerogative of Northeners.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: johnadams
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:42 AM

In some cases the artists themselves wish to re-release the albums so it isn't even a matter of cost for Dave Bulmer.

Bill Leader's name has popped up a couple of times with slightly negative nuances.

As a friend and work colleague of Bill's for the last thirty years, I would state that his and Helen's motivation for the Leader Trailer catalogue was based on love of the music and the musicians and not on economic gain (chance would be a fine thing). The passing on of the catalogue was with the hope that it would sustain into future years. The fact that it did not was entirely beyond their control.

John Adams - former Trailer artist.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: early
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:07 AM

hi, As many of you has said in this thread the loss of such material or lack of availabilty is very said. Having said this given the vast ammount of slagging off of Dave that has taken place on this forum over the years even a saint would become truculent and cut his nose off to spite his face. I have spoken to Dave about this in the past( I AM NOT A CLOSE FRIEND OF HIS JUST a folkie who happens to share the same local on occasion) and he is perplexed at the sheer venom directed at him on this forum and states his only motive over the years ,and he is pssionate about, this was to preserve the music.
I feel the situation may be resolved if the main perpetrators of this whitch hunt against Dave were to contact him personally making a sincere apology for all the grief that has been directed at him here then maybe just mabye things can get sorted in a calm and constructive manner to the benefit of all
PS I am not apologising for Dave as many who speak in his favour get accussed of I am just pointing out that the vitriolic campaign against him on this forum (which he knows all about) has exaccerbated the situation to a point where no one will win if bridges aren't mended


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:10 AM

Yes,I agree with John Adams,I had the pleasure of recording with Bill Leader[ My first lp with Sue Weir[[Miles]]theDunmowFlitch].
Bill was the recording engineer ,and made us feel relaxed and did a superb job.
the problem as I see it is entirely of Dave Bulmers making.
what are the condition of the master tapes, after all these years.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:11 AM

Hi John.....

Exactly!!!!!

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Devil's Advocate
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:24 AM

Early - you have said that Mr Bulmer has stated that "his only motive over the years ,and he is pssionate about, this was to preserve the music." I am perplexed by this. I have bought recordings over the years, but in the 70's did not buy nearly enough of the stuff that I would really die to get my hands on now - for example, with the exception of a film recording of Cecilia Costello made when she was an extremely elderly lady, and well past her prime,and was speaking rather than singing the words of her songs (interesting from an archival point of view) I have never yet heard her singing at all. I fail to see how stashing master tapes away constitutes "preserving the music" - yes, it's there (somewhere) and in safe keeping ,but the whole point of music is that it should be HEARD. If the recordings are not released for public consumption,(and I don't mean on CD-R's) how can "preserving the music " come into it. And that's before you even start looking at the morality of the situation re 70's revivalist recordings .


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:40 AM

I missed Cecilia Costello? Not for any reason of choice but because there are just so many trad performers whose work is thus hidden. The Musical Traditions site has a traditional discography:

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/tradisco.htm

Scroll to Leader in the index and just look at what's lying around in a Harrogate shed instead of being out there as a source for today's tradition carriers, not to mention a source of income for those revivalists still around. While Bill Leader's company was still extant no-one imagined the possibility that this rich source of material would ever disappear. Just as no-one questioned the terminology of contracts that didn't provide for the return of rights to the artist if a company ceased trading. Today is a different age but one in which there is still room for justice, compassion and common sense.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:04 AM

I have around fifty, Cheating the Tide [Martin Carthy guitar 3 tracks] VINYL LPS in mint condition,stored in a safe house in England.I intend to put these up on my website next autumn.
but this is little compensation for me,as I do not have permission,to issue this lp as a cd,which would probably sell much faster than vinyl lps.
Meanwhile concertina enthusiasts are denied access to the second recording of The New Mexborough Concertina Quartet.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:45 AM

Big List, But here you go.
How many of the below are still extant, I know not.
But, read and weep.
Ralph Jordan

