Mudcat Café message #1652265 The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #73264   Message #1652265
Posted By: Arne
20-Jan-06 - 04:45 PM
Thread Name: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
BeardedBruce:

Not a blind eye- it is just that they are better than the alternative offered by the Democrats, IMO.

Ahhhh, "moral relativism" at its finest. The tu quoque defence is in full flourish amongst the Republican sycophants, IC. Guess that's what you're reduced to when your leareds are caught with their pants down. But what, pray tell, is "worse" with the Democrats, eh? For what prize, did you sell your soul for a sou, dear Bruce? Let us know; we're interested? Abortion? What motivates you to turn a blind eye to the needless deaths of thousands of our young ones?

As I stated, IF there are people found to have committed illegal acts, they should be prosecuted. Period. Regardless of party.

Do you think that it was legal to disclose Plame's connection with the CIA (something that it is now obvious that both Rove and Libby did)? Even fi you're going to get 'technical' on this, do you think that this outing for political purpose was the hallmark of good government? Regardless, you miss the point: Dubya said that anyone involved in this would be out of a job (and he also said, probably dishonestly, that Libby and Rove weren't involved). He lied. Rove is still special assistant to Dubya. And Libby's only out because he got indicted. Hardly the hallmark of an responsible and honest administration.

This was discussed- PLANS are always being made for POSSIBLE actions, just in case. I have seen NO EVIDENCE that any decision, other than to have Saddam comply with his obligations, was made PRIOR to the DEADLINE date specified in UNR 1441.

You still believe that horsepucky, when so many people have said that the maladministration was gung-ho from the get-go??? Just as a ferinstance, I'd point to the fact that Dubya went ahead and invaded after he'd gotten Saddam to let the inspectors in (and despite the fact that the U.N. Security council was heavily in favour of letting the inspectors do their job). There's Duya's "F*** Saddam, we're taking him out" comment, and his appalliong "Feels good!" (while pumping his fist in the air) on starting the hostilities. That doesn't register with you, Bruce???

And what's with this horsepuckey about "the DEADLINE date specified in UNR 1441"? Please explain.

"3). Dubya's repeated assertions that warrants were needed for wiretaps and that he wasn't doing any warrantless snoops."

Repeated? I have not seen them- can you provide a link?
I will wait for facts before deciding the point.


Here's one (found in 2 minutes with Google). I've heard audio clips of a couple on the radio but can't give you links right now. Is one enough, or will you demand "repeated"? (One quote is enough to establish the proposition that he in fact did make such an assertion).

Here's the official maladministration site's words:
Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so.


"4). The maladministration's claims that Dubya didn't know Abramoff (despite Abramaoff's 200 or so visits to the White House, his logged meetings with Dubya, and his being a member of the Dubya transition team. Hey, for that matter, remember Dubya's "Kenny who?" for his old pal (and biggest contributor) "Kenny Boy" Lay."

Again, send me links.

*sheesh* Pick up a newspaper, will ya? Or for that matter, Google is your friend....

[Arne]: Yep. Not only is that not the truth, but it's not even close. I've tried to look at how it could be charitably interpretetd as a twisting of the truth, a somewhat dishonest and misleading slant on the truth, or a reasonable mistake. No matter how I look at it, t's none of those things, Bruce, and it's time you displayed some honesty and fessed up to it. Or you can explain why Saddam letting the inspectors in (an obvious and established fact) is "Saddam not letting them in".

So, after the deadline, he let the inspectors have the access they wanted- AFTER THE DEADLINE HAD PASSED.

WTF is this "AFTER THE DEADLINE HAD PASSED"???? But I'd note this is nonresponsive to my point. Still don't know what hallucinatory "deadline" you're trying to foist off here, but Dubya didn't say "... before the deadline had passed", did he??? Yes or no, Bruce.

So, after the deadline, he let the inspectors have the access they wanted- AFTER THE DEADLINE HAD PASSED. From his past history, he always gave in just enough to get away with NOT complying with the UN resolutions- Can you provide ANY evidence that he was providing ANY of the information specifically pointed out in the UN report required by 1441, that stated he was in substatantial non-compliance? The ONLY thing I had heard was that, IF he did provide that information, the inspectors would have been able to do their job- NOT THAT HE WAS COOPERATING.

