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BS: Auras and Chanting

Wolfgang 25 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM
Wolfgang 25 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM
Don Firth 22 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM
Ebbie 22 Apr 07 - 04:43 PM
Little Hawk 22 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM
Wolfgang 22 Apr 07 - 11:31 AM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM
Amos 18 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM
Bee 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 18 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM
katlaughing 17 Apr 07 - 11:18 PM
Amos 17 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM
Ferrara 17 Apr 07 - 09:54 PM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 05:00 PM
Captain Ginger 17 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 12:37 PM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM
Ebbie 17 Apr 07 - 12:22 PM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 07 - 12:20 PM
Amos 17 Apr 07 - 11:33 AM
beardedbruce 17 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM
Amos 17 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM
Mickey191 17 Apr 07 - 08:40 AM
*daylia* 17 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 16 Apr 07 - 02:20 PM
Little Hawk 16 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM
*daylia* 16 Apr 07 - 07:23 AM
Little Hawk 15 Apr 07 - 12:51 PM
Amos 15 Apr 07 - 01:17 AM
Little Hawk 14 Apr 07 - 11:28 PM
Donuel 14 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM
Mickey191 14 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM
*daylia* 14 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM
Donuel 14 Apr 07 - 04:06 AM
Partridge 14 Apr 07 - 03:50 AM
katlaughing 14 Apr 07 - 01:06 AM
Don Firth 14 Apr 07 - 12:46 AM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 11:40 PM
katlaughing 13 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM
dianavan 13 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM
bobad 13 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM
dianavan 13 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM
Captain Ginger 13 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM
Donuel 13 Apr 07 - 04:31 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM

Little Hawk's there can't possibly be anything real to it parody of skeptical thinking reminds me the story I have told in the Dissolving clouds thread. The man's immediate reaction when I said I guess he knew what the obvious alternative hypothesis was, was saying that the dissolving of clouds was real and not imagined.

Nothing of that kind was on my mind for I believed the effect to be real, but that is the gut reaction of some believers like Little Hawk. They immediately assume without any knowledge of the particular skeptical POV that the skeptics' reaction would be to discard the experience out of hand. Why should we? There's plenty of evidence for the perceptual (not: physical) reality of that effect and it is fairly well understood.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM

Now a bit longer post about auras and how our visual system makes them.

They are not "hallucinations" as Little Hawk wrongly claims skeptics say (and only shows by that he doesn't know what he's talking about in a very verbatim sense). Hallucinations come from the central visual system and are not based on peripheral input. They are usually not shared, so if one person has a hallucination the others around can not see it.

"Auras" are input based and a result from the first few stages of neural processing. They are real in one sense of the word: Everyone with an intact visual system and the right instruction how to look can see them. The input into the central visual system is real (completely different from a hallucination) but has no physical correspondence in the outside world.

How that? Our viasul system has a 2-D input on a curved surface and must make 3-D sense of the input. From a long line of evolution, some "clever" wirings of the neural circuitry enhance contrast (by lateral inhibition). That makes a lot of sense for it helps to split up the visual array into different objects. So, at the border between two object (or object and background) the visual system exaggerates the physical difference in brightness, colour etc.

Artists know that or are taught how to use it. An artist who pencil-draws a sun on white paper knows how to make the white paper look whiter on the spot where the sun is. Like our visual system, the good artist shows the world not as it is objectively but as it is perceived subjectively. The artist exaggerates, makes thing longer, shorter, darker, lighter, larger than they are in the physical world in order that what we perceive when looking at the artwork is close to our perception of reality. (That's what is missing in boring photographs BTW)

Back to the visual system. Contrast enhancement will make the immediate surround of a body look different than the rest of the background. Then something else comes into play too. We always have microsaccades (tiny eye movements). They are necessary for seeing. With a completely stabilised eye (curare does a good job, unless you forget artificial respiration), after very few seconds we see nothing at all, we become functionally blind (those who have made it describe it as a scaring experience). If something now moves we can see the thing that moves but nothing else. The reason is that with a stabilised eye the borders between objects always fall on the same bunch of neurons and they adapt quickly. All our senses are triggered by changes, our visual system too.