LEA 4001 Jack Elliott Jack Elliott of Birtley [With booklet] [Leader - orange label] (1969)
Little chance; Brokken tanner; (Jews' harp); Unlucky duck; Broom's reel; Rakes of Mallow (mouth organ); Lassie would ye lo'e me?; Silent budgie (story); Golden slippers; Poor black Joe (banjo); Blind fool; Man with no watch (story); Harrin's Head; Rap her to bank; Jowl, jowl and Listen; Farewell to the 'Cotia; Rowan tree (mouth organ); Banks of the Dee; Parable of the lost shekels; Irish washerwoman; Father O'Flynn (mouth organ); Old man; On yon bottle bank; Just before the battle mother; My old man; Stanley Market; Paddy McGinty's goat; Highland whisky; De'il among the tailors (mouth organ); Preacher and the atheist (story); In the bar room (Jew's harp).
LER 3002 Archie Fisher; Barbara Dickson; John MacKinnon Fate o' Charlie [Trailer - white test label] (1969)
Cam ye o'er frae France [AF]; Three healths; Wha wadna fight for Charlie [AF]; White cockade [BD]; My bonny Highland laddie [JM]; Highland widow's lament [BD]; Prestonpans; Battle of Prestonpans [AF]; Killicrankie [AF]; O'er the water to Charlie [BD]; Prince Charlie; Highland Harry [BD]; Fate o' Charlie [JM]; Highlander's lament [AF]; O'er the water; Flowers o' the forest [BD].
LEA 2003 Seamus Ennis Seamus Ennis [Masters of Irish Music Series] [Leader - turquoise label] (1969)
Uuillean pipes: Pinch of snuff; Fairie's hornpipe; Gold ring; Fairy straying; Song: False hearted lover; Whistle: Ditherum doodah; Bird's chorus; Uillean pipes: Lark in the morning; Lark's march.
LEA 2004 Martin Byrnes   Martin Byrnes [Masters of Irish Music series] [Reg Hall (piano)] [Leader - turquoise label] (1969)
Duke of Leinster reel; Duke of Leinster's wife reel; Paddy Fahey's jig; Cliffs of Moher jig; Tarbolton reel; Longford Collector reel; Sailor's bonnet reel; Banty Bay hornpipe; Stack of barley hornpipe; Farewell to Ireland reel; Irish Molly reel; Ashplant reel; Liffey Banks reel; Shaskeen reel; Hitler's downfall jig; Battle of Aughrim polka; Humours of Lissadel reel; Blackbird; Rodney's glory; Collier's reel; Bucks of Oranmore reel.
LEA 2005 Seamus Tansey   Seamus Tansey [Masters of Irish Music series] [Seamus Tansey - flute, tin whistle, tambourine; Eddie Corcoran - tin whistle, tambourine; Reg Hall - piano; Paul Gross - piano (1970)
Reels: Jackie Coleman's No 1 / No 2; The Morning Dew; Boys of Laoise; Miss Monaghan; Colonel Frazer / Miss McLeod's; O'Rourke's / The Wild Irishman; The Bloom of Youth / Lord MacDonald's; The Steam Packet / The Limestone Rock; Pigeon on the Gate / The Reel of Mullinavat. Jigs: Tansey's Favourite / The Bride's Favourite; The Maid of St Kisco / Tom Ward's Downfall; Farewell to Gurteen / Kid on the Mountain; The Cliffs of Moher / Paddy Fahy's; The Battering Ram; Corcoran's Fancy. Hornpipes: Birmingham / Leitrim Fancy.
LEA 4006 Billy Pigg Border Minstrel [grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1971)
High Level hornpipe; Biddleston hornpipe; Carrick hornpipe; I'll get wedded in my auld claes hornpipe; Gentle maiden; Lark in the clear air; Father O'Flynn; Skye crofters; Dr McLeod of Alnwick; Swallow's tail reel; Mallorca H.R.H Duke of Windsor]; Madame Bonaparte; Last of the twins; King of the pipers; Crookit bawbee; Bill Charlton's fancy; Exhibition hornpipe; Billy Pigg's hornpipe; Random jig; Wild hills of Wannies; J R Pigg; Dargai; Happy hours; There's nae guid luck about the house (variations); Holey Happenny.
LER 2007 The High Level Ranters The Lads Of Northumbria [High Level Ranters - Alistair Anderson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Colin Ross] [Trailer - white test label] (1969)
Drops of brandy; Foxhunter's jig; Rocky road to Dublin; Spey in spate; Tusca; College Valley Hunt [Johnny Handle]; Sir John Fenwick's 'The flower among them all'; Baby lie easy [Tom Gilfellon]; Dingle Regatta; Father Kelly's jig; Wedding of Blyth; Andrew Carr; Golden eagle; Sunshine; Johnny Armstrong [Colin Ross]; Derwentwater's farewell [Colin Ross]; Ned of the hill [Colin Ross]; Buy broom besoms [Johnny Handle]; Underhill; Scallowa' lassies; De'il stick the minister; Hares on the mountain [Tom Gilfellon]; Trumpet hornpipe; Cadum Wood.
LER 3008 Bob Davenport Bob Davenport and the Marsden Rattlers [Marsden rattlers - Jim Bainbridge, Susan Bainbridge, Jim Boyles, Jim Irvine, John Lincoln, Tom Montgomery, Derek Proctor, Trevor Sheridan] [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Granny's old armchair; Gipsy girl; Early, early in the spring; Old miner; I wish I was single again; Nell; Mucking of Geordie's byre; Cock of the North; Hey! Canny man; I wish they'd do it now; Bonny bunch of roses; Nineteen thirties; Jarrow shipbuilder; Trimdon Grange disaster; Champion he was a dandy; Geordieland 68.
LER 2009 Martyn Wyndham-Read Ned Kelly and that gang [Trailer - white test label] (1970)
Ned Kelly; Ben Hall's gang; Streets of Forbes; Convict maid; Moreton Bay; Wild colonial boy; Jim Jones; Lament for Ben Hall; Cypress brig; Death of Ben Hall; Stringybark Creek; Farewell to Greta; Ned Kelly.
LER 3010 Lea Nicholson Horsemusic [Performers include - Tim Hart, Maddy Prior, Gay Woods, Terry Woods] [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Here we come a-wassailing; Glory of the North; Greenland bound; Lea Rigs; I live not where I love; I'm the urban spaceman; Bach, Johannes Sebastian - Trio sonata for two manuals and pedal: allegro; Along the Rossendale; Coast of Peru; False knight on the road; Kopya; All through the beer.
LER 2011 Robin & Barry Dransfield Rout of the Blues [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Rout of the Blues; Scarborough Fair; St Clemet's jig; Huntsmen's chorus; Nancy; Waters of Tyne; Earl of Totnes; Tapestry; Trees they do grow high; Week before Easter; Fair maid walking all in her garden; Who's the fool now?
LEA 4012 Various artists Blue Ridge Mountain Field Trip - various artists at the Galax Fiddler's Convention [With 8 page booklet] [Leader - Buff label] (1970)
Hubert Caldwell: Ox bow quadrille; Constitution hornpipe; Staten Island hornpipe; Old Virginia waltz. Sue Draheim, Buddy Pendleton, Mac Benford: Peeler Creek waltz. Carl Flemming, Buddy Pendleton: Liberty; Rutland's reel. Gray Craig, Doug Rorrer, Janet Kerr: Soldier's joy. Gray Cragi, North Carolina Ramblers: Richmond. John Hil: Sweet sunny south; Sugar in the gourd. John Hilt, Tex Isley (guitar): Silver threads among the gold; Reidsville blues; Buck; Live and let live; Nobody's business. John Hilt, Roger Sprun, Joan Sprung (guitar): Devil's dream. Gray Craig, Doug Rorrer: Under the double eagle.
LER 2013 Tony Rose Young Hunting [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford; Bellringing; Young Hunting; Golden Vanitee; Up to the rigs; Three butchers; Royal Oak; Blackwaterside; Parson and the clerk; Tavistock Goosey Fair.
LER 2014 Nic Jones Ballads and songs [Trailer - yellow label] (1970)
Sir Patrick Spens; Butcher and the tailor's wife; Duke of Marlborough; Annan Water; Noble Lord Hawkins; Don't you be foolish pray; Outlandish knight; Reynard the fox; Little Musgrave.
LER 3015 Leon Rosselson Word is hugga mugga chugga lugga humbugga boom chit [with Roy Bailey and Martin Carthy] [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Hugga mugga chugga lugga humbugga boom chit; Garden of stone; Invisible man; Never mind the slugs; Word market; Do you remember?; William; I don't want to die; Remembrance Day
LER 3016 Bob & Carole Pegg He came from the mountains [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Rise up Jock; Scorpion departs but never returns; Lord of the dance; He came from the mountains; Love song number 2; Jimmy's letters; Angeline; Susan's song.
LER 2017 Dave & Toni Arthur Hearken to the witches rune [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Alison Gross; Tam Lin; Fairy tale; Fairy child; Broomfield Hill; Standing stones; Cruel mother; Alice Brand.
LER 3018 Rosemary Hardman & Bob Axford Second season came [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Lady for today; Will Taylor; Andrew; For Midge and the rest; Strangely moved; Oto's rag; There had to be some changes made; Mosaic; Lord Huntley; This man; Butterfly; Out on the bridge.
LER 2019 Various artists Folk Trailer - introduced by Jim Lloyd [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Rout of the Blues [R & B Dransfield]; Bellringing [T Rose]; Lazlo Feher [D & T Arthur]; Jack broke the prison door [A Bain, M Whellans]; Donald Blue [A Bain, M Whellans]; Wha'll dance wi' Willie Wattie [A Bain, M Whellans]; Strangely moved [R Hardman, B Axford]; Love song number 2 [B & C Pegg]; Wild colonial boy [M Wyndham-Read]; Bonny at morn [R Fisher, C Ross]; Cam ye o'er frae France [A Fisher]; Reynard the fox [N Jones] Drops of brandy [High Level Ranters]; Foxhunter's jig [High Level Ranters]; Rocky road to Dublin [High Level Ranters]; Bright morning star [Young Tradition].
LER 2020 The High Level Ranters Keep your feet still Geordie hinnie [High Level Ranters Orchestra - Alistair Anderson, Clem Avery, Colin Beal, Foster Charlton, Albert Gelson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Ronald McLean, Colin Ross, Tom Waugh] [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Keep your feet still Geordie hinny; Pawnshop bleezin; Lambton worm; Come Geordie, ha'd the bairn; Geordie Black; Adam Buckham; Cushie Butterfield; Neighbours doon belaa; Nannie's amaizor; Weshin day; Last neet; Blaydon Races.
LER 3021 Roy Bailey Roy Bailey [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Three butchers; Bitter withy; Dust to dust; Thornaby Woods; How should I your true love know?; Fair maid walking; Poverty knock; Clerk Saunders; No sir no; Dalesman's litany; Palaces of gold.
LER 2022 Aly Bain & Mike Whellans Aly Bain - Mike Whellans [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Jack broke the door; Donald Blue; Wha'll dance wi' Wattie; Jimmy Clay; Maple sugar; Whistlin' through the pines; Buckin' mule; Sweet Georgia Brown; Lucky can du link ony; Foostra; Aandown' at the bow; Fiddler's Green; Willie MacIntosh; Cooley's reel; Neil Gow's lament for his second wife; Steppin' out.
LER 2023 Derek & Dorothy Elliott Derek and Dorothy Elliott [Trailer - red label] (1972)
May dew; Jack the sailor; Tally ho the hounds; Wassail song; Bring us a barrel; Adieu to judges and juries; John Barleycorn; Maria Marten; He that will not merry, merry be; Cornstalk; Robber bridegroom; Lady Maisry.
LER 2024 Tony Rose Under the greenwood tree [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Jockie to the fair; Bridgewater Fair; Just as the tide was flowing; Lark in the morning; Searching for lambs; Basket of eggs; John Blunt; True lovers; Grad conversation on Napoleon; Sheath and knife; Limbo; Trees they do grow high.
LER 2025 Pisces Pisces [Pisces - Richard Digance; Tim Greenwood; John O'Connor] [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Bright new morning; Ballad of Benjamin Bratt; After the night; Jack O'Legs; If I sing you a song; Midsummer symphony; Sam the one eyed snail; Poker Joe.
LER 2026 Robin & Barry Dransfield Lord of all I behold [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Faithful Johnny; Bold Nelson's favourite; Who liveth so merry; Adam and the beasts; Lord of all I behold; Paddy Ryan's dream; Still he sings; Bold William Taylor; Just as the tide was flowing; Wild rover.
LER 2027 Nic Jones Nic Jones [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Lass of London city; Napoleon's lamentation; Bonny bunch of roses; Edward; Outlandish knight; William and Nancy's parting; Lord Bateman; Dance to your daddy; Two brothers; Banks of green willow.
LER 2028 Martyn Wyndham-Read Martyn Wyndham-Read [Trailer - yellow label]. (1971)
Green bushes; Gentle Annie; Banks of Claudy; Jamie Raeburn; Johnny Sands; Main from Buncloudy; Ryebuck shearer; Garten mother's lullaby; Overlander; Wee one; Lost sailor; Oh for me grog.
LER 2029 Dave Burland Dalesman's litany [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Here's the tender coming; Black cook; Lord Lovel; Blacksmith; Dalesman's litany; Beggar; William Taylor; Brisk young widow; Bleacher lassie o' Kelvinhaugh; Rosie Anderson.
LER 2030 The High Level Ranters High Level [High Level Ranters - Alistair Anderson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Colin Ross] [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Felton Lonnin; Till the tide comes in; Stay a wee bit bonnie lad; Plains of Waterloo; Hens march; Broken legged chicken; Black cock of Whickham; Trepanner song; Jolly beggar; Papa Stour; Monday morning; Through the fields reel; Tarbolton Lodge reel; I drew my ship; Hartigan's fancy; Tobin's favourite; High Level Bridge hornpipe.
LER 3031 Keith Roberts Pier of the realm [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Blackpool blues; Cage; Pit yard accident; Cobbled streets; Eawt on t' rooks; Maypole disaster; World out of coal; Lament for Albert; Goo an' cleyn thi cogs; Closing of the doss house; Last days of steam.
LER 2032 Swan Arcade Swan Arcade [Swan Arcade - Dave Brady, Heather Brady, Jim Boyes] [Trailer - yellow label] (1973)
Bright shining morning; Anti-Gallician privateer; Battle of Sowerby Bridge; Admiral Benbow; Rol, Alabama, roll; Last Valentine's Day; Lord Willoughby; Hunt is up; Peat bog soldiers; All the good times.
LER 2033 John Kirkpatrick Jump at the sun [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Devil among the tailors; Roving journeyman; Jolly ploughboys; Alle Psallite; Rambling comber; Arrnagement of Morris tunes including - Morris call, I'll go and enlist for a sailor, Cuckoo's nest [three versions], Old woman tossed up in a blanket, Rose, Black joke, Maid of the mill [two versions], Bonny green garters; Widow of Westmorland's daughter; Princess Royal; Mattheson, Johann: Gigue No. 4; Once I loved a maiden fair; Dust to dust; Puddlegum's misery hornpipe; Accordianism jig; Jump at the sun jig.
LER 3034 Roger Nicholson Nonesuch for dulcimer [with Robert Johnson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Nonesuch; Medieval garden; In good King Arthur's day; Rakes of Mallow; Bach, Johann Sebastian: Suite for cello No. 6 - gavotte in D; Newlyn Town; Howie's tune; God rest ye merry, gentlemen; Bonny lass o Fyvvio; MacPherson's rant; O'er the river Charlie; Fugue for sulcimer; Laily worm and the mackerel of the sea; Spring season; Appalachian two step; Sheep stealer; Shady grove variations.
LER 3035 Christy Moore Prosperous
LER 3036 The Green Linnet   Tim Lyons   (1972)
You Rambling Boys of Pleasure; Lake of Coolfin; Skillet Pot; Green Fields of Canada; Greem Linnet; Limerick Rake; Van Dieman's Land, Stick to the Crater; Am Bunan Buide (The Yellow Bittern); An Droimin Don Dilis (The Sweet Brown Cow).
LER 2037 The High Level Ranters Mile to ride [High Level Ranters - Alistair Anderson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Colin Ross] [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Nae gud luck jig; Charlie Hunter jig; Cold and raw; Beeswing hornpipe; Archie Menzies reel; Border widow's lament; Mile to ride slip jig; Jockey lay up in the hayloft slip jig; Shoemaker; Shepherd's life; A U me hinny bird; Newcastle hornpipe; Gateshead hornpipe; Long Lankin; Gillan the drover; Niel Gow's wife; Dark island; Laird of Drumblair strathspey; Angus Campbell reel.
LER 2038 Ray Fisher Bonnie birdy [Performers include: Alistair Anderson; Bobby Campbell; Martin Carthy; Tim Hart; Ashley Hutchings; Peter Knight; Colin Ross; Liz Sobell; Stefan Sobell] [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Johnny Sangster; Mill o' Tifty's Annie; Bonny at morn; Forfar sodger; Pride of Glencoe; Silkie of Sul Skerry; Shipyard apprentice; Bonny birdy.
LER 2039 Mike Harding Lancashire lad [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
German clockwinder; Walls of Jericho; Lancashire lads; Three ha'pence a foot; Hand waver and the factory maid; keyhole in the door; Number eighty one bus; Cock and the ass; Sodom and Gomorrah; July wakes; Hattersley lament.
LEA 4040 Gray Craig and the new North Carolina Ramblers and Tex Islay North Carolina Boys . [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1972)
Run boy, run; Redwing; Shanty Town; Dark Town Strutters' Ball; Letter edged in black; Fly around my pretty little miss; Polecat blues; Old Joe Clark; Walking in my sleep; Greenfields; Silver Bells; North Carolina Boys; Flop-eared mule; Fourteen days in Georgia; Precious memories; Will you be true?
LEA 4041 Charlie Wills [Grey gatefold with integral 16 page booklet] [Leader - orange label]. (1972)
Derby Ram; Barbara Allen; Banks of sweet Dundee; Germany clockmaker; Game of cards; Up to the rigs of London town; Corduroy; Brennan on the moor; Ruth Butcher; Household remedies; Our goodman; Go and leave me; Oak and the ash.
LEE 4042 George Dunn George Dunn [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1973)
Oyster girl; Cold blows the wind; Edward; Miller's song; Nottingham poacher; Young sailor bold; Here we come a-wazlin'; Nelson's death; John Riley; Henry my son; Oh, it was my cruel parents; Gallant poachers; All fours.
LEA 2043 John Doonan Flute for the Feis [Leader - turquoise label] (1972)
Sean Maguire's reel; McMahon's reel; Hunt; Smash the windows jig; Off she goes jig; Bonaparte's retreat; Sport of the chase slip jig; Flowers of Antrim hornpipe; Quarrelsome piper hornpipe; An Coolin; Fermoy lassies reel; Sporting Paddy reel; Dawn reel; Ace and deuce of pipering; Saddle the pony slow jig; Shandon bells slow jig; Little heathy hill; King of the fairies; Eileen Aroon; Bonny Kate reel; Jenny's chickens reel.
LEA 2044 Coleman Country Traditional Society Music from the Coleman Country   [Coleman Country Traditional Society - Andrew Davey, Jim Donaghue, Seamus Donaghue, Bernie Finn, Fred Finn, Oliver Killoran, John Joe Mooney, John O'Gara, Peter Horan, Seamus Tansey, Tommy Toolan] [Leader - turquoise label] (1972)
O'Rourke's reel; Wild Irishman reel; Laurel tree reel; Blackthorn stick reel; Willie Coleman's jig; Brendan Tone Rowe's jig No 2; Musical priest reel; Trim the velvet reel; Cuckoo hornpipe; Boys at the lough reel; Devils of Dublin reel; Wise maid reel; Strike the gay harp jig; Lough Gowna jig; Lord Gordon's reel; Fox chase rel; Killavil jig; Lilting banshee jig; Kid on the mountain jig; Miss McLeod's reel; Michael Rilly's reel; Martin Wynn's reel No 2; Anachuin; Morning dew reel; Woman of the house reel; Rakish Paddy reel.
LEE 4045 Lonnie Austin & Norman Woodlieff Lonnie Austin & Norman Woodlieff
LEAB 404 Copper Family Song for Every Season - the singing tradition of the Copper Family of Rottingdean, Sussex [Boxed set of 4 records with 16 page booklet] (1971)
LEA 4046 - Tater Beer Night [Leader - orange label]
Dame Durdon; By the green grove; Spencer the rover; Charming Molly; Sweep chimney sweep; Rose of Allandale; Pleasant month of May; When spring comes on; Spotted cow; Wop She 'ad it i-o; Week before Easter; Brisk and lively lad.
LEA 4047 - Black Ram [Leader - orange label]
Sheep shearing song; Adieu sweet lovely Nancy; Claudy banks; Sweet lemeney, Corduroy; Come all bold Britons; No John no; Shepherd's song; Thousands or more; Shepherd of the Downs; As I walked out.
LEA 4048 - Hollerin' Pot [Leader - orange label]
Seamen bold; When Adam was first created; Lawyer bold; Gentlemen of high renown; My love has gone; Battle of Alma; Warlike seamen; Brisk and bonny lad; Sportsmen arouse; Admiral Benbow; Wind across the moor; Oh good ale.
LEA 4049 - Turn o' the Year [Leader - orange label]
Shepherds arise; Softly the night; Christmas song; Babes in the wood; Dying soldier; Brisk young ploughboy; Heigh ho sing ivy; Jolly good song; Two young brethren; Ploughshare; Come write me down.
LEA 4050 Unto Brigg Fair Various artists   [Grey gatefold with integral with 20 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label].   (1972)
Joseph Taylor: Sprig o' thyme; Died for love; Brigg Fair; White hare; Lord Bateman; Rufford Park Poachers; Gipsy's wedding day; Worcester City; Creeping Jane; Murder of Maria Martin; Sprig o' thyme; Bold William Taylor. Mr Thompson: Lord Bateman. Joseph Leaning: Green bushes; Sheffield apprentice. George Gouldthorpe: Horkstow Grange. Joseph Taylor: Landlord and tenant; Bold Nevison. George Wray: Lord Melbourne. Dean Robinson: Bold Robin Hood; T'owd yowe wi' one horn.
LED 2051 Irish Music from The Favourite   Jimmy Power (fiddle), Tony Ledwith (accordeon), Tom Power (guitar), Paul Gross (piano), Reg Hall (piano). (1971)
Jigs: Statia Donelly's / Mick Gorman's Fancy. Reels: Last Night's Fun / Martin Wynn's; The Woman of the House / The Morning Dew; The Donegal / The Mooncoin; Toss the Feathers / Cooley's / The Earl's Chair; Paddy Malynn's / The Green Groves; Kitty's Gone a-Milking / Miss Thornton; The Tempest / Colonel Rodney / John Morrison; Bonny Ann / Miss Johnson; The Mistress / St Anne's; The Copperplate / The Kilmaley / The Pigeon on the Gate / The Maid of Castlebar. Set Dance: Princess Royal. Jigs: Willy Clancy's / Mag Long's; Lanigan's Ball / Gallagher's Frolics; The Kesh. Hornpipe: Sean Ryan's Fancy; Hornpipe Selection.
LED 2052 Da Forty Fiddlers, Cullivoe Traditional Players, Tom Anderson, Aly Bain Shetland Fiddlers [Leader - turquoise label] (1973)
Forty Fiddlers: Galley Watch; Kail and knockit corn; Burn o' Weinerdalittle; Fashion o' da Delting lassies; Oliver Jack; Willafjord; Shaalds o' Foula; Garster's dream; Brig; Faeroe rum; Aandowin' at da bow; Forfeit o' da ship; Come agen ye're welcome; Black hat. Cullinvoe Traditional Players: Faery reel; De'il amang the tailors; Spence's reel; Lay de at dee; Oot and In da harbour; High road to Linton. Bobby Jamieson, Willie Barclay Henderson: Yellow haired lassie; Sleep soond ida mornin'. Willie Barclay Henderson, John Henderson: Crab and da capstan; Haad da thing ta Gibbie. Tom Anderson, Aly Bain: Wynadelba; Soldier's joy. Forty Fiddlers: Craw dang pussy; Whattle o't; Gordon's favourite; Laird o' Gulberwick; Auld hill grind; Fram ipon him; Jack broke da prison door; Donal' Blue; Sail 'er o'er da raftrees; De'il stick da minister; Taste da green; Harlock's reel; Robertson's reel; Hamefarers; Sixareen.
LED 2053 Virginia Reel Fiddle and banjo tunes recorded in Galax, Virginia. [Leader - turquoise label] (1974)
Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Dance all night. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson: Roustabout. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Redwing. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Old country church. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell: John Hardy. Parley Gray, Bobby Patterson: Weeping Willow. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Pig in the pen. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Cacklin' hen; Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell: Lost Indian. Parley Gray, Bobby Patterson, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Sunny side of the mountain. Parley Grey, Bobby Patterson: Sweet sunny South. Parley Grey, Bobby Patterson: Coleman Ridge backstep. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell: Soldier's joy. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: I don't love nobody.
LEE 4054 Cecilia Costello Cecilia Costello - recording from the sound archives of the BBC [grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1975)
Cruel mother; I wish, I Wwish; There was a squire in Edinboro' lived; Wexford murder; Handsome cabin boy; Betsy of Ballantown Brae; Jew's garden; I am a maid that's deep in love; Wedding song; Shule agra; Lover's ghost.
LEA 4055 Various artists Old British ballads of Donegal and Derry - Traditional singers collected by Hugh Shields. With booklet. (1975)
John Ban: The Dark Eyed Gypsy; Little Sir Hugh. Joe McCafferty: John Barbour (Willie o' Wynsbury). Willy Duggan: Baile Leo (Two Sisters). Susie Phaidi Oig: The Weary Gallows. Mr X: Willy O. John Flemming: The Hillman (Our Goodman). Eddie Butcher: The Bride Stolen by Fairies (Tam Lin); The Widow's Daughter. Alec Foster: Stock and Wall; The Creel. Charlie Somers: Barbro Allen. Mrs Tilly Quigley: The Dark-Eyed Gypsy.
LEE 4056 A Fine Hunting Day   Songs of the Holme Valley Beagles [Grey gatefold with integral 12 page booklet] [Leadr - orange label] (1975)
On a fine hunting morn; Castle Hill anthem; Old Snowball; Scent was good; Brown hare of Whitebrook; Gossip John; Hounds are out; Joe the carrier's lad; Some gentlemen take great delight; Doctor Mack; Holmfirth Anthem.
LEE 4057 Far Canadian Fields Companion to the Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs. Various artists   [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1975)
Mr & Mrs Albert Simms: Loss of the Ellen Munn; Clyde Gilmour: H'Emmer Jane. Jim Docherty: When the shanty boy come down. Lennox Gavan: Lake of the Caogama. Mr & Mrs Albert Simms: Young Spanish lass. John Leahy: Lonesome scenes of winter. Mrs Arlington Fraser: Jolly raftsman o. O J Abbott: By the hush, me boys; Captain Charles Cates: Life in the prairie shack. Mrs Arlington Fraser: Young MacDonald. Mrs Eva Bigrow: Willie drowned in Ero. O J Abbott: Plains of Waterloo; Bonny bunch of roses o; O J Abbott: Weaver. Robert J Campbell: Seven gypsies on yon hill. Emerson Woodcock: Footboy.
058 Not issued
059 Not issued
LED 2060 John J Kimmel Early recordings of Irish traditional dance music   (1977)
Reels: Cuckoo's Nest / Mason's Apron; Jigs: Rakes of Kildare /Devlin's Favourite; Reels: Bonnie Kate / Swallow's Tail / Star of Munster; Medley of Clogs; Jigs: Haste to the Wedding/ Larry O'Gaff / Colairne; Irish Boy March; Jigs: Haley's Favorite; Hornpipes: Rights of Man / Liverpool / Sailor's; Reels: Floggan Reel / Cup of Tea; Jigs: Three Little Drummers / Connaughtman's Ramble / To the Ladies / Devlin's Favourite; Hornpipes: Bryant's Favourite / Birds in the Tree; Jigs: Contentment is Wealth / Untitled; Reels: Salmango / Off Key; Reels: Stack of Barley / Blackberry Blossoms / Green Fields of America; Jig: The Trip to the Cottage.
061 Not issued
LEE 4062 John Maguire Come Day, Go Day, God Send Sunday [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1973)
Molly Bawn Lowry; Marrowbones; Bonny Irish boy; Thousands are sailing to Amerikay; Bonny wee lassie that never said no; My charming Mary; Constant farmer's son; Joe Higgins; Handsome collier lad; Dick Mooney's daughter; In praise of John Magee; Lovely Jane from Enniskea.
LED 2063 Walter Pardon Proper Sort   [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Leader - yellow label]   (1975)
Poacher's fate; Let the wind blow high or low; Old Brown's daughter; Rambling blade; Van Dieman's land; Dark eyed sailor; Trees they do grow high; Ship to England came; Miller and his sons; British man-of-war; Jack Tar ashore.
064 Not issued
LEE 4065 A People's Carol   A Christmas singing tradition recorded in South Yorkshire pubs. [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [orange label] (1975)
Hark, hark what news [Black Bull, Ecclesfield]; While shepherds (Liverpool) [Fountain, Ingbirchworth]; Jacob's Well [White Hart, Oughtibridge]; Christmas tree [Royal Hotel, Dungworth]; Arise, arise good Christians [Royal Hotel, Dungworth]; Hail! Smiling morn [Fountain, Ingbirchworth]; Star of Bethlehem [White Hart, Oughtibridge]; While shepherds (Foster) [Fountain, Oughtibridge]; Ring out ye bells [Black Bull, Ecclesfield]; Six jolly miners [Black Bull, Ecclesfield]; Merry Christmas [Toyal Hotel, Dungworth].
066 Not issued
LED 2067 Copper Family Song For Every Season - the Copper Family of Rottingdean, Sussex   [Tracks from the 4LP set] [Leader - yellow label] (1971)
Pleasant month of May; Sheep shearing song; When Adam was first created; Adieu sweet lovely Nancy; Wop she 'ad it-io; Wind across the moor; Claudy banks; Shepherds arise; You gentlemen of high renown; My love has gone; Come write me wown; Spencer the rover; Thousands or more.
LED 2068 Stephen Baldwin English Village Fiddler - BBC recordings by Peter Kennedy, 13 October 1952 [Leader - orange label] (1976)
Gloucester hornpipe [called Liverpool hornpipe on BBC list]; Greensleeves; Haste to the wedding; Flanagan's ball; Girl I left behind me; Irish washerwoman; Liverpool Hornpipe [called Swansea hornpipe on BBC list]; Napoleon's march; Cottage hornpipe [Fisher's hornpipe]; Untitled hornpipe [Liverpool hornpipe]; Off she goes; Pop goes the weasel; Coleford jig; Ted Smith's hornpipe; Untitled polka; Cock o' the north; Soldier's joy; College hornpipe [called Gipsy hornpipe and Gloucester hornpipe on BBC list]; Irish jig [Rory O'More]; Old fashioned waltz; Untitled schottische No 1; Untitled schottische No 2; Heel and toe polka; Varsoviana [not the tune usually known by this title]; Untitled hornpipe [Morpth rant]; Cabbages and onions [Phillebelulah, Cumberland reel, King of the Cannibal Isle] [called Double dee doubt, Double lead out on the BBC list]; Pretty little dear [Triumph, Stp and fetch her, Shave the donkey]; Just as the tide was flowing; Anywhere does for me (song).
LEA 2069 Beresford Band Yorkshire Dales Dance Night   [Beresford Band - Peter Beresford (electronic accordion), Mary Beresford (drums), John Wallbank (fiddle)] [Leader - orange label] (1977)
Friendly waltz; Maxina; Eva three step; Waltz Marie; Military two step; Doris waltz; Royal empress tango; Breakaway blues; St Bernard's waltz.
LED 2070 Eddie Butcher Shamrock, Rose and Thistle [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Leader - orange label] (1976)
Mountain streams where the moorcock crows; Daysman; Man, woman and mouse; David's flowery vale; Tossing the hay; Conversation; Creel of peats; Killyclare; Fan; Don't come again; Farmer's daughter; Youghal harbour; Ship's carpenters wife; Another man's wedding.
LED 2071 The Rakes   The Rakes [Rakes - Paul Gross, Reg Hall, Michael Plunkett] [Leader - turquoise label] (1975)
Babes in the wood polka; All the way to Galway polka; Dashing white sergeant reel; Bottom of the punch bowl reel; Greensleeves schottische; Harry Cox's schottische; Carry me down to Carlow schottische; Geese in the bog jig; Butcher's march jig; Jimmy Garson's march; Lucy Farr's jig No 1; Lucy Farr's jig No 2; Carraroe jig; Mug of brown ale jig; Honeysuckle hornpipe; Pound Hill hornpipe; Bold Reynolds waltz; Gaelic waltz; Maggie Pickens schottische; Ma McNulty's schottische; Lucy Farr's polka No 1; Lucy Farr's polka No 2; Molly in the wood polka; Tralee Gaol polka; Maggie in the wood polka.
LER 2072 Dick Gaughan No more forever [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Rattlin', roarin' Willie; Briar's britches; MacCrimmon's lament; Mistress Jamieson's favourite; Jock o' Hazeldean; Cam ye ower frae France: Bonnie banks of Fordie; Thatchers o' Glenrae; Fair flower of Northumberland; Teetotaller; Tushker; Three healths; John MacLean march; Green linnet.
LER 2073 Al O'Donnell Al O'Donnell
LER 2074 Alistair Anderson Plays English concertina [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Noble Squire Dacre; Dookin' for apples reel; Doon reel; New policeman reel; Music in the glen reel; Kid on the mountain slip jig; Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonata No. 6 in E - Minuets 1 and 2, Bouree; Entertainer; Hill o' Finnigirt reel; Black hat reel; Madame Bonaparte; Bach, Johann Sebastian: Suite in B minor - polonaise; City of Savannah hornpipe; Poppy leaf hornpipe; Another jig will do slip jig; To Limerick we go slip jig; Hunt the hare slip jig; Dorrington lads jig; Hawk reel; Left handed sailor reel.
LER 2075 Rosemary Hardman Firebird [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Firebird; I can find you anywhere; Way it is; Mistress of my time; Who shall count for thee?; Song to the evening sky; Horses of the sea; King William's bequests; Fiddler man; Rondeau.
LES 2076 Watersons Bright Phoebus [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Performers include - Martin Carthy, Bob Davenport, Clare Deniz, Dennis Field, Richard Gold, Gordon Graham, Tim Hart, Ashley Hutchings, Sue Kirkpatrick, Bill Leader, Dave Mattacks, Keith Nichols, Maddy Prior, Sammy Rimmington, Richard Thompson, Bernie Vickers] [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Rubber band; Scarecrow; Fine horseman; Winifer Odd; Danny Rose; Child among the weeds; Magical man; Never the same; To make you stay; Shady lady; Red wine and promises; Bright Phoebus.
LER 2077 Pete and Chris Coe Open the door and let us in [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Acting song; Banks of the red roses; Cheshire May Day carol; Lady Diamond; False knight; Joseph Baker; Wizard of Alderley Edge; Wife of Usher's Well; Egloshayle Ringers; Plains of Waterloo; Hugh of Lincoln; Gay fusilier.
LER 2078 Vin Garbutt Valley of Tees [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Danny Danielle; Johnny Hart; Glens of sweet Mayo; Gallagher's frolics jig; Sally garden's reel; High reel; Valley of Tees; Barney Brallaghan's courtship; Tim le Blanc; Pat O'Donnell; White hart; Garbutt's favourite; Streets of Staithes; Mr Gunman.
LER 2079 Tom Gilfellon Loving mad Tom [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Mad Tom of Bedlam; Outlandish knight; American stranger; George Collins; Cruel mother; Dust song; Keech I' the creel; We had not been a-sailing; Garratt Barry's favourite; Frieze britches; Free and easy; Foggy, foggy dew; October song.
LER 2080 Taverners Blowing sands [[Taverners - Alan Bell, Pete Rodger, Brian Osborne, Stuat Robinson] [Trailer - red label] (1973)
Lark in the morning; Ladies dance at Whitsun; Blowing sands; Young and single sailor; Rape of Glencoe; I'm looking for a job; Sir Thomas Tylesley; Windmills; La Pique; Sambo's song; Lord Middleton; Dark island.
LER 2081 Vin Garbutt Young tin whistle pest [Trailer - red label] (1975)
Coolie's reel; My loves in Germany; Black horse; Black Lion maggot; Howard Green; Cuckoo hornpipe; Sean sa ceoigh; Slaggy Island farewell; Chemical worker's song; Dunphy's hornpipe; Rattigan's reel; Lover's ghost.
082 Not issued
LER 2083 Jon Raven, Nic Jones, Tony Rose Songs of a changing world [with booklet] [Trailer - yellow label] (1973)
Rosemary; Wedgefield Wakes; Travelling people; Bad squire; Lancashire lads; Wife for sale; Poverty knock; Grinders; Hold the fort; Nailmaker's strike; Jolly Joe the collier's son; You won't get me down in your mine; Blantyre Explosion.
LER 2084 Marie Little Marie Little
LER 2085 Muckram Wakes Map of Derbyshire [Muckram Wakes - John Tams, Helen Watson, Roger Watson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1973)
Spencer the rover; Winster processional theme; Cruise of the Sun Glory; Cathy Shaw; Poor old horse; Watercress-o; Mrs Merry's Ball; Winster gallop polka; Cow i' th' gate; Squire of Tamworth; Fifty years ago; Gilliver; Bone lace weaver; Mallard; Dumper; Pulling down song.
LER 2086 Boys of the Lough Boys of the Lough [Boys of the Lough - Aly Bain, Dick Gaughan, Cathal McConnell, Robin Morton] [Trailer - Red label] (1973)
Boys of the Lough reel; Slanty Gart reel; In praise of John Magee; Wedding march from Unst; Bride's a bonny thing march; Sleep soond i' da morning march; Farewell to whiskey; Old Joe's jig; Last night's joy reel; Granny in the corner reel; Old oak tree; Caoineadh Eoghan Rua lament; Nine points of roguery; Doherty's reel; Flowing tide hornpipe; Andrew Lammie; Sheebeg and Sheemor; Boys in the gap; McMahon's reel; Jackson and Jane; Shaalds o' Foulla; Garster's dream; Brig.
LETSAM 2087 Various artists Our Folk Music Heritage [Trailer - yellow label] (1975)
Three butchers [R Bailey]; Docherty's reel [High Level Ranters]; Flowing tide [High Level Ranters]; Ower the water [B Dickson]; Dorrington lads [A Anderson]; Fiddler's Green [A Bain, M Whellans]; Skillet pot [T Lyons]; Shoemaker [High Level Ranters]; Rattling, roaring Willie [D Gaughan]; Friar's britches [D Gaighan]; Little Musgrave [N Jones]; Johnny Armstrong [C Ross]; Derwentwater's farewell [C Ross]; Ned of the hill [C Ross]; Valley of Tees [V Garbutt]; Bony birdie [R Fisher].
LER 2088 Bob Davenport, Rakes, Boldon Banjos Pal of My Cradle Days   [Rakes - Michael Plunkett, Paul Gross, Reg Hall; Boldon Banjos - Tom Ford, Norman Reid, Albert Glenwright, Bob Kane] [Trailer - yellow label] (1974)
Moving day; Twelve stone two; Around the world; Alexander's ragtime band; Durham clockmaker; Delilah; Road and the miles to Dundee; Robert E Lee; California here I come; Wheel the perambulator; Do you want your old lobby washed down?; If you knew Susie; Yes sir, that's my baby; How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm; William Brown; He's only the village postman; I don't work for a living; Dream; Kentucky waltz; Pal of my cradle days.
LER 2089 Peter Bellamy Tell it like it was [Trailer - red label] (1975)
Rambling Robin; All in a day; Parson's peaches; Ballad of Judas; Farewell to the land; Nostradamus; On board a '98; Ward the pirate; Courting too slow; Burning; Bold privateer; Fiddler's hill; Goodbye.
LER 2090 Boys of the Lough Second album   [Boys of the Lough - Aly Bain, Cathal McConnell, Robin Morton, Dave Richardson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1973)
Lerwick lasses reel; Scalloway lasses reel; Underhill reel; Galley watch reel; An Goirtin Eornan (Little stack of barley); Sally Munroe; Patsy Campbell reel; Gravel walk reel; Lough Erne; Gold ring jig; Halting march; Lovely Nancy; Merrily kiss the Quaker's wife slide; Padraic O'Keefe'sslide; Yow cam ta wir door yarmin'; Christmas Day ida mornin'; Lass with the bonny brown hair; Lowrie Tarrell reel; Mason's apron reel.
LER 2091 Nic Jones Noah's ark trap [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Wanton seed; Jackie Tar; Ten thousand miles; Golden glove; Indian lass; Miles Weatherhill; Isle of France; Crockery ware; Annachie Gordon.
LER 2092 Martyn Wyndham-Read Maypoles to mistletoe [with Geoff and Pennie Harris and Arky's Toast] [Trailer - yellow label] (1975)
Wait's carol [All]; Candlemas Eve [MW-R, G&PH]; April song [AT]; Birds in the spring [MW-R]; Jack in the green [G&PH]; Furry Day carol [All]; Whitsun dance [GH]; Moon to the sun [AT]; Oats and beans [MW-R, G&PH]; Arky's toast [AT]; Hare hunting [G&PH]; Jolly fellows who follow the plough [MW-R]; Pescod time [MW-R, G&PH]; Guy Fawkes [AT]; York Waites [G&PH]; Seven joys of Mary [MW-R, G&PH]; Rose of Sharon [All].
LER 2093 Muckram Wakes Muckram Wakes [Muckram Wakes - John Adams, Suzie Adams; Helen Watson, Roger Watson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Muckram Wakes; Duchess of Hamilton's rant; Bitter withy; William Taylor; T'owd brahn 'en; Two sisters; Black boy jig; Farmer's arms; Winster Wakes; Derby ram; Twenty pins; Cromford Mills; Stockinger; Peg of Derby; High Stenson the deserter; Owd Joe Biggin.
LER 2094 Roger Nicholson, Jake Walton, Andrew Cronshaw Times and traditions for dulcimer [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Mistress Winter's jumpe; Dowland's midnight; Mrs Whyte's nothing; Rolling of the stones; Planxty Power; O'Carolan's concerto; Follow the plough; Mr Sharp's fancy; Gypsy's wedding; Haste to the wedding; Almaine; Bogie's bonny Bell; Devil among the tailors; Donal Og; Si Bheag, Si Mor; Song of wandering Aengus; Nonesuch [revisited].
LER 2095 Cyril Tawney Down Among the Barley Straw - seduction songs from the Baring-Gould manuscripts   [Leader - yellow label] (1976)
Down among the barley straw; Young Rambleaway; Ragged beggarman; Squire and the fair maid; Hostess's daughter; A-nutting we will go; Blackbird in the bush; Strawberry fair; Cottage on the hill; Bold dragoon; Bold trooper; Miraculous hen; Barley rakings.
LER 2096 Tommy Dempsey & John Swift Green grow the laurel [Trailer - white test label, handwritten tracks] (1976)
Little beggarman; Walking in the dew; Dumb, dumb, dumb; Recruiting sergeant; Enniskillen Dragoon; Cunla dear; She moved through the fair; Green grow the laurel; Follow me down to Carlow; Blackwaterside; As I roved out; Paddy and the whale; Tri-coloured ribbon; Limerick rake.
LER 2097 Bill Caddick Sunny memories [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Sunny memories; Father's little black box; Military man; P-tarmigan and groaty Dick; Gibson girl; Sitting all alone; Cinderella; Tango Bleriot; Diabolo rag; All the King;s ladies; Writing of Tipperary; It's a long way to Tipperary.
LER 2098 Pete & Chris Coe Out of season out of rhyme [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
King's song; Young Benjie; Gilsland hornpipe; Linhope lope; Farewell to the brine; Bold Reynard waltz; Cunning old traitor; Bishop of Chester's jig; Two sisters; P & O polka; Proud Lady Margaret; When this old hat wasnew; Welcome cold November.
LER 2099 Martin Simpson Golden Vanity [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Beaulampkin; Snowdrop; Bitter withy; Cindy; Golden Vanity; Soldier's joy; Pretty Polly; Love minus zero / no limit; George Campbell; Gotta little home to go to; Louisiana, 1927.
LER 2100 Cilla Fisher & Artie Trazise Balcanquhal (1976)
LER 2101 Tony Rose On banks of green willow [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Twas on one April morning; Bold Archer; Fanny Blair; Polly Vaughan; Murdered servantman; Poor man's sorrows; Banks of green willow; Lord Rendal; Bonny hind; Sir William Gower; Fourteenth of July.
LER 2102 Vin Garbutt King Gooden [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Road to Youghal; Paddy row back; Pretty Meggy Morrissey; Green mossy banks of the Lea; O'Dwyer's hornpipe; Parkin Raine; King Gooden; Bantry girl's lament; Ballad of Cissy Lee; Hermit of Eskdaleside; Unknown reel; Imelda Rowland's reel; Doon reel; We may and might never meet here again.
LER 2103 Dick Gaughan Kist o' gold [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Earl of Errol; Granemore hare; Rigs o' Rye; Gipsy laddies; Lord Randal; Maggie Lauder; Cathaoir an Iarla' Banks of green willow; 51st Highland Division's farewell to Sicily; City of Savannah; Ril gan ainm; Raglan Road; Johnny miner; Balld of accounting.
LER 2104 Andrew Cronshaw Earthed In Cloud Valley [with Martin Simpson, Holly Tannen, Rick Kemp] [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Murdo MacKenzie of Torridon; Eleanor Plunkett; Prince William; Fanny Power; A stor a stor a ghra; Bellringing; Elsie Marley; Go from my window; Green mossy banks of the Lea; Christmas day in the morning; Glen Cottage; Dhu Hill; Midnight on the water; Pandeirada de Entrimo; Somewhere to stay; Cutty wren.
LER 2105 Various artists Fylde Acoustic [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Toye [J James]; Corranto [J James]; For Wendy - a nice buzz [P Berryman]; Mr Hitler, Mr Lanigan, Mr Tobin, sandancers extroidinaire [M Harding]; Ned of the hill [S Bracken]; Green fields of America [M Simpson]; Ninth of January [M Simpson]; Heights of Alma [N Jones, C Coe, P Coe]; Sweeney's polka [M Carthy]; Georgie [C Foster]; Bainish Sineidin [V Garbutt]; Black Jock [A Fisher, L Cowan]; Mr Southcote's pavan [J Renbourn, G Giltrap]; Mr Southcote's galliard [J Renbourn, G Giltrap]; English music [M Chapman].
LER 2106 Jean Redpath There were minstrels [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Dumbarton's drums; Rattlin' roarin' Willie; My love she's but a lassie yet; Robin Shure in hairst; West Virginia mine disaster; Gilderoy; Sheath and knife; Yellow Yorlin; Rob Roy; No, sir; Clerk Colven; Caroline of Edinburgh town; Davie and Jeannie.
107 Not issued
LER 2108 Peter Bond Its all right for some [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Baron and the busker; Africa '65; Category D; Some you win, some you lose; Letter from Sunderland; Birthday cake city; Ne coals off; Lark across the vapour trail; Let it be me on your mind; It's all right for some; Joe Peel; Joker.
109 Not issued
110 Not issued
LED 2111 Walter Pardon Our Side of the Baulk [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Leader - orange label] (1977)
Pretty ploughboy; Up to the rigs; I'll beat the drum again; Down by the dark arches; Grace Darling; Generals all; I'll hang my harp on a willow tree; Wreck of the Ramillies; Jones' Ale; Old miser; Balaclava.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:47 AM

Hello George.
How can you justify Mr Bulmer denying the world of such treasures?
Ralp Jordan


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:50 AM

PLUS Greenwich Village ,Sweet folk all,Dambuster,So I believe.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:54 AM

Woops
I meant Ralph Jordan...sorry!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:26 PM

Mr Early.
Are you asking me to apologise to Mr Bulmer?
What for exactly???