Saddam let the inspectors in. He gave them the report they wanted. The inspectors were doing their job, and protested against the Dubya sword wagging and asked ... almost begged ... to be left in there to fininsh the job. They were 100% right, BTW.

You seem to have some completely incomprehensible notion that Dubya just had to invade (something that not even the UNSCR in the ititial 1441 resolution had even specified) if there was any disputed or technical "non-compliance" at some date that it seem just you made up, and further, that it is good policy to invade and to get many thousands killed despite whatever happened afterhad to invade at the same time that he was still claiming that no such decision had been made, which would make him a liar (and prove my other point).

Here's UNSCR 1441:

          3.       Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;

          4.       Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq�s obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below;

          5.       Decides that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC�s or the IAEA�s choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi Government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the Council 60 days thereafter;


Iraq did #3. The U.S. thought it inaccurate and/or incomplete, but it turns out to have been far more accurate than the U.S. claims. The Iraqis did #5. #4 says that the U.N. will be responsible for assessing and taking further action, not Dubya and his bunch of gunslingers.

Do you understand "FINAL" at all?

Do you unnderstand "stoopidity", "intransigence", and "imperviousness to new facts and developments" at all? Do you still think that 2000 soldiers' (and many more civilians') lives are a perfectly reasonable prive to pay for some bureaucratic and/or technical failure to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s (disputed failure at that)? I asked you this a long time ago, and I don't think I ever got a response. How many soldiers' lives are worth a snub to Dubya's ego and pride, Bruce? Or hoy many are worth his political esteem and electoral advantage (if you happen to be a bit cynical about Dubya's strategery)? Because an invasion when Iraq was co-operating in every meaningful way and when it was becoming more and more apparent every day that Iraq had not WoMD becomes sheer stoopidity if not outright madness....

State on the ground in MARCH- Saddam had failed to comply with his last and final chance,...

Oh, garbage.

His RESISTANCE to the US invasion was sufficient reason, from the ceasefire terms of the Kuwait war, to invade.

Goebbels stands in awe.

You state this is hogwash, but provide no justification of your opinion. You may think it whatever you like- but if you want others to agree with you, you might want to at least outline the facts you believe support your view.

Fact: Eight of thirteen members of the U.N. Security Council refused to back the U.S. invasion.

Many governments (and far more people) were dead-set against any invasion.

Clinton never trotted out some manufactured baloney including fake anthrax vials for the U.N. Security Council. Many outside of government and even a numebr of governments expressed scepticism at the "Dogdy dossier", and the Pile'O'Crap that Powell gave at the U.N.

Broder's got his own row to hoe; he was one of the ones that got conned by the maladministration.

Prime example of Broder's hogwash: "The first -- and to my mind weakest -- instance is the claim that Bush took the nation to war on the basis of false intelligence about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." The intelligence was false. This is pretty much undisputed fact. And unless you're willing to admit that Dubya's a malevolent liar and schemer, pulling the wool over the eyes of the 'Merkun public whe he really wanted to go to war for other reasons (yaknow, like the reasons spelled out the the Project for a New American Century report that was the darling child of allthe neocons infesting his maladministration), then Dubya took the nation to war on the basis of false intelligence. Simple as that, Bruce. Broder claims there's no "clear evidence" that Dubya wilfully distorted the intelligence", but that's nonsense (or wilfull blindness on Broder's part). There's been more than one person reporting that the evidence was distorted, "worst-cased", stovepiped, ignored, and otherwise so horribly mangled (and in many cases reportedly under direction or under pressure from Cheney's office) that what came out was that black was conclusively determined to be white. You can't argue with what we know now, Bruce. There's no possible way to get things so totally wrong with an objective eye.

Now don't go accusing me of ignoring your "points". I didn't before, and I'm not doing it now. I just disagree with what you say. But now I want an answer:

Did Dubya lie when he said "He [Saddam] wouldn't let them [the inspectors] in"? Simple yes or no, Bruce. Let's se how honest you are.

Cheers,