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BS: Auras and Chanting

Mickey191 12 Apr 07 - 01:18 AM
Amos 12 Apr 07 - 01:24 AM
Joe Offer 12 Apr 07 - 04:19 AM
*daylia* 12 Apr 07 - 07:04 AM
3refs 12 Apr 07 - 07:34 AM
Amos 12 Apr 07 - 09:34 AM
katlaughing 12 Apr 07 - 09:35 AM
Jean(eanjay) 12 Apr 07 - 09:44 AM
bobad 12 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM
Bee 12 Apr 07 - 11:27 AM
Mickey191 12 Apr 07 - 11:45 AM
Alice 12 Apr 07 - 11:58 AM
Alice 12 Apr 07 - 12:06 PM
Little Hawk 12 Apr 07 - 01:14 PM
Amos 12 Apr 07 - 01:28 PM
katlaughing 12 Apr 07 - 01:36 PM
beardedbruce 12 Apr 07 - 01:50 PM
Partridge 12 Apr 07 - 02:01 PM
frogprince 12 Apr 07 - 02:11 PM
Ebbie 12 Apr 07 - 02:15 PM
Don Firth 12 Apr 07 - 02:55 PM
Little Hawk 12 Apr 07 - 04:49 PM
katlaughing 12 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM
dianavan 12 Apr 07 - 05:59 PM
katlaughing 12 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM
Little Hawk 12 Apr 07 - 09:18 PM
Mickey191 12 Apr 07 - 09:58 PM
Joe Offer 12 Apr 07 - 11:22 PM
Mickey191 12 Apr 07 - 11:30 PM
dianavan 13 Apr 07 - 02:32 AM
*daylia* 13 Apr 07 - 07:55 AM
*daylia* 13 Apr 07 - 08:10 AM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 08:14 AM
Donuel 13 Apr 07 - 08:20 AM
*daylia* 13 Apr 07 - 08:31 AM
dianavan 13 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM
Donuel 13 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 03:39 PM
dianavan 13 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM
Donuel 13 Apr 07 - 04:31 PM
Captain Ginger 13 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM
dianavan 13 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM
bobad 13 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM
dianavan 13 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM
katlaughing 13 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM
Little Hawk 13 Apr 07 - 11:40 PM
Don Firth 14 Apr 07 - 12:46 AM
katlaughing 14 Apr 07 - 01:06 AM
Partridge 14 Apr 07 - 03:50 AM
Donuel 14 Apr 07 - 04:06 AM
*daylia* 14 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM
Mickey191 14 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM
Donuel 14 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM
Little Hawk 14 Apr 07 - 11:28 PM
Amos 15 Apr 07 - 01:17 AM
Little Hawk 15 Apr 07 - 12:51 PM
*daylia* 16 Apr 07 - 07:23 AM
Little Hawk 16 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 16 Apr 07 - 02:20 PM
*daylia* 17 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM
Mickey191 17 Apr 07 - 08:40 AM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM
Amos 17 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM
beardedbruce 17 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM
Amos 17 Apr 07 - 11:33 AM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 07 - 12:20 PM
Ebbie 17 Apr 07 - 12:22 PM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 12:37 PM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM
Captain Ginger 17 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM
Bee 17 Apr 07 - 05:00 PM
Ferrara 17 Apr 07 - 09:54 PM
Amos 17 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM
katlaughing 17 Apr 07 - 11:18 PM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 18 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM
Bee 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM
Amos 18 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM
Wolfgang 22 Apr 07 - 11:31 AM
Little Hawk 22 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM
Ebbie 22 Apr 07 - 04:43 PM
Don Firth 22 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM
Wolfgang 25 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM
Wolfgang 25 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM
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Subject: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:18 AM

Been going to Female Chiropractor on & off for 3 yrs. Last year she straightened me out when an orthopedist & a hospital failed. So I know she has abilities. After 10 months feeling fine-my problem came back. Went to her-in my 3rd wk. of treatment she started speaking quietly as she started adjust. I asked are you chanting or praying?

Chanting was the answer. As I'm ready to leave--she volunteered that in my aura- were two men. She said they always accompany me.

Anyone have thoughts on this subject?


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:24 AM

I would ask them to find their own bodies and leave mine to me. Unless you enjoy the company. Or, it is possible these two men were just her projection or wishful thinking, too. So I guess you need to sort it out for yourself. All I know is there's a significant degree of danger in taking on board the psychic judgements of others, as it can induce you to put things in place, in a spirit of cooperationn, that are not true for you but are just suggestions provided from others. THis isn't always bad, as the placebo effect shows, but it can get very messy and spinny if not recognized. My two cents, FWIW.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 04:19 AM

I've been married to a female chiropractor for five years, and she does all that what I call woo-woo stuff. Somehow, it does seem to have a very good effect on an awful lot of people, so who am I to argue with success?

Still, I don't really believe in it. She was checking out pills with her pendulum this evening, and I decided I'd better not comment.
I went to a great house concert a couple weeks ago - Mark Graham, who wrote I Can See Your Aura, And It's Ugly. My wife loves that song. I think if you can find a woo-woo woman who can laugh at herself, that's a good combination.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:04 AM

If my chiropractor started telling me about my aura during a treatment, I'd be changing chiropractors. I go to the chiropractor to treat my physical body, not for psychic readings. Prayers are most welcome anytime, by me, but unsolicited psychic 'snooping' is disrespectful and invasive.

At any rate, if you're concerned about it you might want to ask her what the men in your aura look like. If they glow with warm golden light and have wings, you're in good company. Dark and cold with glowing red eyes, horns and a tail, better look out! And even if they have wings, or (alternatively) pitchforks, or nothing out of the ordinary whatsoever if you don't want them cuddling up to you so close all the time, just tell them to leave. And hopefully, they will!   IF they're stubborn you'll need to call in the Big Guns, but that's a subject for another thread so ... take care now, and all the best, Mickey!


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: 3refs
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:34 AM

If one was to watch "What The Bleep Do We Know?" I would suggest that that ya might just have a different perspective on physical healing and the mind.
This movie had such a impact on me that the phrase "Oh, it was just a thought!" has a whole new meaning!


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:34 AM

...Daylia's approach is interesting, but let me point out that asking the chiropractor what your aura-companions look like implies you have already gone into agreement with their being there. This is a choice you must make consciously, not something you should take on board just to be cooperative.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:35 AM

I've never heard of an aura described as having other people in it. Generally, it is a nimbus around one which can be different colours. IF there are two men, I would refer to them as "spirit guides" or some other way other than "aura."

Nothing wrong with it, as long as they are not her projection, as Amos pointed out, or as long as they are not negative. I know of a friend who has three women who are her "protectors."

