Mudcat Café message #1563093 The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #78466   Message #1563093
Posted By: Bill D
13-Sep-05 - 07:40 PM
Thread Name: BS: why do we need religion
Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
well, Little Hawk...I see a bit more in your explanation about your personal, ultimate 'concerns'. If most of your interest is in all those concepts about conciousness and its functioning, of course you will both 'see' and phrase things differently than I might...but we still must debate and communicate 'as if' we follow the same set of constraints, since no matter how we view matter & reality, we are both trapped in it in similar ways.

That's why I pick and poke at some remarks. In your thoughts, you make a couple of statements that, by their nature, have debatable assumptions embedded in them:

"there are a great many things that cannot be proven or disproven, though they can certainly be experienced in one way or another."

This calls into question just what a 'thing' is, and what it means to be experienced without being 'proven'...and even how to deal with 'in one way or another'. We DO have experiences, both of obvious physical things like doors, and of not-so-obvious things like ideas and dreams. You treat some of these concepts as if it is given that they are independant of the body doing the experiencing. THAT is the great debate ...and the important point is not whether they ultimately are or are not, but whether the answer can be given and unquestioned.

"I will not be an objective phenomenon when I leave this body,"

same basic point...you **state** that there IS a separate 'you' that will 'leave the body'. There might be...I don't claim I can prove that there is not, but I certainly see no way to know this, and from my viewpoint, claims that "this is how it works" are at best, vague, and at worse, wishful thinking. I see the allure, I just don't see the basis. Sorry, but just explaining that it is 'not subject to standard "proof" does not validate it as true.
   If, as you say, you consider being 'in' a body prosaic and boring, it is nevertheless the case that while you are in it and subject to this awkward way of communicating with your fellow 'trappees', certain rules apply to all our situations, one of which is...we won't KNOW the answers about mind/body dichotomy until we die...(or leave this body, and there I am at a disadvantage...if I am right, I don't get to say "I told you so".....'taint fair, says I...I guess I compensate for this unfairness by excessive pedantry while I'm here...