Mudcat Café message #1707265 The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #73264   Message #1707265
Posted By: Arne
31-Mar-06 - 01:18 AM
Thread Name: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments

[Arne, quoting from Bruce's proffered link]: "the president and the prime minister acknowledged that no unconventional weapons had been found inside Iraq."


Ummmm, Brucie: I'm quoting from the link you provided as evidence that "THE UN DECLARED SADDAM WAS IN NON-COMPLIANCE with 1441, his LAST AND FINAL chance" (or alternatively that "the UN report required by 1441 stated that Saddam was in substantial non-compliance, and [Bruce gave] a clicky to it so that all can read it and see."), and I did this to show that these links are far from frinedly to your point of view, and in fact can be taken as evidence against the assertion you claim they support. In fact, I did that repeatedly, just so the cognitively challenged such as (mainly) you might start to catch on. And I pointed out that some of the links you gave didn't use "material breach" much at all, and only once as an assertion, and that they mentioned "substantial non-compliance" not at all). But the cure is yours, Brucie: You can go into those links and show where they say "THE UN DECLARED SADDAM WAS IN NON-COMPLIANCE with 1441, his LAST AND FINAL chance".

Read what has been said, not wwhat you want to see.

Ummm, that's what I was doing. And I just quoted it right back at you. Maybe you ought to read (and post excerpts from, if you find any helpful) the links you're providing.

"IF Iraq chose to cooperate fully, as required. It was a challenge to the Council and an affront to the international community that Iraq was withholding full cooperation. "

Ummm, that "IF" there is Blix's assessment at that time as to whether "the period of disarmament through inspections could be 'short'". So what's the opposite of "short", Brucie?

[from Brucie's third link]: "Similarly, the representative of Canada said that more time for inspections could be useful, but only IF Iraq decided to cooperate fully and transparently, starting now. While that cooperation was beginning, it was being offered grudgingly and only after intense pressure and the deliberate build-up of MILITARY FORCES in the region."

Oh, you snipped the rest of this paragraph, Brucie: "To make clear to Iraq what was expected, the Council must lay out a list of key remaining disarmament tasks and establish an early deadline for compliance. That would allow the international community to judge whether Iraq was cooperating on substance, and not just on process."

IOW, the Canadians, favourable to the idea that Saddam's co-operation was somewhat lacking, also were of the opinion that clear and definitive milestones should be laid out to measure whether co-operation was in fact coming and if progress was being made. Hardly sounds like they thought a "last and final chance" had been used up.

Yes, Brucie, a threat of military force seems to have done the trick. But the way this kind of s*** works is: You say, "Gimme my rent, or I'll blow your kneecaps off", while cocking your .45 auto. Then the person gives you the rent money and you leave; you're happy and he's happy (he's alive), and eveyone else on the street is prompt on their rent as well. Works wonders even if the ethics may be a little shady. But it doesn't work if he gives you the money, and you tell him it was in the wrong colour of envelope, or he didn't turn all the bills the same way, or he didn't kiss your rosy while handing it over, and then you pop him one anyways. See, then, he's an angry cripple, you're a bullying a$$hole, and the neighbours don't see any purpose in paying up on time because you're gonna pop them no matter what they do. Matter if fact, they may even think about getting guns themselves....

So why'd you snip the Indonesian's comments, Brucie? Because they said that "the objectives of resolution 1441 could still be met"? Doesn't exactly fit your storyline here, so no wonder you ignore it. But the Indonesians' view of the Iraq situation is just as germane to the (supposed) "U.N. position" as is the view of Canada, Norway, or the U.S. They're all members of that body. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, Mr. "Bruce" Phelps, is to find where the U.N. decides as a democratic deliberative body, that "SADDAM WAS IN NON-COMPLIANCE with 1441, his LAST AND FINAL chance". Views of individual members count only as their own.

As for "but I know you don't give a damn about them or their families, Brucie...."

The blood is on the hands of those, like yyou, who DID NOT DEMAND THAT SADDAM COMPLY, but instead did all they could to lead him to believe that he could get away with continued violation, as he had for 14 years. LOOK at who was making money off the violations of sanctions, and who voted against holding Saddam to the terms of 1441.