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:36 PM

I think he means in the Trotskyite telegram stylee:

You were right and I was wrong
I should apologise


spoken in the Jewish way.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:47 PM

Mr Early.
Maybe Mr Bulmer should apologise to all the artists listed above.
I cannot understand why he is surprised at the vitriol levelled against him.
Go back and listen again to the original Radio 4 documentary, and hear the anger and hurt in Mike Watersons voice.
Not Nice, and Not Clever IMHO.
Dave Bulmer is just a hoarder, no more, no less.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: oggie
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:56 PM

If there is no money in Folk CDs as DB claims, how come Topic survive?

There is a market for material from the 1970's, quite a healthy one, you just have to work at and the co-operation of the artist does help. Witness the release of Bob Pegg's back catalogue (minus of course "He came from the Mountains)

All the best

Steve Ogden


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:53 PM

Bulmer owes nobody an apology


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:31 PM

I dont see it that way.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: oggie
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:38 PM

My brother was the keyboard player with "Ragged Heroes" who recorded one album with CM for which no payment was received. It's main claim to fame was that Vikki Clayton was the lead singer. 4 years ago mint copies of the album were being sold via a US website at $180 a time. Now, where do you suppose mint copies came from? Why no royalties?

All the best

Steve


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 May 07 - 07:25 PM

Unnamed guest - would you care to say on what grounds a comment like that can be considered valid, bearing in mind the remarks of more than one of the artists involved in this ?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:20 PM

oggie-
a question...was the album ever released? How many copies were sold?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: oggie
Date: 12 May 07 - 02:26 AM

Yes it was released, available through Virgin at one time. As to how many copies were sold, who knows? None of the band ever saw an accounting.

All the best

Steve


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Lynn W
Date: 12 May 07 - 04:19 AM

Devil's Advocate, I have the original Cecelia Costello LP (or rather my husband has!)- PM me if you would like to arrange to hear it.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: stevep
Date: 12 May 07 - 05:54 AM

Heard the Radio 4 documentary on Listen Again - what a sorry mess.

It seems to me that as far as Dave Bulmer is concerned, Bright Phoebus IS available. He still has vinyl copies, and once in a while he has run off some CD-R copies. He doesn't think there is any money to be made from doing anything else about it, and he doesn't feel he owes the artists anything.

But there seem to be plenty of people on here who think otherwise. Topic make money. Free Reed do an excellent job of re-packaging vintage recordings, and (I assume) make money at it.

I don't know Dave Bulmer, but he must have a price for handing over the rights to the recording - somewhere between a fiver and a million. And remember, according to Mike Waterson, DB does not have the master tapes.

So how about some people who really believe in this LP teaming up with a label who know how to promote & distribute, work out what a realistic price might be, and make DB an offer? I can't believe he'll keep saying "No" if money is waved in his face.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 May 07 - 10:00 AM

I think it is regrettable that, so far as I am aware, DB has never responded to the various threads on Mudcat and elsewhere. This is an issue that many people feel strongly about, and no doubt some people have gone over the top in expressing their opinion. But in the absence of a response from DB to explain his point of view, all people can do is speculate. It's not surprising that some of the things that have been said have upset and hurt DB, although it is perhaps surprising that he's surprised, so to speak.

The thing that puzzles me, and clearly many others, is DB's apparent reluctance to exploit the treasure trove he's sitting on, and which he paid good money for. There is clearly a demand for much of the material, in some cases from the musicians themselves.

The biggest cost of an album is the actual recording, and these have all been paid for. Actual production costs are relatively low, and CD's sell for a reasonable price. It seems to me, although admittedly my experience of these things is limited, that it should be commercially worthwhile for at least some of these recordings to be published and distributed on a proper basis.

The question of royalties is a different matter. According to DB, the artists on "Bright Phoebus" aren't entitled to royalties under the terms of the contract (although I got the impression that they were more concerned over the loss of their work than the money). However I suspect that people would be prepared to pay a good price for these CDs in return for an assurance that, whatever the terms of the original contracts, the artists would receive a proper payment - just as people pay more for "Fairtrade" coffee etc.

DB, if you are reading this, please believe that people's frustration with you is "more in sorrow than anger". Many of us believe that there is a solution out there which will benefit everyone, not only , the musicians and the audience but also yourself. All that is needed is a dialogue to open.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 12 May 07 - 10:35 AM

The repeat of the programme is on air now.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 07 - 11:33 AM

I just heard the programme and was completely knocked out by the music, as I always have been by most of the people involved and by bits of BP that I have heard over the years.

But realistically most of us who love this kind of music did not buy it first time round and it probably wouldn't sell a lot now. As exciting as many of us find it - most people don't and I suspect most folkies don't either.

Music either hits you or it doesn't. It is no use trying to convince somebody else why Little Richard, Luke Kelly or The Watersons just do something, the simply do and the general evidence is that BP misses most people.

Perhaps somewhere between Topic and other independant labels something could be done?

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 May 07 - 12:18 PM

Les in Chorlton wrote:

"But realistically most of us who love this kind of music did not buy it first time round and it probably wouldn't sell a lot now."

I disagree, for several reasons:

I didn't buy "Bright Phoebus" first time round - I was a strict traddie (things were more polarised back then). But now I would - my tastes have broadened.

Many of those who did buy it, and other albums on the list, first time round would probably like to replace their knackered vinyl with CDs.

There are a lot of people who weren't around then and never had the chance to buy the originals.

They're never going to go platinum, but I suspect that at least some of the albums would sell well enough to justify the costs of a proper re-release and distribution, including payment for all concerned including the artists and DB. I'm not saying everything would sell - it's a big list - but it includes some real gems. There are some seminal albums in there and there are definitely people out there who want to buy them.

The problem appears to be not that there aren't people willing to release the albums, or people willing to buy them, but that DB doesn't appear to be interested in negotiating a deal.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 07 - 12:47 PM

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm,

I would like to think you are right. Perhaps ohter people who sell their own CDs would have a view on possible sales?

I assume Eliza et al sell a lot but what about the hundreds of people who get festival bookings - what quantity do they sell?

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller
Date: 12 May 07 - 01:40 PM

I heard the programme and I thought I heard someone say the album was still sort-of available. Amazon appears to have a couple of new CD copies though I guess they're copies off the vinyl, not the masters.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Rolyh
Date: 12 May 07 - 01:42 PM


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Rolyh
Date: 12 May 07 - 01:45 PM

"Unto Brigg Fair" would make a wonderful release with the supplied sleeve notes and a bit of marketing. Those recordings are a joy to listen to.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: oggie
Date: 12 May 07 - 02:06 PM

re - Contracts.

George Michael was tied to a one sided contract by his Major Label, it included all the, then, standard ways of reducing his royalty payments. This contract was eventually squashed in the High Court because of it's skewed nature and some other technicalities concerning legal advice etc. In this day and age all the record companies insist on the Artist having independent legal advice. It would be interesting to know if the contracts originally entered by Leader/Trailer/CM artists would stand similar scrutiny. Is suspect we'll never know due to resources and people moving on with their lives.

All the best

Steve Ogden


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 07 - 11:09 PM

That list is enough to make this grown man cry!

I USED to own a vast majority of those records, but had to sell them during financially lean times.

I can assure Mr Bulmer that I, for one, will buy anything he re-releases.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:41 AM

How many more of you would ?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 May 07 - 05:03 AM

So long as I was aware that mechanical royalties were being paid because the production company was MCPS-registered and that all notes and packaging was properly and professionally produced, yes of course I would, regardless of who puts them out.

Once I had nearly all them them on vinyl but sold them to Collets in 1979 because I could find no-one to store them for me when I was leaving to live in Germany. Of all the silly things I've ever done, that tops the list.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:44 AM

Countess - OUCH!!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Dai Jeffries
Date: 14 May 07 - 08:23 AM

Shouldn't you be at work, surreysinger?
I a good copy of Bright Phoebus and a few (very few) of the LPs on Ralph's list. I would buy CD re-issues of a fair number of the others.
Ralph - are you going to reissue the first Crows album? I've only got No Bones Or Grease.

Dai


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 May 07 - 09:39 AM

On a quick check I can find about 46 of the Leader/Trailer Lps on my Vinyl shelves but they're not as organised as I would like, so there may be one or two more.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 May 07 - 09:44 AM

Deep envy Kevin - I have a fair few, but nowhere near that many!

Dai - nope, I retired from the Revenue on ill health grounds about two and a half years ago (hoorah!), so don't need to be out and working today (double hoorah!) Remind me to tell you about it next time I see you - will that be Spiers and Boden on 22nd June, by any chance?? (It's just as well, anyway, as I feel worn out after attending the Keith Summers festival at the King and Queen over the weekend - great time had by all!!)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:09 AM

Deep envy Kevin - I have a fair few, but nowhere near that many!

I guess it helped that I lived about 5 minutes walk from Bill's house at 5 North Villas and would get advance print proofs of the Sleeves from him, which I would take to the Folk Club at The Enterprise, Chalk Farm and take advance orders, so a certain modest discount would apply.

Happy Days!

Were you at The Friday evening K&Q which was the only part of the weekend I could manage? A great evening.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:58 AM

Nope - unfortunately not - I was there for all of Saturday, and for Sunday afternoon - had to chicken out on Sunday evening, as I'd stupidly lost my purse at Waterloo in the morning, and needed to get back there to try and find it (which I did, minus a few nicked pounds, at Station Reception). If Friday evening was as good as Saturday and Sunday - then yes... great times!!! [grins immensely] - sorry to have missed you!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 May 07 - 12:03 PM

Sorry to have missed you to.

I knew you would be at the event but didn't see you Friday (and it's not that big a room) but I have been known to miss seeing people at events we've both attended!

Friday night had the feeling of the best times at the National. It will be hard to follow it next year but I'm sure they will.

This is now hopelessly off-topic so better stop.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 May 07 - 12:33 PM

Yes agreed - the main topic is a GREAT deal more important!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 May 07 - 01:25 PM

How many people bought Peter Bellamy's cassettes etc when he was still with us ? He always made a joke of the fact that the only way he could have stuff to sell at gigs was by illegally bootlegging his own records !


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Dai Jeffries
Date: 14 May 07 - 01:30 PM

I've just listened to the radio programme on the BBC web-site and I have to say that I'm with Ralph Jordan all the way. I've no personal axe to grind but I do believe that these records have to be heard again and in the best possible version - whether from master tapes, acetates or, if necessary, a copy of the vinyl.

And, yes, I have a couple of Peter Bellamy's cassettes but if someone would like to reissue Oak, Ash And Thorn and Merlin's Isle I'll be in the queue.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 May 07 - 01:48 PM

Children please..Take your reminiscences elsewhere LOL!!

Just to shed a bit of light.
Somone (Les I think) asked why labels like Topic etc, couldn't take it this project on.
Well, the simple reason is pure economics.
For all the Glitz and glamour of releases by Topic, Free Reed, etc, etc. the profit margins are very small.
Topics own "In House" studio closed many years ago, and "The Transports" almost did for Free Reed.
But, If...
1 The Master tapes of the Lost Leader collection still exist. (Mmmm)
2 The Original artwork for the sleeves/booklets still exist (Another Big Mmmm)

Then, the actual mastering, printing is just a matter of finance.

But, to get to that point, Dave B must come out of his shell and negotiate. If he chooses not do so, then that is that. Any recordings that may still exist will be lost forever.

Maybe a consortium of respected labels could pool resources to buy Dave out. (I fear that his price would be difficult to meet sadly)

As for distribution, There is little point in flooding HMV/Virgin with discs. The best way to sell CDs is at live gigs (Bit difficult for a lot of the artists I realise)

Mind you, it would be interesting to know how many Sandy Denny boxed sets Neil Wayne has sold? She hasn't gigged much recently, yet NW invested a lot of money in the project (and Peter Bellamy too)

We just carry on I suppose.

Regards to all

Ralphie

PS Oh and Dai, maybe the CROWS first CD will come out eventually!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 May 07 - 01:50 PM

100
Yes I know, I know...!
Enjoy your Time Zone, wherever you are
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 May 07 - 02:37 PM

Black Muddy River


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 May 07 - 03:10 PM

Thanks for that link Ralphie, another highlight from Saturday night.

Best regards,

Dave


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 May 07 - 03:25 PM

Peter Bellamy wasn't joking when he sold his own dubbed merchandise. Far from it. He was acting 'illegally', yes, but this was because he didn't own the rights to some of his own material which people wanted but which Mr Bulmer refused to release or sell back. So Peter created a cottage industry and sold cassettes at gigs.

Some of this, such as extracts from the Trailer LP Tell It Like It Was, Green Linnet stuff and outtakes from Both Sides Then and Fair Annie have appeared on the Free Reed retrospective Wake The Vaulted Echoes. But almost 16 years after his untimely death, some of his work still remains unavailable.

If you ask me (no-one did), we owe it to his memory, and that of Lal Waterson and of Tony Rose (Pete was a guest artist on his Young Hunting) to continue the struggle for simple justice.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:29 PM

Lost Album? £35 to £55 so what this then Bright Phoebus


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralph Jordan
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:44 PM

Mr Tyke.
It's what it says it is.
It's a CD-R of Bright Phoebus being sold from an obscure country, which will benefit the participating artists....NOT ONE JOT!
And your point is??? (Please be precise as to your moral standpoint)
Sleep well.
Ralph Jordan (Full Name, as always)
PS...Wow, 2 copies available, might help towards Mr Bs Milk bill for the next day or so!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:48 PM

Ah, yes Mr Tyke/Clarke.
I think it's already been established very clearly way above that there are places where you can get this item, a CD-R sold at CD prices:

Firstly, at that South American river place, ever so ethical.
Secondly, at a US online site unconcerned with morality
Thirdly, at CM's own site (when it works)
Fourthly, through some grubby little merchant on eBay, and
Fifthly, at certain retailers where a ritual smashing demonstation can be arranged.

But maybe people prefer to trade second-hand among themselves at the prices you quote and keep their hands clean. Or better still, await the product's availability in a guise that benefits the artists, not just your not-so-sainted anti-hero.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:48 PM

Folkie dave.
Twasn't me who put up the Muddy Water link...wouldn't even know how!!
Someone else hijacked me. Ah well. Glad you enjoyed it.
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:56 PM

The £35 -£55 obviously [to some!] refers to pristine vinyl copies, the likes of which Bulmer holds 100's, well according to him.

And the band played 'Believe It If You Like'


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 14 May 07 - 05:53 PM

Precise me tell? the truth or is Dave Bullmer responsible for the earths Magnetic core that make all recorded music with the exception of film sound track deteriorate.

Fancy someone is hijacking your thread. So it's not you that's put up so much drivel made veiled threats. So you did not write
" Hello George.
How can you justify Mr Bulmer denying the world of such treasures?
Ralp Jordan"

Is this an argument about money or the chance of listening to some wonderful music?
So you buy a mint copy of the original recording what are you going to do play it once whilst recording it to CDR on your computer. Or are you going to put it on your turntable and play it till it wears out.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:22 PM

Tyke - your first sentence scarcely seems to be English, and as far as I can see doesn't make any sense ... as to the rest, having read this thread, and contributed once or twice to it, I would hardly say that Ralph (or most of the other contributors who have supported his comments, or other similar ones) is/are talking drivel - nor has he or anybody else at any point that one can see made "veiled threats" - what threats could anyone issue in these circumstances??

As to the final two sentences ... I don't think this is an argument, more statements of people's feelings and thoughts - an argument has to be two sided, and one of the protagonists is conspicuously missing from view. The concernsas far as I can see relate to the non-availability to the general public of a vast and precious catalogue of work, and to the denial of any current benefit to the artists concerned in the production of that work.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:22 PM

Ah yes countess richard or may we call you Dick for short.so you wrote.
"Ah, yes Mr Tyke/Clarke.
I think it's already been established very clearly way above that there are places where you can get this item, a CD-R sold at CD prices:

Firstly, at that South American river place, ever so ethical.
Secondly, at a US online site unconcerned with morality
Thirdly, at CM's own site (when it works)
Fourthly, through some grubby little merchant on eBay, and
Fifthly, at certain retailers where a ritual smashing demonstation can be arranged.

But maybe people prefer to trade second-hand among themselves at the prices you quote and keep their hands clean. Or better still, await the product's availability in a guise that benefits the artists, not just your not-so-sainted anti-hero."

So when you click on the link Bright Pheobus did you not notice the UK Shipping.

"Fifthly, at certain retailers where a ritual smashing demonstation can be arranged.I hope Folkie Dave who is at Shepley Spring Festival this coming weeked dosent have any Artist smashing up his second hand vinal in protest". Mind you they are so delicate just a scrach or two would. Unless of corse he is donating some of his profits to the Artists.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:40 PM

I assume that Countess Richard's "Secondly, at a US online site unconcerned with morality" refers to CAMSCO Music. If you want to snipe, at least have the courtesy of spelling the name right.
    I also assume that the good Countess is willing to explain what's immoral about my retailing CDs that are commercially available. Or is it just easier to take unjustified pot-shots at people who are simply trying to make some fine music available to people who love it.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:49 PM

Mr Polytunnel, I didn't spell the name of your online retail outfit at all. I assumed readers would be aware of it and what it does.
What's 'immoral' about retailing CDs that are commercially available? Normally nothing.
What you are doing, however, is flogging CD-Rs comprising intellectual property for which artists are deprived of benefit.
Though not illegal, this is immoral, unethical and very, very deplorable.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:52 PM

Surrey singer, yes quite right my Dyslexia Rules. My apologies for having this disability I'm so very sorry for upsetting you command of the English language. Yes I'm from a different country, Yorkshire it's in the North one knows.

I have asked about ones price of Eggs but one seems to think that ones Eggs from the south are worth more than ones Eggs in the North. Where Dave Bullmer has defiantly copy written ones chickens so you won't give them a Buck, buck, buck, buck in.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:05 PM

If you actually have got dyslexia, then can't see that you need to apologise for it... other things in your posting which have absolutely NOTHING to do with dyslexic problems probably do require apologies to other people, and not me.

Anybody have the foggiest idea what that second paragraph is supposed to mean?? Although I rather suspect that "one"** may find its not worth a fig anyway... never mind eggs/chickens or whatever
** does he/she really think that everybody south of the Thames talks like that ??? Strangely deluded......


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:11 PM

The price I quoted was for a mint version of the original vinyl - based on two things.

1. The price I last sold a copy for.

2. The current price on GEMM - www.gemm.com

If you want to purchase a CD-R of the original at an inflated price from someone that is your privilege.

I do not include Dick Greenhaus in this since as far as I know he pays artists the royalties due to them and makes strenuous efforts to do so.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Phoebus
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:12 PM

And he accuses RALPH of talking drivel??


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:14 PM

countess richard you wrote,

"So long as I was aware that mechanical royalties were being paid because the production company was MCPS-registered and that all notes and packaging was properly and professionally produced, yes of course I would, regardless of who puts them out.

Once I had nearly all them them on vinyl but sold them to Collets in 1979 because I could find no-one to store them for me when I was leaving to live in Germany. Of all the silly things I've ever done, that tops the list."

Did you keep any copies that you had dubbed on to cassette tapes?

Did you contact all the artistes and pay them additional royalties out of the profits?

I bet you had signed copies didn't you?
Don't answer just come out with more drivel and twaddle!

I bet Dave Bullmer sells an extra record every time you advertise his catalogue.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:19 PM

The words hole and digging come to mind....


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:54 PM

Firstly Dick G...

I fully realise your attempts at trying to recompense artists whenever you can. (I seem to remember someone earlier said that they would be bumping into Mike Waterson soon, so expect a demand for a fistful of dollars...Only Joking!)
You have always dealt courteously and correctly with the UK distributors that I know of.
But, as you must surely appreciate, this whole sorry tale is not really about hard cash.
Feelings are running very high over here in the UK. As the years go by, more of the artists are falling by the wayside, not knowing if their work will ever be heard of again.
If Mr Bulmer had a grand plan for hiding all this material away, Fine!
But, for the life of me why just hoard them??

Conspiracy theorists tell me that it is because the original tapes are in such a sorry state that they are now unplayable. I have no idea if this is true, but, it's certainly possible, and would explain Daves reticence in discussing the whole situation.

George/Tyke
Sigh!
I am not threatening anyone, just asking difficult questions.
And after all these years, still not getting any answers.

Ok OK. lets call a halt to all this.
If indeed the tapes have deteriated, then all is not lost. (after all back in the 70's I stupidly stored some tapes, luckily not vital, in a damp cellar...silly boy!)

I'm sure I could contact the right people with the right technology to restore as many as possible, before it is too late.

Far from losing face, Dave B would be thanked for having kept all this stuff all this time.

I must state that I have no financial interest in any of these shenanigans. But, as someone who always kept safety copies of most of my sessions for the BBC before I left, I am still getting calls from producers who have mislaid (!) their Master tapes.

If Dave has a master plan.   Fine!
If not, the vagaries of time, damp, temperature and the Earths magnetic field, etc will do untold damage to whatever is left.

Surely now is the time to safeguard the remains?
And if any of the recordings are subsequently released, I'm sure deals could be done. The annoying thing is that Dave won't talk to anyone, and hides behind a certain lawyer (No, Not naming him, too dangerous).

While this situation continues, threads like this will continue to pop up from time to time. C'est La Vie.

Ralph Jordan


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 May 07 - 12:14 AM

Oh and Mr Clarke.

All this talk about Home Taping is the reddest of herrings.
The record industry long ago gave up the fight to stop individuals copying LPs onto cassette. As any legislation would be completely unenforceable.

In the modern Digital world, it's even weirder..and lawyers are still scratching their heads about it.
After all, copying to cassette always had some audio degradation, but, nowadays, It's not copying, it's cloning. (Digi-wise)

The Herring bit is that the market we are are talking about is so small, and the profit margins so tiny, that your arguement is specious.

It just really saddens me that an artist of the stature of Peter Bellamy was forced to bootleg his own recordings because a few people wanted them, and he was being denied access to the original LPs.
And that Tony Rose had to re record his favourite songs before his untimely death.
And that various artists had to re record Bright Phoebus a year or so ago, just to allow people to hear the brilliance of Mike and Lals writings.
And that the Jones family had to go down the road of releasing, private recordings just to make ends meet.

Do I need to go on? Haven't even mentioned Pat Cooksey yet!!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is not about money, it's about decency.

Come on Dave, I know you are reading this.

DO THE DEAL

Regards Ralph Jordan.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 May 07 - 05:22 AM

Tyke.
I Quote

"Did you contact all the artistes and pay them additional royalties out of the profits?"

Mmm interesting. Apart from the fact that the phrase "additional royalties" hardly seems to be relevant, as no original royalties have ever been paid by the owner of the catalogue!!!!
An example.
If I bought a fancy mug from a bespoke potter, and subsequently sold it on to a friend, would I have to pass on 10% to the original potter?

Don't think so. Said potter would already have had his money, some of which would be his profit. If his mug, subsequently came up for auction and made £1000, would he be entitled to 10%??
No. But if I were said potter, I'd get potting pronto!!

My last CD is now out of print. (Not enough interest to do another re-pressing)
But if anyone I know that had bought a copy wishes to copy it for a friend then I have no problem, as it is unavailable otherwise.

But, this fictitious friend is not purporting to be a distributor, and does not own the rights to said recording. Just doing a favour for a mate.

A very different scenario to the one being discussed here.
Hope that clears up that point.

Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 May 07 - 06:07 AM

Tykeperson/George

Your latest assertion is spectacular only in its lack of logic. It is doubly specious to raise the question of 'additional royalties' due on payment for items from the Leader/Trailer catalogue which came from Bill Leader's stock several years before your mate Mr Gollum . . . er . . . Bulmer acquired it.

I left my collection of vinyl, books, magazines and memorabilia with Hans Fried at Collets and he paid me a year or so later. It was mine to sell on, though money was not the issue. It was more a case of leaving them in safe hands and making them available for others. And this is precisely what DB is preventing. He's hanging on to stuff that artists want out there and people need to hear. Just because he can. I've no idea why, but can he stop it please?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Dai Jeffries
Date: 15 May 07 - 06:12 AM

This discussion seems to be going in ever-decreasing circles with the majority of contributors holding roughly the same point of view. It's sad but true: you can always tell a Yorkshireman - you just can't tell him very much.
Perhaps someone should invite Dave Bulmer himself to join in?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 May 07 - 06:23 AM

Dai.
Careful now boyo!! (best not offend the good people of Yorkshire)
Seriously, would love Mr B to join in, (with anyone) but my breath is hardly bated.
And, I doubt that he would appear without his faithful legal Rottweiler by his side anyway.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 07 - 07:36 AM

did not one of his faithful legal rottweillers do a spell in prison recently,.
I maybe mistaken but I believe,This same rottweiler was also struck off by the legal society.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:30 AM

Dear Ralph,
I was hoping that you would have realized that this is not the place to demand answers from anyone. I'm not surprised that Dave Bullmer is not contributing it concerns legal issues. Why not talk to Dave about it personally I'm sure then you would have an insight towards his reasons.

