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BS: One compelling reason for a god?

Fergie 31 Mar 07 - 09:10 PM
Mickey191 31 Mar 07 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 31 Mar 07 - 09:17 PM
Amos 31 Mar 07 - 09:17 PM
Bee 31 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM
wysiwyg 31 Mar 07 - 09:45 PM
Peace 31 Mar 07 - 09:49 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 31 Mar 07 - 10:08 PM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 07 - 10:09 PM
bobad 31 Mar 07 - 10:17 PM
GUEST,meself 31 Mar 07 - 10:21 PM
Peace 31 Mar 07 - 10:23 PM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 07 - 10:25 PM
The Fooles Troupe 31 Mar 07 - 11:09 PM
The Fooles Troupe 31 Mar 07 - 11:11 PM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 07 - 11:18 PM
Bill D 31 Mar 07 - 11:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 31 Mar 07 - 11:20 PM
katlaughing 31 Mar 07 - 11:36 PM
Mickey191 31 Mar 07 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,meself 01 Apr 07 - 12:09 AM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Apr 07 - 12:12 AM
Amos 01 Apr 07 - 12:16 AM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 07 - 12:24 AM
katlaughing 01 Apr 07 - 12:26 AM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Apr 07 - 12:28 AM
GUEST,meself 01 Apr 07 - 12:30 AM
Bert 01 Apr 07 - 12:35 AM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 07 - 12:54 AM
Peace 01 Apr 07 - 01:05 AM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 07 - 01:22 AM
Mickey191 01 Apr 07 - 02:09 AM
Peace 01 Apr 07 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 01 Apr 07 - 03:58 AM
Marion 01 Apr 07 - 05:18 AM
Wolfgang 01 Apr 07 - 07:33 AM
Peace 01 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM
Hawker 01 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM
John MacKenzie 01 Apr 07 - 09:31 AM
Bill D 01 Apr 07 - 12:24 PM
Stringsinger 01 Apr 07 - 12:46 PM
Stringsinger 01 Apr 07 - 12:54 PM
Stringsinger 01 Apr 07 - 12:59 PM
heric 01 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM
bobad 01 Apr 07 - 01:26 PM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 07 - 01:26 PM
Bee 01 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 07 - 01:52 PM
mack/misophist 01 Apr 07 - 01:59 PM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM
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Subject: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Fergie
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:10 PM

I am starting a new thread so that I don't get lumbered in with or confused with Godless atheists and possibly Godless agognistics.
I would somebody to answer this question.
Why should I believe that there is such a thing as a God?


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mickey191
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:15 PM

Because without a God the Benny Hinns & the Crouch Family would have to get a real job.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:17 PM

Because you can't do any 12 step program without a God of your own understanding.

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:17 PM

No reason at all.

You may end up doing so despite this, but you'd have a hard time trying to find any compelling argument that could be presented in languague or data or debate-worthy propositions.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM

I kind of like 'agognistics', although I don't think it quite describes my adeific stance. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:45 PM

One compelling reason for a god? The reason ain't up to us. The only being worth having as "God" would necessarily be beyond ourt understanding, or else s/he/it wouldn't be God.

So if God says there is God, you kinda either have to take his/her/its word for it-- or not.

The question is, I think, is there something bigger and more powerful than us, beyond us (or in whom we are)? If so, are we equipped to place where the limit is, on how big or how powerful? How to interact with such a being?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:49 PM

One compelling reason would be too many and a hundred not enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:08 PM

Peace, sounds like you've been there.

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:09 PM

"Why should I believe that there is such a thing as a God?"

As far as I'm concerned there is no reason whatsoever why you should believe anything you don't want to, Fergie.

And I say that as a person who does have spiritual beliefs, by the way. One of them is that everyone has a perfect right to his or her own beliefs...while not, however, having a commensurate right to necessarily inflict them on others...

Is there one compelling reason for a god? Who knows? I hardly think I'm in a position to answer that question. (grin)


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:17 PM

So that when the hammer hits your thumb instead of the nail you can yell "goddamnit", "freddamnit" or "joedamnit" just don't have the same effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:21 PM

That's like the one about the carpenter Joseph whacking his thumb with the hammer ...