Third factor is adaptation. All cells adapt that is they do not "fire" at prolonged input as they did in the first half second (That's why alarm mostly go doo   dooo   dooo   dooo...; one doesn't adapt easily to on-off stimulation. Partial adaptation of course is what mostly happens unless there is completely white light. That is one subset of neurons fires less than before and the other neurons that are not adapted still can fire full speed. That leads to afterimages at first in the opposite colour, and if you look longer it can change the colour due to the differential recovery rate of different neurons.

Now we have all we need: (1) eye movements (2) contrast enhancement (3) adaptation and afterimages. If for instance a prophet gives a sermon on a mountain the lower seated listeners will see him with a clear sky as the background. If he is good at what he does, they will listen and watch like spellbound and they will not take their eyes off him. If you look at any dark figure before a bright background, the immediate surround will after some time look brighter than the rest of the sky. To all of the onlookers! The prophet now has a bright halo around his head.

Why don't we see that normally. Because we switch attention and gaze too quickly for these effects to be seen. But if someone (something captures our attention so that we keep our gaze for a minute or so, we can see the brightest colours around persons (and inanimate objects likewise) chnaging in time. It is fun. I used to do it in boring lectures with the prof.

So that's what skeptics think about "auras", and not Little Hawks parody of a skeptic.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM

Hey! Isn't folk music inextricably tied to the aural tradition?

Chanting, too!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 04:43 PM

Wow. Wolfgang sees auras. Who'd a thunk it. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

Oh. Well, that's a relief. Another thing I don't have to worry my head about any longer... ;-) Thanks for helping, Wolfgang.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:31 AM

Everyone can easily see "auras". They are a necessary byproduct of the normal visual process though if one does not pay attention to them one may not realise they are there. They are better seen in a relaxed and not thinking-straight state of mind. It is easy to explain where they come from. They are not hallucinations in the usual sense but they have no correspondence in the outside world.

As mostly, Little Hawk gets is completely wrong, for there is really no skeptic who knows what he's talking about who'd tell him that his experiences with auras not real. That would be utter nonsense. They are of course real in the same way as afterimages, moire patterns, apparent bending of straight lines at intersections etc. are real. Skeptics only point to a completely different interpretation.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM

Yes, Bee, I know what you mean about that. I have had myopia since about age 7 or 8, and I have certainlty seen that effect you describe when not wearing corrective lenses. The auras I have seen are quite a different matter, and I saw them while wearing my contact lenses.

I don't know what the auras are, although there are many books out suggesting different theories. I would think that they are an energetic field of some kind that permeates the body and projects outside of the body as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

Glaucoma, which is caused by slight discoloration of the lens over time, can cause one to see unidentified flying objects. But they don't look like aucers.   Other than that, there's hardly any difference.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

Little Hawk, I understand if one has had experiences, and interpreted them to the best of one's knowledge and ability, that it is annoying to have others doubt you. But (thurz allus a 'but') - if I hadn't gotten glasses when I was twelve I could now be claiming, quite truthfully, to see auras, because without my glasses, everything has a visible, glowing aura, of various colours according to the ambient light, colour of object, colours surrounding object, person's clothing, etc. Stars, without my glasses, are big shining objects with wide halos.

I am not suggesting you have an eye problem, just pointing out that the auras I see have a simple explanation - I'm nearsighted as a dormouse. There are frequently known physical explanations for psychic phenomena.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM

Fair enough, Ian. I apologize for my intemperate remarks to you. I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this kind of thing, having actually seen auras. I get angry at the utter assurance of skeptics who can just dismiss any person's experiences in the blink of a neuron or label it a "hallucination"....just because they are so sure that if they don't believe in something themselves, well then, there can't possibly be anything real to it!

Such faith is just as blind as the faith of a religious fundamentalist who thinks his version of God is beyond question.