You worked or work for the BBC what do you think of the corporations attitude to "Folk" I don't want you to answer that. I don't want you to blot your copybook with the BBC, as it's my belief that you were one of a minority who supported "Folk". The lost Album beeb thing sounds like just the hook, a way to sell the programme, to the BBC who now do little enough for "Folk Music". We do know that it's not lost at all.

Now Folkie Dave has told us where to price up our record collections thanks Dave. Great business move that letting people know in advance how much profit you may make on once you sell their old LP's.

Just in case you missed it click on this link http://www.gemm.com/


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:45 AM

Surreysinger I was being sarcastic I'm not really sorry. I plain and simple you have made no comment about other contributors Typo's, as they seemed to take your point of view.


An argument is to deferent points of view this argument has Dave Bullmer being blamed for everything that wrong with the world.

Oh and I am Dyslexic so keep having a go if you wish but it isn't the answer to the arguments. It's just your way of trying to shut me up with Bully Boy smart RRst tactics. Grow up slurryslinger!

So sorry for any smelling mistakes not.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Tyke - I think I probably HAD got the gist of your tack on this, as your sarcasm is less than thinly veiled. I can't see anything new, or original in any way in what you have to say - no further comment.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 May 07 - 11:57 AM

Now Folkie Dave has told us where to price up our record collections thanks Dave. Great business move that letting people know in advance how much profit you may make on once you sell their old LP's.

Just in case you missed it click on this link http://www.gemm.com/


Tyke - ~I am convinced you are losing it here. I do not operate on GEMM so it does not apply to me. And it is a bit patronising to assume because you were not aware of GEMM that others interested in S/H records weren't either. I only posted it for people to refer to as far as the Bright Phoebus record was concerned.

However for anyone using GEMM to "See how much profit there is in selling their old LP's" as TYKE puts it - here are some guidance notes:

generally speaking the LP's have to be in mint or near mint condition and the covers in very good (or better) condition. If the vinyl has anything other than tiny scratches and not many of those - basically you can forget it, the LP is worthless.

the prices you see on the screen are retail prices and you will be offered between 30% and 40% of those prices when you sell to the dealer.

another way is to sell your old collection via ebay. This has disadvantages which are that you have to post and package the material, you have to make sure the customer pays you, and it takes a modicum of skill and time to write a good advert and take a good picture. The profit margin can be higher but the work you put in is harder.

So there you have it. I never knew you were so interested Tyke.

I wrote similar but far more detailed guide to selling s/h folk books, about a year ago.

But come and see me at Shepley Folk Festival where I have a stall and I can go through everything with you there.

You worked or work for the BBC what do you think of the corporations attitude to "Folk" I don't want you to answer that.

Do us all a favour Tyke. Please don't write any more sentences like that. Speaking for myself I find it confusing, just as I was looking forward to reading Ralph's answer, you change your mind and tell us you don't want to hear it. I am sure - open and honest as he is - Ralph would tell you his opinion.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Do the deal Dave.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:11 PM

smart RRst

Like it.
Who can I try it out on in a text?

As for the BBC's attitude to music generally, it's hard-edged narrow on the outside but ever so woolly in the middle.

This is how it goes: It begins (they think) with 'posh mainstream' classical on R3 but annoys the 'posh mainstream' punters by dumping in 'minority' listening which they think is 'common'. It ends with 'not really cutting edge but they think it is' 6 Music. 'F*lk' music is scattered about between R3 ('minority' as mentioned), R2 (Krusby/Lakeperson/SoH or whoever Smoothops thinks is the latest 'flavour), and R4 (often a useful - if not too accurate- identifier in documentaries and drama).

To struggle quite easily onto topic, the programme Bright Phoebus specifically was a classic example of how R4 uses music with All Around My Hat played at the first mention of Martin Carthy in Steeleye Span, even though he had not a lot to do with it. In other words, the BBC (as a corporate body, not just a few individuals) doesn't understand it, or even like it but they'll use it for the 'follow-through, grab the audience share and keep it', accountancy-based agenda.

This is not, to me, what public service broadcasting should be. Nor is CMD/MBM or whatever Mr Bulmer is calling his empire today the right way to deal with a national cultural treasure. Of course, the BBC won't fire me for saying this as they already have. Mr Bulmer's first reaction may be to rant and snarl at me from his bunker but if he just thinks about it, he'll realise I'm right. How to be instantly popular, all-round good guy (well almost), and EVERYBODY wins: just think, Dave. Do the deal.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:18 PM

Hi everybody peeps.
Fear not my people. (How bombastic is that!!)
All will become clear......
Mr Tyke.
I retired from the BBc last December, and am now able to keep my own opinion re my relationship with the Beeb.
Your point is????
Is my opinion relevant?
Is any of this germaine to the subject in hand?
Discuss.
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:33 PM

"Like it.
Who can I try it out on in a text?"
Well not me for starters, as I've had it used in this place :-)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:43 PM

"Fear not my people. (How bombastic is that!!)"
"Bombastic" = high-sounding, inflated...

So I reckon, pretty much so????

To quote (and I wish I knew exactly what I was quoting, or even indeed, why) "There is nothing to fear except fear itself"

As to whether any of "it" is germaine to the matter in hand, since "germaine" = origin or beginning, I would definitely suspect not!

What have you been drinking Ralphie??? (:-)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:57 PM

Ahem.

You (or somebody) was supposed to agree that my analysis of the BBC's attitude to music was borne out exactly in the programme Bright Phoebus, and was thus germaine as it brought us nicely back on topic.

I shall ask them in the pub how smart RRst and/or bombastic this theory is.

G'day all.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 May 07 - 03:19 PM

Oh For Gawds sake.
Don't you recognise a joke when you see one coming?
Meanwhile, back to the subjeect!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 15 May 07 - 04:11 PM

Honestly talk privately to Dave, Ralph, this is not the place for anyone to get anywhere with Dave Bullmer. Oh and I don't disagree with you once you have sold something that's it. If it goes up or down in value it's your profit or loss. As you said dubbing your LP's making your own compilations everyone has done it was red herring and just my way of telling people that the pot is calling the kettle black. Well everyone's done it, as we all know do we not.

Folkiedave well I did mean it when I said thank you for telling me about that website. I did and do realize that it would be quite easy to inflate prices just by offering LP's at inflated prices whilst selling them for less to the gullible else ware. Things are only worth what people will pay for them and you did point that out a different way true but that's the fact.

My thank you was because I checked the price of one of my LP's The Hermit, Mountain Ash Band. I bought it as it was launched in the Queens Hall, Ilkley. (You have done the sound there for a concert Ralph a long time ago but you have.) The reason I looked was because one of the Artists asked me about ten years ago if I still had my copy. When I said yes she said oh we haven't this dealer came to the door and offered us £20 each for them! Three months went by and I ran into Linda again "Have you still got your copy of The Hermit"? Say's Lynda "he's now offering £40". My reply was the same as it was three months later when The Hermit Album was spotted at a record fair priced at £300. That reply was well I'm still not selling it because it's a reminder of lot's of friends and the good times that we had.

Am I someone that hoards things? I don't think so it's just that some things mean more to people than others or they would not have sold what they now wish they had. Mind you I have got two copies so I could sell that one and buy a record deck so I can play all my other Treasured Albums.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 May 07 - 04:37 PM

George/Tyke
I understand.
I'm not offended by your postings.
Yes, I seem to remember doing a gig in Ilkley.
Lovely town.
Look after yourself.
Kind regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 15 May 07 - 04:55 PM

Now you have retired Ralph I hope you get back to or rather have time to make more of your own music.
Cheers George


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 May 07 - 02:23 AM

Thanks George for being civilised!!
Yes, I am working on new projects, gigging etc.
Your point re the album that has rocketed in value is interesting (Wish I could say the same for my copies of the first CROWS LP!!)

But, that is just our LPs we are talking about, and in which we were involved in the production of.

So my feelings for mine, and yours for yours are very personal. Fair enough.

As I said days ago, I'm in the lucky position to have bought the rights/mastertapes/multitracks of the original recordings, in a very civilised manner from Roger Holt (MD of the now defunct Dingles label).

I cannot be sure, but I think he was making similar offers to the other artists on the label (Bonnie, can you confirm this??)

He could eaily have hung on to them, after all, he had invested lots of money in the original production of said records, but he didn't.

I, and the rest of the original band are now completely free to re-issue that LP in whatever way we like. (It's on my list of things to do!!) If we did, and it became a huge success, selling shedloads (a boy can dream) would I have to give Roger Holt a share in the profits? Legally no, but, morally, I would talk to him, and if the cash were there, I would probably cut him in in some way, as a thank you for paying for the original recording, and for looking after the tapes for all those years.
It would be done over a cup of tea, and everybody would be happy (hopefully!)

You suggest that I talk to Mr B privately, well I haven't tried I admit, mainly because I don't have the funds to purchase such a collection, and also I'm rather wary of locking horns with his legal (struck off) solicitor. I'd lose....No Doubt. Apparently. he's not averse to legal action (allegedly)

I hope that someday in the future, a company, bigger than Topic, Free Reed, Fellside, No Masters, Veteran whoever, Could make him an offer that he would accept.

Over to you Dave, How much do you want??

Name your price, and we will see if we can match it.
Going back to the original point. While you are hanging on to these recordings, people are dying.

An aside here, a year or so ago, Sid Long (Notts Alliance) sadly died. After the funeral, there was a concert for him, which I was asked to do PA for. As usual, I put a DAT M/C on the desk and recorded it. I'm not sure how many copies of the subsequent CD were sold, but, I was very pleased to have done such a thing in Sids memory. All profits went to charity.
The Folk scene is very small, not a lot of money in it, never was, never will be.
If Dave Bulmer wants to keep all this material for himself....Fine

But, it's very sad for everyone else.

Really Kind Regards

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 16 May 07 - 12:30 PM

Well, both the Amazon CDs are gone, and another just sold on eBay for £36, which shows what a bit of publicity can do.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 May 07 - 01:41 PM

Hi Topsie
Better get Radio 4 to do a Doc about me then LOL !!
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:39 AM

one good thing Dave Bulmer did, was to publish,2 0R WAS IT THREEvolumes of Irish tunes.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: nickp
Date: 17 May 07 - 11:37 AM

It was 3 volumes and I still have 2 - not that I play Irish music... and not that I can read music either! Nick


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:43 AM

So if he was to release all [or some of] the items he has hoarded,the folkworld would have a much higher opinion of him,come on Dave.,the Grim Reaper comes for us all,you might die tomorrow, next week or the month after.what use will all these recordings be then.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:41 PM

It's not about releasing the recordings.
It's about who owns the publishing rights.
Think about Paul McCartney-Michael Jackson. (Beatles, Northern Songs)
Who owns the publishing on the Leader Archive??
Discuss.
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:18 PM

Ralphie-
"Who owns the publishing on the Leader Archive??" Seems to me that that's a matter of contract law. And, since nobody seems to know exactly what was on the contracts, and precisely who bought what, this forum doesn't seem a likely place to resolve any issues.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwannapostmyrealnametonight
Date: 18 May 07 - 11:51 PM

for what its worth................

I never heard of this LP until
I chanced upon the Radio 4 program last Sat afternoon,
just as I was getting ready to go out;
therefore, could only listen to the first 5 mins or so..

But I was intregued enough to search for a CD.

It was me that bought one off Amazon earlier this week !!!

It was delivered today.


So for the sake of accurate fact & info..

The CD I purchased is NOT a CDR.

It is [99.9999etc% as far as I can be certain] a factory pressed CD


Just thought this objective info should be stated here
for whatever any of you mates what to make of it.


LEADER RECORDS 1972/2000

LESCD2076

C.M. Distribution,.. etc


[CM Distribution address & phone no etc, printed on CD artwork,
but I guesss it probably best not to reprint it here..
also the CD seller contact info easily found at Amazon,
so I'm also refraining from including that here]

Not had time to listen to it yet,
but sampling the first few bars of each track;
the sound quality seems as adequately "HiFi" enough
as many other obscure 60's & 70's 'collectors' reissues.

It cost approx 15 quid..
about 3 times more than I prefere to normally pay for CD's
off ebay or in High St sales,
but as it is obviously such a limited release,
I thought I'd treat myself to what for me
is a previously unknown folk rock milestone recording.


I can't be drawn into the 'moral' issues regarding this CD
as I was completely unaware of any rancour surrounding it
until I first read this thread a couple days ago
[after I ordered it off Amazon].
Since then I've researched/googled;
and am now more fully aware of this tragic hopeless saga.

Tuesday I tried to listen to this program on BBC.com play-again,
but was surprised and annoyed to find it had already been replaced
by the Robin Gibb episode "Sing Slowly Sisters"
[btw.. took less than 20 mins to google mp3 download of that entire 'lost' album !!!???]


So, at risk of rockin the boat even further..

did anyone record the "Bright Phoebus" program..

..and any chance of an mp3 of it being uploaded to rapidshare or somewhere..

I suggest the present circumstances would justify it being kept available in the public domain for a short while longer
for any of us who missed it
and are eager to learn more of this despairing 'profit versus folk culture' mess


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 May 07 - 01:15 AM

Dick Hi!

Mmmm Publishing rights....Nest of Worms, Can of Vipers!!
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
It's not about ownership of the physical product (ie, Tapes/Vinyl/Stuff)
It's all about the ownership of the publishing. Hence my mention of the Jackson/McCartney stuff. Whoever has those particular rights, has, very much the upper hand. I think it would be the dream of every artist (particularly in the Folk world, where money is at a premium!!) to actually own their own publishing rights. (Thus becoming masters of their own destinies).
Hence, the reason why I keep this subject alive. And will continue to do so!.

Which brings me on to GUEST with the very long name above!!

Glad that your little dip into Radio 4 catching the BP prog, prompted to you buying the CD. Glad you did, because it (Bright Phoebus) is really rather good.
I'm sure that everyone would be happy that you went out of your way to track it down. Enjoy. Nobody is going to take out a contract on you!!!

It's just a shame that all this legal shenanigans has deprived more people from accessing a lot of wonderful music. (See extensive list a couple of pages back).

Memo to Pat Cooksey, if he sees this. How is your case re "The Sick Note" going???

On a point of tecchie stuff, the "Listen Again" server at the Beeb isn't that huge, so, obviously, various progs have to be dumped from time to time to make way for more. Lifes a bummer, but Hey, the service didn't even exist until a few years ago!!

As regards the BP prog, a friend of mine kindly recorded it (Yes Yes, highly illegal I know!)
for me last week, but sadly onto cassette..........!

My last cassette m/c died late last year!
Ho Hum.

As usual, Regards to all
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Useless Friend
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:07 AM

Had it not been for loud whinges about plummeting bitrates I'd just have captured the replayer audio stream of Lost Albums and burned a CD. Seem to remember being asked for tape cos it would sound better . . .

Gone to find a lead to connect tape player to CPU and may be some time.

Yours blunderingly

MD Illegal Inefficient Audio Transfer Operations


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Jos
Date: 19 May 07 - 07:55 AM

To the Guest with the very long name - I bought the other CD on Amazon. It seemed to be the only practical way to get to hear the rest of the album. However, there are some faults on it and I am wondering if they are just on my copy, or maybe they are scratches on the vinyl it was copied from. If you PM me when you have listened to it I won't tell everyone who you are, honest. Or you could just post a report on the thread.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:08 AM

RALPHIE it is about releasing the recordings,and at the same time who owns the publishing rights,I know I am only a minor player in this [2 LPS and one set of master tapes ],but as far as I am concerned if my cds were released [most of the material was traditional,a few self penned songs]and I had 50 per cent of all Radio and publishing royalties,Iwould be happy.
The only company that has ever given me my due royalties has been Brewhouse.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwannapostmyrealnametonight
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:04 AM

hi Jos.. what tracks are the faults on..?

I've still not found time to get headphones on for a proper listening session..

and probably wont until the mrs lets me have an hour of peace and quiet on my own..

but I'll run through tne problem tracks asap if you tell me which ones..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwannapostmyrealnametonight
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:07 AM

though considering the circumstances..

I've payed a lot more for much worse sound quality bootlegs
back when I had a decent salaried job
and weekends enjoying scouring Camden market CD stalls


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ciderhead
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:34 AM

oh no not again !

Why is my favourite West Country knock out juice
constantly blighted by association with such disreputable surnames ?

Thatchers and Bulmers !

bugger !!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:44 AM

Hi Ciderhead.
Very unfortunate name of beverage on two counts!!
Maybe a rethink is required??
As for Jos and Mr "Long name!!"
Have not heard the CD version of BP, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear analogue surface noise on it, as I have a strange feeling that they were produced from the original vinyl. Not the master tapes.
(This makes me fear for the state of the original Masters, no matter who owns them)
Will continue to follow this with interest.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Jos
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:16 AM

Hi, Guest,don't...tonight. It's track 7: Magical Man, about a minute in - I thought at first it might be a deliberate jump to suggest a magic trick as it is followed by a gasp, but there are also jumps on track 10: Shady Lady, at just under two minutes in, and on track 12: Bright Phoebus, at a bit less than two and a half minutes. It's as if it jumps out of the groove and lands back in at roughly the same place.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:27 AM

hi jos, ok..

will check it out asap I get home tonight.

Btw.. if the 'Bulmer' collection of master tapes has been lost due to negligent archiving..

then it is the duty of any responsible future legitimate CD release project
to compile master CDs from the best quality tracks
from as many 'mint' vinyl LPs as available..

but sadly, even sealed 'mint' unplayed LPs can suffer from pressing faults
and deterioration if not stored in apropriate archive conditions..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: BB
Date: 19 May 07 - 02:40 PM

Ciderhead, thank you for a little light relief from the horrors of the Bulmer situation.

You said, "Why is my favourite West Country knock out juice
constantly blighted by association with such disreputable surnames ?
Thatchers and Bulmers!"

Well, if you want quality, forget the Bulmers! Actually, that brings it neatly back on topic again :-)

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:01 PM

While Thatchers Cider might be made in Somerset, Bulmers emanates from Hereford.
Though Magners seem to have some concession for manufacturing it in Ireland.
Whatever. Last time I went to the Fleadh in Finsbury Park (sponsors, yeah right, Magners) I was asked if I had any cans on me.
As it happens, I'd called at the supermarket on the way to pick up cat food. 'Oh, yes', I said, 'several cans of Whiskas'.
'Get in there, you stupid old cat-loving bat', they said (roughly), not thinking to check for the multiple cans of English beer I had in my rucksack.
Bulmer may be to blame for many things, but not for crap cider.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc
Date: 19 May 07 - 11:41 PM

hi Jos..

just listened to the entire CD
wide awake, stone cold sober, good studio-monitor quality headphones..

wasn't able to plug into my best CD player,
thats in the bedroom, its gone 4.30 am, and the wifes asleep..

so my PC cdrom and software media player had to do

..and I could'nt hear any skips or jumps.....

The overall sound is definitely nothing like 'audiophile' quality..
its a bit crunchy and distorted.. but not too distracting..

certainly does'nt sound anything like a transfer from well recorded first generation master tape..

but very good bootleg sound quality best describes it..

Don't know right now if it will sound better or worse on my
proper HiFi system..

Anyway, if you want to confirm if your Disc is the same release as mine,

[and I'm quite certain mine is a factory manufactured disc rather than CD-R copy]

this is the ID coding around the inner ring on the playing surface
as best as I can make out without a magnifying glass.....

Sony DADC IFPI L554
A0100436694-0101 24


Btw I prefer the darker 'folky' tracks

the singalong pop stuff at best reminds me of The Idle Race
and at worst vears a bit too near to Brian and Michael
"Matchstalk Men and Matchstalk Cats and Dogs"..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:29 AM

I'm not qualified to discuss most of this (or anything, really!) but presumably if the band members retained the copyright in the songs/i> they could continue to perform them and even record a different version. They may not want to because they consider the essential element the contribution of Lal.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:29 AM

Oh grief! Bulmer again. The guy who has done more to hinder the progress of folk music than any other! To Richard Bridge - I think the lawyer of whom you refer is NIGEL ANGEL who is a London solicitor dealing mainly in music biz matters.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:50 AM

Firstly Roger the Skiff (Silly name BTW)
I might be wrong but I don't think Mike and Lal ever gigged Phoebus as a show.
Presumably because it would have been nigh on impossible to get all the musos in one place at one time.
Would have been a "Must Go" gig, if it had happened.
Obviously, it would be silly to even try now, without Lal.
Second GUEST Donnwanna...etc!!
Interesting info re the Bulmer release, but, I thought it was only me that listened to music at 0430!!
Sad isn't it!
Andy IOM....
Wondered where you had gone.
You do realise that there is another Andy living in Peel nowadays. (Work it out!) Might even plan a trip to your fair island soon. fancy a pint??
Best Wishes to all.
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:24 AM

The family sang a couple of the songs from Bright Phoebus at the RAH, the title track and 'Fine Horseman'. Although I'd not heard Lal sing live since the late '60's I could have sworn it was her singing when Lal's daughter, Marry, sang the solo part to 'Horseman'


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Jos
Date: 20 May 07 - 06:26 AM

Thanks, Don't...etc..., mine has all the same numbers on it, so I now know that a decent copy is possible (I knew it wouldn't be first generation master tape quality). I'll get back to the supplier and ask for a replacement.
Thanks again.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:53 AM

"I thought it was only me that listened to music at 0430!!"
No Ralphie - there are a fair few of us that do that. Anyone wanna join "Insomniacs 'R Us" ?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:26 AM

Ralphie,
When the 'other' Andy isn't music-ing the world he can usually be found in 'The White House', Peel where mine host Neil Keig keeps an excellent selection of beers and whiskies. There's trad music in their on Saturday nights so if you do come, bring your 'tina with you.
Regards,
bigJ


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:36 AM

Hi BigJ??

Bumped into the other Andy only last week, who kindly invited me to visit. On my "things to do" list.

And of course, "Tina" would be coming too!!

(Completely off topic, but hey!)

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:00 AM

The Watersons never gigged "Bright Phoebus" that is for certain and for the reasons Ralphie mentioned.

Some of the songs written by Mike and Lal from that era - were indeed sung at the RAH concert, and Blue Murder do a couple too...And on the other occasion they appeared as "Waterson Family" - Sidmouth - they did some there.

As for Maria sounding like her mum - it is true and she sounds more and more like her. No-one for me could ever replace the sound of Lal - but my goodness she does come damned close.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:14 AM

Not Bright Ph - poss thread shift - but very related to much of the above.

A Tale of Two CDs – What the Dickens!

I walked into my favourite Leeds record store, Jumbo Records, last Saturday.
I browsed through the folk section and a shock-horror moment occurred (for me, at least).
I came across two Nic Jones CDs I wasn't expecting to see.
There, amongst copies of 'Penguin Eggs' and 'Game Set & Match,' were two of the 'famous' first four of his catalogue - namely 'Ballads & Songs' and 'Nic Jones'.
The covers had a LARGE logo on the front proclaiming 'Leader' records – similar on the back – very prominent.
Only in the teeny-tiniest of print, on the back, down at the foot of the tray-card was the proclamation 'CM' and an address for said company.

I am very 'aware' of the 'debate' about these re-released recordings and the ethical and moral points constantly raised in public forums and on the folk scene generally.
I have my own point of view on the subject too – mostly formulated from extended conversations with artists effected by the situation (Nic himself, Bob Fox etc)

I took the two album cases to the counter and politely enquired of an assistant if I might be able to have a word with the manager.
He asked if it wasn't something he could deal with and I replied 'No, I'd like to speak to the manager about these two Nic Jones CDs'
He disappeared 'out the back' and reappeared shortly after saying the manager would be with me in a moment.
When the manager eventually came out front, he had a face like thunder before we even spoke!
I can only assume he'd perhaps had someone speak to him re this 'debate' before.
I politely enquired if he was aware of the furore and on-going debate re these and other albums?
That if he wasn't aware – I'd return in the week with a written précis and web addresses where he could get 'up to speed'.
However….
He replied 'Yes' – and 'it's about time someone sorted THIS out!'
He sounded quite agitated!
I then pointed out I had been shopping at Jumbo for years and years - from when it first opened way down on the ground floor of Merrion House (heck – how many, many years back was that? Twenty? ….More?)
I calmly stated that I would not be buying anything further from their store whilst such stock was on their shelves…
At which point he snatched up the two cases from me and threw them – nay, PELTED them, across the shop…..
BANG! Clatter into the wall and floor!
– Simultaneously bellowing 'Well we won't HAVE them then!' and STORMED off away from me without a by-your-leave.
He was practically purple with rage and I was somewhat stunned by his explosion, by his complete fit of pique!
I collected my wits – I was, in fact quite frightened by his outburst - then passed him on my way out saying 'Thank you for your time'.

I can only guess he's had his cage rattled on the subject before – for I can't believe my calm, measured few sentences warranted such an over-the-top reaction.

The customer isn't always right, but perhaps I could have been 'heard' and politely shown the door if not agreed with?

I went over to Borders – bought a lovely CD from their folk section.
Found no 'controversial' stock on display there.
Calm counter staff too!
Probably shop there from now on.

Cheers – HipflaskAndy (that's Duncan McFarlane, George!)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:27 AM

Doesn't Dave Bulmer work at Jumbo on a Saturday?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:40 AM

OOhhh.....lets all go visit Saturdays!!