Ummm, who didn't demand that Saddam comply? The Europeans were all over it, begging Saddam to do everything, anything, even kissing Dubya's a$$ if asked, so war could be avoided. And Saddam did do a hell of a lot (for a sovereign nation) to "comply" as best he could. In fact, his compliance with the required documentation was about as good as he could do, and the accuracy of this document, dissed and dismissed by Dubya and company, was far better than the U.S. presentation to the U.N.. You do agree with that, don't you? So instead of talking about whether Dubya thought that Saddam was complying (when Dubya was a doofus, ignoramus, and first-class jerk), why not talk about whether he actually was complying? Your real problem with the "tu quoque" you're asserting above is that the facts prove that the sanctions did work, and that Saddam was complying with the restrictions on WoMD. Even before the threat of military force!

But just one curious question, Brucie: Who did (in your hallucinatory imagination) "vote against holding Saddam to the terms of 1441"? Just curious, you know....

Second thought, another curious question: Who's making money off the occupation? Hmmmm?

""But he toowk a more positive line than in his report two weeks ago, "
WELL AFTER THE DEADLINE FOR COOPERATION IN 1441- see note above about Saddam only cooperating AFTER the military buildup.

What "deadline"? He met the deadline for the documentation. And he was letting the inspectors do their jobs. What makes you think that a "military buildup" done by the U.S. unilaterally is some kind of U.N. "deadline"? If you think your links prove that the U.N. declared he missed a deadline, feel free to quote the specific language from your links that state this, so we can all stand back in amazement.

[Arne]: "First link: Date Nov. 8, 2002"
[Arne]: "Second link: Date Nov. 8, 2002 (and a repeat of the first one)"

If you show no comprehension of what 1441 says, it is reasonable to present it to you before discussing the failure of Saddam to comply with it.

I'm not interested in UNSCR 1441 declaring Saddam in violation of previous resolutions. I'm interested in the U.N. declaring that he was in "material breach" or "substantial non-compliance" with UNSCR 1441 (something that was pointed out to him would be met with "serious consequences"). And to my mind, the gravamen of UNSCR 1441 was that Saddam disarm any WoMD (and do so to the satisfaction of the U.N.) But that he was doing (and would have completed had Junior not started crossing his legs and squirming too much). If just the fact of non-compliance with U.N. resolutions (historical or otherwise) is enough justification for any other county to unilaterally invade, then you'd agree that any Arab state (or even Upper Phlogistan, if they feel like it) should be able to invade (or attempt to invade) Israel for its longterm disregard for the requirements of far more U.N. resolutions than Iraq. Right???

"Holding Iraq in "material breach" of its obligations under previous resolutions, the Security Council this morning decided to afford it a "final opportunity to comply" with its disarmament obligations, while setting up an enhanced inspection regime for full and verified completion of the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991)....

See above comment.

... By the unanimous adoption of resolution 1441 (2002), the Council instructed the resumed inspections to begin within 45 days, and also decided it would convene immediately upon the receipt of any reports from inspection authorities that Iraq was interfering with their activities. It recalled, in that context, that the Council had repeatedly warned Iraq that it would face "serious consequences" as a result of continued violations....

The inspections began. And Saddam gave over the documents required. In fact, UNSCR 1441 also required that any member states having information pertinent to the matter turn that information over to the inspectors. But the U.S. balked on that, refusing to give the inspectors the specifics of this information until much later (and only under duress) ... and when the U.N. inspectors finally got the information, they did try to check it out, and termed it "garbage, garbage, and more garbage". So if we're talking contempt of the U.N, shouldn't we invade ourselves?

... Under the new inspection regime established by the resolution, the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) would have "immediate, unimpeded, unconditional and unrestricted access" to any sites and buildings in Iraq, including presidential sites. They would also have the right to remove or destroy any weapons, or related items, they found....

And they got it. They checked under the palaces for the "bio-labs" the U.S. said were there (and followed many other wild-goose chases after U.S. "intelligence"). And came up with zip.

... The Council demanded that Iraq confirm, within seven days, its intention to comply fully with the resolution. It further decided that, within 30 days, Iraq, in order to begin to comply with its obligations, should provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA and the Council a complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, including chemical, biological and nuclear programmes it claims are for purposes not related to weapons production or material. Any false statement or omission in the declaration will be considered a further material breach of Iraq's obligations, and will be reported to the Council for assessment."