In either case the belief is based not on experience but on hearsay, assumption, mental habit...and the denial of the experiences of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM

Whooooaaaa, LH! Why was I attracted to this thread? Because it is interesting. I find the overlap between thought, faith (of all descriptions, and we all have faith of some description) and action interesting. I find paranormal claims interesting, though I don't believe in them (and they are something to believe in, not something to believe - vital difference). I think debate and discussion is vital to human well being. I wasn't inviting any abuse from anyone - I didn't give any - and do not think it was called for. I was simply saying the same as Bee in the 17 Apr 07 05:00 PM posting above. Resorting to abuse simply shows either a lack of substantial argument, bad manners, or both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:18 PM

Well said, Ferrara. Common sense must prevail, eh?

The family doctor I was going to, two years ago last November, told me I had bronchitis. I trusted him and wound up in the ER a month later with what was and had been congestive heart failure. I got a new doctor and a new heart valve. I would do the same, get a new practitioner, if I went to an alternative healer who wasn't up to snuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM

Beautifully writ, Rita.

One of the reasons there is such a collision between the physics-based worldview and the world-view that includes or is based on spiritual observations and experiences is that their plans of reasoning are quite different. Traditional science on which most physics is based or wants to be based involves collecting data, by measuring, observing, experimnenting, and getting a lot of it correlated in some way, and deducing from that data some pattern or principle, like Ohm's law. It took a lot of fooling around with circuits before thoe relationships of resistance, current and voltage potential began to stand out. Today, any fifth grader can recite them (in some schools, anyway).

The philosophic method intuits the general case and then induces what data would support it, and looks to see if such data exist. The problem wi th this approach, which has its merits, is that you can go awry easily. I have heard the story that about the time the eighth planet was discovered by Piazi, Hegel had published a philosophical dissertation proving that there would never be more than seven because seven was a perfect number. I think the story is bogus, but it is a good metaphor for the slippery slope of induction when it meets the lasticity of the mind.

Despite this flow, not all inductive thought is treacherous, and it can lead the thinker thereof to data which was not otherwise suspected. The risk is in extrapolating from a principle with such conviction that you posit some datum and then assert it to be so. The plasticity of the mind is such that any dataum can start appearing to be true f asserted with enough energy, and th emind will filter out experiences that don't match up to the cherished belief. All kinds of idiocy can be attributed to this flaw, but that does NOT mean that all inductive logic is idiotic.

That's all I want to say about this interesting relationship at present.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Ferrara
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:54 PM

There are charlatans and incompetents in physics, in metaphysics, in conventional medicine and in alternative medicine. Unfortunately metaphysics and alternative medicine do offer great opportunities for charlatans. The important thing, especially with medical choices, is to think for yourself.

I once saved myself from possibly drastic problems by thinking for myself. A resident at Johns Hopkins looked at the results of an allergy test for an extremely toxic IV drip, ignored my protests that the test showed I was allergic, and started to OK the IV. I finally told her to Get somebody in there who knew what they were doing! She did. I didn't get the IV. It's so dangerous it can only be given once in one's lifetime.

You have to pay attention. You have to use your mind. Same as with anything else in life. How much energy you put into it depends on how important it is. In the case of Mickey191's chiropractor, she wasn't urging anything on him, she just made a remark about what she believed she saw. Mickey asked about it here but didn't put a whole lot of weight on it one way or the other. That makes sense to me.

On the other hand, refusing conventional treatments and risking your life without seeing some really good evidence that the alternative treatment is better, doesn't make sense to me. But in any medical matter, nowadays, conventional or otherwise, people have to check out what the doctor is telling them if they can.

Some of my best progress since my heart transplant has come from taking nutritional supplements. The doctors look at me, tell me I'm doing splendidly, then say, "But you've got to stop taking all those over-the-counter medications." Right. If I take a supplement and a longstanding problem goes away, then it comes back when I drop the supplement, I know what I'm going to do.