Reiki practioners regularly *read* people's auras during treatment.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:44 AM

I've always thought of them as spirit guides. My great great aunty was a spiritualist and she talked about spirit guides. It's something I quite like the idea of and at times I have felt that I must have something helping me along but I've never had any indication as to what or who it might be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM

"Kiss my aura...dora...
M-m-m...its real angora
Would yall like some more-a?
Right here on the flora?
An how bout you, fauna?
Ywanna?"

Gospel of Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:27 AM

Good ol' Frank - I miss him.

I am the anti-Woo. I don't necessarily think people like the chiropracter are lying, but I think they delude themselves in various ways. A lot of modern Western New Age Woo (IMO) is a rehashing of mangled Eastern and Shamanistic philosophies and practices, mixed in with some odd Christian mythologies and old fashioned Spiritualism and a little junk 'science', so we get angels, spirit guides, auras, channelling, distance healing, laying on of hands, homeopathy, Reiki, and all of that, none of which, again in my opinion and from my observation, is in any sense real or effective (meaning 'having an effect on the physical').

I've seen too many friends get caught up in these practices, and it is only by luck and the healing abilities of the human body that they don't suffer serious harm. In some cases, they do suffer serious harm in not getting proper treatment for real life threatening conditions. Having seen a young woman die of breast cancer after refusing any medical treatment in favour of homeopathy, Reiki and other 'natural' remedies, I am no longer able to politely say 'Oh how nice' to anyone who favours such practices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:45 AM

Joe, think you're lucky to have the lady for your own personal Dr. Does she adjust you?

Daylia, thanks for good wishes & I've met the pitchfork guy on this plane-gave him the pointed boot out.

Amos, As always you make perfect sense. But--I did engage her further.She does readings whilst contacting the dead. I said "Like John Edward?" "Yes, but my friends say I'm better then J.E." No ego problem there! I'm wondering if she has a profitable side business. Mistress of seances?

Kat, I may have stated that wrongly. She sees my aura & then spoke of the 2 men. I just put them all together.

Bee, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. I'm too level headed to be swept up in this "stuff." Though
I've met more then my share of Medical Drs. who've mistreated,misdiagnosed & even lied about their fees.
I seem to attract them. The degrees on the wall mean nothing until you've had interactions. Lost one breast because of misdiagnoses. That bastard is still out there practicing.   

I wonder if these two aliens accompany me to the bathroom?


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:58 AM

Get out of her care and don't go back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:06 PM

Mickey, have you gone to a physical therapist for your back?
After having a major injury this winter and then being sent to a physical therapist by the doctor, I have a great respect for what PTs do. A good PT will help to strengthen whatever needs to be stronger in order to help your back be healthy.
Good Luck.
Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:14 PM

Yeah. Auras are real. They appear to be an energetic field of some sort that interacts with the nervous system and the body. Some people can see them and work with them. Most do not see them under normal conditions. I have a very limited ability to see auras under the right lighting conditions (dimly lit) and if I'm quite relaxed and not thinking about anything much at the time. (in other words, the nervous mind gets in the way, at least for me)

When I do see them, it's not by any plan or purpose on my part...it just happens, that's all.

Chanting is a good way of relaxing the mind, which can be useful in meditation and probably in a number of other activities. It's a focusing and relaxing tool. Some know how to use it to considerable effect. Most do not. I have a very limited awareness of how to use it, but I've seen good effects from using it.

I figure your chiropractor is probably doing some reasonably good stuff there.

I will add that women, on the average, are far more likely to be interested in such matters in the first place and to develop some facility with them than most men are. Why that is, I do not know, but I've heard that women, on average, are more spiritually developed than men... (and I don't doubt it, frankly)

There are some men who are exceptions to that, however. And some women too, of course. I have personally known some women who were probably not much more spiritually adept than your average toadstool. ;-)

I will also say this: most people fear what they do not understand. Whenever an esoteric or unusual subject like this one comes up in a thread, you can be guaranteed to hear their predictable responses...which will be to deny, scoff, ridicule, warn of dire dangers, etc...

The only thing that matters about this chiropractor is this: do the treatments she gives you work? Is she an effective chiropractor? If so, you have no problem. Her willingness to talk to you and explain something a little unusual she is doing is a sign of her openness and honesty. She evidently trusts you enough to feel safe being honest and open. It's up to you if you want to betray that trust by reacting fearfully to something you are unfamiliar with, which is what several people here are advising you to do. If so, you would be taking on their fears...


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:28 PM

I'm all for anti-Woo, but I have seen Reiki treatments accelerate healing and dispel pain from injury very dramatically. While not wanting to assert the existence of things which when looked for are not found to exist, I would simply say that sometimes existence is in the eye of the beholder, and there are more things in heaven and earth than in many of our philosophies.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:36 PM

Well-put, LH and Amos.

There has to be balance in all things, whether alopathic medicine or alternative. That's one reason why I only go to osteopaths - they combine the best of both, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:50 PM

"I have a very limited ability to see auras under the right lighting conditions (dimly lit) and if I'm quite relaxed and not thinking about anything much at the time. (in other words, the nervous mind gets in the way, at least for me)"


"I will add that women, on the average, are far more likely to be interested in such matters in the first place and to develop some facility with them than most men are. Why that is, I do not know, but I've heard that women, on average, are more spiritually developed than men... (and I don't doubt it, frankly)"

Be careful. There are those on Mudcat who would have you serve jail time for your anti-woman bias, as shown in this set of statements.

Looks like you are saying that thinking interferes with seeing auras, and women are better than men at seeing auras... So women must not think as much???

For shame, for shame...


No explaining- just apologize and slink off.


8-{E


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Partridge
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:01 PM

Only went to an osteopath once - a miracle.

It was last year at whitby folk festival, I was in terrible pain and he made it go away.

Pat xxx


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:11 PM

Spent at least one summer weekend with my wife at a resort which happened to be hosting a "gathering of all paths". One guy set up shop to "photograph people's auras". Funny thing, but all the auras were in just the same shades as his multi-hued backdrop. Now, just because all it would take to get the effects he did would be something at the technical level of a little hair spray on one element of his lens, doesn't mean I would ever suspect him of being a charlatan...   (And no, I don't think my opinion about him proves anything one way or the other about auras)


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:15 PM

*G*, bb.

My notion is that women- by and large - are more intent on understanding the world of nuance, intuition and nebulousness(?), and that men - by and large - focus more on what makes physical things combine and work. Given that, I think that a healthy blend of the two would make one awesome human being.

I have consciously seen an aura very few times, but I have an older brother who says that while growing up he assumed that everybody had them and everybody saw them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:55 PM

My spine is like ninety miles of bad railroad track. I contracted polio at the age of two, and one of the frequent aftereffects of polio is scoliosis—spinal curvature. This can cause some fairly severe problems later on, because if you don't keep on top of it, it can get worse, even to the extent of crowding internal organs (such as lungs and heart) with detrimental results.