Yep. Did that. As I said, a much more accurate (and timely) report than the U.S. gave.

[Arne]: "Endless repetition of the same ol' crap is not any kind of proof"

THIS I can agree with- so when will you show me where Saddam COMPLIED with 1441??????

Ummm, it's your assertion (that the U.N. said that Saddam didn't comply). Don't try to shift the burder of production to me. But as I've noted (and as your lying eyes told you, with TV of Blix on the ground, the documentary evidence of the Iraqi weapons report, the video clips of the al Samouds being destroyed, etc.), Saddam did comply.

But did not prove it, nor comply with the inspection requirements until military force was brought into play....

Funny. I thought that the U.S. insisted the U.N. inspectors get out of Baghdad before the U.S. invasion, not that they insisted that the U.N. inspectors be let in after the invasion. Guess we live on different worlds, Brucie. Perhaps universes.

AS FAR AS the UN, the US, the EU, and anyone wlse you ask was concerned, he was still working on them, whether he had them in place or not.

Nope. Many thought he may have them (some thought wrongly that he did), but when the evidence on the ground showed that there was little if anything there, and that the U.S. "intelligence" and their repeated assertions before the U.N. and elsewhere was "garbage, garbage, and more garbage", many had a more sceptical and jaundiced view towards pulling the trigger. Which is why Dubya would have failed to get the U.N. to go along and agree with Dubya that Saddam had blown hos chance and needed to be invaded (despite Dubya's promise to force such a vote, a promise he later reneged on).

Would you say that we should not have gone into Germany in WWII because Hitler had NOT conquered the world, as he stated was his intention? Or admit that sometimes force is needed to prevent a greater problem?

Totally stoopid attempt at an analogy. But right off the pages of the RNC "spin points" (and the propaganda campaigns of the likes of Rummy and Condi).

It was a judgement call as to whether Iraq qualified: BUT there were points on both sides, and the dismissal of the reasons TO attack seems unwarrented by what was know ( or thought) at the time.

To morons, if I may say so. But (not surprisingly) a large percentage of people around the entire world are not morons. Sorry to hear about your handicap, Brucie. But: "WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!"

READ the reports that were being used: IF they were false, Saddam had a large hand in trying to make the world think that he was more dangerous than he was.

A different point (and another RNC "talking point"). One I'll disagree with. I think I hear it mostly from people trying to justify why they were so freakin' wrong. The main "evidence" (if you can call it that) for the many horrible WoMDs that Saddam supposedly had came from maladministration hawks with their own agenda (and secret purposes; Google "PNAC" [and add in "Netanyahu" and "Bamford" for some really fun stuff]) ... and from Chalabi's INC thugs (that even Clinton's CIA thought were useless). Unless you can show that Saddam was in cahoots with Libby, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Chalabi's INC, you're full'o'it.

If someone tells a policeman "I have a gun", the policeman can shoot (when needed) without being accused of attacking an unarmed man- even if the person was lying.

Saddam did nothing of the sort. You're just being dishonest here. A little confession is good for the soul, Brucie.

With WMD such as biological agents, ANYONE is a real threat.

Oh. Like the U.S., you mean????

When someone is making threats, has shown in the past to be willing to carry out those threats, and appears to have all the materials to carry out those threats, would YOU consider that he should just be ignored until he carries those threats out? You need to come live in a target zone for a while...

Hmmmmmm. *searching fuzzy folds of long-term memory* Ummmmmm. Yeaaaahhh. That's right, Brucie! There is one country that has positively demonstrated the will to use nuclear weapons (the really big threat that such as Cheney, Dubya, and Rice kept harping on), that is known to possess such, and in fact has even talked recently about maybe using them under the right circumstances. Now who could that be? On the tip of my tongue....

I do not regard the idea of NOT enforcing the terms of the 1991 cease-fire as being even remotely reasonable.

I don't regard you as "being even remotely reasonable". Guess we're even.

Say, why did Dubya think he'd have to produce a "provocation" (that U-2 scheme you've studiously ignored) in order to be able to go to war? Doesn't say much for your case for war when even your hero thought he had to "game" the system....

I'll be looking for those quotes from U.S. resolutions declaring Saddam in "substantial non-compliance" with UNSCR 1441. But I promise you I won't hold my breath.