Bad doctors happen. So do bad alternative practitioners. So do wonderful, competent people. My own chiropractor may see auras, for all I know, especially considering some of the other methods she uses. That's fine. I don't need my aura read. Suppose it's really ugly? But she has made a huge difference in the amount of foot, back, neck and shoulder pain, numbness, pinched nerve problems, etc that I use to experience.

A lot of these questions are unanswerable. (Like, Can you have more than one spirit guide? And what or who are they, if they are there at all?) There are possible answers that seem plausible if your mind works that way.

A lot of the answers above seem to be contradictory, but that may just be because our minds are limited. My own feeling is, pick the one that works for you, they're all models of how things work. But I don't think any of them can be more than a best guess. Even the "purely material" explanations.

As for me I suspect it's possible that people who love you and have died, or maybe even loved you in earlier lifetimes, may sometimes be guiding or protecting you. I don't believe these ideas in the sense of assuming they're true. I don't even believe that people exist somehow after they die although I strongly suspect they do, based on both what I've read and what I've experienced. I believe these things are possible, whereas other people such as bb or my spouse believe they are not possible and that any matter-based or conventional explanation is preferable.

Rita F


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:00 PM

Little Hawk, a constructive approach would include testing alternative methods in an approved scientific manner, in the same ways that drugs and surgerical procedures and other medical therapies are tested. As things are, no alternative therapies, be they herbal, physical, or mental, are adequately tested, and sometimes, when the medical establishment does attempt to test them, they are determined to be useless or dangerous - or both.

I'm well aware that many drugs are developed from herbs and bark and roots, but in most cases, the key is developed, with toxins removed and dosages regularised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM

If I had a therapist who started talking about auras, I'd stop using them pronto. I like my practitioners to be grounded in reason, and not prey to any passing mumbo-jumbo.
I have also known someone who died as a result of such idiocy - she was morbidly obese, but chose to take the advice of a reflexologist rather than a doctor. She developed diabetes, went blind and eventually died - and all the while the reflexologist was taking her money and telling her not to go down the conventional route as it would spoil her balance or some such crap.
My view is that you are more likely to meet a charlatan in the alternative field than in a field run by a professional body with professional standards. I came across a 'reiki healer' a while back who was offering to heal a friend's horse posthumously - sending remote healing back in time to ensure that the beast didn't suffer when it died. I'm sorry, but such stuff makes me choke on my cornflakes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM

It wasn't BB I was speaking to in those remarks, it was Ian (cookieless).

I agree that some people in alternative fields are charlatans, and they cause problems for people. Others are not. Some conventional M.D.s also cause problems for people, while others don't. I think we would do better to take a constructive attitude to different fields of inquiry (both conventional and unconventional), than just doing knee-jerk attacks on anything we deem "unusual" whenever it comes up...and that's what I see the same people doing here again and again.

The reference to "ilk" is an old in-joke on this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:37 PM

oops, I guess that was Ian I was defending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM

Speaking as a pestiferous 'ilk', Little Hawk, and as one who disagrees with bb on many things, I'm going to defend him here. I've already mentioned the friend who died as a result of 'alternate' therapies, and bb may have some similar events in his past. I've also lost a good friend to a cult that used a form of Indian meditation to snare people, and has kept a good many people paying up for thirty five years, ruining more than a few lives in the process. Old fashioned Spiritualism caused a lot of unnecessary grief to people in its time, and I'm sorry, but some of the people who claim to see auras and spirit guides et al are charlatans, and it is a good thing that there are people who care enough to speak up and demand at least a mote of reasonable evidence for extraordinary claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM

Who knows? There could be any number of reasons for that. Some people probably don't have an eye doctor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:22 PM

Off the main subject but I want to interject that I can't imagine why a person would go FIRST to one's doctor when one noticed a problem with an eye.

An optometrist would examine the eye and if he or she found underlying causes - like hypertension or diabetes or whatever - that doctor would send you to your own doctor for treatment.

Why would a person NOT go first to an eye doctor? Are things that different in Canada?


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:20 PM

Anyone can make conclusions about Physics, BB, because physics is based on scientific observation and analysis. I agree with you that no one can make conclusions about metaphysics, however.