Fortunately, my father was a chiropractor. I've had chiropractic adjustments all my life, correcting the inevitable subluxations (a vertebra slipping out of place, often pinching nerve trunks which can effect the functioning of whichever organs those nerve trunks go to—that's the fundamental principle of chiropractic health care), and making you feel like you have a railroad spike in your back. My back was not severely curved, but it would tend to "slip out" at the stress points in the curvature (not fun!), and whenever that happened, Dad would work me over and adjust it. So, if I was fated to be bitten by that particular bug, I guess I chose my father wisely.

When my father passed away, I took regular adjustments from a colleague of his (the chiropractor he took adjustments from). And since then, I've had fairly regular adjustments from several chiropractors (whose credentials I check out thoroughly in advance). The result is that my spine, while it still has a sideways curve to it, is a lot straighter than it would be without regular adjustments.

So I've had a lot of experience with chiropractors.

MDs want to operate and fuse the vertebrae. I know people who have had this done, and judging from what they've told me as to the results (stiffness, constant aching—and the operation is irreversible), I'm not having any, thank you! Osteopaths can sometimes manage fairly reasonable ajustment, but they're not really trained in that specific kind of spinal manipulation. Physical therapists cannot (and I've had a lot of physical therapy).

Not all chiropractors are into auras, chanting, and such. In fact, none of the chiropractors I know are involved in this kind of thing.

I have no particular opinion regarding this, other than a healthy skepticism. If it seems to help, then, why knock it? But—it is not part of standard chiropractic procedure.

As to the validity of chiropractic as an effective health service, I've argued that argument dozens of times, and I'm not about to do it again. Suffice it to say that does have a solid scientific base, no matter who tries to claim otherwise.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 04:49 PM

Oh, be off with you, BB! ;-)

Yeah, compulsive thinking interferes with seeing auras. The one thing most people cannot do, even if they try, is quiet their compulsive little mind...it's like a noisy radio that never stops hollering, and the static gets in the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM

Osteopaths can sometimes manage fairly reasonable ajustment, but they're not really trained in that specific kind of spinal manipulation.

That's not been my experience, Don. No offence, but the ones I've been to have all considered manipulation a major part of their training and practice. Thank goondness for me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:59 PM

"Not all chiropractors are into auras, chanting, and such. In fact, none of the chiropractors I know are involved in this kind of thing."

Lets start there. You went to a chiropractor for an adjustment, right? Did you ask her for a psychic reading of any kind?

I think adjusting your back, auras and spirit guides are three different things and I don't think anyone should offer unsolicited advice. Its intrusive and shows a lack of respect for personal boundaries.

Frankly, I would never go to a chiropractor. I prefer physio.

I also see auras and understand spirit guidance. I would not, however, tell someone the colour of their aura unless they asked me and I don't generally tell people that I can see auras because I can only vaguely understand their meaning.   

Spirit guides are something else. I have never heard of being able to see the spirit guide of someone else and I've never heard of more than one guide. I'm not going to go into it here but lets just say that spirit guides are highly personal. You may be able to help someone find their guide but to tell someone what it is, seems a bit condescending.

It sounds to me as if this person has boundary issues. Beware of false prophets or as coyote says, "There will always be people who say they can do things that they cannot do."


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM

If you have a good working relationship with the practitioner, it is not intrusive for them to offer unsolicited stuff. If either one of you are intuitive at all, there would be a sense of what is acceptable or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:18 PM

I've heard of people having more than one personal guide any number of times Dianavan. Having 2 is quite common, as far as I know. As for whether one talks about auras or whatever to someone else, it can all depend on the occasion and what their intuition suggests, I guess. It might be deemed intrusive, it might not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:58 PM

Folks, I thank you all for your thoughts. As I said, this Dr. helped me when MDs & a hospital could not. My orthopedist referred me to one of his partners who is a chiropractor & physical therapist. I went because I assumed he'd give adjustments. Keep in mind I was in agony. It was so bad the ER gave me oxycodene (sp.) but wouldn't admit me. "We don't admit people just because they have pain!" Brilliant!

The P.T. would not do adjustments-wanted me to start a regime of therapy. I needed pain relief - the drive alone to Ct.almost finished me. Thank the stars I found this chiropractor. After 7 wks in bed - she got me moving. I do expect this to have the same outcome. I'm feeling better today. So if chanting makes her more effectual-Baby I'm staying the course.

The subject didn't come up today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:22 PM

I really like the chiropractic for handling aches and pains, and my wife Christina can also do a pretty good job of easing my sinus pressure with some face moved.

She's tried some of that woo-woo stuff on me, and we always start laughing. She tired working on me in a black, slinky gown one time - that didn't work, either, because I cracked up laughing and spoiled the mood. I'm glad she hasn't tried the black, slinky number on other clients.

Most of Christina's clients are women, and most have become friends. My mother-in-law and our dogs and I are the greeting committee - we keep clients entertained while they're waiting. Some people come early to get lyrics and music information from me. I had a great conversation about Thomas Merton with a client yesterday, and another patient is on the Salvation Army Board of Directors and keeps me posted on poverty programs downtown. Clients bring in baked goods and eggs and plants. And there's something special about my wife Christina. When you meet her, you get the feeling she immediately knows all about you, and that she's a real healer.

A lot of this stuff seems like quackery to me, but Christina makes it work. She doesn't push the spirit guides and auras and stuff too much with me, thank heaven....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:30 PM

Joe, Sounds like she has a lovely practice. Your a lucky fellow-is she very strong? My Doc is a beautiful young (35ish) woman who has such strength it's unbelievable. Stronger then my two other male chiropractors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:32 AM

Interesting thread. More than one spirit guide? For me, thats an odd concept. Its hard enough to find one, let alone two.

If you are close to someone, of course you can share any insight you may have. I thought this was a patient-client relationship and it sounded very unprofessional to me.

In my life, I've had to walk a fine line between being a professional, seeing auras and knowing how to find a spirit guide. I keep it all very separate. I can't imagine crossing into someone's personal space without their permission.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:55 AM

Re spirit guides -- for what it's worth, I've been told I have four of them. One is a little blonde girl about 6 years old, whose job is simply to cheer me up at critical moments (I tend toward ultra-seriousness and depression)

Now I don't believe in much, but I have seen this little blonde girl in my dreams many many times throughout my life, and I never knew who she was. ANd I always wondered why, in the middle of some god-awful painful circumstance or argument or whatever, all of a sudden the stupidest silliest thoughts pop into my head without warning and make me laugh

ie Holy Hairy Flippins!!!!   

8-)

I was given a few details about 2 more of my guides at one point, but I don't remember the info now. Which just goes to show how very vital having conscious knowledge about my guides is, in my daily life

;-)

And the 4th one would not reveal him/her/itself at all. Apparently it would not have been in my highest good to be given that information, at the time - or, that's what I was told.

