Mudcat Café message #3664918 The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #154894   Message #3664918
Posted By: Teribus
01-Oct-14 - 03:58 AM
Thread Name: BS: Caliphate
Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
1: "Perhaps Israel would be a somewhat finer "democracy" if it refrained from serial invasions of its neighbours' sovereign territories"

What serial invasions? Do you mean the ones mounted in defence of their own territory? Please let me know if I am in error in recalling the following

(A) "On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the newly formed United Nations resolved that a committee, United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), be created "to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine". In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the UN General Assembly, the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem ... the last to be under an International Trusteeship System". On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 (II). The Plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the Report of 3 September 1947.

The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, ACCEPTED THE PLAN, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine REJECTED IT. On 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets."


(B) "On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel. The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq—entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War"

(C) "After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip."

Now please note Mr. Shaw in all of that there is not one single mention of Tosser Arafat's "invention" and "creation" - i.e. "Palestinians"

Now please show me a map whether it be from Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah or from the Palestine Authority that clearly shows the borders of this so-called sovereign territory of "theirs" and where the borders of the sovereign state of Israel are. Don't sweat too much on that Steve because no such map exists, so much for Arabs wanting a "Two State" Solution (They don't) IF they win then Israel is wiped from the map and the Jewish population will be annihilated.


2: "from referring to itself as the Jewish state when a very large minority of its citizens are not Jewish"

I do not think that they do refer to themselves as the Jewish State - That was terminology transferred from the Peel Commission Report of 1937 and from the 1947 UN Plan.

3: As for:
a: "imprisoning hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, without charge"
b: "dividing the land of Palestinian families going back hundreds of years with an apartheid wall"
c: "setting up remote-control sniper fire aimed across the Gaza border with children in its sights" Never heard of that one, but ask anyone who lived in Berlin - they lived with something similar to that for decades.
d: "stealing all the best Palestinian land (shades of Smith's Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa there) for illegal settlements" Basically Bullshit.
e: "detaining Palestinians (but never Israeli Jews) at checkpoints without cause for up to three days" - Probably because Israeli Jews are not attempting to kidnap and kill Israeli citizens?
f: "what they do in Gaza every couple of years, not to speak of the blockade." - Oh by all means let's, Israel unilaterally withdrew entirely from Gaza on the understanding that no further attacks would be mounted on Israel or it's population from Gaza. The attacks continued, to date tens of thousands of missiles, rockets and mortars have been fired indiscriminately into Israeli centres of population - Eh Steve Israel does have the right to defend itself from attack, and not to labour the glaringly obvious - If someone is firing missiles, rockets and mortars at you by the tens of thousands - You old son are under attack - and your best course of action is to do something about it

Now during the First and Second World Wars did the western democracies of France and Great Britain detain people without charge as a security measure? Was land requisitioned and were people forced to vacate their properties (Large chunks of Dorset are still retained in MOD hands), not to mention the disgraceful treatment that the Chagos Islanders have received at the hands of the British Government.

IF the "Palestinians" want all of the above to become things of the past then let the "Palestinians" just for once try peace as opposed to war - They are not going to defeat the Israelis they are not going to drive the Israelis into the sea, they are not going to wipe the stain of Israel from Arab soil - High time after 66 years they woke up to those facts - The Arabs chose to go to war, they lost (repeatedly), you seem to have no problems with Arabs invading, occupying and annexing land in time of war so I am sorry to tell you Mr. Shaw that that particular saw cuts both ways and until the Arabs are prepared to sit down and discuss borders then there is no such thing as an "illegal" settlement because there are no agreed borders.

If you want to compare "lower standards" Mr Shaw would you care to take a look at Israels neighbours in the region?

Egypt: Military Dictatorship since Nasser's coup in 1952. It was the driving force behind most anti-Israeli activity between 1952 and 1979 when Egypt made peace with Israel and that peace has held ever since.

Jordan: Weird sort of "constitutional Monarchy" with a two house system of representatives. The King holds extensive executive and legislative powers and while the lower house of representatives is democratically elected the upper chamber is totally selected by the King. Of all of Israel's neighbours Jordan is least objectionable. They made peace with Israel in 1994 and that peace has held.

Syria: Well now Steve what can I say - an absolute hell hole. Bashar al-Assad's father killed his own people in the tens of thousands - Bashar has killed them in the hundreds of thousands. {Some figures for you Steve in 66 years some 115,078 people have been killed in Arab-Israeli conflicts 21% have been Israeli soldiers and civilians [That works out at roughly five per day] - compared to 260,215 in three and a half years in Syria [And that works out at roughly 204 per day] }

Lebanon: Like "Palestine" Lebanon was set up to be a multicultural, multi-ethnic and multi-religious haven in the region. But the arrival of "Palestinians" in 1948 and in 1970 screwed things up a bit. Perhaps the Lebanese should have let those refugees integrate instead of imprisoning them in camps. Independent in 1943, Arab-Israeli War in 1948, armed insurrection in 1958, civil war in 1975 {Lasted 15 years with ~150,000-odd killed in that one Steve}, Syrian occupation from 1976 until 2005, Reprisal raids by Israel resulting from PLO & Hezbollah attacks on Israel in 1982 and in 2006. Since then conflicts both internal and external have torn the country apart and it now exists as a bomb just waiting to explode - absolute paradise compared to Israel eh Steve?