Ian, you wrote: "would your chiropractor be willing to have her aura sighting put to real rigour and analysis? Would another claimer to seeing auras be able to see precisely the same thing without prior contact with her? Could her claims be subject to a double blind trial? Or would any such question of medical efficacy be met with vague excuses that such things wouldn't apply because blah mumbo jumbo?"

Ian, who really GIVES a shit? Who would bother? How does the chiropractor's personal perception of auras cause a problem in your life? Whom does it threaten? Why the f*ck do you even CARE about it, unless your inner desire is to force or browbeat every other person in the world into only believing the things you happen to believe about reality?

It is the fact that skeptics such as yourself are consistently attracted to subjects like this like flies to road kill, and arrive full of enthusiasm to dump their scorn upon such subjects that pisses me off. That's why I object to your attitude. You know nothing about it, you have no personal experience, yet you wish to dominate other people with your version of reality because that satisfies some inner need you have to be "right" and make other people "wrong". Face it, buddy, you don't KNOW if there are auras, and you probably never will, and there's not a damn thing you will ever be able to do about it.

You're a pest, frankly. And so are the others of your "ilk" (to use a word that's popular on this forum).


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:33 AM

Well..actually, BB...there is a boundary layer between the two, which is reflected in the truism that all we know of physics is derived from our observations (and the mathematical manipulations thereof).

If perception itself is a metaphysical phenomenon in the final analysis, as some belileve it is (not just stimulus response changes, but the actual perception at the end of the chain), why then, metaphysics may have something to say about physics. And phsyics starts digging into regions of metaphysical interest all the time, for example, when it posits that observation modifies outcome. Or that a singularity is the end point of Time. So I don't think the boundary between the two areas is as impermeable as all that! :D

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM

" It is possible that there really ar emore thigns under heaven and earth than in all of natural philosophy, even if the field is also cluttered with nightmares and weirdos."

There is Physics, and there is Metaphysics.

Physics deals with matter, energy, and the interaction of the two.

Metaphysics deals with all else.


Physics can no more make conclusions about Metaphysics than Metaphysics can make conclusions about Physics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

Ian, I don't think LH was trying to shut down the dialogue. But he was raising a point about many discussions that have occurred in this forum when spiritual issues come up. In those discussions it is not unusual to see material certainty being used as a standard to reject or invalidate extra-material perceptions. "I'm a realist", "prove it scientifically", "no objective evidence" and similar assertions are brought to bear.

This is all well and good except that such claims are being borrowed from a different universe of discourse grounded in meat-bound physical experience. It would seem to me to be obvious that reports of non-physical perceptions are not going to be measurable or frame-able by the purely material standards of physical science, even if they can be rendered consistent with some intellectual standards of scientific thinking. The two are very different. The latter has to do with how oneimposes standards of consistency, reasonable coherence, and methods of evaluation on a set of data. The former involves means of testig the phsyical universe to reveal its workings.

There is a whole ocean of data about spiritual stuff in the human library, ranging from propositions that are testable in some ways to extreme assertions about entities and their divine families and mythic adventures. Some of it is reasonable and consistent, and some of it is as inexpllicable as daytime television.

Anyway, I would suggest you might meander through some of the earlier htreads on related topics and revisit some of these arguments from the past before you come down too heavily on the "meat measures matter most" school of thought in such discussions. It is possible that there really ar emore thigns under heaven and earth than in all of natural philosophy, even if the field is also cluttered with nightmares and weirdos.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM

Mickey, I don't think there's all that many 'believers' here, just that many who think it's nonsense (more sensitive than me, perhaps)haven't commented, as for the most part such ideas cause little harm to anyone, except when ill individuals fail to get proper care. Like you, I don't think I'm in a crowd while sittin' by myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:40 AM

Guest,Ian sans cookies wrote:
The implication here is that, met with mumbo jumbo, intelligent and questioning people "fear" because they "do not understand". Could it not just be that they do understand because they recognise mumbo jumbo?

