Mudcat Café message #3665566 The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #154894   Message #3665566
Posted By: Teribus
03-Oct-14 - 02:50 AM
Thread Name: BS: Caliphate
Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
OK then Mr.Shaw let us talk about Delusory shall we:

1: "Israel has never been invaded since its inception."

Israel declared itself independent on the 14th May 1948 (Its inception)
Arab Armies from Egypt; Jordan; Syria and Iraq invade Israel on the 15th May 1948
Result Arab armies defeated. Egypt and Jordan however occupy and annex parts of the former mandated territory of Palestine where they proceed to shut their fellow Arabs up in refugee camps - inconvenient truth that Mr.Shaw and like minded "useful fools" somehow completely manage to ignore {Pssst Mr.Shaw Jordan's intention during this first invasion was to take over the whole of the mandated territory of Palestine and drive the Jews into the sea - do some research and read up on the subject}

Between 1949 and 1956 Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon were used as bases from which the Fedayeen backed to the hilt by the governments of those countries raided and carried out attacks against Israel - Again Mr. Shaw simple matter of record if you would care to do the research.

In 1956 Egypt nationalised the Suez Canal closed both the canal and the Straits Tiran to Israeli shipping and vessels sailing to Israeli ports. This Mr.Shaw constitutes an act of war and Israel quite rightly responded to the threat. Egypt loses once again and in return for Gaza {Which it never had any right to in the first place} and the Sinai - Egypt agrees to freedom of navigation and demilitarisation of the Sinai Peninsula - This lasts of course only until 1967 when the Arabs once again break their promises and throw peace out the window again and threaten Israel with annihilation.

Six Day War Israel once again finds itself blockaded and threatened by the presence of five armies camped on it's borders. Israel mounts a pre-emptive attack and destroys the Air forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. This time when they take territory that was originally part of the former mandated territory of Palestine they hold onto it. They also hold onto territory belonging to their enemies just as the Egyptians and Jordanians did in 1948. The Israelis will now trade land for peace. The Arab leaders meet in Khartoum at the end of August 1967 and jointly issue their decree "That there should be no recognition, no peace, and no negotiations with the State of Israel" - Tell me Steve can you give any examples of such unequivocal language being used by Israel?

The Yom Kippur of 1973 was started with a two pronged attack on Israel by Egyptian and Syrian Forces. After initial Arab successes the Israelis go over onto the offensive sweep the Syrians from the Golan Heights and threaten Damascus and clear the Egyptians from the Sinai and drive over onto the west bank of the Suez Canal encircling the Egyptian Third Army around Suez. The Syrians and Egyptians agree to a ceasefire

In 1979 Egypt signs a peace treaty with Israel (Guess what Steve? Egypt has not attacked Israel since and Israel has not attacked Egypt).

In 1994 Jordan signs a peace treaty with Israel and guess what Steve? Jordan has not attacked Israel and Israel has not attacked Jordan - See any sort of trend here?

2: "Yet Israel has invaded and/or annexed neighbouring territories on many occasions. Sinai. Negev villages. Gaza. All the best West Bank land. Lebanon. Golan Heights. Most of these incursions have had brutal consequences for thousands of innocent civilians."

After the 1973 Yom Kippur War Syria still holds out but Syria on its own will not attack Israel the Syrian Army is good at killing unarmed civilians but against trained armed forces they do not fare so well, they know that and the Israelis know that. So Syria contents itself doing Iran's bidding acting as host to Hamas and as a supply conduit to Hezbollah both armed and financed by Iran. Iraq used to be in this equation but they were removed from the scene in 2003.

Since that reality has become accepted Israel has been subjected to missile and rocket attacks from both Southern Lebanon and from Gaza and from bombing attacks mounted from inside the West Bank. Incursions into South Lebanon and into Gaza and the building of the wall have reduced the effects of those attacks but had there been no attacks no incursions would have been carried out and no wall would have been built.

Yes Steve it is great that you realise that when leaders opt for war then there are consequences - brutal consequences if you lose. I would have thought that those Arab leaders, after 66 years of losing, might at least try some other approach, but they appear to be on a very slow learning curve with predictably brutal consequences and results.

3: "Always with consequences for innocent civilians that have far outweighed any injury to Israeli civilians (the deliberate policy of successive Israeli regimes)."

Ehmmmmm Steve, it is the duty and responsibility of any sovereign government to defend its territory and defend and guarantee the safety and security of it's citizens. This is not an exercise in equivalence, there is no rule that states if I kill 100 of yours you are only allowed to kill 100 of mine - the rule is that if you chose war then the other side is fully entitled to defend itself as best as it sees fit to stop and prevent you from ever attacking again. If I were a leader and every time I provoked an attack "my side" lost 2,000 and my "enemies side" only lost 79, "my side" suffered extensive destruction of vital infrastructure while my enemy was unscathed, then I would change my game plan wouldn't you? Until of course you view the tragedy as a casual observer and you realise that the leaders representing the "Palestinians" and the backers of the likes of Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah don't really give a flying F**K for the "Palestinians" - They never have, they never will.