And well done Duncan, just like margarine the word is spreading.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:21 PM

'Doesn't Dave Bulmer work at Jumbo on a Saturday? '

No idea 'Buspassed'.
If he does - he wasn't there to my knowledge - or, at least, didn't make himself known.
Perhaps he might have reasoned with me?
The manager sure didn't!
Bless - D


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:21 PM

Flippant irony not best understood here then!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:36 PM

The Jumbo website lists everyone who works there.
Those who work legitimately and are registered for tax and NI that is.
Is it flippantly ironic' not to be?
I thought it was just clever and/or illegal.
Dunc, did this manager resemble John Cleese?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:57 PM

Certainly by his behaviour.....

Come on Dunc, I think we should be told!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:12 PM

Or did he resemble Dave Bulmer more to the flippantly ironic point!

Come on 4B buck up!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:38 PM

So Hipflask Andy Jumbo sells your CD's (Duncan McFarlane Band) they pay you out right for them they are not on sale or return then? In doing so they pay you your royalties up front then yes? No I don't think so most if not all of the stock is on sale or return.

What a great gesture from the manager throwing unpaid for stock about or perhaps it was just the empty jewel case.

Having a go at me is pointless the fact's are here Bill Leaders Contract was the one signed. With Bill Leader not with Dave Bullmer!

Now I know that the Duncan Mc Farlane Band only play big gigs like the Abbey Inn. But at least you are out their and although the fee's maybe small especially for the size of your band. You have the opportunity to get your own material noticed and then played on the media that's where the money is. Perhaps some super star like Christy Moore will turn one of your songs into a hit. You write some brilliant songs Duncan it could happen.

So there is just no way you would sign away your rights it would not make any sense at all would it?

However if you were putting up the money to produce someone else's Album you might want to make sure that you were able to at least get you money back. How would you encourage them to get out there and do gigs and sell there own Albums? How would you stop them from going off and making a New Album with someone else using some of the best tracks from the old Album?

So come on Hipflask Andy it's your choice should you stop doing the thing you love or do you become a record producer. You have plenty of friends in Otley who are recording there own albums every other floor singer last time I was there. How many of them are their that are willing to give up their well paid day jobs to go out gigging every night to sell there Albums. Oh and what the professionals do is to go round a week before to not just publicize the tour but to get there music played on the local Radio Stations.

Oh and when you get to the gig make sure you take as long as possible to do your sound check. If you can over run into the start time so the no one else gets a sound check. Then your band as the headliner can cut the supports bands time short and make them sound crap into the bargain. Whilst you can cash into all those lovely royalties just make sure you don't do any traditional music. Hey there is no money in that is there?

Oh and the Merion Centre was opened in the 1960's it has a Cinema that has been closed for more than 30 years. Oh and I distributed Tykes News for no financial reward for well over 20 years. My thing is the love of the music not the petty ridiculous whinge about money and contracts. I'm pretty sure that if one of your songs went platinum the money would not be your biggest reward.

Hope all this crap is keeping the Bright Phoebus sales up Dave.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:44 PM

I speak of the DMcF band on the one occasion I have been there when they sound-checked.

They were polite and rapid. I cannot praise them high enough for that.

But this thread is not about any of these things. Let's get back to the subject in hand.

Do the deal Dave.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:05 PM

Fer chrissake, Mr 'Tyke' Clarke, Duncan does what he does and, fortunately, retains his rights.
He went into Jumbo and found the work of his friend, Nic Jones, displayed for sale in the format of your mate Mr Bulmer's CD-Rs.
He queried this, in the sure knowledge that Nic was receiving nothing from any such sales.
Interesting response from da management.
If the DMcF band goes platinum, jolly good thing and well-deserved.
Venue management and soundcheck overrun cockup problems are not the band's fault. Get real.
And what's this crap about the Merrion Centre?
Needs nuking in common with all other architecture of the era.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:20 PM

RRst


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST, bystander
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:24 PM

Royalties - DB is within his rights to pay none where none is due, but he won't win any friends. A better ploy would be to sell the rights back to the artists and find another living where he won't be a pariah. (He's a top box player and plenty would give him work if he shaped up).

Access - it might seem an improvement if some of this massive catalogue is at last becoming available, but there is just SO much in the vault that a one-man organisation without major backing can't hope to do justice to the archive - or even preserve it properly. A better ploy would be to sell the masters (or what's left of them) back to the artists, donate the rest to someone with the necessary resources, and find another living where he won't be a pariah.

Quality - given that many of the master tapes are probably in poor repair (beyond repair?) it's logical to use vinyl for mastering. There's even something quite warm about that if it's done really really well. But putting out cheaply produced CDRs (which many shops, radio stations and customers will simply not touch) is not acceptable. It's an insult to the material. Charging the same as for a properly mastered CD is just a scandal. (You do know the difference between a CD and a CDR, don't you Dave?). A better ploy would be to sell the rights and the masters (or what's left of them) back to the artists, and find another living where you won't be a pariah.

Dave you've collected too much stuff. Too much. I know this was meant to be your pension but it's suffocating you. Life can offer other good things.

Do the deal.

(Why don't we say this to you in person? Because you've made us all afraid of you. How can that be a good thing for a salesman?)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:53 PM

Jeez George
How'd you work out I was 'having a go' at you?

You have totally misinterpreted my meaning.

Up above there earlier you were making a point about
folks hiding their identity behind 'Guest' and 'pen-names' - didn't you?
Just to be clear on who HipflaskAndy was (to all other readers)
I tried to reinforce YOUR point. That's not 'having a go'.

I fail to understand the points you are making in your most recent rant.
Is it at me? My band?
Why?
I expressed no ill-will in your direction on here in the slightest
Please re-read my post - thanks.
I hope you will then realise the mistake you have made.
I hope my explanation is clear and not open to further misunderstanding.

George, I am also fully aware of your contribution to the local Folk music press.

I'll have a re-read of your points and reply later - mebbe.
Meantime, I feel somewhat stunned. - HFA - Duncan!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:28 PM

Blimey.
I go away for five minutes and world war three breaks out!!!
Duncan.
I'm sure your soundchecks are interminable!
Mine are!
Interesting to hear your story about the NJ CDs, and the store managers reaction. Maybe you are right in assuming that this is not the first time that this has happened. May it happen again.
As for Tyke....(why don't you use real name George?)
What exactly are you getting out of this support for Mr Bulmer????
I wouldn't think that it would be money....
After all, nobody else is getting a penny.
(Including Mr B himself)
Sorry, Old Bean, not going away, never did, never will. Until justice is served. (Dogs, Bones, Discuss)
DO THE DEAL DAVE
Regards
Ralph Jordan (Real name and proud of it)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,bystander
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:51 PM

There's a good reason why I can't use my real name - it might put others in a difficult position.

George goes back with Dave a long way, so I respect his loyalty. I can see why he feels Dave's been unfairly vilified, because this bad feeling has as much to do with others as Dave. But the ball does lie at Dave's feet. It did then and it does now, so I'll urge him again to think laterally.

You may feel you're a misunderstood champion of lost music Dave, but the facts are clearly as expressed above and you do need to change tack.

George, as I say, I respect your defence of Dave, and I'm not immune to spelling and grammatical errors myself. But please read though what you write before posting, because we often haven't got a clue what you're trying to say. Yes there's a good bacon sarnie shop up in the Merrion Centre too, but it's not the same since they moved Scheerers and the musical aeroplane. What has that got to do with the price of fish?

And I really have no idea what your beef is with Duncan. We've all overrrun the occasional sound-check - often because the engineers are still getting their own act together. They're totally professional lads and if this has ever happened there will be a good reason. (Been on both sides of that coin many times).

George you say you stand for a love of music over money or contracts. But without money and contracts you'd have very little music to enjoy - because 90% of it would never have been created, and there'd have been precious few people around with enough skill to get it to your ears.

You've been around some pros in your time, so you know what they go through and what they deserve.

My advice - cut out the rhetorical questions and the metaphors and say with you think.

Then we can take your views on board. Who knows, you might even change our minds.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:55 PM

See? I meant, of course, 'say WHAT you think'


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:59 PM

Hi Bystander.
Nice post. Obviously a performer, If I read you correctly.
Nothing much to add at this point, but I thank you for your considered thoughts.
For many years, I've felt that I was fighting a lone battle.
Maybe now we can see an end to this sad and sorry tale.
Only needs Mr Bulmer to come up with a deal, and jobs done.
Thank You
Ralph Jordan


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST, bystander
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:05 AM

Performer? Moi? If only!

Actually, in the interests of a proper debate I'd like to go through George's post again, as maybe we've misundertsood him even worse than usual!

Are you saying, George, that Dave has every right to earn money on his investment? I think you are, in which case I'd say yes absolutely.

Are you saying that not all artists have the gumption or wherewithall to make and sell their own albums, so the world needs people who specialise in this field? If so, again yes.

Are you saying that it's reasonable for a record company to recoup its costs and make a fair profit too - before starting to pay out to the artists? If so, maybe, but it's not good business in the long term. In all endeavors you need something called goodwill and that's something Dave's not been great at.

Are you saying that it's not Dave's fault that some of the original contracts were iffy? If so, of course - but they were written and signed in a different era, and involved different personalities. So the outcomes would have been very different to the way they look on paper now. Again, a good crerative businessman understands the human aspects of commerce and that you need everyone on you side if you're going to make any proper money. Dave's position may be legally sound, but even if we ignore any moral or ethical issues, it's not good business. He needs to work WITH the artists concerned to get these recordings promoted, so he can make money - and to do that he has to make it worth their while. It's just common sense really.

Is your comment about sound checks just a general swipe at professional folk musicians, and not perhaps aimed specifically at Duncan (as we all assumed)? If so, yes, a handful of pros do behave apallingly, but as i say, usually if someone's overrun a check it's because 1) They were not allocated enough time by some damnfool organiser (this is commonplace, unfortunately), 2) the crew were not ready or not efficient 3) there's been a technical problem somewhere. If so, it has nothing to do with this discussion. It was a mistake to make it and you do owe Duncan an apology for seeming to attack him.

You're wrong about royalties on traditional music, by the way. If you register an arrangement of a public-ownership work, you'll get exactly as much for your performance of it as for your own compositions.

I happen to think Dave gets some unfair press too, but he's brought it all on himself. He didn't make a huge success of his own record company (and there have always been grey areas). Buying up all those other businesses was also bad business when he didn't have what it took to exploit them properly. By hanging on and digging in and doing all of the above he's made it much worse. And meddling with PRS and MU matters is merely making him more enemies among people who might have helped out.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:09 AM

Be good to meet up with you Ralph for that pint and will do so if I am on the island - I work most of my time in the Gulf (oil biz) but do get back every other month for a few days.

From what I have heard from a very close firend who has had observed Bulmer for many years, the chances of Bulmer doing a "decent" deal are remote in the extreme! He can't do it. Governed by greed and with a hoarders mentality the game is to fan the flames and watch the mayhem. You could say he is a a really lovely human being!

I think that what is guaranteed is that Bulmer doesn't give a stuff what people think about him and laughs himself all the way to his bank (with bag carried by Sharpley).


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:32 AM

Hi again Mr Stander (or can I call you By!)
Firstly lets lay the Red Herring re Soundchecks to rest, once and for all.
As a performer, and 30 years Sound Engineering professionally, I can only agree with you.
Most bands that I know, like to dispense with the Check, as quickly and painlessly as possible, after all they are there to do the gig, not the soundcheck. As always, the law of sod, often applies. Broken gear, travel delays, lost backlines, or if anyone remembers Glastonbury, Horizontal rain, and punters showering the stage with mud!
Bands also realise that keeping the crew on side is essential, after all they are the final arbitor as to how the band sounds, and they want their meal break too. Cross them at your peril!

As for the rest, I heartily concur. If as George states, This discussion is boosting sales of Bright Phoebus, I still can't see Mr B buying a yacht on the profits just yet. After all, he may have sold a few here and there as a result of the Radio Programme, but, he's got a long way to go to get up to Dark Side of the Moon proportions. Can't really see the point myself.

So this can't be about cash, it must be about control. Lest we lose sight of the original point, It's not about money, it's about morality.
Whist Dave hangs onto the publishing rights (and not benefiting from them) The artists are out there dying. No, they probably wouldn't make much for themselves from re-issuing old product, but, it's worth a go isn't it?

Ah Well, looks like this one is going to run and run

Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,dontwanna..etc..etc.etc
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:37 AM

hi Ralphie..


I've been searching some links at 'Sound on Sound'
regarding master tape deterioration and preservation.

Articles I remember from the last few years..

also info re: recording contracts..


Maybe you and other mates here might find it interesting
if you have not already read it.

Though I think it maybe reasonable to branch off and start a new more
technical oriented thread.

see you there..


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:51 AM

ok.. dontwanna..etc..etc..etc.. and ciderhead


were me..

well, seeing as theres been an outbreak of identity outing here..

i might as well relax and join in the fun.....


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:02 AM

Hi PFR.
Mmm tried to open said thread, the darn thing refuses..
Just crashes me out of Mudcat, curious!
R


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:10 AM

hi Ralphie..

hmmm.. it works for me..


there are 6 active links included in that thread.

dunno much about about web coding technicalities..
maybe somethings conflicting with your net browser ????

anyway.. heres a copy & paste of the links in none clicky format..



TAPE DECAY:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/may96/salvagearchives.html


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr06/articles/rogernichols_0406.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/mar94/tapecare.html

CONTRACTS:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep00/articles/music.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/articles/contracts.htm


have fun reading.. or at least try not to despair too much...


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:23 AM

ps.. just noticed the April 2007 article is is not complete
because its still too new and they want readers to buy it..

.. but it will be fully available for free eventually
[can't remember how many months..?]


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Rallphie
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for that, I'm not my normal PC.
But will do some digging soon.
What I will say, that having worked with tape for over 3 decades, it's generally quite forgiving stuff.
Obviously store all reels tail out, to avoid print-through,
Climate and humidity are evry important. I once in my naievety, stored some early tapes in a cellar, not too cold, not too hot. Shame about the water leak!!! All ruined, luckily nothing important.
Another good tip, is avoid magnets like the plague, and if you still have a machine to play them on, play them at normal speed in both directions (time consuming I know), but, if you think about it, tape is only iron filings glued to plastic, and the glue deteriorates over time. Fast spooling them could have severe effects.

It is possible to bake them (GENTLY!!) but it's a very long process.

One thing not to do is to place a treasured master reel under an office table leg, to make the table level, and then leave it there for years.

I couldn't possibly comment.

Thanks for the links, will follow them, next time I've got some paint to watch drying LOL!!!

Regards as always

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Tyke, say hes not concerned about the petty whinging about contractsand money
Tyke is not one of the artists affected by it.
Nic Jones was seriously injured in a car crash,his professional career was ended,he probably needs all the royalties /money he can get,Tyke you have a colossal cheek.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Deeply Despondent
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:10 PM

Why don't we all just arrange a suitable time and place to meet outside Bulmer's gaff, as we know where he lives, and insist on playing tapes of the Third Ear Band until he accedes to our demands?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 May 07 - 03:32 PM

HI Ralphie the reason I use my Mudcat name Tyke is because that is the Name I use on the Mudcat. If you became a Mudcat Member you can then choose a Mudcat name. You would log in with your own cookie so people could not highjack your name.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Who Knows who
Date: 23 May 07 - 03:34 PM

If you want to make threats log on or tell us your name. 200


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Tony Blur
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:24 PM

So why, in God's name, when you first logged on, did you give yourself a stupid alias?

There's nothing wrong with your real name. Your Mum and Dad chose it, poudly and lovingly, and you've lived happily (more or less - we all have a few moments) with it ever since. In fact you're quite proud of it now, and why not? That named person has acheived much to be proud of. And everyone in your life who you care about - people you see and touch - knows who you are.

In fact your name has now become an integral part of your personality. It's part of your soul. It's the label that proves your transaction with society.

And that's true of all of us.

Then suddenly along came The Internet and immediately everyone starts calling himself by a ridiculous moniker. As if he's joined a cult, or a terrorist organisation, and has had to be baptised into a new faith.

WHY?

Just look at you.

Half the time you find you suddenly need to tell everyone who you really are - so you sign your posts with your real name (and get very high and mighty about it too).

The other half you're deleting your cookie so you can log in as GUEST The Man Who Came To Dinner so even the regulars won't recognise you.

How silly.

And all the time Max and Joe are comparing the computer IDs and chortling away thinking what fun it would be to blow the whistle and reveal all.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

I'll never use my real name on this forum, or join it, until EVERYONE uses the name written on their driving licences.

Paul Gaugin


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,wifi wizard
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:15 PM

I'm parked out side your house now using your internet connection. I've downloaded loads of stuff from your hard drive on to my laptop just to prove how shi* your pasword is. Just think how much spam I can send all your contacts.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:00 PM

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep00/articles/music.htm


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie (The Real One)
Date: 24 May 07 - 01:01 AM

Well, Tyke (George) until you had the nerve to do it, in all my years here, nobody else has ever tried to use my name. What does that tell you?
Anybody who has read my posts on this and numerous other subjects (mainly to do with Concertinas) know all there is to know about me,
I would ask you to stop being chidish and to post under your real name, (Oh, and I would also be interested to know your real connection with the person named in the subject of this thread,) Thank you.
As GUEST "Tony" said above. are you ashamed of your own name?
Now lets get back on topic.
GUEST DD
Not sure about "Third Ear Band", Hows about "Extreme Noise Terror", or "Melt Banana" !!!
Or the "Ride of the Valkyries"
Only Joking

Ralph Jordan.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: nickp
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:03 AM

Ah the Third Ear Band.... that takes me back a bit.

All right, it takes me back a lot to the days when I had hair and was skinny as a rake. Thinner on top and fatter round the middle now. I still have a copy somewhere though!

Nick (attempting a little levity)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:22 AM

nickp...
Nice attempt at levity, God knows this subject could do with some occasionally!
As for the ageing process, well, I'm still as thin as a rake, and all my own hair, though it's gone a bizarre colour!

Never really got the Third Ear Band, more of an Egg/Hatfields/Nat Health/Hopper/Soft Machine/Matching Mole/ Wyatt bloke meself.
Whatever floats your boat I suppose
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: nickp
Date: 24 May 07 - 07:18 AM

Hi Ralphie - and keep up the good work with the relevant part of this thread!

3EB was never really my boat but the silver cover lp did have a certain nostalgic part in the listening background of my mispent youth - although I must own that I may not have been taking a great deal of notice at the time!

*Grin*
Nick


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:20 AM

Ralphie, I am amazed you are so thin - 'cos as far as I can see you do like a beer occasionally. Or even an occasional beer.

How do you do it?

Come on Dave, do the deal.......


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:36 PM

Hi Ralphie
Another good reason for logging on apart from the obvious not telling people that Ralphie is away on holiday invitation to burgle your house. That is why you use should nick name. Back to the logging on thing, I sent you a personal message days ago telling you all sorts of things. I don't think you received it did you I think that is because like your email you have to login.

Do the decent thing Ralphie join the Mudcat and Login :-). I have been cryptic but it must have noticed that it is the Guests (not you Ralphie) who are the ones who open them selves up for a libel suite. The last thing you need is someone doing what I was able to do and use your name.

I was talking to one Mudcater who held a theory that Max as a Physiologist was using the Mudcat as a social experiment. I don't know if that is true or not however when you log in you can access everything that anyone has every written about anything.
Cheers George
Who is staying at home this Bank Holiday to look after his six guard dogs.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:05 PM

Good grief, Max wants to dissect our living organisms?
How is he going to do that and why?
Is this before or after burgling our houses?
You can log in to read the archive and then log out and post as a Guest.
This is actually a really good idea and saves you getting lengthy PMs from nutters.
(Not that anyone I've had one from one of those recently has been one of those . . . but you never know).
It's good to be a Guest. Think I'll revert as it will put a stop to the tedious process of having to explain my Child #68 name.

Diane Easby


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:33 PM

You mean you're not a proper countess/ Shock horror relief! :-) Diane I may or may not agree with you about some things. But people should be aware and keep themselves safe and that includes your self.

I have no idea if the Mudcaters whose idea that this is all just a social experiment was or is correct or not. I certainly don't want people running around looking for weapons of mass destruction. (If I apply for and entry Visa to the land of the free and it's refused it will probably be that last sentence that did it.) He may have just been paranoid still it is worth pointing out that all contributions including PM's are archived.
George


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:25 AM

So I said to Dave Bulmer.......


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:30 AM

Buspassed, I'm really not sure what you're trying to achieve there... if it's humour,I'm afraid that I really don't get the joke.As Ralphie said earlier, "God knows this subject could do with some (levity) occasionally" ... but I reckon that ain't it. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:39 AM

So tell him to stop his wi-fi weirdo activities (or whatever else he's doing with his laptop) parked outside my house. Then I'll go out for a meaningful conversation.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:45 AM

Sorry, temporarily forgot my recent social demotion.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,it aint me babe
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:17 AM

In the last 48 hours,
this thread has gone a bit off subject
self indulgent personalized shite.

innit !


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:41 AM

As far as I am aware, I know just three people who are posting to this thread. One of these I know for sure has a not readily decipherable dual identity. Oh, and the subject. Though he's not posting. Or is he?

So, not very personalised. How would someone apparently of transatlantic extraction (as the spelling of 'personalized' would indicate) know anyway?

Other than that, your assessment is reasonably accurate, though it's hardly off-topic. People are getting threatened with housebreaking and wi-fi fraud. Not nice.

Oops, I see I'm logged in again, but no matter, everyone knows who I am.
Who are you?

Diane


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:30 PM

There you go again Diane miss quoting people. If you log on and use a secure password to enable your cookie then no one can put words into your mouth. All I have asked is that you realize that everyone should keep himself or herself safe.

Now just in case Mudcaters are in some doubt about my statement that Diane
(Countess Richard) miss quotes people all you have to do is to look back on her interpretation of what people have said.

Countess Richards's chosen Mudcat name is taken from a Child #68 and in that Ballard she stabs here true love to death with a penknife. Then she wants to kill the messenger a little bird that has pointed out her mistake and told her the truth.

I am beginning to wonder if her hatred of Dave Bulmer could be to do with his rejection of her amorous advance towards him. I must ring Dave and ask him if this is the case. She certainly doing her best to miss quote and inflame people into all sorts of ill-advised actions.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:43 PM

Well, while you're on the phone to Dave...oh, never mind....


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:44 PM

Good grief.

Actually, it wasn't the countess who stabbed Earl Richard (that's Love Henry to all you Murkans) but his lover.

Story went like this: bloke comes round and 'turls at the pin' (rings doorbell).
Bit on side says: 'You coming in? Fire's on, candles are lit'.
He thinks for a moment and says: 'Nah. I'm going home to the wife.
She stabs him and puts him down well/into River Clyde.

One of the longest versions is on Tony Rose's Young Hunting (LER 2013 1970).
I'm sure you don't need three guesses to get why you can't hear it.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:46 PM

I went to Surrey some years ago, not a sense of humour in sight, little has changed.

So for the hard of laughing let me explain my comment. The previous eight postings were so HUS they were approaching the more anatomically specific HUA! Not to mention being nowhere near the BP/W/B topic so I thought......

If anyone finds a will to live out there it'll be mine!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralph Jordan
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:54 PM

Tyke.
Let us return to the subject in hand, if we may.
(Too many Red Herrings going on here.)
Firstly you say that you attempted to PM me with details (??) whatever that means, but, obviously as a non-member I didn't receive it/them. I'm wondering what it could possibly be that you don't want other people to read?
I have tried to stick to the facts as I know them and Mea Culpa if the anger and frustration boils over occasionally. I'm only human after all, and I normally try and apologise for any outbursts, but, I've been involved with this sorry saga since Nics crash in 1981. and was goood friends with Tony Rose, and knew Lal Waterson reasonably well.
I'm also only too well aware that Daves legal friend is very hot on what is and isn't said in public fora. So I'm very careful what Isay.

Secondly, if you do talk to Mr B, could he re-assure us that all the master tapes are in a playable condition?

If for any reason they are not, then that is regrettable, but not a hopeless situation.
Having read the articles re tape reclamation in Sound On Sound it is remarkable what can be done nowadays, and there would be no shame attached if the tapes have been damaged or shed their oxide over the years (It's happened to some very big companies after all).

When was the last time he examined them? And please beg him not to fast spool them, any failure in the binding glue that holds the oxide to the backing could irreparably ruin them.

If indeed they are unsalvageable, then we can all just pack up and go home. No recriminations.

It's just not knowing that is so frustrating.

If indeed they are all fine, then we carry on the fight.

Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:16 PM

Tyke you are a PRICKINE.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:21 PM

Right, cookie gone. For ever.

I apologise to Ralph for straying a little off the main subject but I think some words from one of those folkloric talking birds that always tell it like it is might be useful.

One of them was watching as I sat in Bill Leader's kitchen while many of these recordings were made. Probably it said to me: 'Copy those tapes and get them out of here 'three hours before the day' but it was the 1970s and I wasn't listening. Maybe it could foresee what would come to pass many years on. Who knows?

Still, just as that bird speaking up about just where Earl Richard's body was hidden and so brought his false love to justice, so it might fly over Harrogate and let us know what's hidden there and whether it can be salvaged. Maybe it could have a word with that wicked pussy cat Bulmer and tell him to stop scaring Poor Polly and pretending to be Gollum and just tell us HOW MUCH?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:36 PM

Hi Ralph,
I said it once I'll say it again speak personally to Dave Bullmer. This is not the place to discus what is when all said and done a Business matter.