After reading all the interesting posts - I'm truly surprised at the number of people who believe in spirit guides and other amorphous beings. Not putting anyone down for this. I have no fear of things I do not understand. How can I fear something if I give it no credence? I'm just too pragmatic to believe. I'm confident that if you invite me for a cup of tea-I'm coming alone!

AS for my Chiropractor, funny-the subject did not come up again. I've kept 5 app'ts. since this subject was raised and it's been strictly business. I didn't react in a negative way when the subject was broached,I was surprised-but did not even show that. She mentioned a book that she wanted me to read-I said fine. Perhaps she expected me to mention it again. I'm there to get treatment and for no other reason.    Thanks Folks for your views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM

Couple weeks ago, the fireplace repairman found and fixed a fault in my thermostat that made turning the thing on a bit of a fix. Took him 30 seconds, and cost me nothing. He explained that often repairman don't realize this problem is a simple fix inside the thermostat itself, and recommend expensive replacement parts or a whole new fireplace itself instead. Thanking him, I added "Well I guess it's better than having a doctor make that kind of mistake! like sorry sir, you need a whole new heart! ... when all you really need is to stop eating a certain food or something"

His eyes widened and he stared at me for a moment, then said "you know I can't believe you just said that .... that's almost EXACTLY what happened to me!"   I could tell the poor guy was just itching to tell his story, so I settled back with a nice hot cuppa and lent
him my ears.

ANd what a story it was. Apparently a few years ago he;d started noticing a 'hole' in his vision, in one eye. Went to the doctor, got sent to various specialist, and underwent a whole litany of neurological tests. Months later, they told him he had Multiple Sclerosis. Devastated, he underwent another couple years of Cat scans, MRI imaging, various tests etc from various specialists, but never really had the diagnosis confirmed. Regardless, the neurologist started putting together a drug treatment program for him to combat the alleged MS, and the poor guy began another ordeal -- deciding whether or not to begin a dangerous and very expensive drug treatment which was not covered by insurance.

He'd told a customer about it, and the customer recommended he go see a simple eye doctor first. Something which had never been done yet!   After a few months of waiting for a referral, he finally got an appt with an optometrist, who did testing and told him, finally, that it was not MS at all but a simple tear in the retina which widened at certain times of the year (in spring, when the light changes) and when he was under a lot of stress. WOW!!!   And here he'd spend years stressed out to the max over being told he had MS, running to various specialists, almost started a drug program that would have costed thousands a year and had many undesirable side effects!! The poor guy was almost in tears by the time he finished, and so was I.

ANd does he have a chance of a snowflake in hell of suing these well lettered well appointed and extremely well-heeled medical specialists for their misdiagnosis and all the pain, suffering, time, travel and energy and money he wasted over it, for years?   

NOtta!

I've watched many many people get sicker and die while undergoing standard Western medical treatment for various illnesses and injuries. Just wanted to point this out, in the interests of maintaining a balanced perspective in this discussion.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:20 PM

Mickey191, would your chiropractor be willing to have her aura sighting put to real rigour and analysis? Would another claimer to seeing auras be able to see precisely the same thing without prior contact with her? Could her claims be subject to a double blind trial? Or would any such question of medical efficacy be met with vague excuses that such things wouldn't apply because blah mumbo jumbo?

3refs, the film "What The Bleep Do We Know?", though entertaining and containing some very basic science, was full of half-truths and covered things that, if the *rest* of the information were given about certain people's claims, would give a very different slant and make some people seem just as silly as they are. For example, remember the miscroscopic water patterns that supposedly formed naturally in containers, either forming horrible patterns with horrible words stuck on the containers or forming beautiful patterns with beautiful words stuck on the containers? Whhhaaaa? So water can read English backwards?! So where are the eyes and brain of water? Did you know that same 'scientist' (ha ha) claimed that water doesn't bubble and boil because of heat reaction but because it is angry?!

Little Hawk, your claim that "most people fear what they do not understand" may or may not be true. But the claim is misused if used to halt intelligent analysis. The implication here is that, met with mumbo jumbo, intelligent and questioning people "fear" because they "do not understand". Could it not just be that they do understand because they recognise mumbo jumbo?