Jesus comes running in - "You called, Father?"


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:23 PM

Twenty years ago, Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:25 PM

Here's a reason....so you have someone to blame when a tree falls on your car or an earthquake wrecks your house. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:09 PM

.... and so the Insurance Companies don't have to pay up...


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:11 PM

Voltaire said "If God did not exist, man would have to invent Him".


"Religion is the Opiate of the Masses and the Profit Center of the Entrepreneur"


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:18 PM

"Marx is hopelessly out of date." ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:18 PM

"The only being worth having as "God" would necessarily be beyond our understanding, or else s/he/it wouldn't be God.

So if God says there is God, you kinda either have to take his/her/its word for it-- or not.
"


well,*wry grin*.. in any area except Theology, that would be called circular reasoning and rejected....except for the "or not".

(I heard an atheist on a radio program the other day talking about the creation of the universe and subsequent evolution and how hard it was to find evidence of what happened...he said (paraphrased) "...so God chose as his preferred method of creation one that operated as if he (God) were not there!"

(hi, Susan..as you see, I have not converted.)

Now, if the heavens opened up, and giant glowing letters in the sky said "Stop That!" and lightning were to strike a selected list of politicians, I might just sing hymns with FEELING!


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:20 PM

Oh, that's two, sorry...


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:36 PM

BillD, if you haven't seen it, yet, I think you would really enjoy The Man Who Sued God with Billy Connolly. There's a recent thread about it. It's REALLY good.I think you'd enjoy the logic of the legal arguments re' "acts of god" and insurance companies.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mickey191
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:49 PM

Newsweek did a survey on people's beliefs. Some of it, more then a bit surprising to me. Science seems of little import when it comes to HIM. ER...HER?

March 30, 2007 - A belief in God and an identification with an organized religion are widespread throughout the country, according to the latest NEWSWEEK poll. Nine in 10 (91 percent) of American adults say they believe in God and almost as many (87 percent) say they identify with a specific religion. Christians far outnumber members of any other faith in the country, with 82 percent of the poll’s respondents identifying themselves as such.

Another 5 percent say they follow a non-Christian faith, such as Judaism or Islam. Nearly half (48 percent) of the public rejects the scientific theory of evolution; one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact. Seventy-three percent of Evangelical Protestants say they believe that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years; 39 percent of non-Evangelical Protestants and 41 percent of Catholics agree with that view.
Although one in ten (10 percent) of Americans identify themselves as having "no religion," only six percent said they don’t believe in a God at all.

Just 3 percent of the public self-identifies as atheist, suggesting that the term may carry some stigma. Still, the poll suggests that the public’s tolerance of this small minority has increased in recent years. Nearly half (47 percent) of the respondents felt the country is more accepting of atheists today that it used to be and slightly more (49 percent) reported personally knowing an atheist.

Those numbers are higher among respondents under 30 years old, 62 percent of whom report knowing an atheist (compared to just 43 percent of those 50 and older). Sixty-one percent of the under-30 cohort view society as more accepting of atheists (compared to 40 percent of the Americans 50 and older).


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:09 AM

What if it's really only one atheist but he's just one of those guys that everybody knows? (I'm referring to the survey, not to the subject of the thread!).


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:12 AM

Well it can't be me - cause "I don't get around much any more"...


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:16 AM

Mickey191--THose are sad numbers, indeed.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:24 AM

What if you believe in God but don't identify with any organized religion?

What if you neither believe nor disbelieve the theory of evolution, but regard it as an interesting theory with some supporting evidence, as yet not proven one way or another, while simultaneously regarding the theory of creationism also as intriguing but certainly unproven and with no available evidence, in other words don't necessarily take either one for granted as absolute gospel?

What if you are humble enough to admit you don't know any of these things for sure, and cautious and sceptical enough about the rest of humanity to consider the very strong possibility that no one else does either?

Or is being this non-dogmatic about it against the rules?


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:26 AM

No kidding, LH. What if, indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:28 AM

"One is the loneliest number that you'll ever hear!"


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:30 AM

"Imagine all the people living for today ... "


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bert
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:35 AM

I know I've said this before, but it seems appropriate to repeat it now.