Hmmmmmmm ..... maybe he looks like Tom Cruise, and that would be much too distracting or something

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:10 AM

PS -- just to be clear, I received this information a couple years ago from a highly talented psychic friend whom I trusted enough to ask, specifically, about my guides and a few other highly personal matters. He was kind enough to humour me, and like any other experienced practitioner with an ounce of integrity, he would never use his psychic abilities/techniques to snoop on or otherwise invade anyone's personal space, without their invitaion/permission.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:14 AM

As far as I know, I've got two...one male, one female. That provides a nice balance. They make a good team. I might have still more, can't say for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:20 AM

I thought auras were a physiological trick of an after vision phenomenen due to chemicals in the eye not sissipating rapidly enough.

It is a phenomenen that I have seen that has been concurred by other pwoplw in the room. What I do not undertand is why it was not visible on some other people who were wearing the same colors of clothing that should have created the same contrast to the eye.

I just accept that auras around certain beings are part of my vision with no judgment as to what they actually are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:31 AM

RE auras -- I see them like a living glow of white light around people, animals, trees, plants, even inanimate objects -- but only when I'm in a "spiritual space" (ie meditation, practicing energetic healing like Reiki or Huna) OR when I'm very low on physical energy (overtired or sick). Because of this association with physical weakness/illness, for me, I never try to see them, nor do I even want to.

But it's not the same for everyone .... different strokes ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

When I think of a spirit guide, I do not think of a human form, let alone a particular sex. My understanding comes from Chinook tradition and you have to find it yourself (although you can have guidance). After you find it, you can share it but only if you want to. Other people can't tell you what it is.

Of course, ancestors play an important role, too. You can pray to them to help you because they are wise to the ways of the world. They've already walked the earth and know about life but you don't see them in human form.

What tradition does spirits with a human form come from? Maybe its a form of Christian angels or ghosts or demons or something. I don't really understand the roots of this knowlege. It seems very strange to me. How did it evolve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

Yes the light I see is a white light. Often it is only a half inch layer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:39 PM

I would agree, Dianavan, that ultimately a spirit being is not in the human form...it's beyond the human form, but the mind can translate the spirit into a human form if that is what the mind is comfortable with. That's why people in different religious traditions often see different figures out of those traditions when they see a divine apparition, while they may not see a figure out of some other tradition. Their own expectations tend to shape the way they see what they are seeing, byt what are they truly seeing in the ultimate sense? Who can say? I am simply aware that one of my spirit helpers comes across as a male person, the other as a female. I can sense it.

I think there are probably about a million different ways of experiencing and interpreting such things, and one's own cultural expectations may play a big part.

I agree that the spirits of ancestors play an important part in guiding embodied people. No question about that, as far as I'm concerned.

Rather like Daylia and Donuel I sometimes see a whitish aura coming off the body. It rises kind of like steam off the body. I have to be very relaxed for this to happen so that I'm aware of it. I usually see it coming off my own body when I'm sitting in a theatre waiting for a movie to start or some situation like that. You have to sort of not have your mind on anything in particular at the time....all of sudden you notice this steamy stuff. Quite mysterious!


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

I'm sure cultural traditions play a big role but I see auras too and its not part of my Native cultural tradition.

Oddly enough, I see different colours around different people. I use it as a guide to my personal interraction with them. If its yelowish-green, I sense danger, disease or perversion. If its very green, its healthy. Purple is spiritual. Orange is aggression. Red is energy. Blue is emotional, etc. Thats just a quick summary.

I don't always see auras but when I do, the aura is strong and clear.

I like what you said about the mind shaping the spirit into a human form. The mind can play funny tricks on us and it takes the knowledge of elders to explain the meaning and guide us in the right direction. Often it is what we fear the most that is there to guide us.

I'll give an example: My daughter was afraid of spiders. Most would call it a phobia. The spider terrified her because it was so big in her mind. I told my grandmother. She said the spider was a symbol of design. She said I should help my daughter to develop those talents and to help my daughter understand the significance of her guide. 25 years later, my daughter became an urban planner and an environmental architect.

She is no longer afraid of spiders. She uses the spider on her logo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM

Yes, some types of spiders are wonderful designers. I once spent an entire hour watching a garden spider build a big beautiful ornate web. She laid down the main anchor lines first, casting herself out into space and swinging to a new position like Tarzan on the grapevine. She then did the concentric circles, section by section, in the most meticulous and beautiful way, and finally finished by building a little central station to perch on...then she rested there. It remains one of the most amazing things I have ever witnessed. I liked spiders a lot when I was a kid, so I spent much time observing them.

The creatures that scared me a lot were wasps, hornets, large aggressive dogs, and bears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:31 PM

I have watched aphids who spin a 5 inch snow crystal shaped craft, fly them around. If you try to grab them they are electrostaicly charged to repel your grasp.

The most remarkable thing I have ever seen indoors were 2 globes of light that had the ability to pass through walls unaffected and keep going.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM

Spiders aren't designers - any more than snowflakes or sunflower heads are designers. It is sad that the consciousness that makes us so magnificently human also has the ability to make us appear to be utter fools.
We really do live in an age where some people will believe in anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM

Spiders are a symbol of design. Nobody said they were designers. I guess you don't understand the meaning of symbolism, Captain Ginger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: bobad
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM

"Nobody said they were designers. "

.......................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:23 PM

Yes, some types of spiders are wonderful designers.

.......................................................................

"You see what you want to see
You hear what you want to hear"

The Rockman who dwells in the Pointed Forest


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM

oops - I thought he was referring to my post.

Regardless - This is not a thread that should be understood in an empirical sense. Nor is a spider's 'ability' to design anything more than a metaphor. At least I didn't take it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM

You take yourself too seriously, Captain Ginger, that's what I think... ;-)

I was just being a bit poetic to say that spiders were "designers". It was a metaphor, as Dianavan suggests, not a statement of my literal belief. I have no idea how a garden spider keeps track of the geometric structure of its web while it's building it, but I guess most people would just say it's "instinct". "Instinct" is a great little catchall word that people use to describe any creature's behaviour which they are completely unable to come up with any other explanation for...

It's a way of saying "I don't know", but still sounding like you do know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM

Spiders have no problem just doing what comes naturally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:40 PM

Yeah, that's what's so cool about it. No one has to teach them how.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:46 AM

Spiders? Programming.

But not by Microsoft. You can tell, because it seems to work quite well.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:06 AM

Ain't Nature grand, LH?:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Partridge
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:50 AM

Nature or by design?

I would say that nature wins hands down.
The spiders natural ability has been copied by many designers

Pat x


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 04:06 AM

If you see a spirit guide or bhudda - sacrifice them at once.

The whole idea is that you can empower yourself AND use modern science and tools to heal.