I have no idea why you do not wish to become a member, a Mudcater, however a Guest you should make yourself acquainted with the Mudcat and what is all about. Some so called members should also do the same best place to start is HERE!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:41 PM

on the contrary, tyke, this is the correct place to speak about this matter.
It is important for everyone in the folk world to know what has been going on.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:13 PM

Wrong Captain Birdseye it is not the place to speak about Buisness.
Click on the Blue Clicky thing and check out the facts. Let's face the fact Dave has spoken publicly on the BBC about Bright Phoebus this is what this thread is about. Other people as well as Dave and including Martian Carthy have been mis quoated. The Musicians Union have been mis quoated. On this thread threats have been made as well as personal insults.

As Ralph, if indeed it is Ralph, has no wish to become a member of Mudcat he cannot recive personal messages.

Oh and would you like to explain to me and everyone who is reading this thread what a PRICKINE is.

Oh and Countess Richard has ask me to say that there is no truth in the rumor about her and Dave Bullmer.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:28 PM

If only Countess Richard had bought the original tapes and the Contracts and paperwork from her friend Bill Leader. She now say's you knows all about them. So why didn't you buy Bill Leaders catalogue when you had the chance Diane?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:39 PM

Bill Leader's company became insolvent and the assets were wound up and sold on by the liquidator in the usual way, initially to Highway.
This occurred well after Leader/Trailer had relocated to Halifax, and I to Germany.
Consequently the company was never offered to me.
Who knows this? Well most people, though clearly not you, George.
Many things in life would have been different, with the benefit of hindsight.
Bill Leader was actually quite cheered (at the time) when your lord and master eventually acquired whatever he did acquire because he considered it preferable to it going to US academics who'd just lock it in a cupboard. Ha!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:40 PM

That was me.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:44 PM

Hi George/Tyke.
You suggest that I talk directly to Dave??
Novel suggestion, I have to say. I don't think I could afford the legal costs.
Presumably a Mr Sharpley would be present at such a meeting??
Every word would be minuted, I presume?

Knowing my knowledge of legalese, I would probably be stitched up like a kipper within seconds!!

Nobody (as far as I'm aware) has ever succeeded in any case against Celtic Music (Pat Cooksey, where are you?)

For the record, I never was a Leader/Trailer/Transatlntic/Highway recording artist, and therefore am not seeking any compensation for myself.

As his friend I'm just asking you to pose a simple question.

Are the Master tapes that he owns in a playable condition?
If No, then there will be a lot of sad people out there.
If Yes, then we won't be going away.

It's all so simple.
Yes or No?

It's not as if telling us they're safe changes anything, but it would negate a lot of peoples suspicions that they have been destroyed or damaged somehow.

Looking forward to a reply soon

Ralph The Real One


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 03:20 PM

So you sold all your records and moved to Germany you were never offered the chance of buying Bill Leaders Company. The liquidator wound up the companies assets in the usual way. Then eventually Dave Bullmer bought the assets he must possess some foresight that you lack in hindsight.

In fact as you have stated you sold all your records I quote your post Diane (Countess Richard)

"Once I had nearly all them them on vinyl but sold them to Collets in 1979 because I could find no-one to store them for me when I was leaving to live in Germany. Of all the silly things I've ever done, that tops the list."

I think you should be thanking Dave Bullmer for keeping the collection together it would seem to me that you would have sold them to Collets as soon as you needed some space. Collets may well then have sold off the collection in bits and pieces making it very difficult for anyone to trace them.

Captain Birdseye I quote your post
"Dave Bulmer.
he is suppressing The New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet,second recording, that he acquired from Richard Digance[we trusted Richard Digance],and he passed on our recordings to Bulmer.[without consulting us]
He also owns the mastertape to Cheating the Tide,byDick Miles,and refused to sell me the mastertape.
Bulmrer is a complete bollox.Ihope he rots in hell."
Dave Bulmer don't seem to be suppressing anything, in your statement, he is just refusing to sell you the master tape. I'm sure if you put up the monies for the albums in question to be reproduced. Dave will do it.
What is the minimum run for a CD pressing these day's? If you can sell them put your money where your mouth is. Come on do the deal.

Ralph talk to Dave Bulmer if you are open and honest then what have you got to worry about. You know not to sign any contracts without having your own solicitor don't you.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 May 07 - 03:42 PM

Had I had the foresight and business acumen to have bought the master tapes I would like to think I would have saved the Master Tapes, made sure there were excellent copies and with the advent of CD's made and sold some from the master tapes. Many could be money makers. There is a market for the Sheffield Carols record for example, never mind the Bright Phoebus one.

I would then have passed on any royalties from those sales to the artists.

Is that what Dave has done and if not - since you appear to be so close to him George - why not?

Seems good business to me all round. Instead of which Dave has a load of pissed off people who think his name stinks. And he is a business man?

Dave


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 25 May 07 - 03:54 PM

If Mr Bulmer has kept the collection together and in good condition AND makes it possible for them to be reissued, a lot of people and not just me would thank him.

You claim he had 'foresight' in acquiring them in the first place. This implies and intention to reissue, or sell on at a profit. Fine. Let him do it.

I lack nothing in 'hindsight' as I can see very well now what would have been better all round for everyone, including him. No-one imagined, at the time, that such a treasure trove of collected work would ever become unavailable for so long. Those of us who no longer have the vinyl never dreamed that they wouldn't be able to replace it later in another format. Artists wouldn't be dying off with their work hidden from the world.

As it is, nothing is occurring. Just what kind of 'foresight' does Mr Bulmer have?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 04:53 PM

What format do you think would be the best to preserve all these valuable recordings on Diane?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobo
Date: 25 May 07 - 05:27 PM

Sounds to me that ciderman is a bit of a prick!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 25 May 07 - 05:30 PM

If the original master tapes have been stored in proper conditions and remain playable and transferable, that format will have been absolutely fine.

Have they?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:25 PM

Film sound track seems to be the only recorded sound that is not affected by the Earths Magnetic Field.

So you have the equipment to play these master tapes on then Diane? I doubt if many others have so what format do you think these master tapes should be transferred too? Before they are played and played on your tape player and destroyed.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:45 PM

Tyke.
I have no intention of talking face to face with Mr B.
You've had the question 3 times now...
I still await the answer (Though I think I can guess what it will be.)

If the tapes still exist, then there are numerous formats to which they can be transferred, All digital obviously, and probably in multiple ways. Hard Drives/DVD archives, etc, the list goes on.

And proper humidity/temperature controlled conditions for the original analogue masters is an imperative. Costly, but Hey, are these recordings important to Dave, or just a potential "cash cow".
(Pretty skinny looking cow if you ask me)

Agreeing with Folkiedave, This is exactly what I did with the first Crows LP. Struck a deal with Dingles records, and, will eventually re release it.
But, at least I (and the rest of the band) am master of that LPs fates destiny.

The poor sods on the Leader label aren't so lucky.

Tyke

The more you prevaricate about obtaining the answer to my very simple question re the condition of the masters, the more I (and others) are becoming sure that some, if not all, have deteriated beyond recovery.

Ask Mr Bulmer the question, and put us out of our misery.

Any diversionary tactics will be ignored.

Safe or Not?
Yes or No?

Ralph

PS. What's all this guff about me signing a contract with Dave Bulmer?? What for?? He doesn't own any of my property.

Even if he did, I wouldn't even lift a pen without an army of lawyers.

Oh, and wasn't Mr Sharpley struck off a few years ago? Maybe it's just my imagination. Sure I read it somewhere.

And What news of Mr Cooksey and "The Sick Note"??


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:54 PM

Folkiedave the fact is that you don't have the master tapes you did not have the foresight to buy them 20 years ago.

Now as a leading light in the record industry Folkiedave can you tell us if CD's sales are falling due to downloading and if the cost of Downloading onto whatever player you have chosen is falling.

Then using your conclusions tell us how much of your hard earned money you would be willing to invest today in re-releasing all these Albums.

To get back to the subject of the Thread the BBC programme about Bright Phoebus didn't I hear Mike Waterson say that he had a copy of the master tape.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:57 PM

Blimey Tyke.
Think you need to do a bit of research into Physics.

Firstly, If you are talking about Analogue audio stripes on a 35 mm or 70mm film, the principle is exactly the same as normal analogue tape.
But, the bit about the effect of the earths magnetic field????? Excuse me!!!

Mmmmm....How many millenia would we have to wait for that to happen!!! The Earths magnetic field is so weak that its relevance to this discussion is completely immaterial.
After all, if your theory is true, how come all those films made in the 30s and 40s are still listenable to??

No, It's putting tape in close proximity of a powerful magnet (Loudspeaker etc) that will damage them. (Or leaving them in a damp and hot environment)

WANT THAT ANSWER GEORGE.
ASK THE QUESTION
R


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 25 May 07 - 08:52 PM

Ralphie
If you won't talk to Dave Bulmer and ask him questions then you will not get the answers. I am not s spokesman for Dave Bulmer personally and I think you are being a bit condescending to the Artists who signed recording contracts with Bill Leader. These are intelligent people that you are referring too; they made the decision to sign the contracts with Bill Leader. Those assets were sold according to Diane by the liquidators to pay off Bill Leaders Companies debts.

I have been asking the question so tell use is there someone here who is willing to put up there own monies to re release all the Bill Leader catalogue today. Come on Ralphie Do the Deal.

Re the earth's magnetic field becoming weak is this going to stop me falling out of bed Ralphie?

I think you will find Ralphie that the BBC is using the principles of bar coding to preserve programmes that have been recorded on Videotape and you will find that some film projectors as used in the cinema use light to read the sound track. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-on-film


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 07 - 10:28 PM

ok.. i logged in for a change

just to ask again..

if theres any chance anyone recorded the Radio 4 program
'Bright Phoebus'

please could you upload an mp3 of it to somewhere like rapidshare
and PM me a working download link..

i only heard a few minutes at the start of that program..

..enough to interest me in an LP i'd never heard of before,

and so to search for and buy a 'Bright Phoebus' CD..

but i did not have time to listen to the full broadcast..

If i had, i might have realised in advance of purchasing it
that any currently available commercial CD release
is subject of bitter dispute
and sold to an unsuspecting buying public
in 'amateurish' inferior sound quality..

So after reading all this thread..

I really want to listen to the entire radio program
to gain extra valuable perspective
from the artists and music business characters involved in this classic LPs
creation and long term suppression..


please.. i'd really apreciate a chance to listen to this radio 4 program...


thanks.....


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:31 AM

Hi there PFR.

A friend kindly sent me a cassette of the prog.
Sadly I don't have a cassette m/c in working order, having moved on to other formats many years ago!!

I would be happy to lend it to you to listen to (and possibly transfer it to a CD for me, if you can??) MP3 would be fine as I think it is not the best of quality, but it's what is being said that is more important to this issue.

As an outsider, I would value your unbiased opinion of the prog.

So, I suggest that to facilitate this plan, without revealing your address publicly, why not ask a mate to receive a Jiffy bag!!

IE

Mr Rocker
c/o.........

Hope this helps

Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:56 AM

Tyke
Wall, Head, Hitting, Brick Re-Arrange.

Several artists have been trying for countless years to buy back their material, but have got nowhere.
Dave B doesn't do deals.
You ask me to put up my money...Hah!
I'm on a pension. Nuff said.

For the entire Leader catalogue (listed above) I think Dave would expect to be paid a figure with several noughts before giving in!!

But, as he hasn't spoken to anyone nobody really has a clue what his price would be.
Meanwhile he's not making anything either. What a ridiculous situation.

As for the other bits, Yes Optical soundtracks on film are the norm, but I'm sure that a stripe "tape-like" audio track was used at sometime as well.
Not really into film soundtracks. Prepared to be corrected.

The line that creased me up was (ands I quote)
"Re the Earths magnetic field becoming weak, will this stop me falling out of bed"...????

Who said it was getting weak?
It is weak anyway, yes strong enough to divert solar wind from frying us all, and creating the two Auroras at opposite ends of the planet, but nowhere near strong enough to affect the information stored on tape, If it was, all those Radio shows recorded in the 50's would be unplayable now, and they are not unplayable. Hence the success of BBC 7.

The reason you fall out of bed is due to a force called Gravity. Hope that has cleared that one up.

If you want a blow by blow account of how and why the BBC set up the Radio Archiving project a few years ago, then I will tell you the history, but it's seriously off topic in this thread.
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:26 AM

Tyke,Dave Bulmers answer to me was no.Should he change his mind I am easily contactable,I have a website.
A Prickine,well i,ll leave that to your imagination,everyone in West Cork knows what it is.
I suspect that a lot of the master tapes have deteriorated beyond salvation.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:32 AM

Any old pikey should be able to bring those tapes back to life!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 26 May 07 - 06:00 AM

Captain, you said "I suspect that a lot of the master tapes have deteriorated beyond salvation." As an interested bystander in all of this, who would love to buy and hear many of the "missing" items if ever released on CD , I rather fear you may be right ...it would be a good reason to be non-communicative. I wonder whether the rallying call should be amended to "Come Clean Dave" .... although, having said that, if any of the tapes at all are still in salvable condition there would obviously still be a deal to be done. I shall continue to live in hope.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 26 May 07 - 07:32 AM

Sorry Tyke, Mike Waterson didn't say he had the masters for PB. When asked if he knew what had happened to them he said his lips were sealed. Bulmer then unconvincingly said "Yes we had the master for that." He also went on to say he released the CD [without explaining the release was on CDR not CD]


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:27 AM

Ralphie
Wall, Head, Hitting, Brick Re-Arrange
Yes I do feel as if I'm hitting my head against a brick wall you won't speak to Dave Bulmer you won't log on to receive any personal messages. You won't come out and admit that you are wrong about magnetic tape and the earth's magnetic field.

Now you tell us that you are a poor pensioner and that you haven't got the money to buy the Leader catalogue fro Dave Bulmer. You have appointed yourself as a spokes person for every artist under a Leader catalogue. But you won't talk to Dave Bullmer! Twenty-Five Years ago, which is according to you when Dave bought the catalogue the world, was a different place we had a mining industry and three television channels. We did not have the National Lottery Funding the Arts. You could approach them Ralphie mind you how far you would get when you explain that you won't speak to Dave Bulmer.

You won't speak to Dave Bulmer because you are frightened of Sharply hasn't he been struck off. You understand that Dave has done nothing illegal you just want to shout do the deal Dave.

Ralphie you are worried about the storage conditions of the master tapes. Why not go up to Harrogate and have a look a Dave Bullmer's premises. If Dave Bullmer is sitting on tapes that are worth, according to you, a small fortune do you really think that he would not store them correctly?

As for the NOT lost Album Bright Phoebus have a listen again to the programme Mike Watersons did claim to have a copy of the master tape by saying my lips are sealed. Dave Bullmer did speak about the Album on the programme. The Watersons we have been told re recorded some of the tracks and they have been released on another Label.

Oh and whilst you pontificate about not speaking to Dave Bulmer now or in the past you should be aware that there is a possibility that some the laws on Copy Right are about to change. Perhaps you do know that hence the demands for Dave to do the deal now. You seem to want Dave to dip into his pension fund and reduce its value.

Trust is a two-way street Ralphie talk to Dave Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:28 AM

That last post was me i lost my cookie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:29 AM

Buss passed.
Yes ok Mike didn't say in words that he had a copy of the master tape
However the way he said my lips are sealed inferred that he did. What a lovely man Mike Waterson is but I don't think I'll buy a Horse of him. Far too good a wheeler-dealer for me to tackle I think.

As for CD's verses CDR's it could be the cost of the glass master or what ever they call it used pressing. I have been asking what the minimum pressing is for a CD in today's market. CD's verses CDR I am told that the technology has come on leaps and bounds. Then again I am old enough remember watching tomorrows world when CD's came out and being told that they were indestructible so far as scratches and finger marks were concerned. I play CDR's in the car, which I do have to replace as they like CD's are affected by the heat and the cold and being dropped.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:49 AM

Captain Birdseye come, come tell me what is a Pricknine is I tried to look up your website. But all I found was fish fingers and frozen peas.

However if you are Dick Miles then all people have to do is to look on your website realize that you are in your own small way also have a record distribution business.
On that site they can listen to your music and voice and decide for themselves if the re-releasing of your Albums is commercial viable proposition for anyone.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 07 - 11:11 AM

sixth sense

tyke = Bulmer?

Bulmer = tyke?

Or do you all know that already but aren't letting on?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 26 May 07 - 11:19 AM

SHINING BRIGHT (VARIOUS ARTISTS) TSCD519

Cut and pasted from the Topic site as it's so crap you can't bookmark and link to individual pages

        
John Pashley's Phoenix New Orleans Parade Band Bright Phoebus
John Brunton tenor saxophone, Eugene Farrar trombone, Philip Kampen sousaphone, Howard Maude bass drum, John Pashley trumpet, Dave Stanley snare drum

        
Linda & Teddy Thompson Evona Darling
Linda Thompson vocals, Teddy Thompson vocals and acoustic guitar, Van Dyke Parks
        
Dick Gaughan Scarecrow   
Dick Gaughan vocals and guitar

        
Martin Carthy Never The Same
Martin Carthy vocal, The Wrecking Crew: Sophie Sirota viola, Howard Gott violin, Jackie Norrie violin, Sarah Willson 'cello, Andy Waterworth double bass. Arranged and conducted by Robert Kirby

        
Norma Waterson Song For Thirza
Norma Waterson vocals, Eliza Carthy violin, Martin Carthy guitar, Ben Ivitsky violin

        
Christy Moore Piper's Path
Christy Moore vocals, Donal Lunny bouzouki, Declan Sinnott guitars

        
The Eliza Carthy Band Child Among The Weeds
Eliza Carthy vocals and fiddles, Lucy Adams backing vocals, Martin Green piano accordion and piano, Barnaby Stradling bass guitar and piano, Sam Thomas drums

        
Helen Watson & Heather Greenbank Shine
Helen Watson vocals and guitar, Heather Greenbank electric guitar and backing vocals
The Wrecking Crew: Sophie Sirota viola, Howard Gott violin, Jackie Norrie violin, Sarah Willson 'cello, Andy Waterworth double bass, string arrangement by Robert Kirby

        
Billy Bragg & the Blokes Danny Rose
Billy Bragg vocals and guitar, Ben Mandelson Vietnamese lap steel and Fender bajo sexto, Lu Edmonds electric guitars, Ian McLagan Hammond B3 organ, Martyn Barker drums and percussion, Simon Edwards bass guitar

        
Maddy Prior Winifer Odd
Maddy Prior vocals, Rosie Kemp vocals, Rick Kemp everything else

        
Christine Collister & Oliver Knight Marvellous Companion
        
Jody Stecher & Kate Brislin One Of Those Days
Kate Brislin vocals, Jody Stecher vocals and guitar


Dayteller Fine Horseman   
Jim Boyes vocals and electric guitar, Barry Coope keyboards, Steve Page percussion, Sam Smith oud, Gary Warmington stick bass

Richard Thompson Red Wine Promises
Richard Thompson vocals and guitar


Blue Murder Bright Phoebus
Jim Boyes, Eliza Carthy, Martin Carthy, Barry Coope, Lester Simpson, Mike Waterson and Norma Waterson vocals, Martin Carthy acoustic guitar

produced by David Suff for Deep Sea




Not a 'Watersons re-recording' of Bright Phoebus but a completely new production using different artists.

.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 26 May 07 - 11:56 AM

There is no truth in the rumore about Diane Easby and Dave Bullmer!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 26 May 07 - 12:42 PM

Ciderman, ciderman
Hid the tapes in the back of a van


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:07 PM

Tyke=Bulmer
Bulmer=Tyke.

Nope......


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:35 PM

Its very difficult to respond sensibly to Tyke's rather primitive evaluation of the Earth's Magnetic Field. The fact is that , as Ralphie says, it is too weak. Don't worry about it. The strength of the Earth's magnetic field is far too weak ...about 0.5 Gauss...to do much. A typical magnet capable of serious damage to magnetic disks or tapes requires several hundred Gauss at very close range.

The problem here is that the "economy" driven Bulmer might store the tapes in close proximity to another kind of damaging source - the loudspeaker, for instance. I doubt if he has even the basic disciplines required to create a proper tape store - ie one that is substantially free of fluctuations of light, heat, cold and humidity, not to mention odd bits of old iron that we are led to believe he collects routinely.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:43 PM

Of course the the Earth's gravity is weak.

Otherwise you would never be able to pick up.....well a full pint for example!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:30 PM

Tyke.

You are doing well today.
Cut and paste coming up.

1 "You won't come out and admit that you are wrong about magnetic tape and the earth's magnetic field."

Ok, name one single reel of tape that has ever been damaged by The Earth's Mag Field, and back it up with a little bit of real science.

2. "Now you tell us that you are a poor pensioner and that you haven't got the money to buy the Leader catalogue fro Dave Bulmer."

How patronising. "Poor pensioner" indeed! True I've left work at the BBC, but my pension is not due for another 12 years. (thats 65 minus 12 which makes my age to be 53. Oh and yes, I don't have the money.


3. "You have appointed yourself as a spokes person for every artist under a Leader catalogue."

No, I haven't. as is well known to regular readers here, my allegiance is predominately to Nic Jones and his family.
I was asked to produce the Unearthed Double CD a few years ago, and that was when I discovered the rest of this mess.

But to get back on topic (No not the label)
With the R4 prog re Bright Phoebus, it just seemed a good time to alert casual readers as to what is missing. And maybe to warn potential newcomers that all is not what it it seems in the record business.

4. "But you won't talk to Dave Bullmer!"

First true thing you've said, and, I won't, for all the reasons stated many times before.

5 "Twenty-Five Years ago, which is according to you when Dave bought the catalogue the world, was a different place we had a mining industry and three television channels.

What has that got to with anything? (Herring alert)

6 "We did not have the National Lottery Funding the Arts. You could approach them Ralphie mind you how far you would get when you explain that you won't speak to Dave Bulmer."

I very much doubt that any Arts Council or Lottery organisation would touch Celtic Music knowing their (alleged) track record.

7 "You won't speak to Dave Bulmer because you are frightened of Sharply hasn't he been struck off."

No, I won't. Others more powerful than me have tried and failed. Quite honestly, I just couldn't afford the court cases.

8 "You understand that Dave has done nothing illegal you just want to shout do the deal Dave."

Name one time that I have ever said that Dave did not have legal rights to the whole of the Leader catalogue? Not in dispute, never was, never will be. But, I don't think asking Dave to do a deal on humanitarian grounds is that far out of order.
Mea Culpa If occasionally I might get angry. But, people are losing much needed income because of all this mess.

9 "Ralphie you are worried about the storage conditions of the master tapes. Why not go up to Harrogate and have a look a Dave Bullmer's premises. If Dave Bullmer is sitting on tapes that are worth, according to you, a small fortune do you really think that he would not store them correctly?"

Don't need to. Just a signed / dated / legally binding document stating that the tapes were safe (on some particular date) would do nicely. (One that would hold up in court, and could be verified by an independent expert in the field of tape reclamation).
As for fortunes, well maybe 10 or so titles might sell reasonably well, but I can't see them qeueing round the block for Cecilia Costello or Billy Pigg!!

10 "As for the NOT lost Album Bright Phoebus have a listen again to the programme Mike Watersons did claim to have a copy of the master tape by saying my lips are sealed. Dave Bullmer did speak about the Album on the programme. The Watersons we have been told re recorded some of the tracks and they have been released on another Label."

This has already been answered accurately by Diane. Why the re-record??
Because even Topic records couldn't get an answer out of Dave Bulmer with regards to the original recordings of BP.

11 "Oh and whilst you pontificate about not speaking to Dave Bulmer now or in the past you should be aware that there is a possibility that some the laws on Copy Right are about to change. Perhaps you do know that hence the demands for Dave to do the deal now. You seem to want Dave to dip into his pension fund and reduce its value."

Actually I didn't, but it would explain a lot. Mind you If he hangs on much longer, there won't be many people left who remember any of it!

12 "Trust is a two-way street Ralphie talk to Dave Bulmer."

Trust? Trust? Trust????

Good Grief

Ralph Jordan (Note the no " Kind Regards")


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:31 AM

Morning Tyke.
Very quiet today.
Cat got your tongue?
Actually, this is a thank you to Andy IOM.
Gauss...YES!! That was the word I was searching for!!
Well that is one Red Herring that's gone into the pot!

Onwards and Upwards.
Just feeling sorry for all festival goers this weekend. Rain sheeting down here in London Town.

Have managed to revive my Record player, and am listening to the LP of BP.
IMHO, well ahead of it's time, very strange imagery, What a sad loss to the world.

Have a nice day Y'all

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:15 AM

Rain is also sleeting down here in Guildford 3 hours later, and the skies are looking unrelenting grey. Deep envy here at your ability to listen to your copy of BP, Ralphie - mine is sitting around without the wherewithal to play it on .....thinks - must go and buy one of those "retro" combination machines that seem to play every type of medium including vinyl, and which they keep advertising in those brochures that come with the Radio Times and similar .... sigh!

BTW - I'm enjoying the physics lessons so far - this thread is also educational! [grin]


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:29 AM

Think I'll go to Tesco.
Just to check the racks for CD-Rs.
With digitised vinyl on the phones.
Then to the pub to test gravity theories on pint glasses.
So glad I'm (still) not in Chippers . . .


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:32 AM

Ralphie and surreysinger...it's also sheeting down in North Shropshire...and presumably in Chester where we have a gig in a few hours....I just love unloading the van in the rain...