"Whenever an esoteric or unusual subject like this one comes up in a thread, you can be guaranteed to hear their predictable responses...which will be to deny, scoff, ridicule, warn of dire dangers, etc..." Same as above. This claim is a way of ending debate, not encouraging it; of seeking to maintain claims without analysis.

Bee, you have my deepest sympathy for what happened to your friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

I heard that was a good book too, but I never read it. I did read the blurb on the back cover of it once, though. I was joking around with a couple of friends. It said on the back cover of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"....."You will NOT BE ABLE TO PUT THIS BOOK DOWN!" I read that part and the rest of the blurb out loud, in a very dramatic voice (like the guy who does the voiceover on movie trailers). I then said, "Observe. I am putting this book down." And I did so. And we all laughed.

You and I seem to have the same resistance to going along with the crowd, Daylia... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:23 AM

Donuel, back in the 70's everyone read that book it seems -everyone except me, that is. Following the crowd never appealed much. But it comes up so often in discussion, even decades later, that maybe someday I'll pick it up in a used bookstore, and enlighten myself.

Thanks for explaining. Can't imagine being overtaken by a homicidal deicidal frenzy if I saw the Buddha, or Jesus or an Angel or Whoever standing on the side of the road. But then again I'm nowhere near 'enlightenment'. (yet :-) Or maybe, I'm just not reading between the lines deeply enough... yet .... hmmm ... *scratch scratch scratch*...

Mickey, I don't think having more than one guide means you have more problems than the average person.   Having a guide or not is a personal choice, even if that choice is not made consciously. People vary in how much they want or will accept help. Some like to go it alone, others wouldn't dream of going into uncharted territory without a whole retinue of companions. Nothing is forced on us.

There is no guarantee that presentations from spirits are either good or fully knowing. They can be just as blindly reactive as the conclusions of the most degraded of humans -

this is very true, Amos. It is most essential to follow ones own responses, common sense and gut feelings in these matters. The physical body cannot lie (thank god!), so pay very close attention to physical/emotional/mental cues. We can attract and 'host' all manner of unwholesome influences along the way too; not 'guides' at all but more like parasites who take their toll on our energy, physical health, happiness, relationships etc. They can't latch onto anyone without an invitation/permission though, so, as the wise ones have said for millenia, the best defence is to

KNOW THYSELF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:51 PM

Well, yeah. Definitely. But there may always be someone around (corporeal or otherwise) who can provide some useful input, because there is always someone around who is more experienced and knows more than you do, right?

You just have to have good judgement about who that someone is at any given time. Meaning...as you say, Amos..."Trust your own keen sense of truth first." I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:17 AM

There is no guarantee that presentations from spirits are either good or fully knowing. They can be just as blindly reactive as the conclusions of the most degraded of humans -- Dick Cheney, for example. The only resource one has for decoding the information provided by the living OR the disincarnate is one's own sense of truth and reason. Trust your own keen sense of truth first.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:28 PM

"Would it be correct to assume if there is more then one, that that person has multiple problems which one S.G. couldn't handle?"

When you're going through University and seeking to graduate, you normally get help from more than one instructor in order to complete your courses. As below, so above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

daylia, there is a book Zen and the art of motorcycling in which there is a phrase

If you see buhdda on the side of the road, kill him.

Although shocking at first glace there is a meaning here which empowers self.

I have never used the word sacrifice to mean "make holy"


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

Daylia, Should one assume that the spirit guide is present for our good? Would it be correct to assume if there is more then one, that that person has multiple problems which one S.G. couldn't handle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM

LIttle Hawk, I see that white steamy stuff rising off me too, more so recently and particularly when I'm practicing Huna (gathering energy for healing work). My best guess? I think its chi! (which is, of course, what an aura is built of as well)

Yes the light I see is a white light. Often it is only a half inch layer.

Yes, usually it's about a half inch wide but sometimes much larger, especially around trees, and when I'm VERY sick or weak. I get glimpses of colour too, but this is rare for me.