Many religions insist that man was created in the image of God.

Science is leaning more towards the mitochondrial Eve theory which traces mankind back to a single woman in Africa.

If they are both right then God is a black woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:54 AM

Yeah, and the chances that either one of them is right are very   small, in my opinion.

If God is All That Is, then god is both a black woman, a white man, the ocean, an ant, the cosmos, and an eggplant. Sounds much more reasonable and democratic to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:05 AM

Even spinach?


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:22 AM

Asbolutely. Spinach for sure. That's where Popeye gets his godlike powers.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mickey191
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:09 AM

Amos-Sad isn't strong enough. A third of college grads. believe in Creationism! The survey must have been taken on the steps of Bob Jones "University." Hell, they found a fingerprint in some cave in N.M. that's been around for 28,000 yrs. So man has been around, in our present bods, for 10,000 yrs. Who can tell me what we looked like 10,001 yrs. ago?

There is a mention of 3% being athiests-Madeline Murray O'Hare probably enlightened 2% herself. I take issue with that figure. Many non-believers do not broadcast their views. I don't. I darn well would tell a pollster the truth though. Generally, it's a good way to get into an argument or hear that old line about no athiests in foxholes. That does bug me.

I've just been on a Catholic Blog Site that has set me on edge-I found such meaness & disdain for the human condition there. Mostly terrible rants against gays who give loving homes to unwanted kids. I'm ticked! CIAO


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:15 AM

Here ya go. Time for a laugh.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:58 AM

The person referred to as Saint Thomas of Aquinas, and his writings are a sound, rational foundation to begin your quest from.

Seek, and you will find.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Marion
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:18 AM

It seems to me that you're asking if there's scientific evidence or a logical argument which proves (or strongly suggests) that there's a God.

If such a proof exists, though, I doubt it would matter. My theory is that almost all people are basically irrational (and yes, I'm including myself here). We believe what we believe or prefer what we prefer for a variety of nonrational reasons - then as a result of that premade decision, we find the "rational evidence" for one side or the other to be more credible.

So, what are the compelling reasons that so many people believe in God? I think the number one reason is the goodness in the world: beauty of nature, human love, healing, etc. Other reasons might be:
- the aesthetic appeal of religion (ceremony, music, art, storytelling)
- good things that religious people/institutions have accomplished
- social pressure from some quarters
- chance to feel morally superior to other people

Just so you don't think I'm picking on the religious here, I also think that the most compelling reasons to NOT believe in God are also nonrational... and that the number one reason is the badness in the world: cruelty of nature, human evil, disease and death, etc. Other reasons:
- bad things that religious people/institutions have done
- social pressure from other quarters
- chance to feel intellectually superior to other people

Marion

PS There's a great bit in one of Douglas Adams' books, where they create a computer called "Reason" - you tell it your dilemma, and it tells you the logical solution. But this computer was hugely unpopular, because it the solution it came up with wasn't what people already wanted to do. So they replaced it with a computer called "Rationalization": you tell it your conclusion, and it creates a syllogism proving that you're right.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 07:33 AM

What if you neither believe nor disbelieve the theory of evolution... (Little Hawk)

You have not the slightest idea how the word "theory" is used in scintific parlance, have you?
By using the same word for completely different things you do not make these things equal except perhaps in your own mind.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM

One compelling reason for a god? To have someone to thank for the Dixie Chicks.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Hawker
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM

The question says:

Why should I believe that there is such a thing as a God?

Should is the word that stands out to me, I believe that one makes ones own mind up, and there is no should or shouldn't, If you live your life doing unto others as you would have done unto you and in a thoughtful and peaceable manner I dont think it matters if you believe in God or the Great green man from Mars.

I personally do believe in a god, maybe not the difinitive one in the bible - but that doesnt mean anyone else should!
( I also believe in fairies!)

Cheers, Lucy


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:31 AM

Some people need a god figure to blame for things that go wrong in their lives. It does seem strange however, that in the blame culture which pervades our everyday life,attendance at churches is falling!
Maybe the answer to the empty churches then, is to teach people to be self reliant and take responsibility for their actions?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:24 PM

"Nine in 10 (91 percent) of American adults say they believe in God and almost as many (87 percent) say they identify with a specific religion. Christians far outnumber members of any other faith in the country, with 82 percent of the poll’s respondents identifying themselves as such.