Just for the record, Ralphie certainly hasn't "appointed" himself as any kind of spokesperson for Leader artistes. I count myself lucky to be close friends with two such who have been fighting the struggle for years. I'm not prepared to name them,asI'm not sure they lurk here. If they do, they'll let us know....if they wish

What I do find sad is that it's taken a (fairly) obscure R4 prog to bring this to the notice of lots of people

Cheers mdears

Baz


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:44 AM

Not that I don't also count myself lucky to be a friend of Ralphie's, of course

Me again


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:48 AM

Re your final sentence, Baz - yes, it's sad - but at least (hopefully) it may have served the purpose of bringing the issue in front of a number of people who were still unaware of the issues involved.

Hope the gig goes well - and that the rain will have eased off before you need to unload the van!! Looking out of the window, there seems to be some non-grey light on the horizon - maybe I can duck out to Sainsbury's later on to replenish the food stores, and see humanity scurrying around in feverish fashion in the High Street !! Could even follow the Countess' CD-R hunt lead - although it might be more fun trying to find the folk section in HMV!!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:49 AM

It's those who know about it but don't care that bother me.
It's that talking bird again, taking the high moral ground even when muddling up the plot of Young Hunting.

If I had an arrow in my hand
And a bow bent on a string
I'd fire it o'er that light brown heart
Among the leaves so green


And I like that bit 'Martian Carthy' nicked for FFOSM about burning the villain 'like hokey green'.

I'm not vindictive . . .


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:51 AM

Baz
Thanks for your support..(although I think your need is greater than mine!)
People have told me to back off, and let it go. Have to admit that this whole situation is doing my head in.
But, having listened to my LPs of Tony Rose, Bandoggs, Phoebus, and a copy of Ms Costello this morning, This is a part of our heritage that has been lost.
I just can't let it go. Sorry!
Tufty Swift... Another lost record (Bakewell Tart)

Baz. Really looking forward to our meeting at Sidmouth.
As for the rest. Dog/Bone...rearrange

All the Best (and keep your raincoat handy)

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:57 AM

Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable.
The New Mexborough Concertina Quartet,and the sort of music we played is not represented by my music clips [so your comments are off beam].
Lastly my online shop has been successful,in the time it has been operating[5 months]I have just this month covered the cost of setting the website up.
prickine was the word used not pricknine,.
come down to west cork ,and you will find out what happens to prickines.they may get treated like royalty they may not.,remember this IS the rebel county,.[heres to the boys of kilmicheal, so honest so gallant and true who put upthe Green flag of Erin and tore down the Red White and Blue].


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:38 AM

Captain B, maybe if you try spelling it Prickeen? Or maybe (in totally fake Irish) pricín (the fada over the I isn't really coming through on the screen - it's that little diagonal line above the letter, as in French accents).

ín (een in English) is a diminutive e.g. Roisín = little rose etc.

Geddit?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:54 AM

As in (minion to Peter Mandelson about the New Labour logo): 'Isn't there something missing from the stem of that rose?'

Peter: 'No, absolutely not. We have enough pricks in this party already'.

That it?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 10:00 AM

prickeen,is right,thanks.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:33 PM

Sorry to have to tell you this but the sun is shining here. I'm away playing singing and generally enjoying myself whilst you seem to just want to do is stay home and whine into your Computers.

I'm not making any comment about artistic integrity or musical ability, Captain Birdseye, or who is on what Album. I have asked people to visit your web site, Dick Miles, and to decide if they think reissuing your Albums is a commercial proposition at this time. Sorry I did not realize that you wanted to capitalize on Martin Carthy playing Guitar on your Album "Cheating the tide". Would Martin Carthy receive a share or the lion's share of the profits from your record company from the sales of this Album?

For someone who seems to be trying to throw personal insults, Dick, you don't seem to be doing a great job. Now, Dick, you seem to think that you, Dick, can say that I would be putting my own personal safety at risk by visiting West Cork. Or are you, Dick, saying that it is a general warning to any one that you presume is English not visit Eire and in particular West Cork. Don't seem to be the best place in the world for an English concertina player to earn a living. Still as I can see from you photograph, Dick, it take all types to make a world Dick.

Please visit the Dick Miles website where you can purchases all his Albums and books however don't forget his own personal recommendation for and I quote "one good thing Dave Bulmer did, was to publish,2 0R WAS IT THREEvolumes of Irish tunes."


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:46 PM

Sorry Ralphie I thought you said you had retired I naturally thought you would have a pension and be a pensioner. I don't think this is the place to discuss your reasons for leaving the BBC. However would you now describe yourself as a Record Producer?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:51 PM

How are the Bright Phoebus sales going Dave?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:53 PM

Great keep up the good work Tyke


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:23 PM

The words hole, digging and stop and Tyke, come to mind, not necessarily in that order.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:28 PM

TYKE,I very much doubt if cheating the tide will ever appear as a cd,It is not up to me, but to the man who legally owns the mastertapes,however I strongly suspect that if he still owns the mastertapes, they are probably beyond salvation,.
I am concerned about what is morally right.
whether Martin Carthy received anything is not up to me ,as I do not own the mastertapes.,they are owned BY Bulmer.Bulmer has not agreed to sell them to me,your diatribe is a flight of fancy.,this claptrap about me benefiting, is also in the realms of fantasy.no one is benefiting at the moment.
you clearly lack a sense of humour,prickeens are not of sufficient significance,to bother wasting physical energy upon.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:21 PM

Oh Dick you sound upset Dick! Why? I did such a nice blue clicky link to your website Dick. When everyone gets back from the holidays you should sell out.

Oh I wonder why Dave Bullmer has decided not to sell you the Master tape Dick.
Could it be to do with your less than polite manner and your threats when you can't get your own way Dick?

Oh and Dick this is a Question Mark ? Its use means that it is a question not a statement. The avoidance of answering the question usual means that people has some thing to hide.

So as you produce your own CD's and market them through your own company.

Please answer these questions if you did get to own the Master tape and the right to re- release Cheating the Tide.

Would you produce Cheating the Tide as stated by you CD or produce it on CDR?

If you were where going to produce it on CD what would be the Minimum number of CDs that you would have to order in today's market?

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CD? (Not including royalties)

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CDR? (Not including royalties)

How much would the retail selling price be for this re-release?

As an independent record producer / publisher based in a different country how do you view the morality trading copyrights on the world market?

How much of a share of any profits made would go to Martin Carthy as I quote (cut and paste again)
"Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable."?

Come on Dick we all want to know.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:15 PM

Tyke,,This is an irrelevance.Dave Bulmer owns the mastertapes[for the last 16 /17 years approximately],he has not sold them to me,.
I had a perfectly polite conversation with him, he refused to sell them to me .,
many years later he still has done nothing with them.
What we all want to know apart from you, Tyke, is what does Bulmer intend to do about ALL the tapes /recordings in his possession,and what are the condition of all the mastertapes.
I have not threatened anyone, I said come down to west cork and you may get treated like royalty you may not,as you pointed out I am an english concertina player living in west cork,Iam ENGLISH[Partly IRISH partly GERMAN]have made my living for many years in English Folk clubs and festivals[as Iam sure you know ].quoting THE SONG The Boys of Kilmicheal,is not a threat,nor is stating that Cork is The rebel county,it was an attempt to bring a little levity to the subject matter,
now ,will you please stop trying to muddy the waters.,


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:20 PM

Answer the questions Dick or it is you who is trying to muddy the water.
So as you produce your own CD's and market them through your own company.

Please answer these questions if you did get to own the Master tape and the right to re- release Cheating the Tide.

Would you produce Cheating the Tide as stated by you CD or produce it on CDR?

If you were where going to produce it on CD what would be the Minimum number of CDs that you would have to order in today's market?

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CD? (Not including royalties)

What would be the cost of producing the album Cheating the Tide on CDR? (Not including royalties)

How much would the retail selling price be for this re-release?

As an independent record producer / publisher based in a different country how do you view the morality trading copyrights on the world market?

How much of a share of any profits made would go to Martin Carthy as I quote (cut and paste again)
"Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable."?

Come on Dick we all want to know.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:39 PM

I don't.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:52 PM

Nor do I.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:28 AM

Me neither - in fact who else apart from George wants to know?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:43 AM

Martin Carthy might!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:09 AM

Would he be any relation of Martian Carthy?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:31 AM

A run of 1000 CDs including paperwork and shrinkwrap was around £800 last time I got a quote. These figures are coming down all the time. So even at trade prices you'd only have to sell about 150 copies to break even - not an impossible target for a Nic Jones album, I'd have thought.

I wasn't aware that paying royalties to session musicans was general procedure.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:23 AM

Buspassed, you owe me an apology,Martin Carthy was paid as a session musician in 1985.,HE is /was perfectly happy with the arrangement.
my cds tutors etc,is a complete red herring,the thread is not about Dick Miles ,but about Dave Bulmer.
Dick Miles has worked 30 years as a professional musician,has always treated people honestly,and can sleep every night with a clear conscience.,now lets get back to the thread.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Point of information.....................
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:31 AM

Bulmer & Sharpley released 4 volumes of Irish dance music, plus one compilation of tunes from Sean Maguire [RIP].


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:46 AM

Yes, those well-known music publishers Bulmer'n'Sharpley (hah!) issued these volumes from Celtic Music in Louth 33 years ago.
They've been out of print for ages.
It's a ploy they use for 'saving the tradition'.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:51 AM

Captain Birdseye (dick miles) Answer the questions you are avoiding to prove to us that you have nothing to hide. Good on you Busspassed at least you have realized. that the pot is calling the kettle black.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:54 AM

Oh and it was you that brought up "Cheating the tide" Captain Birdseye in the first place and then you say that it's a red herring, it's muddying the waters.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:54 AM

Time for a quote again

"Subject: RE: BS: Lizzie - dyslexia
From: Folkiedave - PM
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:05 PM

I have taught people with dyslexia for a number of years.

I used to take students to N. Wales on a residential for a week designed to assist with group cohesion. One student was severely dyslexic and up to that point the others had tended to avoid him since he had difficulty contributing to group work.

Once we got to the bit on the residential when the students had problems to solve, (get across Bala using a 50 gallon oil drum and a paper clip sort of thing) James could not see why it was a problem and could solve those trials as a matter of course!! He soon became the person in most demand."

You may not understand why Dick Miles should answer the questions Folkiedave but it is obvious to me. Think about the questions and think about all the things Dave Bullmer is being accused of. The answers to those questions should tell you why Dave Bullmer is still in business whilst all those other small record companies have gone to the wall. Then just maybe you will understand how to get across the Bala in a barrel.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:56 AM

That is an investment of £1,832.35 plus the cost of checking the paperwork for each album if that is the minimum run, not for getting the artwork and printing. However for Dave to make every one happy he would have to produce ever album he owns the rights too. That is a more than a serious amount of money for any one. The logistics of storing Millions of freshly made CD's. Even then with the price of the original collectable market falling, including Folkiedave stock, Some Artists who are still producing Albums are not going to be happy for one reason or another.
You have answered two of the questions Dick Miles who has his own international record company. He would like to buy the rights to Cheating the Tide because I quote "Tyke,my lp Cheating the tide,has Martin Carthy ,playing the guitar that in itself makes it commercially viable. Assuming this is correct he stands to make a profit of over £11000 pounds and not pay Martin Carthy a penny.

Proof enough that he has his own reasons for saying quote "Bulmrer is a complete bollox.Ihope he rots in hell." And it aint to do with our valuable "Folk heritage" or providing for ageing Folk Artists.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:56 AM

Slurryslinger :- I notice that the only person you have pulled up for typo's is just myself.
I presume having spotted many typos from others when I have done the cut and paste thing. That I was correct "Surreysinger I was being sarcastic I'm not really sorry. I plain and simple you have made no comment about other contributors Typo's, as they seemed to take your point of view."


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:26 AM

"That is an investment of £1,832.35 plus the cost of checking the paperwork for each album if that is the minimum run, not for getting the artwork and printing."

I'm not sure where the figure of £1,832.35 comes from, Tyke, but the figure of £800 I mentioned did include printing of the cover art (an 8-page booklet in the case of my quote). What it did not include was the cost of resetting original LP artwork to CD format, although that's the kind of job I could probably manage on my home computer and even if put out to commercial tender I can't see it inflating the costs that much.

"However for Dave to make every one happy he would have to produce ever album he owns the rights too."

Who has been asking for that? The Nic Jones albums would be a good start in anyone's book - maybe the profits could subsidise the release of Cecilia Costello or O. J. Abbott?

I'm still not clear why (in the hypothetical event of his re-releasing "Cheating the Tide" on his own label) Dick should be expected to pay Martin over and above his original, agreed session fee.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:27 AM

Tyke ,youare trying my patience ,my buying of my own work from Dave Bulmer is at this stage hypothetical.
supposing the master tapes are salvageable,after twenty years,and assuming Dave Bulmer sells them to me[of what commercial value they are to me ]depends on what he asks for them and how salvageable they are.[over 15 years of being denied my own work,I may not be entitled to legal compensation,but morally I feel I am due something ]
the pot is not calling the kettle black,.
I do not own or hoard anyone elses work, Dave Bulmer does.
Iam not an INTERNATIONAL RECORDING COMPANY I am a musician,who has never received any royalties from any recording companies apart from Brewhouse.I have produced two cds,on my own label.
I wish to have control over my own recordings,for what should be obvious reasons,rather than let them fall into the hands of others who might keep them out of the public domain,as has been done with Cheating THE tide for the last 15/18 years .
I have 3 cds on my website.,Boxing Clever has sold 800 COPIESin 8 years[100 copies a year],Your comparisons are ridiculous
Dave Bulmer has the complete Leader CATALOGUE.,including Nic Jones,who can no longer work as a professional musician.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:57 AM

George.
This scattergun approach at Herring Flinging is becoming ridiculous.
I may be entirely wrong, but, I'm sure that all Dick Miles wants is the ownershio and publishing rights to be returned to him at a fair price.
Dave Bulmer is not prepared to even negotiate that.

If (big if) Dick were to regain the rights etc to his work, then it would up to Dick if he ever thought about re releasing. It might be that he didn't think it would be worth it, but, at least he would have the choice so to do.
So, all your Flim Flam about pressing costs/ CD v CD-R is just that.

I'm sure that Dick and Dave could strike a deal, whereby Celtic could be cut in on any future release, lets face it he's eaning diddly squat at the moment, and he wouldn't have to front up the production costs himself. Win Win I would say.

As for guest artists appearing on CDs. I'm with Brian Peters on this one, I've never even heard of any Guest being paid anything a flat fee for the work that they do.
Yes, in the rock world, there is a system called "points"
A Guest artists may waive there session fee, and opt for points instead (Points are a percentage of sales, not sure exactly what, but getting a 1 point deal for playing on an Elton John CD could be incredibly lucrative!)
The folk scene....Nah!

I've played on several albums, always for a flat fee. If any of them went platinum, well good luck to the artist I say. Nowt to do with me.

Oh, and I'm assuming your use of the word "Slurryslinger" was just a symptom of your dyslexia (which I've never mentioned by the way)
It couldn't have possibly been a very childish insult could it?? Oh No !!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 09:02 AM

Purely for the sake of getting the 300, I'd like to point out that English cowpat music is really quite nice and the slurrysinger might be flattered.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 09:03 AM

300
Just an apology for the typos in the last bit, before anyone picks me up on them!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Patronising Git.
Date: 28 May 07 - 09:58 AM

It was slurrey SLINGER actually Diane- an even better joke than for which you give him credit.

Say what you want about Tyke, but amidst all the heat, fury, slings, arrows, rants and raves he stands his lonely ground in his own peculiar "never admit you're wrong" way. Now who does that remind me of?....


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:16 AM

Well you missed it the First time Ralphie Guest it was after his peronal attack all was focust on was RRst. Never the less that is what he was doing. Oh and as for getting off the subject and redherrings he didn't contribute.
Deep envy Kevin - I have a fair few, but nowhere near that many!

Dai - nope, I retired from the Revenue on ill health grounds about two and a half years ago (hoorah!), so don't need to be out and working today (double hoorah!) Remind me to tell you about it next time I see you - will that be Spiers and Boden on 22nd June, by any chance?? (It's just as well, anyway, as I feel worn out after attending the Keith Summers festival at the King and Queen over the weekend - great time had by all!!)

But i'm not picking on him because he's an ex Tax Collector.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:17 AM

You morally fell that you should be due something Dick then what about the morality of not having to Pay Martin Carthy anything. When you yourself admit that it is his standing that would be, ok, one of the reasons that this Album Cheating the Tide would be commercially viable.

You have your own record label and you distribute it via the Internet your prices are in euros. Correct me if I am wrong but that means that you are distributing Albums and Tune Books. Worldwide. So you are running a business that is internationally available to all are you not. So you are in competition with Dave Bullmer who is also a record distributor like yourself and has his own record Label.

Naturally you wish to have control over your own work then why did you sign the contract that gave those rights away? However you are not the only musician involved in the two Albums you wish to own the rights of.

I have contributed to a thread called Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer that started by Folkiedave. I listen to the programme and I heard Dave Bullmer's honest and open contribution to it.

Immediately the next contributor incorrectly quoted the programmes contents. You brought in to the discussion your own differences with Dave Bullmer. Feelings are running high no one wants to say anything that they could be sued for. I doubt if anybody wants to insult anyone's artistic integrity accept for Dave Bullmer that is. Dave Bullmer is making and has made his own commercial decisions about the property that he owns. He is still in business whilst others who have made the wrong or the correct commercial decisions have got out of the folk music industry.

Nick Jones well I sure no one can put into words the loss of his talents have been to Folk Music. The Smashing his Albums in a well know London record store has noting to do with making Nick Jones and his music available has it. I would have thought a positive step to help Nick Jones would be to organize fundraisers for Nick or if he is not in need of the Money. To help all those other people and their cares that suffer from a traumatic brain injury.

I would be personally very proud to have a musician of Martin Carthy's standing think enough about my Musicianship to agree to appear on my Album. I don't think the money aspect of it would be my main concern.

If you are losing patience with me now! That is just a red herring to hide the fact that you were the one to bring up your own personal grips into a thread about Bright Phoebus. You are the one who has made a personal attack on me in your contribution to this thread. You grip about Dave Bullmer not making your work available but in fact it's about owning the rights to your and other peoples work and being able to transfer those rights into different country. If its about making your past work available offer to pay Dave Bullmer up front for a 2000 copies of the two Albums on CD format and see if he will do the deal. Do the Maths it's going to take you twenty years to sell them all. I quote you "I have 3 cds on my website.,Boxing Clever has sold 800 COPIESin 8 years[100 copies a year], If people are still buying things on CD in two years time. Good job Eire is such a dry climate and perfect for the storage of CDs Dick.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:19 AM

No, PG. Slurry SINGER is far better . . .
(as in 'How far, how far can you throw Elgar?')

I might have been wrong over lots of things (just counting them) but on this issue I'm not.
Tyke/George gets stuff wrong each time he opens his mouth (as in 'hole' 'stop' 'digging' 'spade').


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:29 AM

RRst

No, no George, the slurrys(l)inging person was addressing ME.
SHE was telling me not to bother to text her. As if . . .

I listen to the programme and I heard Dave Bullmer's honest and open contribution to it

I have a copy and, no, I can't find that bit.

( 'hole' 'stop' 'digging' 'spade')


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:35 AM

Tyke,he is Nic Jones.
Dave Bulmer owns the leader catalogue.,amongst this catalogue are many different peoples work.
I own my own recordings,but not those sold by Dambuster and Greenwich Village to Dave Bulmer.
Iam unable to bootleg my own recordings because it is illegal,and Dave Bulmer might sue me,personally I would prefer DaveBulmer brought out the recordings[even if I didnt see a penny from them]than that they never saw the light of day]
why dont you contact Martin Carthy ask him what he thinks,he will probably you tell to stop being so daft.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:39 AM

Oh dear perhaps we should blame the NHS for a lack of herring aids. Don't for get the first miss quote was from you Diane it was corrected by Folkiedave. However and I am sticking to my guns on this there is no truth in the rumore about you and Dave Bullmer.

Nearly did a proper red herring I meant hearing :-)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:43 AM

The Smashing his Albums in a well know London record store has noting to do with making Nick Jones and his music available

Yes it does.

It make an HMV store manager aware in a dramatic way that Nic Jones' music ought to be made available as an ETHICAL product from which he would benefit.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:50 AM

there is no truth in the rumore about you and Dave Bullmer

Clearly not.
There is no rumour.

As for my 'misquote' at the outset of the thread, I explained it by my state of stunned astonishment at hearing that South Shields voice drifting from the speakers when I wasn't really listening. I'd thought there could be nothing new I'd never heard before on this subject, but recorded it anyway.

Actually, what I thought I'd heard about the contracts was only half as bad as the reality.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:51 AM

That was me.
The very thought of that voice makes me forget my name.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Patronising git.
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:55 AM

Diane: I never said you were wrong on this one darling. On the other hand, although Planet Tyke's a strange place (I mean, you couldn't make it up, let's be honest), now and then along the way he makes a fair point.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:58 AM

Tyke.
Do you not read peoples posts before you reply, or is it a deliberate attempt at obfuscation??

So far, Dick Miles, Brian Peters, and myself (all of whom have been around the block a few times on the Folk Scene) have quite reasonably refuted all your comments.

We all know only too well what's going on here.

You say that DB has a successful record label.
I'd be glad to know its name, pray tell.
If it's so successful, then how come he's not exactly letting anybody know about it?

Apart from a few Irish CDs a quarter of a century ago, and the legal, if slightly suspect release of the first 2 NIC Jones LPs and Bright Phoebus, by the back door, what else is there?

I may be mistaken, but to be successful in business, aren't you supposed to sell something?

George, please stop digging. You are just looking foolish now.

Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:00 AM

He's just started another thread asking in what format will albums be produced in the future.
Does he mean he's actually going to persuade his mate to do this?
Or is he just asking for an ingenious use for a Flash stick?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:07 AM

Diane.

Thats below the belt!!
R


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:13 AM

I reapeat for the hard of hearing.

"Nick Jones well I sure no one can put into words the loss of his talents have been to Folk Music. The Smashing his Albums in a well know London record store has noting to do with making Nick Jones and his music available has it. I would have thought a positive step to help Nick Jones would be to organize fundraisers for Nick or if he is not in need of the Money. To help all those other people and their cares that suffer from a traumatic brain injury."

What effect will it have to go round smashing Nick Jones Albums because of Ethics? The record shop makes a profit on the sale and hopefully pay's their bill. I don't know how this works do they pay the record company the royalties or do they pay direct to, not sure about this help, is it MRIPS or some one. I expect all these record producers on here will know. Then that monies are distributed to whom ever is legally entitled to it. After the Taxman has got a slice of it naturally. I don't want to upset any tax collectors again do I?

All I can see it doing is putting the record stores off buying Folk Albums in a shrinking market for them. So who is supressing the release of Folk Albums.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:27 AM

No Ralphie it was not below the belt I hang my 4 gig Flash Stick around my neck. Which as you know I am prepared to stick out a long way.

I have started a new thread it is true as asking the same question on this thread don't seem to get an answer.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:28 AM

Tyke.
Do you not read peoples posts before you reply, or is it a deliberate attempt at obfuscation??


No.
And yes, would appear to be the answers.

I repeat for the aurally-challenged:

the Taxman has got a slice of it naturally

Er, no. The issuing source would need to be MCPS registered.
HMV, at least, is now aware that the source of some of their stock was not subject to this.

who is supressing the release of Folk Albums

He who holds the rights. Not hard.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Diane Easby
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:31 AM

Bugger. 'Twas me again.
Tell yer wot, if I change my Mudcat membership name would you all (by which I mean SOME) promise not to bombard me with PMs?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:45 AM

The record shop makes a profit on the sale and hopefully pays their bill. I don't know how this works do they pay the record company the royalties or do they pay direct to, not sure about this help, is it MRIPS or some one

There is another way you could put that George. You could say "I don't know what I am talking about".

We all knew that - but now you have got around to confirming it.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Dyslexia or not, It's just downright rude to spell Nic Jones incorrectly at every chance it's N...I...C Gottit??

"All I can see it doing is putting the record stores off buying Folk Albums in a shrinking market for them. So who is supressing the release of Folk Albums."

Dave Bulmer, That's who.
Not a member of PRS, and has been on The Musicians Union Blacklist for years.

Come on George Oh Asker of questions.
Name this company that Dave runs that is so successful, and I will take it up with Companies House, and find out just how successful it is.

Nothing to do with Scotland perchance ???

Freedom of Information act, etc, etc.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 12:32 PM

Why is it that whenever I think of this subject, I feel a "Watchdog" (BBC consumer prog for those abroad) moment coming on.
Would make a change for Nicky Campbell to get his teeth into something other than rogue builders and time share companies.

Just a thought.

Oh, and many days ago, Tyke asked what all this was doing for sales of BP?

Seeing it's not actually available in many places, if at all. probably not much, but, Tykes continued upping the anti has kept this thread at the top of the pile.
Tyke, if you hadn't entered the fray with pointless and inappropriate questions, after a couple of days, and a few grumbles this thread would have withered on the vine.

I'm sure that Dave B is very pleased that you are standing up for him, and drawing worldwide attention to his activities (Or lack of them).

I know for a fact, that there are some very influential people in the music business reading this, And keeping copies. Which is why I try to be circumspect in what I say.

You and I will probably be safe, as I certainly have no legal ties to Bulmer. Presumably you don't either, do you?
Thats OK then.

And before you bring up my connection with NIC (note sp) Jones, that project was a labour of love for NIC and his family, and if you had read the sleevenotes on "Unearthed" you will have noted that my fee was a Kit-Kat. (Actually, Julia sent me two, but I think it was a buy one get one free deal in Tescos!)

Always be aware of what you put in a public forum. because it is just that. Public....
So, old friend, keep digging. It's all useful stuff.

