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User Name Thread Name Subject Posted
GUEST,Observer This land is WHOSE land? (117* d) RE: This land is WHOSE land? 19 Jul 20


The point Joe is that the idea of "Manifest Destiny" was an American vision, first expressed 69 years after America's Declaration of Independence. The colonists in North America viewed themselves as Americans quite some time BEFORE 1776.

The land grabs [All of which occurred after the creation of the United States of America] were carried out in the name of the American Government by Americans - Their ancestry is irrelevant and of no significance whatsoever. By the way Joe how far back do you think you have to go to determine what your actual ancestry is [I have always considered myself to be British - turns out with regard to "ancestry" I am Scandinavian].

But to illustrate the different points of view between Americans and the British:

"To end the War of 1812 John Quincy Adams, Henry Clay and Albert Gallatin (former treasury secretary and a leading expert on Indians) and the other American diplomats negotiated the Treaty of Ghent in 1814 with Britain. They rejected the British plan to set up an Indian state in U.S. territory south of the Great Lakes. They explained the American policy toward acquisition of Indian lands:

The United States, while intending never to acquire lands from the Indians otherwise than peaceably, and with their free consent, are fully determined, in that manner, progressively, and in proportion as their growing population may require, to reclaim from the state of nature, and to bring into cultivation every portion of the territory contained within their acknowledged boundaries. In thus providing for the support of millions of civilized beings, they will not violate any dictate of justice or of humanity; for they will not only give to the few thousand savages scattered over that territory an ample equivalent for any right they may surrender, but will always leave them the possession of lands more than they can cultivate, and more than adequate to their subsistence, comfort, and enjoyment, by cultivation. If this be a spirit of aggrandizement, the undersigned are prepared to admit, in that sense, its existence; but they must deny that it affords the slightest proof of an intention not to respect the boundaries between them and European nations, or of a desire to encroach upon the territories of Great Britain ... They will not suppose that that Government will avow, as the basis of their policy towards the United States a system of arresting their natural growth within their own territories, for the sake of preserving a perpetual desert for savages."

A shocked Henry Goulburn, one of the British negotiators at Ghent, remarked, after coming to understand the American position on taking the Indians' land:

Till I came here, I had no idea of the fixed determination which there is in the heart of every American to extirpate the Indians and appropriate their territory.

Hope you noted the surname of the US Government's Indian Expert Joe - Albert Gallatin, or to give him his full name Abraham Alfonse Albert de Gallatin, born in Geneva who spoke French as his first language - how come he was there Joe? If as you say the elite were all of English Ancestry. That string of French trading posts I mentioned earlier Joe. Established to hem in British colonists and gain a monopoly for the French in the North American fur trade - those posts were established between 1660 and 1720 and ran from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico. The trading treaties signed between the French and the Indian Tribes are a matter of record.

As for ownership of the land plundered and grabbed - identify by name those of English Ancestry you say laid claim to it - You will be unable to do that as it was the US Federal Government who laid claim to and owned the land, not individuals within that Government.

Thought this bit also bears out what I originally said:

"In thus providing for the support of millions of civilized beings, they will not violate any dictate of justice or of humanity; for they will not only give to the few thousand savages scattered over that territory an ample equivalent for any right they may surrender, but will always leave them the possession of lands more than they can cultivate, and more than adequate to their subsistence, comfort, and enjoyment, by cultivation."

Well the American government really stuck to that part of the bargain didn't they? Chased off their land and shut up on reservations located on land that was useless and condemned to a life of poverty, overseen by a Government appointed Indian Agent and forced to be reliant on Government hand-outs.

The vision expressed as "Manifest Destiny" was 100% American - it had nothing whatsoever to do with English ancestry and everything to do with an America which in the mid to late 19th century made a virtue out of rapacious greed - own it.


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