...and sadly, many of those treat the issue as a matter of "majority rules". Just get enough folks to vote for YOUR belief, no matter how, and it somehow validates it.
   What has happened to learning how to think, rather than how to rationalize and use rhetoric to gain adherents? Or am I just fantasizing that 'thinking' was EVER popular?


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:46 PM

Maybe without a god an addicted person might take the thirteenth step.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:54 PM

LH,

"What if you neither believe nor disbelieve the theory of evolution, but regard it as an interesting theory with some supporting evidence, as yet not proven one way or another, while simultaneously regarding the theory of creationism also as intriguing but certainly unproven and with no available evidence, in other words don't necessarily take either one for granted as absolute gospel?"

I think that if you didn't believe that there was evolution which like the theory of gravity (both scientifically proven), you'd have to be pretty stupid. Goes double for "Creationism".

I don't think one believes in science (it's not a religion) but believes scientific facts which can be empirically proven. Creationism is Crap.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:59 PM

The late Lou Gottleib of the Limelighters tried to convince the IRS that the land he owned was tax exempt because he deeded it to "God". Didn't work.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: heric
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM

I think (I hope) when most people say they do not believe in "evolution," they are not contesting the obvious truth of evolutionary process, but that they do not believe modern humans are direct descendants of little worm-like things; They can't take their imaginations back to the (imaginary) lightning strike into the primordial soup, or to the formation of those primordial amino acids on planet xenofera before it exploded.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:26 PM

LH

What sort of evidence would you consider definitive in proving the "theory" of evolition?


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:26 PM

Marion, your post is the most perceptive and intelligent comment I have seen yet in this thread, and really leaves little more that needs to be said.

Wolfgang, go and engage in some new evolutionary experiments with a jackass. You may succeed in creating a new species in the process.

Strinsinger - I believed implicitly in the theory of evolution all my life until quite recently. I now neither believe nor disbelieve it. I think it's probably partially correct, but probably not the whole story. I have NEVER in my life believed in the theory of creationism. I have ALWAYS believed in gravity (duh!), but I think that we may not yet fully understand the force of gravity and how and why it workds...although some of us certainly think we do, no doubt. There's nothing out there that some self-satisfied prig doesn't think he fully understands. Just ask him.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM

LH, out of curiousity, what bit of evidence made you start doubting the TOE?

Marion, a fine post!

Something I've noticed is the ability many religiously inclined and otherwise sane people have to hold two (or more) distinctly opposing viewpoints at once. On the one hand they will claim sincerely that god created everything, including Adam and Eve, etc., but they will at the same time seemingly accept and be interested in evolution theory and the descent of humans from primate like ancestors. I've run into this several times in conversation. I find it very interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:52 PM

It was an accumulation of things, Bee. I think the TOE is, as I said, partially correct, but I don't think it goes far enough. I think it just happens to be the latest human orthoxy, that's all. It will eventually by superseded by another. However, I am not about to raise a total firestorm on this forum by saying why I think that. Sorry. ;-)

I consider Adam and Eve to be simply symbolic figures in a symbolic tale, not to be taken literally at all. They represent the male and female halves of the human race in an early time, the earliest that was still in the memory and oral traditions of ancestors of the people who wrote Genesis. That was how people communicated back at the time the Book of Genesis was written...by clothing a concept in a symbolic figure or character. The Greek and Roman Gods, for instance, were all symbolic as well, many of them were personifications of various planets, such as Venus, Mercury, Jupiter, Mars, Saturn. You take something very, very large or distant...and you characterize it in a single human form and personality. This what Adam and Eve are. They are individualized characterizations of the earliest phase of human development...according to one cultural tradition. To take such a story dead literally is to completely misunderstand it, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:59 PM

This is a question I used to ask all the time. when I was young. If you can keep people talking long enough, the answer always seems to come down to fear; fear of death, mostly. God can be a wonderful prop.


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Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

So can money. But no matter how much you have, you're still gonna die.


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