The worst part of new age hypesters are the shysters who essentially keep charging you to use "self hypnosos"
Its SELF hynosis for gods sake 8*)

kinda like religion charging a masturbation fee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM

LIttle Hawk, I see that white steamy stuff rising off me too, more so recently and particularly when I'm practicing Huna (gathering energy for healing work). My best guess? I think its chi! (which is, of course, what an aura is built of as well)

Yes the light I see is a white light. Often it is only a half inch layer.

Yes, usually it's about a half inch wide but sometimes much larger, especially around trees, and when I'm VERY sick or weak. I get glimpses of colour too, but this is rare for me.



If you see a spirit guide or bhudda - sacrifice them at once.

hmmmmm    let's see    Sacrifice = to make sacred. Not sure what you mean, Donuel.

Here's a little more of what I've read, been told or discovered to date re re spirit guides. (Please note: I'm not claiming any of this is the truth, just presenting it here as food for thought)

* we can have one, two, four or even more guides at any given time, but everyone has at least one

* we agree with them, before we're born, to work together for specific purposes during this earthwalk

* they can be people we've known in other incarnations, or people we've known from this one who've passed on, or not 'people' at all, but animals or other Nature spirits

* they change over the course of a lifetime, according to needs ie the guide who helped a child deal with bereavement might not be the same one who assists her later with pregnancy and childbirth, dealing with a lawsuit or writing her final exams at university;

* between incarnations, we can choose to assist incarnate souls as spirit guides ourselves

* I've even heard that some guides are aspects or portions or fragments (??) of our own souls, from previous incarnations    *scratches head ... scratch scratch scratch* .... oooooo, haven't quite figured that one out yet .... but it's real strange, therefore I like it!   

:-)    daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

Daylia, Should one assume that the spirit guide is present for our good? Would it be correct to assume if there is more then one, that that person has multiple problems which one S.G. couldn't handle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

daylia, there is a book Zen and the art of motorcycling in which there is a phrase

If you see buhdda on the side of the road, kill him.

Although shocking at first glace there is a meaning here which empowers self.

I have never used the word sacrifice to mean "make holy"


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:28 PM

"Would it be correct to assume if there is more then one, that that person has multiple problems which one S.G. couldn't handle?"

When you're going through University and seeking to graduate, you normally get help from more than one instructor in order to complete your courses. As below, so above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:17 AM

There is no guarantee that presentations from spirits are either good or fully knowing. They can be just as blindly reactive as the conclusions of the most degraded of humans -- Dick Cheney, for example. The only resource one has for decoding the information provided by the living OR the disincarnate is one's own sense of truth and reason. Trust your own keen sense of truth first.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:51 PM

Well, yeah. Definitely. But there may always be someone around (corporeal or otherwise) who can provide some useful input, because there is always someone around who is more experienced and knows more than you do, right?

You just have to have good judgement about who that someone is at any given time. Meaning...as you say, Amos..."Trust your own keen sense of truth first." I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:23 AM

Donuel, back in the 70's everyone read that book it seems -everyone except me, that is. Following the crowd never appealed much. But it comes up so often in discussion, even decades later, that maybe someday I'll pick it up in a used bookstore, and enlighten myself.

Thanks for explaining. Can't imagine being overtaken by a homicidal deicidal frenzy if I saw the Buddha, or Jesus or an Angel or Whoever standing on the side of the road. But then again I'm nowhere near 'enlightenment'. (yet :-) Or maybe, I'm just not reading between the lines deeply enough... yet .... hmmm ... *scratch scratch scratch*...

Mickey, I don't think having more than one guide means you have more problems than the average person.   Having a guide or not is a personal choice, even if that choice is not made consciously. People vary in how much they want or will accept help. Some like to go it alone, others wouldn't dream of going into uncharted territory without a whole retinue of companions. Nothing is forced on us.

There is no guarantee that presentations from spirits are either good or fully knowing. They can be just as blindly reactive as the conclusions of the most degraded of humans -

this is very true, Amos. It is most essential to follow ones own responses, common sense and gut feelings in these matters. The physical body cannot lie (thank god!), so pay very close attention to physical/emotional/mental cues. We can attract and 'host' all manner of unwholesome influences along the way too; not 'guides' at all but more like parasites who take their toll on our energy, physical health, happiness, relationships etc. They can't latch onto anyone without an invitation/permission though, so, as the wise ones have said for millenia, the best defence is to

KNOW THYSELF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

I heard that was a good book too, but I never read it. I did read the blurb on the back cover of it once, though. I was joking around with a couple of friends. It said on the back cover of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"....."You will NOT BE ABLE TO PUT THIS BOOK DOWN!" I read that part and the rest of the blurb out loud, in a very dramatic voice (like the guy who does the voiceover on movie trailers). I then said, "Observe. I am putting this book down." And I did so. And we all laughed.

You and I seem to have the same resistance to going along with the crowd, Daylia... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:20 PM

Mickey191, would your chiropractor be willing to have her aura sighting put to real rigour and analysis? Would another claimer to seeing auras be able to see precisely the same thing without prior contact with her? Could her claims be subject to a double blind trial? Or would any such question of medical efficacy be met with vague excuses that such things wouldn't apply because blah mumbo jumbo?

3refs, the film "What The Bleep Do We Know?", though entertaining and containing some very basic science, was full of half-truths and covered things that, if the *rest* of the information were given about certain people's claims, would give a very different slant and make some people seem just as silly as they are. For example, remember the miscroscopic water patterns that supposedly formed naturally in containers, either forming horrible patterns with horrible words stuck on the containers or forming beautiful patterns with beautiful words stuck on the containers? Whhhaaaa? So water can read English backwards?! So where are the eyes and brain of water? Did you know that same 'scientist' (ha ha) claimed that water doesn't bubble and boil because of heat reaction but because it is angry?!

Little Hawk, your claim that "most people fear what they do not understand" may or may not be true. But the claim is misused if used to halt intelligent analysis. The implication here is that, met with mumbo jumbo, intelligent and questioning people "fear" because they "do not understand". Could it not just be that they do understand because they recognise mumbo jumbo?

"Whenever an esoteric or unusual subject like this one comes up in a thread, you can be guaranteed to hear their predictable responses...which will be to deny, scoff, ridicule, warn of dire dangers, etc..." Same as above. This claim is a way of ending debate, not encouraging it; of seeking to maintain claims without analysis.

Bee, you have my deepest sympathy for what happened to your friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM

Couple weeks ago, the fireplace repairman found and fixed a fault in my thermostat that made turning the thing on a bit of a fix. Took him 30 seconds, and cost me nothing. He explained that often repairman don't realize this problem is a simple fix inside the thermostat itself, and recommend expensive replacement parts or a whole new fireplace itself instead. Thanking him, I added "Well I guess it's better than having a doctor make that kind of mistake! like sorry sir, you need a whole new heart! ... when all you really need is to stop eating a certain food or something"

His eyes widened and he stared at me for a moment, then said "you know I can't believe you just said that .... that's almost EXACTLY what happened to me!"   I could tell the poor guy was just itching to tell his story, so I settled back with a nice hot cuppa and lent
him my ears.