If you see a spirit guide or bhudda - sacrifice them at once.

hmmmmm    let's see    Sacrifice = to make sacred. Not sure what you mean, Donuel.

Here's a little more of what I've read, been told or discovered to date re re spirit guides. (Please note: I'm not claiming any of this is the truth, just presenting it here as food for thought)

* we can have one, two, four or even more guides at any given time, but everyone has at least one

* we agree with them, before we're born, to work together for specific purposes during this earthwalk

* they can be people we've known in other incarnations, or people we've known from this one who've passed on, or not 'people' at all, but animals or other Nature spirits

* they change over the course of a lifetime, according to needs ie the guide who helped a child deal with bereavement might not be the same one who assists her later with pregnancy and childbirth, dealing with a lawsuit or writing her final exams at university;

* between incarnations, we can choose to assist incarnate souls as spirit guides ourselves

* I've even heard that some guides are aspects or portions or fragments (??) of our own souls, from previous incarnations    *scratches head ... scratch scratch scratch* .... oooooo, haven't quite figured that one out yet .... but it's real strange, therefore I like it!   

:-)    daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 04:06 AM

If you see a spirit guide or bhudda - sacrifice them at once.

The whole idea is that you can empower yourself AND use modern science and tools to heal.


The worst part of new age hypesters are the shysters who essentially keep charging you to use "self hypnosos"
Its SELF hynosis for gods sake 8*)

kinda like religion charging a masturbation fee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Partridge
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:50 AM

Nature or by design?

I would say that nature wins hands down.
The spiders natural ability has been copied by many designers

Pat x


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:06 AM

Ain't Nature grand, LH?:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:46 AM

Spiders? Programming.

But not by Microsoft. You can tell, because it seems to work quite well.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:40 PM

Yeah, that's what's so cool about it. No one has to teach them how.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM

Spiders have no problem just doing what comes naturally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM

You take yourself too seriously, Captain Ginger, that's what I think... ;-)

I was just being a bit poetic to say that spiders were "designers". It was a metaphor, as Dianavan suggests, not a statement of my literal belief. I have no idea how a garden spider keeps track of the geometric structure of its web while it's building it, but I guess most people would just say it's "instinct". "Instinct" is a great little catchall word that people use to describe any creature's behaviour which they are completely unable to come up with any other explanation for...

It's a way of saying "I don't know", but still sounding like you do know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM

oops - I thought he was referring to my post.

Regardless - This is not a thread that should be understood in an empirical sense. Nor is a spider's 'ability' to design anything more than a metaphor. At least I didn't take it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: bobad
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM

"Nobody said they were designers. "

.......................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM

Yes, some types of spiders are wonderful designers.

.......................................................................

"You see what you want to see
You hear what you want to hear"

The Rockman who dwells in the Pointed Forest


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM

Spiders are a symbol of design. Nobody said they were designers. I guess you don't understand the meaning of symbolism, Captain Ginger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM

Spiders aren't designers - any more than snowflakes or sunflower heads are designers. It is sad that the consciousness that makes us so magnificently human also has the ability to make us appear to be utter fools.
We really do live in an age where some people will believe in anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:31 PM

I have watched aphids who spin a 5 inch snow crystal shaped craft, fly them around. If you try to grab them they are electrostaicly charged to repel your grasp.

The most remarkable thing I have ever seen indoors were 2 globes of light that had the ability to pass through walls unaffected and keep going.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM

Yes, some types of spiders are wonderful designers. I once spent an entire hour watching a garden spider build a big beautiful ornate web. She laid down the main anchor lines first, casting herself out into space and swinging to a new position like Tarzan on the grapevine. She then did the concentric circles, section by section, in the most meticulous and beautiful way, and finally finished by building a little central station to perch on...then she rested there. It remains one of the most amazing things I have ever witnessed. I liked spiders a lot when I was a kid, so I spent much time observing them.

The creatures that scared me a lot were wasps, hornets, large aggressive dogs, and bears.


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