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User Name Thread Name Subject Posted
GUEST,rarelamb BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots (154* d) RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots 11 Nov 05


"I'm not the kind of socialist who wants to shoot capitalists. So who is of the capitalist class and who is of the working class makes no difference to me. It is the system of economic organisation that we intend to transform into one that benefits all of humanity, the capitalist class which you flatter yourself with belonging to because you own a few shares is an irrelevance. Where do pensions come from? Where does the money that some workers use to buy shares come from? It is from wage labour. Pensions are deferred wages, that they are used in the finance market is irrelevant, though not when someone gambles it away. Capital, liquid or solid, is wealth used to produce more wealth. Most of the capital is owned by a least people, whilst most of the labour is done by most of the people."

You are correct that the majority of funds for 'markets' directly come from labor. I would point out that all investment/savings ultimately benefit people (and I use labor in the sense of anyone who works for money, though I suspect you exclude people in management). Your savings provide the funds for capitalizing companies. When you put money in corporate debt (whether on the open market or through financial intermediaries like banks) or equity, you are a capitalist. Savings must equal investment. I do not think this is 'irrelevant'.

"It is so typical that some think democracy can only apply to the state, the system by which we are governed and not governing ourselves. The idea that people can sit down discuss and debate how to produce and distribute goods and services is an anathema to capitalism: minority control of the means of production requires a minority making decisions. In capitalism the 'invisible hand of the market' sorts it out, who needs conscious planning? We have the potential feed, clothe, house and entertain the entire human population several times over yet millions are malnourished, poorly housed and miserable. This is what system of 'no profit, no production' and 'can't pay, can't have' means."

The problem with conscious planning is that the planners do not 'know what the market wants'. This pricing function is best left to the participants in that market lest you run into production and pricing problems the soviet union had when they used sears catalogues to set prices.

It is curius that you mention the 'invisible hand'. The actual quote is "every individual necessarily labors to render the annual revenue of society as great as he can. He generally neither intends to promote the public interest nor knows how he is promoting it. He intends only his own gain. He is in this as in many other cases led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was not part of his intention." Or something like that. What is important is that self interested individuals looking to make money by investing in business do in fact promote profit maximization in that firm. If I save money, invest in a company for the purpose to make money (so that I may retire), then I have a vested interest in making sure that firm makes as much money as possible.

The insurance company that depends on their investments to pay out life insurance, disability benefits etc. likewise depend on their investment in firms to be profit maximizers. The end result of all this profit maximizing is greater wealth for which people like me can retire.

And of course all of this capital creation has the benefit of enriching the society for which the 'individual' belongs. The rising tide so to speak.


"As for self-love, I believe I will be best off by co-operating with fellow humans to build a society where the whole point of work is to satisfy human needs rather than making a profit for the capital owners, and work is a pleasure not a struggle."

Who decides in this world of yours who produces what, in what quantity and at what price? Who is to benefit from these labors? Who is to labor and for how long? This line of thought leads inevitably to tyranny.

What is considered 'pleasure' and who is to determine it? What is a human need and who is to determine it? ........tyranny.

Capitalism is the triumph of the individual and the abhorance of tyranny.


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