ANd what a story it was. Apparently a few years ago he;d started noticing a 'hole' in his vision, in one eye. Went to the doctor, got sent to various specialist, and underwent a whole litany of neurological tests. Months later, they told him he had Multiple Sclerosis. Devastated, he underwent another couple years of Cat scans, MRI imaging, various tests etc from various specialists, but never really had the diagnosis confirmed. Regardless, the neurologist started putting together a drug treatment program for him to combat the alleged MS, and the poor guy began another ordeal -- deciding whether or not to begin a dangerous and very expensive drug treatment which was not covered by insurance.

He'd told a customer about it, and the customer recommended he go see a simple eye doctor first. Something which had never been done yet!   After a few months of waiting for a referral, he finally got an appt with an optometrist, who did testing and told him, finally, that it was not MS at all but a simple tear in the retina which widened at certain times of the year (in spring, when the light changes) and when he was under a lot of stress. WOW!!!   And here he'd spend years stressed out to the max over being told he had MS, running to various specialists, almost started a drug program that would have costed thousands a year and had many undesirable side effects!! The poor guy was almost in tears by the time he finished, and so was I.

ANd does he have a chance of a snowflake in hell of suing these well lettered well appointed and extremely well-heeled medical specialists for their misdiagnosis and all the pain, suffering, time, travel and energy and money he wasted over it, for years?   

NOtta!

I've watched many many people get sicker and die while undergoing standard Western medical treatment for various illnesses and injuries. Just wanted to point this out, in the interests of maintaining a balanced perspective in this discussion.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Mickey191
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:40 AM

Guest,Ian sans cookies wrote:
The implication here is that, met with mumbo jumbo, intelligent and questioning people "fear" because they "do not understand". Could it not just be that they do understand because they recognise mumbo jumbo?

After reading all the interesting posts - I'm truly surprised at the number of people who believe in spirit guides and other amorphous beings. Not putting anyone down for this. I have no fear of things I do not understand. How can I fear something if I give it no credence? I'm just too pragmatic to believe. I'm confident that if you invite me for a cup of tea-I'm coming alone!

AS for my Chiropractor, funny-the subject did not come up again. I've kept 5 app'ts. since this subject was raised and it's been strictly business. I didn't react in a negative way when the subject was broached,I was surprised-but did not even show that. She mentioned a book that she wanted me to read-I said fine. Perhaps she expected me to mention it again. I'm there to get treatment and for no other reason.    Thanks Folks for your views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM

Mickey, I don't think there's all that many 'believers' here, just that many who think it's nonsense (more sensitive than me, perhaps)haven't commented, as for the most part such ideas cause little harm to anyone, except when ill individuals fail to get proper care. Like you, I don't think I'm in a crowd while sittin' by myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

Ian, I don't think LH was trying to shut down the dialogue. But he was raising a point about many discussions that have occurred in this forum when spiritual issues come up. In those discussions it is not unusual to see material certainty being used as a standard to reject or invalidate extra-material perceptions. "I'm a realist", "prove it scientifically", "no objective evidence" and similar assertions are brought to bear.

This is all well and good except that such claims are being borrowed from a different universe of discourse grounded in meat-bound physical experience. It would seem to me to be obvious that reports of non-physical perceptions are not going to be measurable or frame-able by the purely material standards of physical science, even if they can be rendered consistent with some intellectual standards of scientific thinking. The two are very different. The latter has to do with how oneimposes standards of consistency, reasonable coherence, and methods of evaluation on a set of data. The former involves means of testig the phsyical universe to reveal its workings.

There is a whole ocean of data about spiritual stuff in the human library, ranging from propositions that are testable in some ways to extreme assertions about entities and their divine families and mythic adventures. Some of it is reasonable and consistent, and some of it is as inexpllicable as daytime television.

Anyway, I would suggest you might meander through some of the earlier htreads on related topics and revisit some of these arguments from the past before you come down too heavily on the "meat measures matter most" school of thought in such discussions. It is possible that there really ar emore thigns under heaven and earth than in all of natural philosophy, even if the field is also cluttered with nightmares and weirdos.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM

" It is possible that there really ar emore thigns under heaven and earth than in all of natural philosophy, even if the field is also cluttered with nightmares and weirdos."

There is Physics, and there is Metaphysics.

Physics deals with matter, energy, and the interaction of the two.

Metaphysics deals with all else.


Physics can no more make conclusions about Metaphysics than Metaphysics can make conclusions about Physics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:33 AM

Well..actually, BB...there is a boundary layer between the two, which is reflected in the truism that all we know of physics is derived from our observations (and the mathematical manipulations thereof).

If perception itself is a metaphysical phenomenon in the final analysis, as some belileve it is (not just stimulus response changes, but the actual perception at the end of the chain), why then, metaphysics may have something to say about physics. And phsyics starts digging into regions of metaphysical interest all the time, for example, when it posits that observation modifies outcome. Or that a singularity is the end point of Time. So I don't think the boundary between the two areas is as impermeable as all that! :D

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:20 PM

Anyone can make conclusions about Physics, BB, because physics is based on scientific observation and analysis. I agree with you that no one can make conclusions about metaphysics, however.

Ian, you wrote: "would your chiropractor be willing to have her aura sighting put to real rigour and analysis? Would another claimer to seeing auras be able to see precisely the same thing without prior contact with her? Could her claims be subject to a double blind trial? Or would any such question of medical efficacy be met with vague excuses that such things wouldn't apply because blah mumbo jumbo?"

Ian, who really GIVES a shit? Who would bother? How does the chiropractor's personal perception of auras cause a problem in your life? Whom does it threaten? Why the f*ck do you even CARE about it, unless your inner desire is to force or browbeat every other person in the world into only believing the things you happen to believe about reality?

It is the fact that skeptics such as yourself are consistently attracted to subjects like this like flies to road kill, and arrive full of enthusiasm to dump their scorn upon such subjects that pisses me off. That's why I object to your attitude. You know nothing about it, you have no personal experience, yet you wish to dominate other people with your version of reality because that satisfies some inner need you have to be "right" and make other people "wrong". Face it, buddy, you don't KNOW if there are auras, and you probably never will, and there's not a damn thing you will ever be able to do about it.

You're a pest, frankly. And so are the others of your "ilk" (to use a word that's popular on this forum).


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:22 PM

Off the main subject but I want to interject that I can't imagine why a person would go FIRST to one's doctor when one noticed a problem with an eye.

An optometrist would examine the eye and if he or she found underlying causes - like hypertension or diabetes or whatever - that doctor would send you to your own doctor for treatment.

Why would a person NOT go first to an eye doctor? Are things that different in Canada?