Maybe you now understand why DB won't go public.

"Anything you say....etc"

DB has lots to lose. One slip, and it might not be nice.

So, Tyke Old Bean, carry on digging, Keep this subject alive. No probs for me. and the world is reading, and making up its own mind.

Look forward to the next round of ridiculous questions

Ralph J

Even you should get it now!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 01:29 PM

Well I have to admit Diane being Dyslexic it takes me longer to write a reply, I also tend to do it in a programme with a spellchecker. Then when I come to post my reply someone has added another comment. However as I have taken the view that I have been responding to what individuals have already contributed. It has been to them that I have been responding especially when they do not want to receive PM's.

Oh Folkiedave how I pity all those poor students you used to teach who were Dyslexic. Don't you know that we find just using initials difficult naturally you did according to someone, who I will not name, she told me you new everything about everything.

Where doses Royalties portion of the sale of those Albums go? Folkiedave or don't you know the answer. I which case I will personal correct my friend's statement and point this out to her.

Ralphie or is it Ralph you will have to take up my not intentional rude ness to Nic with Bill Gates as its his spellchecker that I am using. But how rude is it to smash up an Artists Album in a record shop? Even if you did pay for it first!

The Musicians Union Blacklist advises artist to contact them before signing any contracts with Dave Bullmer all so on that Blacklist is or was a BBC producer or now Ex BBC Producer. I suspect that there are a lot of people who are not members of PRS. The question is who collects the Royalties due from the retail shop and is responsible for paying the artists who are registered members of PRS and MCPS.

I am trying to be nice here but this is not about Nic Jones or Dick Miles its about lot's of record companies getting Artists to sign contracts which they later regret signing. Other people than Dave Bullmer issued most of these contracts however these people seem to be totally innocent.

Oh Ralphie or Ralph you do seem to answer any questions at all I ask a question and this blue haze of indignation drifts over you. I point out the pointless destruction of smashing up a CD in a London record store and you are so upset. I'm throwing in Red Herrings Tykes mudding the waters yes I heard it all before. I ask questions that you don't want to answer you won't let people send you personal messages because I'll quote a personal message without revelling the author's name "Ferchrissake George. Ralph was a Mudcat member for years. Long before even I was. He
opted out and no longer gets raving loonie PMs from nutters."

You won't talk to Dave Bullmer you won't visit Dave facilities to check on how he is storing these master tapes! Now we find that you think the Mudcat is full of nutters and loonies.

Oh I've got the answer Folkiedave he stuck his head inside the 50 gallon oil drum after pining the directions to the inside of the oil drum with a paper clip so that he would know which side of the Bala he was heading and walked across the Bala.
If only Ralph had been there he could have shown them how to walk on water.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 07 - 01:46 PM

Has anyone previously mentioned that Bulmer hit Topic with an injunction to try and stop the Nic Jones CD Game Set Match going out?

Did he really kill his parents so he could go on the Orphan's Outing?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 07 - 02:12 PM

interesting.
Now Tyke,what is your response to that.
6,20,3,11,15,6,6,19,24,11,5.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 May 07 - 02:14 PM

How can I put this even more simply?

PRS royalties are collected and distributed centrally and are payable in respect of airplay and live performance. Whoever holds the publishing rights gets such payments direct from the PRS.

MCPS payments (mechanicals) are collected as a result of numbers pressed then sold when the producer has applied for and received a licence. CDs produced at a proper pressing plant from glass masters are rather less likely to escape this control than CD-Rs burnt on a computer and no licence obtained. No returns = no artists' royalties.

So it's not hard to work out who loses out in each instance.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 02:30 PM

interesting.
Now Tyke,what is your response to that.
6,20,3,11,15,6,6,19,24,11,5.

Err is it your Irish lottery Number Dick?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:18 PM

So what you are saying is that Bill Leader got the Watersons to sign away their Royalty rights until 2000 copies of the Bright Phoebus album were sold. This was presumably so he could make a fare profit for his out lay or at least cover his costs. The consequence was that Bill Leader only produced 1000 good copies. As he was not able to sell all those copies of Bright Phoebus he did not produce any more. He then sold his catalogue that included the Album Bright Phoebus to someone else who sold it to someone else who sold it to Dave Bulmer.

As Dick Miles has told us it has taken him eight years to sell 800 copies of his albums. Which he has produced in the CD format and unlike Vinyl is still mainstream format. Ralphie has told us that this Album Bright Phoebus was ahead of its time. We have also been told that royalties are paid on sales of Albums.

And you state "MCPS payments (mechanicals) are collected as a result of numbers pressed then sold when the producer has applied for and received a licence. CDs produced at a proper pressing plant from glass masters are rather less likely to escape this control than CD-Rs burnt on a computer and no licence obtained. No returns = no artists' royalties."

I'm saying that the amount of CD's anyone would have to produce if the complete Bill Leader collection was to be reissued would cost millions. The storage costs would be astronomical. You are aware that CDs are going the way of Vinyl and Cassettes and that the copyright Laws are going to change. Lets hope the MCPS realize that a check of who has sold what to who is all held on the Barcode that is scanned at the check out. Then they can collect the Royalties due and pay them to person or persons who are legally entitled to receive them.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:45 PM

- Thread - Message - RE: Lyr Req: When the Coal Comes from the Rhondda - May 21 2005 12:25PM -   Miskin Man
Summary: Calennig CD "You can take a white Horse anywhere" available from me for £12-00 including p&p Andy Jackson, 52 Llantrisant Road, Pontyclun,Wales CF72 9DQ This was re-pressed after Mick's stroke thanks to valiant effort by Dave Bulmer, about whom you hear much bad, but he did us good.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:56 PM

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: LANCASHIRE LAD - PM
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM

Hi Dick

I'm one of the few people on here who doesnt believe Dave Bulmer is the devil incarnate!

CM have now released 2 Nic Jones albums. Royalties have been sent, but cheques remain uncashed as I believe there are ongoing negotiations over new contracts / royalty rates , etc

I'm not sure about all artists on the label, but a friend recently spoke to Sid Kipper, he said he gets paid no problem and is happy to keep releasing his stuff through them

Yes they press on CDR, but had I not been told, I would never have guessed. I've bought quite a few of them and never had a single problem yet

By the way though. There are a lot more than a "few" CDs they have released. CM own everything on Trailer, Leader, Black Crow, Making Waves, Mulligan, Dara, Broadside, Sweet Folk and Country, Folk Heritage, Greenwich Village, Rubber and I'd guess a load more.

Cheers

LL


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:01 PM

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM

Ok-
A partial listing:

LER 2027       Nic Jones               Nic Jones
CROC 211       5-Hand Reel               Gaughan, etc.
LER 2014       Ballads & Songs               Nic Jones
RUB 028               Nowt So Good'll Pass       Bob Fox, Sid Luckley
LER 2122       Chained Melody               Sid Kipper
PHF 1004       Barking Mad               4 Men & a Dog
PHF 1003       Shifting Gravel               4 Men & a Dog
PHF 1005       Dr. A's Secret Remedies       4 Men & a Dog
PHF 1006       Long Roads               4 Men & a Dog
LUN 051               Time to Time               Gerry O'Connor
LE 4006               The Border Minstrel       Billy Pigg
MOO 2               Rooted!                        Mike Harding
LE 2121               Cod Pieces               Sid Kipper
                   Arky's Toast               Martyn Wyndham-Read
LE 2092               Maypoles to Mistletoes       Martyn Wyndham-Read
RUB 029               On Two Levels               Sean McGuire & Josephine Keegan
LE 2011               Rout of the Blues       Robin, Barry Dransfeld
PHF 1001       From the Beggar's Mantle Barbara Dickson
PHF 1002       Orfeo                        Archie Fisher
GVR 214               Songs & Tunes From Wales       Mick Terns & Pat Smith
GVR 224               You Can Take a White Horse Anywhere Terns & Smith                                                                                                   
CMC 080               Both Sides of the Coyne         Mick Coyne
CMC 009               Hom Bru                        Obadeea
CMC 079               Lifeswork                James Keegan
DAM 056               Since Time Immoral         Kipper Family
PHC 2K2               Legendary Queen of Irish Folk Singers       Delia Murphy
LER 2044       Music From the Coleman Country Revisited       various
LED 2052       Shetland Fiddlers       various (inc. Aly Bain & Tom
                                                         Anderson)
CGR 002               Mouth Organ             Will Atkinson
LER 2038       The Bonny Birdy             Ray Fisher
LER 2076       Bright Phoebus             Lal & Mike Waterson
GVR 209               The Ettrick Shepherd       The McCalmans
GVR 209               Aboard the Cutty Sark       Stan Hugill
CMC 081               You are Here                Tich Frier
PHC 2K7               Frank Wappat's Spring Collection       various
PHK 2K3               The Street Singer       Arthur Tracy


Can't quote prices as yet--I'd rather wait a short while and see if I'll be lynched by maddend Mudcatters


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:17 PM

Subject: Sign on the dotted line Kid!
From: Rick Fielding - PM
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:45 PM

I've been reading this thread
click

with great interest, and it's an oft repeated tale. Sometimes we as performers think that "our work belongs to us" no matter how unprepared (or excited) we were when presented with our first contract. Simply not so. Legal documents favour those who've done their "homework", not those who want to make the world a better place.

Take it from someone who has signed their name several times to contracts that they simply didn't read fully, GET a LAWYER....even if you think they're parasites.

There is nothing so disheartening as seeing your emotional Art discussed in corporate legal terms.....but remember, YOU gave the suits that power when you signed on the dotted line.


Rick


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:31 PM

Hi Tyke.

Glad you've learned how to spell Nics name correctly

Cut and paste coming up.
(It's quite theraputic doing this in the wee small hours...mind you it's easier replying to you than shooting herrings , red or otherwise in a barrel)

Erewigo!!


"Ralphie or is it Ralph you will have to take up my not intentional rude ness to Nic with Bill Gates as its his spellchecker that I am using. But how rude is it to smash up an Artists Album in a record shop? Even if you did pay for it first!"

To My Friends it's Ralph/Ralphie.
To you it is Mr Jordan. (Mainly because I don't consider that we have a friendship. Sad but true)

As for the terrible sight of me destroying a Bulmer release in a record shop.
Woops sorry, was that an offence bigger than the Great Train Robbery??

It certainly made the manager think about who he was dealing with.
Yes, of course it was petty and childish....but it worked.
That shop doesn't stock such product anymore,
Result!!

Keep it coming Tyke Old Bean.
The longer you keep this thread alive, The longer Mr Bulmer is going to get very annoyed with you.
He wants to keep everything nice and quiet,
The less publicity that this whole subject gets, the better as far as he is concerned.
So, Come on George, keep your ridiculous posts flowing in.
I don't mind, Have all the time in the world.
But, if I were you, I'd keep my front door locked. There are dangerous people out there.

I would be very careful what you say in open forum. (Unless you are the earthly representative of DB??)

Just for Mr Sharpleys benefit. (Yes I know you are out there reading this, Hi Neil!)

I have no financial, legal, or indeed any claim in all of this sad, sorry saga.

I was never an artist with any of the labels now owned by Dave Bulmer (Celtic Music). And therefore have no self interest in this ridiculous situation for personal gain.

If the rights of the recordings reverted to the relevant artists (By negotiation, or whatever, There has got to be a deal available, otherwise what is your agenda?)

Firstly I would be a very happy man.
Secondly, I would not gain ONE PENNY for myself.

Phew...hopefully that keeps me out of court!!

Tyke. Look forward to trying to understand what the hell it is you're talking about tommorow. Not holding out much hopes in the "Making sense" Dept.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:35 PM

Mmmm

Just noticed that my last post was 333.

Which is "Half the Number of the Beast"

Serendipity or what!!

Goodnight


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:55 PM

Oh Just to finish. (Dog/Bone)
Yes I do remember that post from Lanc Lad in 2004.
And yes the Jones family did recieve checks, but to have banked them would have made them complicit and liable. (So, they didn't, wisely)
So, very sensibly, they are sitting in a cupboard somewhere, I assume.
Unbanked and Uncashed.
Not good enough. Someday, Mr Bulmer has got to do a deal.
I'm so glad that I've retired. I now have a purpose....

Onwards and Upwards

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:13 PM

Look I was going to bed honest!!.....Really I was!

Then I found this.
Oh Mr Tyke. How could you shoot yourself in the foot so magnificently....Well Done...Bravo!!


"Subject: RE: What format will Albums be produced on?
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:54 PM

Yes you have my vote Steve and with proper safe guards to protect Artist rights.(!!!!!!!!) Some sort of Anti Spamming device that stops the moneymen flooding the web with what they want to sell would be good.(!!!!!) So you can find just what you are looking for instead of the stuff that makes them the most money."

The exclamation marks are mine (Ralph)

Tyke. Hang your head in shame.

Shuffling off to bed chortling serenely!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:36 PM

Tyke writes: "You are aware that CDs are going the way of Vinyl and Cassettes and that the copyright Laws are going to change" as part of his justification for Mr Bulmer's reluctance to release his ill-gotten gains on proper CDs. Well, Mr Tyke, I remind you that this situation is hardly new, and that nobbut a few years ago you could not have forseen this particular excuse. You do appear to be fishing around a bit here.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:26 PM

Tyke wrote "I'm saying that the amount of CD's anyone would have to produce if the complete Bill Leader collection was to be reissued would cost millions. The storage costs would be astronomical. You are aware that CDs are going the way of Vinyl and Cassettes and that the copyright Laws are going to change. Lets hope the MCPS realize that a check of who has sold what to who is all held on the Barcode that is scanned at the check out. Then they can collect the Royalties due and pay them to person or persons who are legally entitled to receive them."

No not fishing facts I have done fishing and catching Red Herrings Steve. Dave Bulmer is responsible for running a company that has a legal responsibility to see that justifiable finance decisions are made he has shareholders to answer too. The giving away of company assets that are not his to give cannot be one that he can legaly do I would have thought.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:47 AM

I pretty-much know that if it's a Bulmer thread, it's going to be trouble sooner or later. I'm starting to get complaints. Please try to be civil and truthful.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:56 AM

Ask an artist whose work is caught up in the impasse why won't Celtic won't release the albums in the Leader/Trailer back catalogue and the answer is invariably (suitably edited): 'Sorry, I failed O-level telepathy'.

On the face of it, it makes no commercial or artistic sense of any kind and the suspicion is, therefore, that an understanding of the reasons behind the policy lies more within the province of psychiatry than music.

Are these 'shareholders' to whom Mr Tyke refers aware that artists' requests to buy back their rights are routinely refused? Can they figure out why Mr Bulmer sits on these assets 'that are not his' (according to George/Tyke) and does nothing to make any money out of them for himself, for the 'shareholders' or the artists?

Seems to me 'shareholders' have some questions to ask at the AGM. When is it, George? There is not, after all a lot of point in whingeing to Joe Offer. What can he do?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:09 AM

Message to Joe Offer.

Hi Jo. Yes you are right!
Whenever this subject comes up, either here or in any other place, it tends to escalate. As I'm sure that you are aware, the whole CM debate is a very sore point here in the UK (Quite what you guys in the US and elsewhere make of it all, I don't know!)

When this thread started, it was originally referring to a BBC Rado Documentary about seminal albums that had dropped off the Radar over the years.

I was very surprised in fact that anyone had remembered Bright Phoebus at all.

As I said yesterday, I fully expected a few days of the usual grumbling from the usual subjects (Including myself), and then it would slowly go away again.

Instead, This poster known as Tyke, has on a daily basis, fanned the flames, and I for one have sadly risen to his bait. For which I apologise.

As you say "If it is a Bulmer thread, then there is going to be trouble"

Sadly, you couldn't be more correct. And until some sort of resolution occurs, this subject will keep popping up.

You say you've had complaints? I would ask who from, but I'm not going to, that would be unfair!!! I can guess though. (I think I can safely say that it's unlikely to be from the artists side of the argument, which means.....)
But, point taken. It's a US forum, and I for one thank you and Max for allowing us UK bods in to play. I will try to curb my temper a bit more, but I'm only human, and when I see friends suffering and/or dying without justice, it's slightly annoying.

I'll consider myself spanked!

Cheers Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:28 AM

guest28 may o7,1 46 pm,said has anyone mentioned thatBulmer hit Topic with an injunction to try and stop the Nic Jones cd Game set and match going out.
TYKE,are you seriously going to defend that action,here is NicJones,unable to play music as he used to,and Dave Bulmer allegedly tries to prevent the recording ,if this is true its disgraceful,as you are a friend of Daves perhaps you could clarify the matter.,Do youknow whether this happened or not.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:32 AM

I was recently castigated in another thread by a Murkan for giving 'too much information' about an English issue and I replied that there were constant reminders that this was a US forum and I was simply filling in background to bridge two nations divided by a common language (and sometimes the reverse).

You do do things very differently over there: contracts, royalties, indeed the whole musbiz set-up is not (yet) universally globalised. We even spell that last word differently. And the contributions from Mr Greenhaus indicate that he really does not grasp how seriously some of us take the ongoing CM tragedy.

So it's a difficult course to steer when, time and time again, the 'truth' is (usually) 'civilly' related, only for the usual suspects to churn out (whether through ignorance or bloodymindedness) the same old, now becoming very smelly, herrings.

So I apologise (there's another one) Joe, if you are finding this tedious. But I hope you will endeavour (and another) to understand ust how important it is.

Meanwhile, I await news of the CM AGM. As I have re-cookied. George/Tyke (or anyone else) could PM me. Though I'd rather see it posted here. It's not off-topic after all, is it?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:35 AM

Referring to the injunction on Topic, Dick Miles said:

Do you know whether this happened or not

It did.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:45 AM

Dick, the answer to your question re Game, Set, Match is an unequivocal YES!!
TOPIC records have always done the decent thing by Nic, and the Game ,Set, Match CD (along with "In Search of" and "Unearthed") a fitting tribute to a fine musician. Hats off to TOPIC for going for it.
The sadness is that the real treasures (The first 4 Discs) are still lost to the world.
Regards Ralphie
(Oh and Dick, I know it's hard but I would urge you to consider Mr Offers pleas. It would be a shame if this thread were closed down. The more people worldwide, the better it is. so bite your tongue occasionally!!!!)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:05 AM

I noted JOE OFFERS comments,and posted a question,that was perfectly polite.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:30 AM

Dick.
And a very good question it was too!
How interesting that the Topic/Bulmer subject made its way to Ireland.!!
If your lost album and the mexborough stuff ever see the light of day, my cheque will be in the post!!!

Regards Ralphie (Not having a go, honest Guv!)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:56 AM

I understand that the shareholders (to whom Mr B must "consider") are Dave Bulmer and Neil Sharpley - for CM Records Ltd. The other shareholder for another DB company is Ruth Bulmer who is co shareholder with DB at Loyalware Ltd. Take the change out of that.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:56 AM

Hi Andy.
Like the name "Loyalware LTD"
R


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 07 - 10:01 AM

I have started a new thread called Morality of collecting,which mentions Dave Bulmer and asks opinions about paying contributors for their efforts.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 29 May 07 - 10:36 AM

Apparently its a fact. Loyalware! Perhaps royalties will flow from there with the abundance of milk and honey?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 10:41 AM

Loyalware's incorporation address as registered at Companies House is in Pawnshop Passage in Louth.
About right for weasels.
Oops, did I really say that out loud?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:33 PM

And there's more....................

Celtic Visions, owned by D R Bulmer and Ruth Bulmer! and its office too is in Pawnshop Passage. Class.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:55 PM

Am I mistaken, or was Louth (Lincolnshire UK) the town where Mr Sharpley was Coroner, or somesuch for a short time a while ago before things took a downward turn?

I have to say that a more apposite name for a business address would be hard to imagine.

And having just done a Multimap search for Pawnshop Passages, it does exist, but it can't be very big, you can't zoom in close eough to see it.

Are there anymore companies in P Passages, I wonder??

And does anyone know the whereabouts of Mr Cooksey? I would dearly love to hear about his action with regards "The Sick Note"

Regards to all Ralphie

(Mr Tyke has gone a bit quiet today, hasn't he?)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:03 PM

Mr S, the ex-solicitor, had a little contretemps with the good burghers of Louth who decided he wasn't fit to be their coroner after his run-in with the Law Society.

It is also the provenance of S&B's venture into Irish music publishing, though the four volumes are long out of print.

Pat Cooksey . . . ah yes. Looking.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:29 PM

...........and M O R E ..............

CELTIC ROOTS LIMITED   ...... registered office is in .... yes, you've guessed......Pawnshop Passage


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:05 PM

So,
In this interestingly named "Pawnshop Passage" In Louth Lincs UK.
We have three companies.

Loyalware plc
Celtic Visions
Celtic Roots Ltd.

No sign of
Celtic Music
Music By Mail....(as yet)

Anyone want to add to the list?

Ralph


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:55 AM

CM Records Ltd
PR Records Ltd


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:26 AM

glancing up, I notice six threads about Dave Bulmer which have been closed,now a seventh[the morality of collecting].
does he enter the guinness book of records,for having the most threads closed.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:47 PM

The number of threads, closed, aborted, and continuing show the general annoyance of the UK folk world to Bulmer (and Sharpley). It may well qualify for the Guinness Book Of Records - but what a crap record to hold!

Related threads:
master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer (359)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6) (136)
Photo of Bulmer required (24)
BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry (3)
Dave Bulmer - Address (39)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) (88) (closed)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (4) (122) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3 (124) (closed)
'Celtic / Bulmer' aborted Part 3 (12) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (96) (closed)
The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:59 PM

yes you think he might do something to improve his image,like release the NicJones tapes or if they are still in salvageable condition the Mike and Lal tapes.
Come on Dave,you did the decent thing by MickTems,do the decent thing for Nic Jones.


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:08 PM

A crap record? Yes.
But how easily could this be reversed . . . ?
Dave Bulmer surely would like to be the most loved and revered bloke in the history of trad music (OK, that's pushing it).
But we'd all think he was quite a nice guy (and he'd get some dosh) if he'd just do a deal with the artists whose work has been buried for so long.
As Dick says, he did it for Mick Tems. So why not for Nic Jones?
Very many people (including him) would become a lot happier than they are today.
Is there anything wrong with that?
Tyke, where are ya?


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,someguyonabike
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:26 PM

I just put this fabulous Watersons Mighty River Of Song [Box] [CD & DVD] up for auction at ebay current bid is only $7.50

ebay auction

I am willing to ship this Internationally. Please contact me before bidding and I will research the cost for you. Thank You!!

Contains 4 music CDs, a DVD of the acclaimed Travelling For A Living documentary, 52 page full color booklet - profusely illustrated with extensive notes and a full discography. Researched and compiled by David Suff. Booklet, CDs, DVD, box and large fold out discography are all in excellent condition. Imported

DVD "Travelling For A Living" the film about the The Watersons
   
[from the notes by Derrick Knight (script, direction, producer) in 1966]

Four young people huddle in the cold and discomfort of an old van as they travel, maybe hundreds of miles, to a singing engagement in a folk club, and back again to their home town of Hull. They are a group called The Watersons - Michael, Norma and Elaine Waterson, brother and two sisters, and their cousin John Harrison.

The three Watersons were orphaned in early life and brought up by a fiercely matriarchal grandmother who said they had to stick together. Even today the closeness of the family unit is maintained.

Despite the fact that two of them have married, they all live together in a single scruffy terraced house, whose centre is a common kitchen, always full of friends and noise. This close, cosy home life is in total contrast to their professional life. In the last two years the Watersons have become one of the most popular folk singing groups in the country, yet they are far removed from the fashionable exhibitionist folk singers.

This film is about the Watersons' world. It is about their lives - down to earth, vibrant, receptive and haunted by all kinds of influences from the past: their Irish tinker and farming ancestry, their grandmother's second-hand shop where a love of tradition grew up among horse brasses and sing-songs, the rich historical and trading association of the port of Hull. Above all it is about exciting old music, its source and its meaning today. In this film the Watersons are placed against the broader picture of the folk revival.



I am willing to ship this Internationally. Please contact me before bidding and I will research the cost for you. Thank You!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Effsee
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:36 PM

Oi! You gettoffa our thread!!


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,GUEST: Nigel Spencer
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM

Could I reply to George's red herring about home taping? There's loads of times I've made compilation tapes for friends and more recently compilation CDS - and guess what? They've gone out and bought albums by the artists concerned. There's a WORLD of difference between turning friends onto great music and systematically bootlegging other people's work (which despite ownership of the recordings, DB is doing when he releases royalty-free CDrs). George's argument - at best - is disengenious. Could I also add that I bought 'Bright Phoebus' on CD from a local record shop, thinking it was bonafide - as did the shopkeeper. It's only now I realise I was sold a CDr. I don't mind that. It's the dishonesty around the whole thing I can't stand - especially around royalties. When I buy a CD I hope the artist profits - and if not I want to know why not... DB's apologists ALL sound like hollow man. Maybe they should take a few minutes to genuinely reflect on their arguments? I'm not sure - for example - that citing the miner's strike is a reason to continue to rip off relatively impoverished folk artists 20 or more years down the line...

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM

As I read this thread I get more and more pissed off with this Tyke/George Clarke fellow. Could I just point out that his being a northerner does not somehow make his rubbish arguments more valid? Speaking as a northerner.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 08:13 PM

And if you're pissed off at somebody or anoter, you can't carry on a civil discussion, can you?
Stick to the facts of the discussion, and don't get involved in ad hominem discussions. I'd hate to have to take this topic off the table because the Brits can't seem to have a civil discussion of it.
I'm going to close this thread. If you want to continue the discussion, start another thread - and keep it civil.
-Joe Offer-


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