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM

Who knows? There could be any number of reasons for that. Some people probably don't have an eye doctor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM

Speaking as a pestiferous 'ilk', Little Hawk, and as one who disagrees with bb on many things, I'm going to defend him here. I've already mentioned the friend who died as a result of 'alternate' therapies, and bb may have some similar events in his past. I've also lost a good friend to a cult that used a form of Indian meditation to snare people, and has kept a good many people paying up for thirty five years, ruining more than a few lives in the process. Old fashioned Spiritualism caused a lot of unnecessary grief to people in its time, and I'm sorry, but some of the people who claim to see auras and spirit guides et al are charlatans, and it is a good thing that there are people who care enough to speak up and demand at least a mote of reasonable evidence for extraordinary claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:37 PM

oops, I guess that was Ian I was defending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM

It wasn't BB I was speaking to in those remarks, it was Ian (cookieless).

I agree that some people in alternative fields are charlatans, and they cause problems for people. Others are not. Some conventional M.D.s also cause problems for people, while others don't. I think we would do better to take a constructive attitude to different fields of inquiry (both conventional and unconventional), than just doing knee-jerk attacks on anything we deem "unusual" whenever it comes up...and that's what I see the same people doing here again and again.

The reference to "ilk" is an old in-joke on this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM

If I had a therapist who started talking about auras, I'd stop using them pronto. I like my practitioners to be grounded in reason, and not prey to any passing mumbo-jumbo.
I have also known someone who died as a result of such idiocy - she was morbidly obese, but chose to take the advice of a reflexologist rather than a doctor. She developed diabetes, went blind and eventually died - and all the while the reflexologist was taking her money and telling her not to go down the conventional route as it would spoil her balance or some such crap.
My view is that you are more likely to meet a charlatan in the alternative field than in a field run by a professional body with professional standards. I came across a 'reiki healer' a while back who was offering to heal a friend's horse posthumously - sending remote healing back in time to ensure that the beast didn't suffer when it died. I'm sorry, but such stuff makes me choke on my cornflakes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:00 PM

Little Hawk, a constructive approach would include testing alternative methods in an approved scientific manner, in the same ways that drugs and surgerical procedures and other medical therapies are tested. As things are, no alternative therapies, be they herbal, physical, or mental, are adequately tested, and sometimes, when the medical establishment does attempt to test them, they are determined to be useless or dangerous - or both.

I'm well aware that many drugs are developed from herbs and bark and roots, but in most cases, the key is developed, with toxins removed and dosages regularised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Ferrara
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:54 PM

There are charlatans and incompetents in physics, in metaphysics, in conventional medicine and in alternative medicine. Unfortunately metaphysics and alternative medicine do offer great opportunities for charlatans. The important thing, especially with medical choices, is to think for yourself.

I once saved myself from possibly drastic problems by thinking for myself. A resident at Johns Hopkins looked at the results of an allergy test for an extremely toxic IV drip, ignored my protests that the test showed I was allergic, and started to OK the IV. I finally told her to Get somebody in there who knew what they were doing! She did. I didn't get the IV. It's so dangerous it can only be given once in one's lifetime.

You have to pay attention. You have to use your mind. Same as with anything else in life. How much energy you put into it depends on how important it is. In the case of Mickey191's chiropractor, she wasn't urging anything on him, she just made a remark about what she believed she saw. Mickey asked about it here but didn't put a whole lot of weight on it one way or the other. That makes sense to me.

On the other hand, refusing conventional treatments and risking your life without seeing some really good evidence that the alternative treatment is better, doesn't make sense to me. But in any medical matter, nowadays, conventional or otherwise, people have to check out what the doctor is telling them if they can.

Some of my best progress since my heart transplant has come from taking nutritional supplements. The doctors look at me, tell me I'm doing splendidly, then say, "But you've got to stop taking all those over-the-counter medications." Right. If I take a supplement and a longstanding problem goes away, then it comes back when I drop the supplement, I know what I'm going to do.

Bad doctors happen. So do bad alternative practitioners. So do wonderful, competent people. My own chiropractor may see auras, for all I know, especially considering some of the other methods she uses. That's fine. I don't need my aura read. Suppose it's really ugly? But she has made a huge difference in the amount of foot, back, neck and shoulder pain, numbness, pinched nerve problems, etc that I use to experience.

A lot of these questions are unanswerable. (Like, Can you have more than one spirit guide? And what or who are they, if they are there at all?) There are possible answers that seem plausible if your mind works that way.

A lot of the answers above seem to be contradictory, but that may just be because our minds are limited. My own feeling is, pick the one that works for you, they're all models of how things work. But I don't think any of them can be more than a best guess. Even the "purely material" explanations.

As for me I suspect it's possible that people who love you and have died, or maybe even loved you in earlier lifetimes, may sometimes be guiding or protecting you. I don't believe these ideas in the sense of assuming they're true. I don't even believe that people exist somehow after they die although I strongly suspect they do, based on both what I've read and what I've experienced. I believe these things are possible, whereas other people such as bb or my spouse believe they are not possible and that any matter-based or conventional explanation is preferable.

Rita F


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM

Beautifully writ, Rita.

One of the reasons there is such a collision between the physics-based worldview and the world-view that includes or is based on spiritual observations and experiences is that their plans of reasoning are quite different. Traditional science on which most physics is based or wants to be based involves collecting data, by measuring, observing, experimnenting, and getting a lot of it correlated in some way, and deducing from that data some pattern or principle, like Ohm's law. It took a lot of fooling around with circuits before thoe relationships of resistance, current and voltage potential began to stand out. Today, any fifth grader can recite them (in some schools, anyway).

The philosophic method intuits the general case and then induces what data would support it, and looks to see if such data exist. The problem wi th this approach, which has its merits, is that you can go awry easily. I have heard the story that about the time the eighth planet was discovered by Piazi, Hegel had published a philosophical dissertation proving that there would never be more than seven because seven was a perfect number. I think the story is bogus, but it is a good metaphor for the slippery slope of induction when it meets the lasticity of the mind.

Despite this flow, not all inductive thought is treacherous, and it can lead the thinker thereof to data which was not otherwise suspected. The risk is in extrapolating from a principle with such conviction that you posit some datum and then assert it to be so. The plasticity of the mind is such that any dataum can start appearing to be true f asserted with enough energy, and th emind will filter out experiences that don't match up to the cherished belief. All kinds of idiocy can be attributed to this flaw, but that does NOT mean that all inductive logic is idiotic.

That's all I want to say about this interesting relationship at present.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:18 PM

Well said, Ferrara. Common sense must prevail, eh?

The family doctor I was going to, two years ago last November, told me I had bronchitis. I trusted him and wound up in the ER a month later with what was and had been congestive heart failure. I got a new doctor and a new heart valve. I would do the same, get a new practitioner, if I went to an alternative healer who wasn't up to snuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM

Whooooaaaa, LH! Why was I attracted to this thread? Because it is interesting. I find the overlap between thought, faith (of all descriptions, and we all have faith of some description) and action interesting. I find paranormal claims interesting, though I don't believe in them (and they are something to believe in, not something to believe - vital difference). I think debate and discussion is vital to human well being. I wasn't inviting any abuse from anyone - I didn't give any - and do not think it was called for. I was simply saying the same as Bee in the 17 Apr 07 05:00 PM posting above. Resorting to abuse simply shows either a lack of substantial argument, bad manners, or both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM

Fair enough, Ian. I apologize for my intemperate remarks to you. I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this kind of thing, having actually seen auras. I get angry at the utter assurance of skeptics who can just dismiss any person's experiences in the blink of a neuron or label it a "hallucination"....just because they are so sure that if they don't believe in something themselves, well then, there can't possibly be anything real to it!

Such faith is just as blind as the faith of a religious fundamentalist who thinks his version of God is beyond question.

In either case the belief is based not on experience but on hearsay, assumption, mental habit...and the denial of the experiences of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Bee
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

Little Hawk, I understand if one has had experiences, and interpreted them to the best of one's knowledge and ability, that it is annoying to have others doubt you. But (thurz allus a 'but') - if I hadn't gotten glasses when I was twelve I could now be claiming, quite truthfully, to see auras, because without my glasses, everything has a visible, glowing aura, of various colours according to the ambient light, colour of object, colours surrounding object, person's clothing, etc. Stars, without my glasses, are big shining objects with wide halos.

I am not suggesting you have an eye problem, just pointing out that the auras I see have a simple explanation - I'm nearsighted as a dormouse. There are frequently known physical explanations for psychic phenomena.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

Glaucoma, which is caused by slight discoloration of the lens over time, can cause one to see unidentified flying objects. But they don't look like aucers.   Other than that, there's hardly any difference.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM

Yes, Bee, I know what you mean about that. I have had myopia since about age 7 or 8, and I have certainlty seen that effect you describe when not wearing corrective lenses. The auras I have seen are quite a different matter, and I saw them while wearing my contact lenses.

I don't know what the auras are, although there are many books out suggesting different theories. I would think that they are an energetic field of some kind that permeates the body and projects outside of the body as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:31 AM

Everyone can easily see "auras". They are a necessary byproduct of the normal visual process though if one does not pay attention to them one may not realise they are there. They are better seen in a relaxed and not thinking-straight state of mind. It is easy to explain where they come from. They are not hallucinations in the usual sense but they have no correspondence in the outside world.

As mostly, Little Hawk gets is completely wrong, for there is really no skeptic who knows what he's talking about who'd tell him that his experiences with auras not real. That would be utter nonsense. They are of course real in the same way as afterimages, moire patterns, apparent bending of straight lines at intersections etc. are real. Skeptics only point to a completely different interpretation.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

Oh. Well, that's a relief. Another thing I don't have to worry my head about any longer... ;-) Thanks for helping, Wolfgang.


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 04:43 PM

Wow. Wolfgang sees auras. Who'd a thunk it. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM

Hey! Isn't folk music inextricably tied to the aural tradition?

Chanting, too!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM

Now a bit longer post about auras and how our visual system makes them.

They are not "hallucinations" as Little Hawk wrongly claims skeptics say (and only shows by that he doesn't know what he's talking about in a very verbatim sense). Hallucinations come from the central visual system and are not based on peripheral input. They are usually not shared, so if one person has a hallucination the others around can not see it.

"Auras" are input based and a result from the first few stages of neural processing. They are real in one sense of the word: Everyone with an intact visual system and the right instruction how to look can see them. The input into the central visual system is real (completely different from a hallucination) but has no physical correspondence in the outside world.

How that? Our viasul system has a 2-D input on a curved surface and must make 3-D sense of the input. From a long line of evolution, some "clever" wirings of the neural circuitry enhance contrast (by lateral inhibition). That makes a lot of sense for it helps to split up the visual array into different objects. So, at the border between two object (or object and background) the visual system exaggerates the physical difference in brightness, colour etc.

Artists know that or are taught how to use it. An artist who pencil-draws a sun on white paper knows how to make the white paper look whiter on the spot where the sun is. Like our visual system, the good artist shows the world not as it is objectively but as it is perceived subjectively. The artist exaggerates, makes thing longer, shorter, darker, lighter, larger than they are in the physical world in order that what we perceive when looking at the artwork is close to our perception of reality. (That's what is missing in boring photographs BTW)

Back to the visual system. Contrast enhancement will make the immediate surround of a body look different than the rest of the background. Then something else comes into play too. We always have microsaccades (tiny eye movements). They are necessary for seeing. With a completely stabilised eye (curare does a good job, unless you forget artificial respiration), after very few seconds we see nothing at all, we become functionally blind (those who have made it describe it as a scaring experience). If something now moves we can see the thing that moves but nothing else. The reason is that with a stabilised eye the borders between objects always fall on the same bunch of neurons and they adapt quickly. All our senses are triggered by changes, our visual system too.

Third factor is adaptation. All cells adapt that is they do not "fire" at prolonged input as they did in the first half second (That's why alarm mostly go doo   dooo   dooo   dooo...; one doesn't adapt easily to on-off stimulation. Partial adaptation of course is what mostly happens unless there is completely white light. That is one subset of neurons fires less than before and the other neurons that are not adapted still can fire full speed. That leads to afterimages at first in the opposite colour, and if you look longer it can change the colour due to the differential recovery rate of different neurons.

Now we have all we need: (1) eye movements (2) contrast enhancement (3) adaptation and afterimages. If for instance a prophet gives a sermon on a mountain the lower seated listeners will see him with a clear sky as the background. If he is good at what he does, they will listen and watch like spellbound and they will not take their eyes off him. If you look at any dark figure before a bright background, the immediate surround will after some time look brighter than the rest of the sky. To all of the onlookers! The prophet now has a bright halo around his head.

Why don't we see that normally. Because we switch attention and gaze too quickly for these effects to be seen. But if someone (something captures our attention so that we keep our gaze for a minute or so, we can see the brightest colours around persons (and inanimate objects likewise) chnaging in time. It is fun. I used to do it in boring lectures with the prof.

So that's what skeptics think about "auras", and not Little Hawks parody of a skeptic.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Auras and Chanting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM

Little Hawk's there can't possibly be anything real to it parody of skeptical thinking reminds me the story I have told in the Dissolving clouds thread. The man's immediate reaction when I said I guess he knew what the obvious alternative hypothesis was, was saying that the dissolving of clouds was real and not imagined.

Nothing of that kind was on my mind for I believed the effect to be real, but that is the gut reaction of some believers like Little Hawk. They immediately assume without any knowledge of the particular skeptical POV that the skeptics' reaction would be to discard the experience out of hand. Why should we? There's plenty of evidence for the perceptual (not: physical) reality of that effect and it is fairly well understood.

Wolfgang


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